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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Newly Discovered Hell Hole Cancer
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 10:43 AM
Well, the hole itself was repaired, but I was just able to excavate as seen below. Surrounding area is ice pick proof. What are the best "fixes" to be done while keeping the car together? It does not extend into the interior either and the side runners are very solid (had been replaced too).
Attached image(s)
Posted by: rjames Oct 28 2009, 11:43 AM
Well, the hole itself was repaired, but I was just able to excavate as seen below. Surrounding area is ice pick proof. What are the best "fixes" to be done while keeping the car together? It does not extend into the interior either and the side runners are very solid (had been replaced too).
Using a wirewheel or grinder, or whatever you weapon of choice is, take the areas down to bare metal and see what you have left to work with. Then fab replacement bits, weld 'em in and be done with it.
Additionally, how was the hell hole repiared? (post a pic or two) I would think that if someone went to the trouble of repairing the hell hole correctly, they would have repaired the spots in your photos as well.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 28 2009, 11:45 AM
Use your ice pick to see what else may be lurking around there too. Hopefully, thats it.
If you can't get to it with a wire wheel, use Metal Ready or some other rust dissolver and soak the blind side as best you can to clear the rot.
Zach
Posted by: Sleepin Oct 28 2009, 11:49 AM
I would check those fuel lines as well. You might consider finding a better filter.
Posted by: URY914 Oct 28 2009, 11:56 AM
I would check those fuel lines as well. You might consider finding a better filter.
Good point.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 28 2009, 12:07 PM
Well, the hole itself was repaired, but ...
I told you so just doesn't cut it ...
That hell hole "fix" on the top just looked too suspicious.
Time to drop the engine and do it right!
The good news is, all of the sheet-metal needed is available. How are your welding skills?
Andy
Posted by: jasons Oct 28 2009, 12:19 PM
Time to drop the engine and do it right!
Either leave it for the time being or drop the motor and do it right. I would bet there is more rust in there you can't access with the motor in. Also, I would investigate the PO's engine shelf repair you had in the other thread. I agree with Andy, its suspicious. I would be too scared to weld that close to an active fuel supply anyway.
In the 914 rustoration I'm working on, I've learned 1 thing.... Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 01:18 PM
The hell hole was patched...not with correct sheet metal but simply cut and welded pieces (like no hole for the drain funnel, etc.) twenty years ago. It's stri=ong buut has some surface rust that I'll take care of
Well, the hole itself was repaired, but I was just able to excavate as seen below. Surrounding area is ice pick proof. What are the best "fixes" to be done while keeping the car together? It does not extend into the interior either and the side runners are very solid (had been replaced too).
Using a wirewheel or grinder, or whatever you weapon of choice is, take the areas down to bare metal and see what you have left to work with. Then fab replacement bits, weld 'em in and be done with it.
Additionally, how was the hell hole repiared? (post a pic or two) I would think that if someone went to the trouble of repairing the hell hole correctly, they would have repaired the spots in your photos as well.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 01:20 PM
Redoing fuel lines, pump (relocating to front), filter and doing SS line through tunnel. Should I do the welding when all the fuel lines are out for safety purposes or cana decent welder work around the fuel lines?
I would check those fuel lines as well. You might consider finding a better filter.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 01:21 PM
I do not know how to weld. I guess I'll either take it somewhere or get one of those "welders on wheels" to come over.
Well, the hole itself was repaired, but ...
I told you so just doesn't cut it ...
That hell hole "fix" on the top just looked too suspicious.
Time to drop the engine and do it right!
The good news is, all of the sheet-metal needed is available. How are your welding skills?
AndyPosted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 01:58 PM
Guess what I mainly need is the right triangle that AA shows in their catalog for like $85. and a small patch on the forward hole?
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 28 2009, 02:13 PM
Guess what I mainly need is the right triangle that AA shows in their catalog for like $85. and a small patch on the forward hole?
No. That small triangle is not structural.
You have a huge gaping hole in your longitudinal. That is the backbone of your car!
Judging from your images, i bet if you move your passenger seat forward and look under the carpet behind the seat, you will find more rust where the floorpan meets the rear firewall and the side of the long.
Andy
Posted by: Cevan Oct 28 2009, 02:15 PM
And use the proper FI clamps on the fuel hose, not those things in the picture.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 02:26 PM
That would be #2 in my picture, right? Seems that #1 is normally a hole that got larger, right? When I remove my passenger seat there is no rust where the floor meets the firewall and the side of the long is solid. The PO replaced the longitudinals.
Guess what I mainly need is the right triangle that AA shows in their catalog for like $85. and a small patch on the forward hole?
No. That small triangle is not structural.
You have a huge gaping hole in your longitudinal. That is the backbone of your car!
Judging from your images, i bet if you move your passenger seat forward and look under the carpet behind the seat, you will find more rust where the floorpan meets the rear firewall and the side of the long.
AndyPosted by: SirAndy Oct 28 2009, 02:30 PM
The PO replaced the longitudinals.
Posted by: ghuff Oct 28 2009, 02:32 PM
Ken, time to start digging in more man..........
I have a MIG setup, that can do gas.
This is why i am thinking of drilling holes in the longs/caverns and using waxoyl on my car once it is complete, if the longs and etc were really replaced.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 28 2009, 02:36 PM
Just to be clear, i'm trying to help you here, not trying to bring you down.
I have seen this exact same cancer many, many times. I highly doubt we (you) have seen all of the rust there is.
At this point, i would not trust any of the PO's repairs.
Take off the rocker panels and carefully inspect the outer longs.
Poke the floor behind the seats. Don't just look at the painted tar paper. The rust will be underneath the tar.
Take off the PO's top hell hole cover to get a good look at the mess from above.
This is your chance to fix this right. Heck, you could even buy a welder and fix this yourself!
Andy
Posted by: cal44 Oct 28 2009, 03:43 PM
Matey.............has that car been down in Davey Jones locker? arrrrgg
Posted by: Drums66 Oct 28 2009, 04:15 PM
I know it's too late,but...you should'nt have picked it
the rust was holding hands, man!! 
Don't lose it Ken, follow the advice 
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 28 2009, 04:49 PM
Andy is probably right.
BUT
If you pull the rockers, be ready to find pristine outer longs. There are clamshell covers that have been for sale that could be put over bad rusty longs. Ideally, the rust is fixed before the clamshell is used. but that is not often the case.
I looked at a parts car in York that I could put my fist through the rust holes (in fact I did just that trying to talk the dealer down to proper parts car prices). But the longs looked pristine due to the new clamshells. On this car, you could actually see the rust going under the clamshell, but you had to lay down and know what to be looking for. dealer wanted solid driver money, so I walked.
Whatever you find is fixable. We are here to help. Some of us will even come over and help you fix it in person.
If you promise good beer, not cheep stuff. :-)
Posted by: ghuff Oct 28 2009, 05:04 PM
Andy is probably right.
BUT
If you pull the rockers, be ready to find pristine outer longs. There are clamshell covers that have been for sale that could be put over bad rusty longs. Ideally, the rust is fixed before the clamshell is used. but that is not often the case.
I looked at a parts car in York that I could put my fist through the rust holes (in fact I did just that trying to talk the dealer down to proper parts car prices). But the longs looked pristine due to the new clamshells. On this car, you could actually see the rust going under the clamshell, but you had to lay down and know what to be looking for. dealer wanted solid driver money, so I walked.
Whatever you find is fixable. We are here to help. Some of us will even come over and help you fix it in person.
If you promise good beer, not cheep stuff. :-)
Yes. Good beer.
Posted by: JazonJJordan Oct 28 2009, 05:11 PM
914bonfires bring many tears...
I do not know how to weld. I guess I'll either take it somewhere or get one of those "welders on wheels" to come over.
Well, the hole itself was repaired, but ...
I told you so just doesn't cut it ...
That hell hole "fix" on the top just looked too suspicious.
Time to drop the engine and do it right!
The good news is, all of the sheet-metal needed is available. How are your welding skills?
AndyPosted by: JazonJJordan Oct 28 2009, 05:40 PM
(-good man, real good advice from everyone-) Cancer digs deep, only bare metal is real. The skin will lie about what is underneath.
Our rust is very predictable; it follows a decay path building momentum or it is isolated and is easily proven.
Bad seals make many floors rot. That is an isolated cancer. But a PO that ignores one, ignores others...
The R hellhole is the traditional start- the collapse of the R console and shelf progress with the decay of the R long.
We know you have the first and the last signs; the middle is highly likely. Poor repair by PO that was incomplete makes this likely.
Your prize was incomplete yesterday but today you now know. Just fix it.
The work is not growing- that damage is done- stop further and get it back up to speed with simple repairs. Don't dispare a bit. No-one's rushing for cover- we can help you along. No problem- you just need metal. Got to do it right. -Jordan
Andy is probably right.
BUT
If you pull the rockers, be ready to find pristine outer longs. There are clamshell covers that have been for sale that could be put over bad rusty longs. Ideally, the rust is fixed before the clamshell is used. but that is not often the case.
I looked at a parts car in York that I could put my fist through the rust holes (in fact I did just that trying to talk the dealer down to proper parts car prices). But the longs looked pristine due to the new clamshells. On this car, you could actually see the rust going under the clamshell, but you had to lay down and know what to be looking for. dealer wanted solid driver money, so I walked.
Whatever you find is fixable. We are here to help. Some of us will even come over and help you fix it in person.
If you promise good beer, not cheep stuff. :-)
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 28 2009, 06:22 PM
I do not know how to weld. I guess I'll either take it somewhere or get one of those "welders on wheels" to come over.
Who did the PPI on the car?
Too bad you didn't come see us in CT before you took it home.
We could have found and fixed every problem you have encountered so far.
I would recommend against having a "welder on wheels" take care of this.
Look carefully for a place that has the necessary skills to do a proper job. Too many weld shops will talk big and do sh!t for you.
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 28 2009, 06:31 PM
BTW, we have the triangles,made in-house, at a much better price.
Posted by: ghuff Oct 28 2009, 06:41 PM
I do not know how to weld. I guess I'll either take it somewhere or get one of those "welders on wheels" to come over.
Who did the PPI on the car?
Too bad you didn't come see us in CT before you took it home.
We could have found and fixed every problem you have encountered so far.
I would recommend against having a "welder on wheels" take care of this.
Look carefully for a place that has the necessary skills to do a proper job. Too many weld shops will talk big and do sh!t for you.
This also.
Ken I can tell you from experience that with my flux mig we would do better than most body shops in the area........
You'd be lucky to get a bodyshop in our area to even use metal, most are glass and go.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 07:09 PM
Really...it's more the flash of the camera...doesn't look fuzzy or brown in person.
Matey.............has that car been down in Davey Jones locker? arrrrgg
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 07:16 PM
I'll start digging and poking more tomorrow. I appreciate and hear everything ya'll said. This is really something I'd rather pay somebody to do if it needs major surgery as I have neither the equipment or experience to weld. I'll report back tomorrow after further inspection.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 07:18 PM
Any beer you want! 
Andy is probably right.
BUT
If you pull the rockers, be ready to find pristine outer longs. There are clamshell covers that have been for sale that could be put over bad rusty longs. Ideally, the rust is fixed before the clamshell is used. but that is not often the case.
I looked at a parts car in York that I could put my fist through the rust holes (in fact I did just that trying to talk the dealer down to proper parts car prices). But the longs looked pristine due to the new clamshells. On this car, you could actually see the rust going under the clamshell, but you had to lay down and know what to be looking for. dealer wanted solid driver money, so I walked.
Whatever you find is fixable. We are here to help. Some of us will even come over and help you fix it in person.
If you promise good beer, not cheep stuff. :-)
Posted by: ghuff Oct 28 2009, 07:38 PM
If you pay someone else, take it to a reputable person on here like scottyb or tangerine up in CT.
I can't think of anyone in MD I would want touching my 914 with a welder besides myself.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 28 2009, 07:58 PM
Already did the CT / MD drive once...why not.
If you pay someone else, take it to a reputable person on here like scottyb or tangerine up in CT.
I can't think of anyone in MD I would want touching my 914 with a welder besides myself.
Posted by: ghuff Oct 28 2009, 08:47 PM
Already did the CT / MD drive once...why not.
If you pay someone else, take it to a reputable person on here like scottyb or tangerine up in CT.
I can't think of anyone in MD I would want touching my 914 with a welder besides myself.
I have seen a lot of work on many makes of cars from the local famous body shops and all of it leaves me shaking my head. There is always something half assed or crap, and I would not risk it with something this old and awesome.
THe stuff I see on here from tangerine and scottyb is in the same price range and MUCH better.
Plus im sure if we partially strip your car you can probably save a couple bucks, we can zip loc and organize everything for re-assembly.....
Have your folks of choice do the metal/paint work, and the simple stuff could be handled with a local 914 gathering or something?
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 28 2009, 09:36 PM
Your car looks a lot like this one did.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 28 2009, 09:37 PM
Find out where all the H.H. rust is. Clear it. Post up looking for locals. Bribe with food and beer and promise you have the parts ready to go.
My schedule is a bitch, but I can come up one day (maybe take a vacation day after Freshman Registration is over next month) and weld in patches if you do the grunt work before I get there. All I would ask is that the rust be cleared and the metal that needs to go in was on hand before I showed up. My welds are not very pretty, but they are strong, and I am working on the pretty part.
I'm pretty sure that there are some others that would offer the same.
Zach
Posted by: veltror Oct 29 2009, 05:10 AM
If you think yours was/is bad take a look at mine,
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 05:32 AM
Very sweet offer...thanks.
Find out where all the H.H. rust is. Clear it. Post up looking for locals. Bribe with food and beer and promise you have the parts ready to go.
My schedule is a bitch, but I can come up one day (maybe take a vacation day after Freshman Registration is over next month) and weld in patches if you do the grunt work before I get there. All I would ask is that the rust be cleared and the metal that needs to go in was on hand before I showed up. My welds are not very pretty, but they are strong, and I am working on the pretty part.
I'm pretty sure that there are some others that would offer the same.
Zach
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 05:35 AM
Damn...and doesn't even look like you braced /supported the thing before cutting half the car away. How'd you ever get it back together (correctly)?
If you think yours was/is bad take a look at mine,
Posted by: veltror Oct 29 2009, 10:59 AM
Err yes it was braced and supported....
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 11:32 AM
Guys...the car is as solid as can be (well...almost). The floor needs some POR15 but you can't drive an ice pick through the floors or longs with a freakin' hammer. It's obvious to me that the PPO, who has written to me, replaced the longs and the hell hole damge in the engine compartment, and never did the triangular corner of the Unibody below the hell hole. It "looked good" to me too until i started poking, so Im sure it was much better when he did the "restoration" in 1989. I'm convinced I just need some patch work on the actual horizontal area shown in my original shot. That being said...please (and I mean it) chime in.
Posted by: jasons Oct 29 2009, 11:46 AM
Your long does look good. Why did you say that one spot was soft in the pics above? You said the floor was solid at the firewall, but I can't see how its soft underneath and solid inside.
EDIT: Nevermind, I can see how that would happen after looking at Chris's pic above.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 29 2009, 11:52 AM
Guys...the car is as solid as can be (well...almost).
Just as i thought ...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 29 2009, 12:01 PM
Pic 2 looks like there was a repair at the rear of the long, where the black spray-on undercoat is.
Pic 3 shows a questionable repair done to the floor/inner long.It may be strong but certainly isn't faithful to the way the floor and long were originally assembled.
The firewall has two layers at the bottom 6". They are roughly one or two inches apart. The floor often rots between the two, from water that gets inside and can't get out.
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 29 2009, 12:02 PM
Sir Andy beat me to it. 
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 29 2009, 12:05 PM
Keep digging Ken!
Posted by: jasons Oct 29 2009, 12:12 PM
Just as i thought ...
Yeah, the long should fold the other direction. What I don't get is, I don't see the coincident repairs that usually occur with the repairs that were done. If that inner long was repaired, why does the outer long look OK? I would think if the inner long needed repair that bad, wouldn't the outside long be bad too?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 12:25 PM
I assume they were both done. Anyway...even though you guys wouldnt have done it the way it was done, I don't care about originality and it's way too strong and nice for me to go redoing it for my purposes. I'll keep poking underneath where I showed it was "soft". The car basically sat for 20 years in a garage after the longs and upper hell hole were repaired, so I'm also assuming that whatever wasn't taken care of simply rotted away even though the car was then out of the weather and wasn't getting any more water intrusion from above. I'm also assuming (please correct me) that the entire longs were replaced...inner and outer.
Just as i thought ...
Yeah, the long should fold the other direction. What I don't get is, I don't see the coincident repairs that usually occur with the repairs that were done. If that inner long was repaired, why does the outer long look OK? I would think if the inner long needed repair that bad, wouldn't the outside long be bad too?
Posted by: jasons Oct 29 2009, 12:36 PM
I don't know. The outter long looks original to me. Probably, it was repaired aft of the jack point. It seems to me with the extent of that inner repair you would see more evidence of an outter long repair. But, I'm beyond the edge of my expertise here.
FWIW I'm in the middle of hell hole/firewall repair myself.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 12:40 PM
Probably the "soft" area I showed in my first shot?
Pic 2 looks like there was a repair at the rear of the long, where the black spray-on undercoat is.
Pic 3 shows a questionable repair done to the floor/inner long.It may be strong but certainly isn't faithful to the way the floor and long were originally assembled.
The firewall has two layers at the bottom 6". They are roughly one or two inches apart. The floor often rots between the two, from water that gets inside and can't get out.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 12:42 PM
Nah...you thought I was gonna find nothing but cancer in there and need to get out my torch, gas, hatchet and wallet!
Guys...the car is as solid as can be (well...almost).
Just as i thought ...
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 29 2009, 12:46 PM
Nah...you thought I was gonna find nothing but cancer in there and need to get out my torch, gas, hatchet and wallet!
That was the other thought ...
Andy
Posted by: FourBlades Oct 29 2009, 12:51 PM
This thread is making me nostalgic about fixing rust holes...
I have so much better idea how to do it now, I can't wait to work on welding
up my next car.
John
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 12:55 PM
Same with these other guys. Otherwise somebody would have said, "ATTAKen...great find...nowhere near as bad as we thought or it could have been". 
This thread is making me nostalgic about fixing rust holes...
I have so much better idea how to do it now, I can't wait to work on welding
up my next car.
John
Posted by: rjames Oct 29 2009, 02:35 PM
Guys...the car is as solid as can be (well...almost).
Just as i thought ...
If you can, lift the rest of the carpet up there and the threshold piece and take another photo if you can. I'm curious to see where the top welds are on the inner long piece that was put in by the PO.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 02:58 PM
Love you, but not that much. 
Guys...the car is as solid as can be (well...almost).
Just as i thought ...
If you can, lift the rest of the carpet up there and the threshold piece and take another photo if you can. I'm curious to see where the top welds are on the inner long piece that was put in by the PO.
Posted by: rjames Oct 29 2009, 05:21 PM
Love you, but not that much.
Guys...the car is as solid as can be (well...almost).
Just as i thought ...
If you can, lift the rest of the carpet up there and the threshold piece and take another photo if you can. I'm curious to see where the top welds are on the inner long piece that was put in by the PO.
By threshold piece, I mean that strip of metal that keeps the carpet in place on the top of the long. It's held in by screws. I did not mean that you should cut into the long.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 06:56 PM
I know...don't even love you enough to undo the screws.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 06:59 PM
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open. 
Posted by: neil30076 Oct 29 2009, 07:09 PM
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open.
Ken, i hoped you were joking, but i see you are not - look on the bright side, you have a project for teh winter. Good luck, hang in there.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 07:15 PM
Nah...the car is wonderful...just wanted to see what kinda wood I could generate for Sir Andy and Chris. Bet they got excited for a post or two! 
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open.
Ken, i hoped you were joking, but i see you are not - look on the bright side, you have a project for teh winter. Good luck, hang in there.
Posted by: neil30076 Oct 29 2009, 07:23 PM
Nah...the car is wonderful...just wanted to see what kinda wood I could generate for Sir Andy and Chris. Bet they got excited for a post or two!
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open.
Ken, i hoped you were joking, but i see you are not - look on the bright side, you have a project for teh winter. Good luck, hang in there.
Luv ya, man, you make this whole site worth visiting
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 07:25 PM
Did seem kinda dry in here when I first showed up...almost like the folks in here had [u]real[/u] Porsches!
Posted by: neil30076 Oct 29 2009, 07:39 PM
Did seem kinda dry in here when I first showed up...almost like the folks in here had [u]real[/u] Porsches!
I get the same reception when i go to the real Porsche sites and post on my 928- which is a real Porsche, but it is a water cooled V8 - both 914 and 928 have another thing in common, folks like us who really care for them and fix them!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 07:45 PM
Love 928s...one of the best things Porsche ever did...a gorgeous Grand Touring car.
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 29 2009, 08:55 PM
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open.
You didn't fool me for a second. What you described here was totally out of line with what I believe the car's condition is.
The pics I posted earlier are of a beautiful car, owned by a forum member. The care is worth a lot of money, even more since the metal repairs were made.
Yours is nice, but not that special - since more extensive repairs were already required more than 20 years ago, and the PO didn't ensure that the highest quality work was done.
As soon as you made your post about the wheel spacers I knew what we were in for.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 09:03 PM
Wasn't trying to fool you...was being entertaining. You are a super genius when it comes to these things...wouldn't be able to fool you. My car is "nice, but not that special"? 
So is your family.
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open.
You didn't fool me for a second. What you described here was totally out of line with what I believe the car's condition is.
The pics I posted earlier are of a beautiful car, owned by a forum member. The care is worth a lot of money, even more since the metal repairs were made.
Yours is nice, but not that special - since more extensive repairs were already required more than 20 years ago, and the PO didn't ensure that the highest quality work was done.
As soon as you made your post about the wheel spacers I knew what we were in for.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 09:08 PM
Maybe you're not a "Super Genius". The spacers were done about three months ago when an eBay dealer took the 4 lug chrome reversed wheels off after buying the car strictly to resell, did the 5 lug conversion, and threw on those mismatched spacers to give the car its stance and clearance on a budget. The other work you're referring to was done in 1989.
"As soon as you made your post about the wheel spacers. I knew what we were in for" makes absolutely no sense at all. Still love you though.
Now I'm going to cry myself to sleep being jealous of that former members car that is worth a lot of money. I want a valuable car!!! 
Guess you guys were right. The seats were out so I stepped in to work on the dash and my foot went right through the floor. The entire floor pan caved in leaving a huge hole and the rest of the floor in between the tunnel and the long depressed a good 4-5" ! Now the doors won't even open.
You didn't fool me for a second. What you described here was totally out of line with what I believe the car's condition is.
The pics I posted earlier are of a beautiful car, owned by a forum member. The care is worth a lot of money, even more since the metal repairs were made.
Yours is nice, but not that special - since more extensive repairs were already required more than 20 years ago, and the PO didn't ensure that the highest quality work was done.
As soon as you made your post about the wheel spacers I knew what we were in for.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 29 2009, 09:15 PM
I want a valuable car!!!
I have one for sale ...
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 09:16 PM
"Not that special"? You're nutz. 
Just look at her! 
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 29 2009, 09:18 PM
No...you have a car that could be valuable one day. I have an ex wife like that. I got rid of her, like you're doing with the car.
I want a valuable car!!!
I have one for sale ...
Posted by: bandjoey Oct 29 2009, 09:21 PM
Heck...It's a beautiful car. Do what all non welders/body men do. Get angle iron and pop rivet it under the carpet! Strong as nails and keep it off the jackstands!
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 29 2009, 09:30 PM
I have an ex wife like that.
Me too. I gave both of them away for free!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 30 2009, 05:29 AM
Actually have two of them myself. With the first one, I got the Lotus and she got the house. The most recent one got about 100K from me, but it was well worth it.
I have an ex wife like that.
Me too. I gave both of them away for free!
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 30 2009, 10:08 AM
So is your family.
You know my family?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Oct 30 2009, 12:57 PM
No, but you're so "nice*", I'm betting they are too!
* just not very special
So is your family.
You know my family?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 12 2009, 12:26 PM
Update....I started clearing out the rust to where she's solid. The soft spot I showed in message 31 above was indeed the floor between the inner and outer firewalls. The rust does not extend above the floor level and looks to me like a patch could be fabricated without buying a whole floor section (circled area in the third photo below). Then I need somebody to weld in a triangle with the jacking doughnut. The car has all fuel related "stuff" removed, so it's ideal to do it now. I have a friend locally who is a professional welder and can come over to do the work. Suggestions, criticisms, advice...all welcome.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 12 2009, 12:32 PM
"Theirs" are $17.25 more but have a doughnut. I wanna doughnut! 
BTW, we have the triangles,made in-house, at a much better price.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 12 2009, 01:25 PM
Then I need somebody to weld in a triangle with the jacking doughnut.
Except, that's not a jacking doughnut ...
There's nothing structural to support the weight of the car on the backside of that doughnut. It was never meant to be used as a jacking point and it will deform if used in such a manner.
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
AndyPS: BTW: ETC: The same goes for the doughnut in the front.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 12 2009, 01:47 PM
Hmmmmm...on the Tangerine Racing site, they call them "Jacking doughnuts" and those guys are geniuses !
Then I need somebody to weld in a triangle with the jacking doughnut.
Except, that's not a jacking doughnut ...
There's nothing structural to support the weight of the car on the backside of that doughnut. It was never meant to be used as a jacking point and it will deform if used in such a manner.
AndyPS: BTW: ETC: The same goes for the doughnut in the front.
Posted by: Spoke Nov 12 2009, 01:56 PM
About the triangles, are they structural or protective? Mine is off right now as I finish up the same repairs as Ken. I was debating about putting a triangle back on. What is the purpose of the triangle?
Ken,
My advice is to save the money paying someone to weld these holes up and buy a welder. I didn't know how to weld when I got mine. I watched a video on MIG welding, talked to several people who know how to weld, and practiced a lot. Now instead of totally sucking at welding, I now am just ok at it.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 12 2009, 02:07 PM
About the triangles, are they structural or protective? Mine is off right now as I finish up the same repairs as Ken. I was debating about putting a triangle back on. What is the purpose of the triangle?
As always, the search is your friend ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=63834
Andy
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 12 2009, 02:15 PM
So, they were used to support the weight of the car when it was "airborne".
About the triangles, are they structural or protective? Mine is off right now as I finish up the same repairs as Ken. I was debating about putting a triangle back on. What is the purpose of the triangle?
As always, the search is your friend ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=63834
AndyPosted by: SirAndy Nov 12 2009, 02:47 PM
So, they were used to support the weight of the car when it was "airborne".
Correct. Cars not fully assembled yet, load spread equally between all 4 corners.
If you think buckled floor-pans look hot, go ahead and use them as "jacking doughnuts" ...
Andy
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 12 2009, 03:35 PM
Already been doing that and the right rear one is pretty shot (but it was rusty already). Never buckled the floor though...don't think the rear ones are connected, are they? Anyway, anal retentive person that I am, gotta replace it with a triangle that has a doughnut...something about symmetry.
How do you feel about the pieces folks sell that fit into the jacking points and allow you to use a floor jack with them?
So, they were used to support the weight of the car when it was "airborne".
Correct. Cars not fully assembled yet, load spread equally between all 4 corners.
If you think buckled floor-pans look hot, go ahead and use them as "jacking doughnuts" ...
AndyPosted by: SirAndy Nov 12 2009, 05:32 PM
How do you feel about the pieces folks sell that fit into the jacking points and allow you to use a floor jack with them?
I use them all the time. Works great. As long as your original jack posts are solid.
Andy
Posted by: crash914 Nov 12 2009, 05:57 PM
Ken, you can always swing by and see the triangles that I replaced on my car, the rockers are removed and there is full access...you can even use my welder if you want....
not a hard repair. I have a sheet of metal ready to bent to shape if you want to patch...herb
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 12 2009, 07:17 PM
Herb...I really appreciate that, but me using your welder would be like me letting the five year old next door use my Harley. I have never welded. I'd love to learn though. In fact, if anybody in the Bawlmer area is doing anything "heavy" like rebuilding a tranny or engine...welding...I'd love to spectate.
I'm going to order a triangle (wish Chris' had dunkin donuts on them) and let my buddy Lawrence weld them in along with a patch for the floor area between the firewall walls next to that area. I wanna get this done before I put the fuel lines back in for obvious reasons. I assume it's not a good idea to weld back there with fuel lines in.
Ken, you can always swing by and see the triangles that I replaced on my car, the rockers are removed and there is full access...you can even use my welder if you want....
not a hard repair. I have a sheet of metal ready to bent to shape if you want to patch...herb
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 09:03 AM
What do think would be a reasonable range of fee for a welder to make a house call and weld in the triangle and patch the bottom of the firewall with some steel? Just a range...low/high.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 11:42 AM
Oh man...bought a 4 1/2" Ryobi Angle Grinder...what a blast! I could get carried away here and reduce my car to HO scale! I need a really rusty 914 (any of them around) and an education in welding. Cleaned up my "soft spot" and did the POR 15 inside the area. Just gotta find me a triangle with doughnut. PP no lonnger carries them, saying that RD is just to hard to do business with. They gave me the number there as well as Stoddards. We'll see. MIght have to go with Chris Foley's "No Doughnut" one.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 11:49 AM
Got one (AA was down to only 180 in stock). On the road to recovery.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2009, 12:34 PM
Got one (AA was down to only 180 in stock). On the road to recovery.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Nov 13 2009, 06:32 PM
I am usually off the Friday after Turkey Day.
IF I can find a baby sitter for my toddler and Evil ain't coming down to work on the bus, I can throw the welder in the car and swing down.
Zach
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 06:45 PM
If I can wait that long, I'll let you know...what a great offer.
I am usually off the Friday after Turkey Day.
IF I can find a baby sitter for my toddler and Evil ain't coming down to work on the bus, I can throw the welder in the car and swing down.
Zach
Posted by: OU8AVW Nov 13 2009, 06:59 PM
Keep me posted you guys. I would be hip to getting some pointers on the welding too. I can bring a 6 pack (Sierra Porter ok?)
Mike
Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 13 2009, 09:03 PM
I'm sure glad you found one in stock at AA with a donut Ken.
It looks like your car has a perfectly good donut that could have been re-used though.
Ours have holes pre-punched for plug welding onto the chassis, even where the donut goes - same places the factory welded them. The donut should be welded on after the triangle is installed.
BTW, my price includes shipping.
Since Sir Andy's assembly line exposee thread proves the donuts are there to support the car it makes perfect sense to use them as jackstand locations. Hence the nickname "jacking donut". The rears especially are plenty strong to support the car, at least when the metal is healthy.
There are two problems using the rear donuts to lift the car with a floor jack: it twists the chassis, and you can't put a jackstand there when a floor jack is already there.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 09:50 PM
I'm sure glad you found one in stock at AA with a donut Ken.
It looks like your car has a perfectly good donut that could have been re-used though.
Ours have holes pre-punched for plug welding onto the chassis, even where the donut goes - same places the factory welded them. The donut should be welded on after the triangle is installed.
BTW, my price includes shipping.
Since Sir Andy's assembly line exposee thread proves the donuts are there to support the car it makes perfect sense to use them as jackstand locations. Hence the nickname "jacking donut". The rears especially are plenty strong to support the car, at least when the metal is healthy.
There are two problems using the rear donuts to lift the car with a floor jack: it twists the chassis, and you can't put a jackstand there when a floor jack is already there.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 09:51 PM
I concur. I've been jacking using either the tail end of the engine or the engine support bar. Zat kosher?
I'm sure glad you found one in stock at AA with a donut Ken.
It looks like your car has a perfectly good donut that could have been re-used though.
Ours have holes pre-punched for plug welding onto the chassis, even where the donut goes - same places the factory welded them. The donut should be welded on after the triangle is installed.
BTW, my price includes shipping.
Since Sir Andy's assembly line exposee thread proves the donuts are there to support the car it makes perfect sense to use them as jackstand locations. Hence the nickname "jacking donut". The rears especially are plenty strong to support the car, at least when the metal is healthy.
There are two problems using the rear donuts to lift the car with a floor jack: it twists the chassis, and you can't put a jackstand there when a floor jack is already there.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2009, 09:56 PM
I concur. I've been jacking using either the tail end of the engine or the engine support bar. Zat kosher?
No on the engine jacking, yes on the mount bar if you have a side-shifter.
Using the engine will destroy your rubber engine mounts. Same goes for the mount bar on a tail-shifter car.
Andy
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 13 2009, 10:44 PM
Mine has been converted to a side shifter, so I'll stick to the mount bar.
I concur. I've been jacking using either the tail end of the engine or the engine support bar. Zat kosher?
No on the engine jacking, yes on the mount bar if you have a side-shifter.
Using the engine will destroy your rubber engine mounts. Same goes for the mount bar on a tail-shifter car.
AndyPosted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 17 2009, 11:25 AM
Well...almost ready for welding. The section labeled "A" (bottom between firewall dual walls), has been painted with POR15 on what was just surface rust. Section "B" hasn'r been dealt with inside yet. The second shot, in case there are other "newbies" looking in show where the triangle will go. I didn't realize at first how insignificant and unstructural the actual triangle is relative to the surrounding and attached "meat" of the unibody.
Posted by: strawman Nov 18 2009, 01:04 AM
Hi Ken,
I'm not sure that I agree that the triangle is unsubstantial. I've had to make extensive repairs to my car in that area, and I believe that the triangle ties in the long & firewall. I'm not an engineer, but I triangulation is your friend from a structural standpoint...
Geoff
Posted by: Hammy Nov 18 2009, 04:48 AM
Well...almost ready for welding. The section labeled "A" (bottom between firewall dual walls), has been painted with POR15 on what was just surface rust. Section "B" hasn'r been dealt with inside yet. The second shot, in case there are other "newbies" looking in show where the triangle will go. I didn't realize at first how insignificant and unstructural the actual triangle is relative to the surrounding and attached "meat" of the unibody.
Are you treating with Metal Ready before painting (POR15)?
Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 18 2009, 05:10 AM
Hi Ken,
I'm not sure that I agree that the triangle is unsubstantial. I've had to make extensive repairs to my car in that area, and I believe that the triangle ties in the long & firewall. I'm not an engineer, but I triangulation is your friend from a structural standpoint...
Geoff
Yep!
Don't underestimate the value of gussets to eliminate flexing at stress points that would crack over time.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 18 2009, 05:52 AM
Yes.
Well...almost ready for welding. The section labeled "A" (bottom between firewall dual walls), has been painted with POR15 on what was just surface rust. Section "B" hasn'r been dealt with inside yet. The second shot, in case there are other "newbies" looking in show where the triangle will go. I didn't realize at first how insignificant and unstructural the actual triangle is relative to the surrounding and attached "meat" of the unibody.
Are you treating with Metal Ready before painting (POR15)?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 19 2009, 08:57 PM
After I patch section "B" , how do I protect the inside of that section?
Well...almost ready for welding. The section labeled "A" (bottom between firewall dual walls), has been painted with POR15 on what was just surface rust. Section "B" hasn'r been dealt with inside yet. The second shot, in case there are other "newbies" looking in show where the triangle will go. I didn't realize at first how insignificant and unstructural the actual triangle is relative to the surrounding and attached "meat" of the unibody.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Dec 5 2009, 11:28 AM
Repairs completed...now I can finish up my fuel line relocation and drive again.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Dec 5 2009, 11:28 AM
Last shot:
Posted by: charliew Dec 5 2009, 12:26 PM
The floor pan repair would have looked much better if it had been on the inside of the lip and it would have shed water better. Be sure and metal prep the welds and clean them really well and epoxy prime them, a brush will work ok, and then seal them really well and more epoxy primer or you will be doing it again. Repairs don't need to look like they were just slapped on top of old metal.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Dec 5 2009, 12:46 PM
"Function Before Form". I don't weld so I was at the mercy of somebody else. NO offense, and I appreciate the feedback, but I really don't care how good it looks...the car is for driving and making me smile, not concours. Not a DD so unless I miscalculate the weather, she will never be shedding water again. How about Metal Prep and POR15? What would you seal the seams with? One person said Bondo, but me thinks not. Seam sealer?
The floor pan repair would have looked much better if it had been on the inside of the lip and it would have shed water better. Be sure and metal prep the welds and clean them really well and epoxy prime them, a brush will work ok, and then seal them really well and more epoxy primer or you will be doing it again. Repairs don't need to look like they were just slapped on top of old metal.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Dec 5 2009, 12:49 PM
Took 40 years in all kinds of weather to get to were she was. Now she's in a heated, dry garage and will not go out in rain or snow. I'm 57 so I'm betting I'll never have to do it again!
The floor pan repair would have looked much better if it had been on the inside of the lip and it would have shed water better. Be sure and metal prep the welds and clean them really well and epoxy prime them, a brush will work ok, and then seal them really well and more epoxy primer or you will be doing it again. Repairs don't need to look like they were just slapped on top of old metal.
Posted by: charliew Dec 5 2009, 01:50 PM
Damn I've got no idea how to quote and change color in the quote so you are way ahead of me. I'm pretty sure someone else will want your car after you are through with it and it will probably look really good, it's just that to me the little details are what really makes a nice car. I'm 65 and hope most things I do will outlast me but unless they end up in the lake someone else will get them and maybe they won't have to do what I've done over. I have actually needed to do some things on the same cars more than once (usually body work) and I really hate it. I have kept most of my cars a long time.
I like dp 40,90,70 but I think now there might be better epoxy primers since ppg took the lead out. I have used por15 a lot and have decided it's ok on suspension parts but not for floorboards or top coating anything serious. I did a jeep pickup under the wheelwells and then undercoated them and all the undercoat has come loose. Also I did the replaced floors and the bedliner has just come off of over the por15. I did the innerfender front fenders inside and out and the rad support front and back and used the tiecoat blue primer restomotive reccommended over it then top coated and that has held up ok. The cost was too much for the application. Good epoxy primer seems to me to be the best. It seals better and sticks better than anything I have found sofar. I even used it (dp90) to paint the aluminum floor threshold trim after it was beadblasted and it hasn't worn through or chipped yet from several years of climbing in and out with muddy boots.
Posted by: Racer Chris Dec 5 2009, 04:24 PM
Why was the triangle put on before the patches? It just looks so wrong! 
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Dec 5 2009, 04:53 PM
Patched the long first (of course). Then did the triangle , then patched the firewall hole. Unless I run over some "too knowledgeable" 914 nut, nobody will ever see it.
Why was the triangle put on before the patches? It just looks so wrong!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Dec 5 2009, 04:54 PM
And remember...the damn car is "Not so special" anyway.
Why was the triangle put on before the patches? It just looks so wrong!
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