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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ HELP. trouble starting 72 1.7L
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 17 2009, 10:30 PM
ok so i installed my tangerine racing tunnel and engine compartment lines no problem there, installed a 34R Optima Red-Top, a little big but oh well, went to turn it over, wouldnt turn over. i looked and coming off of the coil is a green wire attached to nothing, i think its a ground. where does this thing go.
any ideas on getting it started and where that ground needs to go. i would figure the engine case but i tried holding it there and pulled out a spark plug and hooked back to the wire to see if it would start and got nothing, i then grounded it to a bolt connecting the tin cover (i think?) to the head and the continuity tester said the circuit was ok so im guessing something has to be wrong with the ignition system, either the coil or distributor, which i THINK is newer and uses the magnetic thing to adjust dwell, which i loosly understand the concept of. also, could it just be the spark plug? it didnt look fouled or anything but i couldnt see a visable spark when having someone try to start the car and it wouldnt gap to the engine case either, so idk whats up
im only 18 and a senior in high school so a lot of this is new to me, ive read about it in magazines but never this deep, nor got my hands dirty (i have now! 
)
i just wanna see the damn thing run, for only having 47,259 miles on the clock it shouldnt be too big of a deal to fix.
i included a picture of what it looked like with just a basic clean too, no detailing or anything, not bad for being 38 (i think?) years old!)
i trust the ppl on this site too, so if anybody want my phone number just shoot me a pm and id be more than happy to discuss it on the phone.
THANKS IN ADVANCE.
note: the green wire in the one pic is the one i grounded. it was just sticking up like in the picture before i grounded it
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 17 2009, 10:34 PM
edit: forgive my god awful grammar there, i swear i am literate 
Posted by: 914_teener Nov 17 2009, 10:35 PM
I am sure Rich will chime in here but..... Starter won't turn or won't start.... two different things.... need more info to help 
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 17 2009, 10:42 PM
good, i need all the help i can, and im not stubborn and welcome the help too, im curious to learn lol. and im pretty sure the starter works, it cranks but wont turn over and start is the best way to explain it
Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 18 2009, 01:12 AM
Trace that green wire. I'm thinking that it goes to the distributor. If so, it's the "signal" from the points to trigger the coil to make a spark. It should get plugged in to the (-) terminal on the coil.
The other green wire in the area has a red stripe, and is for the oil pressure warning light. That wire just goes into the engine harness.
--DD
Posted by: silverteener Nov 18 2009, 10:12 AM
You've got to be kidding me! another teener in my town! 
And I have a 72 1.7 but mine is a much faster color, Silver! I can take a look tonight when I get home.
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 12:24 PM
You've got to be kidding me! another teener in my town!
And I have a 72 1.7 but mine is a much faster color, Silver! I can take a look tonight when I get home.NO FREAKIN WAY! dude thats crazy where do you live in east mo i have relatives over there!!! sounds good to me.
Trace that green wire. I'm thinking that it goes to the distributor. If so, it's the "signal" from the points to trigger the coil to make a spark. It should get plugged in to the (-) terminal on the coil.
The other green wire in the area has a red stripe, and is for the oil pressure warning light. That wire just goes into the engine harness.
--DD
and that wire is already connected to the negetive lead on the coil, so what you are saying is it goes back to the distributor? i though it was a ground of somesort
Posted by: r_towle Nov 18 2009, 04:59 PM
Hi,
In the original ignition system the lead goes from the ignition points in the distributor to the negative side of the coil. Its a green wire.
Typically it also has a condensor as part of the circuit.
Now, if you are using a petronix or crane optical sensor in the distributor, you may need to wire this differently of the sensor may become damaged...if its not already from messing with it.
Open up the distributor cover and look either post a picture of the insides, or tell us what make of sensor you have.
From there you will need a wiring diagram (on the vendor wed site) of how to properly hook up the optical sensor.
You can verify that its working with a timing light just to see if you have a spark on any wire..
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 06:03 PM
Hi,
In the original ignition system the lead goes from the ignition points in the distributor to the negative side of the coil. Its a green wire.
Typically it also has a condensor as part of the circuit.
Now, if you are using a petronix or crane optical sensor in the distributor, you may need to wire this differently of the sensor may become damaged...if its not already from messing with it.
Open up the distributor cover and look either post a picture of the insides, or tell us what make of sensor you have.
From there you will need a wiring diagram (on the vendor wed site) of how to properly hook up the optical sensor.
You can verify that its working with a timing light just to see if you have a spark on any wire..
Rich
so dont hook up the green wire yet?
Posted by: r_towle Nov 18 2009, 06:33 PM
take the distributor cover off.
take a pic of the insides of the distributor and post it here.
OR
If you see a name on the optical sensor (if you have one) go look on their web site for wiring instructions.
If you wire an optical sensor wrong, it will immediately die.....for good.
If you have points, its simple to wire them up.
RIch
Posted by: 914_teener Nov 18 2009, 07:16 PM
take the distributor cover off.
take a pic of the insides of the distributor and post it here.
OR
If you see a name on the optical sensor (if you have one) go look on their web site for wiring instructions.
If you wire an optical sensor wrong, it will immediately die.....for good.
If you have points, its simple to wire them up.
RIch
Hmmm... I can see what you see Rich? No ECU in the stock location?
So what ignition is he running....?
Posted by: r_towle Nov 18 2009, 07:28 PM
good question...I did not see that.
I wasnt looking either...nice spot.
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 07:37 PM
take the distributor cover off.
take a pic of the insides of the distributor and post it here.
OR
If you see a name on the optical sensor (if you have one) go look on their web site for wiring instructions.
If you wire an optical sensor wrong, it will immediately die.....for good.
If you have points, its simple to wire them up.
RIch
will do
Posted by: silverteener Nov 18 2009, 08:08 PM
I just looked at mine and I have no green wire on the coil. I have petronix in mine though. no points or condenser. The green wire should not be a ground. did it start before? What have you done to it since then?
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 08:16 PM
ok i took the distributor cap of and its the kind that has the four points i think...the points are on top of the distributor cap right? they arnt visable from the outside but if you look inside the on the top there are four points, if that helps, they are copper i believe? could be wrong...direct me from here.
what other things should i check btw if its not running? ill take a video of the car engine bay when i try the motor tries to turn over once i get eveything back together
im starting to get pissed off....all it was supposed to need to fix the fuel leak, which has been done
Posted by: Socalandy Nov 18 2009, 08:17 PM
from the distrib. to the coil. In your first photo I see the crimped connector and look like it would drop right on the coil as seen in my picture.
This is before I did my resto, Stock 1.8 FI setup and I have electronic now and the green wire is no longer present.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 08:21 PM
I just looked at mine and I have no green wire on the coil. I have petronix in mine though. no points or condenser. The green wire should not be a ground. did it start before? What have you done to it since then?
sorry for the double post here but its a really big gauge wire that is attatched to where the coil mounts to the engine case, the other green wire is there, next to the green and red wire where it belongs.
i just wanna get the damn thing to start, i bought it like this and havent gotten a chance to even hear the thing run, let alone drive it
Posted by: silverteener Nov 18 2009, 08:53 PM
might be a stupid question but are you getting fuel? do you hear the fuel pump run when you turn the key on?
Posted by: Cire Nov 18 2009, 08:59 PM
might be a stupid question but are you getting fuel? do you hear the fuel pump run when you turn the key on?
Did we pull a spark plug, leave it connected to the wire, ground the tip of it and see if we are getting a spark that far?
Eric
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 09:42 PM
i need to check to see if im getting fuel, should i listen to for the pump when the ignition if turned on or when you try to turn it over? and what sort of a noise should i be looking for.
and no i will as soon as my little brother can come outside and turn it over while i check to see if the spark jumps. if it doesnt what should i do, i have a feeling it wont work lol.
im going to video the motor when i try to turn it over and post it up here so i can get the best diagnosis
Posted by: r_towle Nov 18 2009, 10:10 PM
It looks like you have points.
It also appears that you have a condensor on the left side of the distributor like its supposed to be.
I also see a green wire coming up to the negative side of the coil like its supposed to be.
So, take a few pics from farther out so we can see what fuel system you have and please try to take a picture of the computer (supposed to be between the battery and the firewall...)
Need those pics to help you with any fuel issues.
Do you have a timing light?
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 18 2009, 11:36 PM
It looks like you have points.
It also appears that you have a condensor on the left side of the distributor like its supposed to be.
I also see a green wire coming up to the negative side of the coil like its supposed to be.
So, take a few pics from farther out so we can see what fuel system you have and please try to take a picture of the computer (supposed to be between the battery and the firewall...)
Need those pics to help you with any fuel issues.
Do you have a timing light?
Rich
take photos of the lines and and pump? that can be done. and not at the moment but i have acess to one i think lol
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 19 2009, 12:01 PM
bump
i should probably include that the car has not been driven in five years. ill take pics of the lines and pump today
Posted by: r_towle Nov 19 2009, 05:35 PM
We need pics of the whole engine bay...no more closeups.
Take it from both directions so we can see what fuel system you have.
Rich
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 19 2009, 06:31 PM
Guys...I'm low (very low) on the expert pole here, but if he redid the fuel lines, why are we suspecting electrical? The green wire? Could be anything a PO changed , removed...
ok i took the distributor cap of and its the kind that has the four points i think...the points are on top of the distributor cap right? they arnt visable from the outside but if you look inside the on the top there are four points, if that helps, they are copper i believe? could be wrong...direct me from here.
what other things should i check btw if its not running? ill take a video of the car engine bay when i try the motor tries to turn over once i get eveything back together
im starting to get pissed off....all it was supposed to need to fix the fuel leak, which has been done
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 19 2009, 07:24 PM
We need pics of the whole engine bay...no more closeups.
Take it from both directions so we can see what fuel system you have.
Rich
ill take some high resolution photos of my engine bay right after i post this.
any other things i should conside trying? like i said it has not been started in five years...
ill take a pic of the fuel pump too.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 19 2009, 07:39 PM
Never mind...missed that part.
We need pics of the whole engine bay...no more closeups.
Take it from both directions so we can see what fuel system you have.
Rich
ill take some high resolution photos of my engine bay right after i post this.
any other things i should conside trying? like i said it has not been started in five years...
ill take a pic of the fuel pump too.
Posted by: r_towle Nov 19 2009, 09:01 PM
We just need to do a few things.
One, you need to learn how to diagnose...that requires patience and some simple steps.
Lets make sure all the parts are there...If you have EFI...I dont see the computer..
Lets make sure you are not just spinning your wheels here.
Post the pics...we will get it going.
Rich
Posted by: silverteener Nov 19 2009, 09:22 PM
I'm going to see him tomorrow night. I'm no expert on these but I've had enough problems on my own I should be able to get him in the right direction. I'm going to check and make sure the fuel pump is working first and see if we have fuel at the injectors, then we'll see if we have spark. What do you guys think about it sitting for 5 years. I know I put some oil in the cylinders when I tried starting mine after 9 years of sitting. Hopefully it has been cranked over too much. Should be interesting tomorrow. I have only seen 1 other teener around here and only saw it once.
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 19 2009, 10:09 PM
I'm going to see him tomorrow night. I'm no expert on these but I've had enough problems on my own I should be able to get him in the right direction. I'm going to check and make sure the fuel pump is working first and see if we have fuel at the injectors, then we'll see if we have spark. What do you guys think about it sitting for 5 years. I know I put some oil in the cylinders when I tried starting mine after 9 years of sitting. Hopefully it has been cranked over too much. Should be interesting tomorrow. I have only seen 1 other teener around here and only saw it once.
i disconnected the fuel lines after the pump and they were both bone dry, so something is wrong with the pump, it doesnt make any sound either, and i will leave one plug out to test for spark tomorrow. i took some good pics tonight of the engine bay and fuel pump and will post them when im done writing my english paper.
call me tomorrow or PM about what time you wanna come over
Posted by: silverteener Nov 19 2009, 10:19 PM
don't worry about spark right now. it does no good if there is no fuel. Don't turn it over anymore til we can see what you have. I'll probably be over around 7. Pm me your address. see you tomorrow.
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 19 2009, 10:29 PM
don't worry about spark right now. it does no good if there is no fuel. Don't turn it over anymore til we can see what you have. I'll probably be over around 7. Pm me your address. see you tomorrow.
sounds good man
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 19 2009, 11:31 PM
ok here are picture of the engine bay and fuel pump
EDIT, they werent good, ill take some tomorrow morning
time for a 
, this damn car not running isnt helping me quit 
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 20 2009, 07:18 AM
ok so i woke up this morning and walked out to the garage to see a good amount of oil and gas had leaked onto the floor from the fuel pump area.
it was mostly gas.
anyideas?
Posted by: silverteener Nov 20 2009, 08:53 AM
did you reconnect the lines to the fuel pump?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 20 2009, 09:07 AM
Maybe I missed this part, but...did you clean out the tank and add fresh fuel? If not, that crap on the floor isn't even gas any more...more like varnish. Probably won't start the car, and might even keep it from starting until you rebuild the carbs. What did you do with the fuel filter(s)?
Posted by: Gint Nov 20 2009, 09:11 AM
I'd disconnect the fuel pump and get it out where you can work on it safely. Put new hoses on it. Put the suction end in a can of fresh gas (not the crap in the 914's fuel tank), and the output(s) in back into the same tank. Run a couple of wires from the hot and ground of a 12v battery and test it. It's probably dried up.
Oh, and be careful not to blow yourself up!
Posted by: 914_teener Nov 20 2009, 11:32 AM
We just need to do a few things.
One, you need to learn how to diagnose...that requires patience and some simple steps.
Lets make sure all the parts are there...If you have EFI...I dont see the computer..
Lets make sure you are not just spinning your wheels here.
Post the pics...we will get it going.
Rich
I would follow this advice.....otherwise you might be chasing your tail. Ya gotta learn too!
Post the pics so that everyone knows what is there and what you have. Otherwise this thread may confuse you more..... and kind of pointless (pun intended). I would listen to Rich.
Rob
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 20 2009, 12:40 PM
tank isnt clean but its not that rusty and there is new fuel in it.
more instructions testing the pump would be great
and of course i hooked the lines up!!! lol they have been fine for the last like five days idk whats wrong with the fuel pump but shes coming off tonight
Posted by: silverteener Nov 20 2009, 12:55 PM
if you take that pump off you better have a bucket to catch all the fuel. but better yet, just wait til I get there.
Posted by: r_towle Nov 20 2009, 02:37 PM
tank isnt clean but its not that rusty and there is new fuel in it.
more instructions testing the pump would be great
and of course i hooked the lines up!!! lol they have been fine for the last like five days idk whats wrong with the fuel pump but shes coming off tonight
Ok,
What is your fuel delivery system?
Do you have carbs or fuel injection?
If you have fuel injection, which style do you have? Djet or Ljet.
All three fuel delivery systems have different methods for testing the fuel pump that are simple.
see why it will be alot easier if we know what you running?
If you dont know, post a pic (see why I asked) and we can tell you what you have.
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 20 2009, 03:08 PM
tank isnt clean but its not that rusty and there is new fuel in it.
more instructions testing the pump would be great
and of course i hooked the lines up!!! lol they have been fine for the last like five days idk whats wrong with the fuel pump but shes coming off tonight
Ok,
What is your fuel delivery system?
Do you have carbs or fuel injection?
If you have fuel injection, which style do you have? Djet or Ljet.
All three fuel delivery systems have different methods for testing the fuel pump that are simple.
see why it will be alot easier if we know what you running?
If you dont know, post a pic (see why I asked) and we can tell you what you have.
Rich
ill wait for you to some over, but i only have two jackstands so if you have two more to bring over it would prob work better for jacking up the rear. accessing the fuel pump is a pita w/ the stock jack and a jack stand...
and its injected, im 99% sure i have DJet, its a 1.7L and im pretty sure it has DJet, i havent even heard of LJet, was that on the 1.8Ls? anyway hopefully some of this crap will get figured out tonight
and im a bit damned as to why its STILL dripping fuel from the fuel pump area
Posted by: silverteener Nov 20 2009, 11:22 PM
So I went over to Will's house tonight and he does have a nice looking car for the most part. It is a d-jet. The ecu is just sitting in the engine bay so it will need to be mounted. He is missing the bar that goes thru it. The ground for the battery is connected to the engine because the bolt on the sheetmetal is mostly broken off. I hadn't seen that before so I thought that was kind of interesting. The fuel pump is not working. I didn't have my multimeter to see if it was getting power so Will was going to pick one up and check it out. If there is power at the pump then I would think the pump is bad. It looks like the pump was also leaking. I have another pump to try if there is power there. Will also said he was going to take the tank out and have it cleaned and coated. There was some crap in there so I suggested he refresh the rest of the fuel lines. Any luck we'll have it going in no time 
Posted by: 914_teener Nov 21 2009, 01:18 AM
So I went over to Will's house tonight and he does have a nice looking car for the most part. It is a d-jet. The ecu is just sitting in the engine bay so it will need to be mounted. He is missing the bar that goes thru it. The ground for the battery is connected to the engine because the bolt on the sheetmetal is mostly broken off. I hadn't seen that before so I thought that was kind of interesting. The fuel pump is not working. I didn't have my multimeter to see if it was getting power so Will was going to pick one up and check it out. If there is power at the pump then I would think the pump is bad. It looks like the pump was also leaking. I have another pump to try if there is power there. Will also said he was going to take the tank out and have it cleaned and coated. There was some crap in there so I suggested he refresh the rest of the fuel lines. Any luck we'll have it going in no time
Sounds like he's in better hands now. Gotta have the multimeter if you have a teener.
Knew something was up when I saw no ECU behind the battery.
Good luck.
Posted by: r_towle Nov 22 2009, 04:41 PM
good luck
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 23 2009, 12:45 PM
going to check out if the fuel pump is bad tonight, purchased my multimeter and am ready to get the thing running. hopefully soon. i also posted a WTB for a fuel pump since i have a sneaking suspicsion it had gone to crap.
also, i have a shout out to scott for all his help, id be wandering in circles without your help man
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Nov 30 2009, 12:16 PM
alright, im pulling the fuel pump out today and replacing all of the other fuel lines in the engine bay. im ordering a fuel pump today off another member, and ordering plugs, distributor cap, and a new fuel sock. i do know know where to purchase the sock from, any help would be greatly appreciated.
im going to check when i get home to see if there is any power at the fuel pump too, it doesnt even click as is.
im not entirely sure how to use my multimeter, it comes with a 12V thingy too.
i wanna get this baby running!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 30 2009, 01:11 PM
If you're replacing the sock (bought one from AA a few weeks ago) that means you're pulling the tank. I am going through all of this at the same time you are. If you have the tank out you might as well replace the lines in the tunnel, and off the tank, as well as the ones in the engine bay. Why not? It's like pulling up your carpet to replace it and not repairing that squeaky or rotten sub floor below it while you have the carpet out. The pump is better up front, but not required. If you move it up there you need some form of access (see my recent thread with pictures as to how I did that). Other than running a power wire up there for it, it's no more difficult than hooking it up where it is now.
I'm gonna feel much better rolling down the road knowing all of my fuel carryig plumbing is new as opposed to half new and half 40 freakin' years old!
alright, im pulling the fuel pump out today and replacing all of the other fuel lines in the engine bay. im ordering a fuel pump today off another member, and ordering plugs, distributor cap, and a new fuel sock. i do know know where to purchase the sock from, any help would be greatly appreciated.
im going to check when i get home to see if there is any power at the fuel pump too, it doesnt even click as is.
im not entirely sure how to use my multimeter, it comes with a 12V thingy too.
i wanna get this baby running!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 30 2009, 01:13 PM
P.S. BRG 914s are the best.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 30 2009, 01:13 PM
BTW...BRG = Bavarian racing Green
P.S. BRG 914s are the best.
Posted by: silverteener Nov 30 2009, 01:37 PM
Will,
Let me know if you are going to do some work tonight. I can stop by. I need to get my books anyway and I can show you how to use your multimeter. You can get your plugs, cap, rotor etc at Foreign Car Parts here locally. You will need to order the sock. I ordered mine from AA and paid more for shipping than the part. And thats the last time I did business with them!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 30 2009, 01:41 PM
Hope that wasn't your reason. Placing a small order like that will always result in the shipping being more than the part. In fact, when I placed an order a few eeks ago, the amount came to something like $18, and the person told me they didn;t want to ship anything less than $25 and "forced" me to increase my order. I took an oil filter at his suggestion.
Will,
Let me know if you are going to do some work tonight. I can stop by. I need to get my books anyway and I can show you how to use your multimeter. You can get your plugs, cap, rotor etc at Foreign Car Parts here locally. You will need to order the sock. I ordered mine from AA and paid more for shipping than the part. And thats the last time I did business with them!
Posted by: silverteener Nov 30 2009, 01:50 PM
Nope,
the fact that I was quoted a price for shipping when I ordered it, then get the bill for more. I wasn't told to order more til I emailed George about the mistake and that's what he suggested. To me, if I'm quoted a price I should get it, if they messed up that should be on them. I think I got a refund of like 35 cents. There a other sources out there that value their customers. And we had just ordered pretty much everything from them for an engine rebuild, spent a lot of money, and he knew that. But like I said there are plenty of other sources if you look hard enough Anyways, I think there are some VW suppliers that have that sock. I think....
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Nov 30 2009, 02:13 PM
I sent an e-mail to AA a fw weeks ago, asking if they had any fuel pump access panles for a 75/76 car. I never got an answer. A few days later I got a package at my door with one inside and a bill for $85 freakin' dollars. The $25 pr order blackmail came after that.
Posted by: silverteener Nov 30 2009, 02:58 PM
now thats customer service 
Posted by: silverteener Nov 30 2009, 08:48 PM
it sounds like there is no power at the pump. time to do some tracing. any suggestions
Posted by: r_towle Nov 30 2009, 09:01 PM
I got lost.
Shapiro...lets help this guy on this thread.
Relay board fuse and relay in engine bay.
Check for power at the fuses on the board...
Then if that checks out, see if the headlights go up.
If they do, go take one of the headlight relays and replace the fuel pump relay with a KNOWN working relay.
Rich
Posted by: silverteener Dec 5 2009, 01:32 PM
I just got back from Wills house and we tried a couple things. I took my good relay board out of my car and put it in his. we also hooked up a good fuel pump but there is still no power at the pump. So to me the issue would not be in the relay board right. 
I still need to do some more research. what do you guys think..
thanks
Posted by: r_towle Dec 5 2009, 05:19 PM
Alright.
Look at the positive terminal of the battery.
How many wires are attached?
Get a meter on the fat RED wires going TO the ignition switch inside the
car. I get to these at the front of the tunnel or near the shifter.
What you want to see is two things.
You want to find the RED wire that has power with no key in the ignition.
You want to find the RED wire that has power with the key in the RUN position...basically going back to the relay board.
Use sewing pins and stick them right through the middle of the red wires...then test for 12vdc on each wire till you find it. They are the larger diameter wires...they are the only ones.
If this is positive, you now need to find the RED wire in the tunnel that has power once the key is turned on to the run position.
Use the same process, but this wire will only have power when key is in the run position. This RED wire leads to the relay board.
There is also a YELLOW wire that is the trigger for the starter. While your there, test it.
It will only have power with the key in the start position.
Its kinda stupid, but power goes from the battery, to the ignition switch, then back the the relay board...its a long way.
If this test fails, you need a new ignition switch.
If the test passes, go to the relay board, and find that RED wire and test for power again at the relay board to verify its still getting there.
If you have power at the relay board, its either the relay board or the wiring to the pump...or the pump..or the fuel injection relay.
This is all assuming that you have checked ALL the fuses with a meter, not just visually.
Make sure they all pass power from one side to the other...not just ohm, but 12VDC on each side.
Posted by: markb Dec 5 2009, 05:32 PM
Maybe next time you'll call us & not be pressured into buying what you don't need.
Hope that wasn't your reason. Placing a small order like that will always result in the shipping being more than the part. In fact, when I placed an order a few eeks ago, the amount came to something like $18, and the person told me they didn;t want to ship anything less than $25 and "forced" me to increase my order. I took an oil filter at his suggestion.
Will,
Let me know if you are going to do some work tonight. I can stop by. I need to get my books anyway and I can show you how to use your multimeter. You can get your plugs, cap, rotor etc at Foreign Car Parts here locally. You will need to order the sock. I ordered mine from AA and paid more for shipping than the part. And thats the last time I did business with them!
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 7 2009, 04:46 PM
Alright.
Look at the positive terminal of the battery.
How many wires are attached?
Get a meter on the fat RED wires going TO the ignition switch inside the
car. I get to these at the front of the tunnel or near the shifter.
What you want to see is two things.
You want to find the RED wire that has power with no key in the ignition.
You want to find the RED wire that has power with the key in the RUN position...basically going back to the relay board.
Use sewing pins and stick them right through the middle of the red wires...then test for 12vdc on each wire till you find it. They are the larger diameter wires...they are the only ones.
If this is positive, you now need to find the RED wire in the tunnel that has power once the key is turned on to the run position.
Use the same process, but this wire will only have power when key is in the run position. This RED wire leads to the relay board.
There is also a YELLOW wire that is the trigger for the starter. While your there, test it.
It will only have power with the key in the start position.
Its kinda stupid, but power goes from the battery, to the ignition switch, then back the the relay board...its a long way.
If this test fails, you need a new ignition switch.
If the test passes, go to the relay board, and find that RED wire and test for power again at the relay board to verify its still getting there.
If you have power at the relay board, its either the relay board or the wiring to the pump...or the pump..or the fuel injection relay.
This is all assuming that you have checked ALL the fuses with a meter, not just visually.
Make sure they all pass power from one side to the other...not just ohm, but 12VDC on each side.
im going out to the garage to do all of this right now, will update soon
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 7 2009, 06:36 PM
ok i have power at the relay board. how do i check the wire that goes to the fuel pump. i have no idea which one it is and i looked and i cant even tell where it goes to.
Posted by: Spoke Dec 7 2009, 07:48 PM
Where did you measure power on the relay board?
There are 2 fuses, perhaps, a 25A and 8A. The 25A is towards the rear of the car. With the ignition on, you should have 12V on both sides of the fuse.
Check that you have 12V on the 25A fuse and let us know what you measure.
The 25A fuse powers the fuel pump through the relay.
This is only part of the circuit to get the fuel pump running. Let's go one step at a time. Power first, then control, then relay, then fuel pump.
Posted by: Spoke Dec 7 2009, 09:55 PM
Here's the circuit for the fuel pump.
When the ignition switch is turned on, the power supply relay energizes and provides power to the ECU on pin I and power to the contact for the fuel pump.
The fuel pump relay turns on when the ECU senses the engine turning via the contacts on the dizzy. The ECU energizes the fuel pump relay by grounding pin III.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: r_towle Dec 7 2009, 10:10 PM
lemme translate.
put a volt meter on the fuel pump, get a helper to turn the key to run...do you see power at the fuel pump?
If you have power at the relay board, and no power at the fuel pump, you now need to get Spoke to explain how to test the rest of the circuit.
Spoke, he just bought his first volt meter last week, be nice.
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 7 2009, 10:13 PM
Where did you measure power on the relay board?
There are 2 fuses, perhaps, a 25A and 8A. The 25A is towards the rear of the car. With the ignition on, you should have 12V on both sides of the fuse.
Check that you have 12V on the 25A fuse and let us know what you measure.
The 25A fuse powers the fuel pump through the relay.
This is only part of the circuit to get the fuel pump running. Let's go one step at a time. Power first, then control, then relay, then fuel pump.
i have 12V at 25A and 8 at the other i think mabe 12 i dont remember
Posted by: r_towle Dec 7 2009, 10:18 PM
Where did you measure power on the relay board?
There are 2 fuses, perhaps, a 25A and 8A. The 25A is towards the rear of the car. With the ignition on, you should have 12V on both sides of the fuse.
Check that you have 12V on the 25A fuse and let us know what you measure.
The 25A fuse powers the fuel pump through the relay.
This is only part of the circuit to get the fuel pump running. Let's go one step at a time. Power first, then control, then relay, then fuel pump.
i have 12V at both fuses.
How about at the pump.
It should only have power for about 1.5 seconds when you turn the key on.
It then again gets power once the motor starts.
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 7 2009, 10:22 PM
Where did you measure power on the relay board?
There are 2 fuses, perhaps, a 25A and 8A. The 25A is towards the rear of the car. With the ignition on, you should have 12V on both sides of the fuse.
Check that you have 12V on the 25A fuse and let us know what you measure.
The 25A fuse powers the fuel pump through the relay.
This is only part of the circuit to get the fuel pump running. Let's go one step at a time. Power first, then control, then relay, then fuel pump.
i have 12V at both fuses.
How about at the pump.
It should only have power for about 1.5 seconds when you turn the key on.
It then again gets power once the motor starts.
Rich
no power there. i have another fuel pump that silverteener (scott) let me borrow and im getting nothing...it doesnt click or anything and i tested the power too and got nothing. i stick positive meter into the connector that gets plugged into the fuel pump and the other one to the transmission case as a ground?
Posted by: r_towle Dec 7 2009, 10:31 PM
have you replaced the fuel pump relay with a known good relay?
if so, do you have power on the red/black wire from the relay to the fuel pump?
We are down to three things.
wiring from relay board to pump is broken inside the harness
relay board is broken
ecu is broken.
So, if you have power at pin 13 with the key on, then we can assume the relay board is working and the relay works.
Next.
Ohm meter from pin 13 on the wiring harness to the other end of the wire to check if its broken.
If those two test clear those issues, it may be the ECU.
RIch
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 7 2009, 10:38 PM
have you replaced the fuel pump relay with a known good relay?
if so, do you have power on the red/black wire from the relay to the fuel pump?
We are down to three things.
wiring from relay board to pump is broken inside the harness
relay board is broken
ecu is broken.
So, if you have power at pin 13 with the key on, then we can assume the relay board is working and the relay works.
Next.
Ohm meter from pin 13 on the wiring harness to the other end of the wire to check if its broken.
If those two test clear those issues, it may be the ECU.
RIch
the wire coming off the relay doesnt go straight to the fuel pump? switched my relay board with scotts and it didnt do anything. How do i check the ohm from pin 13 on the wiring harness to the other end of the wire if i cant find it? lol
Posted by: r_towle Dec 7 2009, 10:45 PM
what color wire is currently plugged into the fuel pump?
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 7 2009, 11:02 PM
what color wire is currently plugged into the fuel pump?
Rich
ok with the plug that has pin 13 on it pulled i have no power through the fuses. grrrrr this is really starting to frustrate me
Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 7 2009, 11:55 PM
Power comes into the relay board through the front connector. Power goes out to the pump also through the front connector on the board.
Have you looked at the fuel pump troubleshooting guide on Brad Anders' D-jet website? Look toward the bottom of http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders
--DD
Posted by: 914_teener Dec 8 2009, 12:18 AM
Dave,
I think Rich almost had him home.......Rennlist may sould like gibberish right now.
Keep at it...... I have been following this thread for a while. It reminds me of my first problem with my car.
It is a learning process.
Keep going........
Rich is like master Yoda.
Posted by: r_towle Dec 8 2009, 12:24 AM
what color wire is currently plugged into the fuel pump?
Rich
so, at the pump...what color is the wire.
Rich
Posted by: Spoke Dec 8 2009, 01:36 AM
Here's a couple of simple tests to check for proper voltages:
Test 1: Power Supply Relay operation:
1a) Remove the plug from the ECU. This is 4 pronged ECU connector near the driver rear of the relay board with white wires going towards the ECU. We'll call the 4 pins on this connector:
Pin I is passenger front
Pin II is passenger rear
Pin III is driver front
Pin IV is driver rear
1b) turn ignition switch ON. You should hear a low click when the middle relay turns on. (Power Supply Relay; it's the middle one if you have 3 relays or the front one if you have 2 relays)
1c) Measure voltage on ECU connector pin I (passenger front). It should be 12V.
****************
If 1c) is not 12V, then we have to find out why the Power Supply Relay is not turning on. Do not do the next test.
If 1c) is 12V, then proceed to test fuel pump relay:
****************
Test 2: Fuel Pump Relay Energizing:
2a) Keep ECU plug off. Turn ignition switch OFF.
2b) Get a piece of wire 2 feet long or longer with a female spade on it like shown below. Connect this spade to ECU connector pin III (driver front).
WARNING: The reason for the spaded wire is that Pin I on this connector is 12V through the power supply relay directly to the battery WITH NO FUSE. Accidentally touching Pin I to ground (we're grounding pin III right next to it) can cause serious damage and sparking.
2c) Once the spade is connected to Pin III, hold the other end of the wire up in the air (not connected to anything). Turn ignition switch ON.
2d) Touch and re-touch the other end of the wire to a clean chassis ground. Listen for the fuel pump relay to click when the wire is touched to a clean chassis ground.
****************
If 2d) yields Fuel Pump Relay clicking, proceed to test 3.
****************
Test 3: Fuel Pump Voltage
3a) Remove power connector from fuel pump.
3b) Ground ECU connector pin III (driver front) like in 2b through 2d).
3c) Turn ignition switch ON.
3d) Measure 12V across the 2 wires of the fuel pump connector.
****************
If 3d) yields 12V, then the circuitry to power the fuel pump is ok.
Sorry for the length of this post and the detail. If this stuff was easy my post would be like 10 words long and you'd be driving your car now. It is not easy and a methodical approach will lead us to the fault or faults.
Hang in there, we will get you through this.
If you can't get through this, PM me and we can talk on the phone while you test.
Good luck.
Wire for grounding ECU connector Pin III:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: silverteener Dec 8 2009, 12:10 PM
Rich,
If it turns out to be his ECU I have others but I'm not sure what years they are from. Would we still be able to swap one out?
thanks
Scott
Posted by: r_towle Dec 8 2009, 08:20 PM
Scott,
I would advise you to brinng a few with you, paul anders site on rennlist will tell you what ECU goes in what car....he has a full chart.
For any of the cars running djet the fuel pump circuit is the same.
The differences in the ECU is the hard coded air/fuel map.
I would suggest that you do a complete test of the fuel pump wiring first and dont risk shorting out a decent ECU if the wire is rubbing or broken and shorted that is going to it.
I would suggest that you do the tests a few posts above this one first.
Then...pull the main plug off the ECU and use an ohm meter to test the whole FI wiring harness...
There are lots of wierd issues when you have a broken wire or wires inside an FI harness...it will drive you mad.
Rich
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 10 2009, 12:11 PM
Scott,
I would advise you to brinng a few with you, paul anders site on rennlist will tell you what ECU goes in what car....he has a full chart.
For any of the cars running djet the fuel pump circuit is the same.
The differences in the ECU is the hard coded air/fuel map.
I would suggest that you do a complete test of the fuel pump wiring first and dont risk shorting out a decent ECU if the wire is rubbing or broken and shorted that is going to it.
I would suggest that you do the tests a few posts above this one first.
Then...pull the main plug off the ECU and use an ohm meter to test the whole FI wiring harness...
There are lots of wierd issues when you have a broken wire or wires inside an FI harness...it will drive you mad.
Rich
my buddy and i are going to run the tests above and post the results. i looked and didnt find any breaks in the wire either. im thinking at this point that its the ECU....will update soon
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 10 2009, 08:08 PM
UPDATE!
spoke i did your test and got the fuel pump relay to click but am confused as to what to do after that, ill PM me you my number if you would like to call me, but otherwise i can wait and check here tomorrow or later tonight. whatever makes it easier for both of us.
btw scott i swapped out the middle relay with one from my headlights just to be sure
Posted by: Spoke Dec 10 2009, 10:23 PM
Did you do all the tests listed?
Test 3 will test if you have voltage at the fuel pump. If the fuel pump relay is clicking (Test 2) then Test 3 will test for voltage at the fuel pump.
PM me when you want to talk. Sounds like we're getting close.
Test 1 proves that you have 12V to power the ECU. This is good.
Test 2 proves that the ECU can power the relay.
Test 3 proves that you have voltage at the fuel pump.
Good thing about these relays is that they are the same unit and can be swapped like Rich said before.
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 10 2009, 11:51 PM
Did you do all the tests listed?
Test 3 will test if you have voltage at the fuel pump. If the fuel pump relay is clicking (Test 2) then Test 3 will test for voltage at the fuel pump.
PM me when you want to talk. Sounds like we're getting close.
Test 1 proves that you have 12V to power the ECU. This is good.
Test 2 proves that the ECU can power the relay.
Test 3 proves that you have voltage at the fuel pump.
Good thing about these relays is that they are the same unit and can be swapped like Rich said before.
i did test 1 and 2, both positive. ill pm you my phone number so you can guide me through test 3, im a little bit confused as to what to do. im making progress though, and learning a helluva a lot on the way. ill drink to that
Posted by: forzamotorsport9 Dec 10 2009, 11:56 PM
what color wire is currently plugged into the fuel pump?
Rich
so, at the pump...what color is the wire.
Rich
ill check that tomorrow i forgot to tonight
Posted by: silverteener Jan 1 2010, 02:38 PM
ok,
We're going to start working on this again. I've printed off this post so we can run thru all the tests. We my end up bringing Wills car to my house so we have all tools we need, and it would be easier for me! I hope to have the pump running this weekend
Posted by: silverteener Feb 27 2010, 05:53 PM
Well we finally got Will's car to my house. I just went thru Spokes tests and on 2d when I jumped the ground I could not hear the fuel pump relay clicking. I'm not sure where to go from here but I haven't looked into it yet. Gotta go get the little one at mema's and papa's!
Posted by: Spoke Mar 1 2010, 11:39 AM
If you can't get the fuel pump relay to click with power on with 12V measured at Pin I to the ECU (ECU disconnected) and Pin III to the ECU connected to ground, then we need to look at the connections to the fuel pump relay and the relay itself.
Check the resistance of the fuel pump relay coil. Do this by turning ignition OFF, with ECU disconnected, set voltmeter to OHMS and measure resistance between Pin I and Pin III to the ECU. You should read the resistance of the coil which (a guess) should be about 10-50 ohms. If high impedance, we have a problem.
To test the fuel pump relay, swap the power supply relay for the fuel pump relay, turn ignition on and measure 12V at Pin I to the ECU. If not 12V then something is wrong with the relay. If 12V, then the relay is ok.
Posted by: silverteener Mar 2 2010, 06:29 PM
thanks for the info Spoke. I'm in Atlanta right now but when I get home on Monday I will do the tests. thanks again.
Scott
Posted by: silverteener Mar 9 2010, 08:39 PM
Ok, I checked the resistance on the fuel pump relay coil and it read 72.5 ohms. I also checked and we have 12v at pin I with the ignition on.
And now I thought I heard a faint click when I turn the key on which may be the fuel pump relay clicking. or I'm hearing things and 2nd guessing myself!
Posted by: silverteener Mar 10 2010, 08:35 PM
Will was over tonight so we were able to try a couple more things. I confirmed there is power at the pump for 1.5 seconds but the pump won't run. I also switched out the ECU with another one I had and it still won't work. For some reason the fuel pump won't run. We also tried another fuel pump that I have and it won't run either. Any Suggestions??
Thanks
Scott
Posted by: Spoke Mar 11 2010, 06:00 AM
Will was over tonight so we were able to try a couple more things. I confirmed there is power at the pump for 1.5 seconds but the pump won't run. I also switched out the ECU with another one I had and it still won't work. For some reason the fuel pump won't run. We also tried another fuel pump that I have and it won't run either. Any Suggestions??
Thanks
Scott
Just to confirm, the fuel pump has power as expected (1.5 sec) when the key is turned on but the pump isn't running at that time, correct?
Or is it the pump runs for 1.5 sec when the key is turned on but it won't run when cranking the engine?
Posted by: silverteener Mar 11 2010, 08:09 AM
Will was over tonight so we were able to try a couple more things. I confirmed there is power at the pump for 1.5 seconds but the pump won't run. I also switched out the ECU with another one I had and it still won't work. For some reason the fuel pump won't run. We also tried another fuel pump that I have and it won't run either. Any Suggestions??
Thanks
Scott
Just to confirm, the fuel pump has power as expected (1.5 sec) when the key is turned on but the pump isn't running at that time, correct?
Or is it the pump runs for 1.5 sec when the key is turned on but it won't run when cranking the engine?
There is power as expected for 1.5 sec when the key is turned on but the pump isn't running at that time. I also plugged one of my pumps in and it won't work either
Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 11 2010, 02:36 PM
Did you check the power and ground wires of the pump? Could be a ground problem...
--DD
Posted by: silverteener Mar 11 2010, 02:54 PM
I tested the plug for power but how do I check it for ground? I did clean and tighten the grounds next to the relay board and the transmission ground is also tight.
Thanks!
Posted by: silverteener Mar 11 2010, 08:25 PM
Well I believe I found the problem. both fuel pumps are junk. I found another pump and wired it up to the battery and it worked. I wired up my spare pump we were using and it wouldn't work . All I need to do is plug the good one into Will's car and we can see if it will start. Hopefully there won't be too many other problems with it and he'll be in no time!
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