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Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 03:48 AM

This prototype will be ready for installation in my street car in a few days.






Update: 02/18/10
Pre-production discount price of $1359 in effect through 03/07/10
Paypal accepted at my website. http://www.tangerineracing.com/engine.htm#Horizontal%20Cooling%20Fan%20Conversion

Posted by: raw1298 Jan 21 2010, 04:42 AM

looks great !

Posted by: watsonrx13 Jan 21 2010, 05:44 AM

Looks great Chris...

If this is installed, would the engine tin still be needed?

-- Rob

Posted by: Zimms Jan 21 2010, 05:51 AM

It looks great. Any plans to test it against a horizontal fan DTM style shroud? I would be curious to see the cooling capacity over stock and DTM configurations and if there is any additional HP losses.

Posted by: ottox914 Jan 21 2010, 07:53 AM

Great, just great. I've been fantasizing about a set up like this for the 914 turbo motor. I'm gonna have to give you a call here...

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 08:13 AM

For a street car - yes, a race car - no.
Our kit will include aluminum sheetmetal to seal the engine compartment.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Jan 21 2010, 09:02 AM

"Take your Porsh and chev it" ?

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Jan 21 2010, 09:03 AM

(looks like a corvair engine!!!)

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 09:08 AM

Comparative tests will be done over time.
With the new shroud design I am able to improve airflow by more than 10% over what I ran previously, ensuring even better pressure under the shroud for larger displacement engines.

There will be a 4 channel digital CHT gauge on this engine to accurately monitor of head temps, just like in the race car.

I am confident the hp losses are similar.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 09:12 AM

Um, I think it looks more like a Porsche engine George.
They used flat fans in more than one application. Most notably on the 917 engines.

Posted by: jaxdream Jan 21 2010, 09:12 AM

Does look good , alternator change would be a snap . What about alternator cooling ?? Oil filter appears to be relocated , spark plug change ?? What provisions for these areas ??Still overall aGR8 looking design , I do like it better than DTM , more compact , have you any data on oil temps, head temps ??

Jaxdream

Posted by: Mr.242 Jan 21 2010, 09:17 AM

I like the enginering...very Corvair ISH.

NOW, what about just adding an electric fan on top instead of robbing any HP off the motor?

RIGHT HERE! Is it possible????





Nice clean fan with the motor tucked inside, a pull design, smooth porsche gill over the top. ???? sorry, my .02 cents, free too!

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jan 21 2010, 09:58 AM

With the necessarily high tension on the belts at the end of that long extension on the end of the crank, how's the side loading on both the snout of the crank and the #4 main bearing?

The Cap'n

Posted by: turboman808 Jan 21 2010, 10:11 AM

Very cool! When will this be on a six.

Actually no hurry. I got a list of stuff I would like you to do to my car for the next few years.

Posted by: kwales Jan 21 2010, 12:10 PM

No, the electric fan isn't used for cooling, it's used to turbo the intake.

Seriously, energy isn't free- even when it's electrical.

That electric fan will either draw power from the alternator or from a battery pack- both of which which will drag down the HP.

Chris, looks good, can't wait for cooling numbers.

Ken

Posted by: URY914 Jan 21 2010, 12:30 PM

Don't think that an electric motor driven fan will move enough air.

Look very good Chris. How long and how many race miles do you think you have on this system?

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Jan 21 2010, 01:25 PM

I will never forget the time a flared 914 rolled in here and the guy told us that he wanted more power. We lifted the lid and lo and behold a corvair engine! Before I could say "sorry we do not work on corvair engines" an old mechanic I had working for me at the time said "sure we can do it for you!" Well Chris for the next year and a half he was modifying and building this bandit corvair engine for the guy, taking up WAY too much shop space and wasting HUNDREDS of labor hours that we could have devoted to 914 engines! That cooling fan belt arrangement reminded me of that engine. It ended up having so much power that it would constantly spin off the 90 degree belt from the setup. Looks like you have corrected it by installing TWO pulleys!!!!

Posted by: RobW Jan 21 2010, 01:30 PM

Awesome.

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 21 2010, 01:37 PM

An electric fan costs you just the same amount of power by making the alternator work harder.
Plus, you would still have to figure out how to make it turn in sync with the rpm, otherwise you overcool at low rpm ...

No gain there ...
Andy

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 02:04 PM

The tension isn't any higher than any alternator belt.
Not only that, my pulley isn't as far away from the #4 bearing as the factory pulley.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 02:10 PM

We're still working on the alternator cooling feature but it is no problem.
Remote oil filter and cooler required.
Spark plugs will be no harder than stock. I just haven't opened the holes up on the shroud yet.
No hard data other than my years of experience on the track competing in SCCA.
Oil temps will depend on how good of an oil cooler system is installed.
Head temps on any mild engine will be fine. It wasn't until I was pushing 100hp/liter that any difficulty arose in that department.

Posted by: flipb Jan 21 2010, 02:15 PM

If you reverse the direction of the fan, would you have Chaparralesque grip?

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 02:17 PM

Paul is right. An electric fan will never provide the necessary cooling air. The 914 cooling system relies on air pressure more than shear volume. While the electric fan may put out high volume it isn't capable of building static pressure.

Since 1998 I've logged more than 5000 race track miles with this system installed.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 02:21 PM

Back in 1999, I had one belt come off, resulting in a cooked engine.
Since then, I redesigned the pulleys and used a better belt. At the same time I installed a warning system. The belt has never failed again and the warning system has been cheap insurance that I haven't had to use.

Posted by: URY914 Jan 21 2010, 03:25 PM

And the belts are much better these days then in years past.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 21 2010, 04:45 PM

Wow You sure do come up with some cool stuff Chris. I can't wait to see it finished in CF

Posted by: ottox914 Jan 21 2010, 06:13 PM

- Would changing the alternator out to a more modern unit be easier than working out the cooling for the factory unit?

- What do you suggest for remote cooler- size and location?

- Plugs should be no big deal once the holes are opened up.

- This could be a great thing for the 914T... need any additional testers?...

- Would a basic FG shroud be any cheeper/easier than CF?

Cool... very cool.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 21 2010, 08:31 PM

The stock unit is one of the shortest available and fits very nicely.
Besides, everybody already has one with the correct wiring and connector.
We'll solve the cooling issue and I'm sure it won't be much work.
A smaller pulley would be better though.

Of course, a front mounted cooler is the best for cool air access.
With a Tangerine Header, a cooler on the passenger side behind the axle is feasible.
For most people a 16-25 row cooler is the best size range, depending on displacement/rpm range.
We will probably offer a cooler kit later this year.

I opened the holes up this evening after I fitted ring thermocouples on the plugs.

I need lots of testers, paying testers.
Really, the system is well proven to be very effective.

I still need to do more research but I don't think the price difference is that great.

Yes indeed. When I first saw the original made by Jay Putnam I knew it was an excellent idea, perhaps his only one.

Posted by: Brando Jan 21 2010, 09:37 PM

Chris if I still had a 914 I would have loved to be a paying tester.

A top-down cooler is ideal for turbocharging applications because the intercooler can be directly on top of the cooling fan. Imagine the intake temp drop with that!

Posted by: bdstone914 Jan 21 2010, 10:05 PM

Andy,
There would be gains, or really less power consumption, with electric fans. Yes they use power but considerable less than mechanical fans. You can control the fan speed off of temperature rather than engine speed for better warm up and max cooling only when needed. I work for a company that offers a two speed fan with a 260 watt ( about 1/3 HP) motor and a two speed controler. There are other pulse with modulating controllers that can vary the fan speed. The power consumption of a mechanical increases with the cube ( power of 3) of the RPM.
I recall that the old Corvair fan pulled about 20 hp at 8,000 fan RPM. I believe it was a 12" fan.

Chris,
It you want to try one out I can probably get a free sample.

Bruce

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 22 2010, 06:24 AM

Thanks Bruce but I'm not interested in testing an electric fan cooling system. Somebody else already markets one. While it may be of value in an AX situation I really don't believe such a setup can ever work effectively for a street or track car. You can't get something for nothing.
If a mechanical fan requires 10+HP then an electric fan of similar power consumption would be required. The reason for the big difference is that the electric fan blades move air but don't build pressure under load. All the fins on an aircooled engine create substantial backpressure that must be overcome for the cooling air to pass through.

The stock corvair fan was 11" diameter and spun at a significant overdrive vs. the crankshaft.
At 1:1 (9" fan:crank) speed my 1.8L race engine still made 183hp @ 7500rpm with the fan connected. In the dyno room the head temps stayed well below 400F but in the race car they crept up a little further due to vehicle aerodynamic effects.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 24 2010, 05:03 PM

My CAD guy gave me this animation the other day.
The idlers and the fan look like they're going the wrong direction because of a frame rate vs rotation speed mismatch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y-nZKUSZxg

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 24 2010, 05:49 PM

Here are pics of the latest progress.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jan 24 2010, 06:22 PM

That sounds cool! Can I get a sample to put on my car? Or at least a link to the manufacturer?

I'm building a shroud with a half dozen triple blade deltas right now but if you have something much more powerful that can be controlled with PWM that'd be even better...

Posted by: ericread Jan 24 2010, 06:42 PM

Finally! A 914 hovercraft!!!

Posted by: URY914 Jan 24 2010, 07:37 PM

Chris, is the aluminum several pieces you tig'd together and hammered smooth? If so your as good with a hammer as you are with a rod.

Posted by: Dr Evil Jan 24 2010, 10:07 PM

Bang on corvair as it is belt driven vs gear driven. Very cool and proven on 6cyl vair motors.

The tension on the belts is not very much. The main reason for throwing belts is having the belts too tight. The vair fans are very light and out of mag alloy so that they do not fight RPM changes. The vair setup does have belt protectors near the pulley and the fan pulley. The alt is set in as one of the 90* pulleys. Here are some pics of mine. Good setup.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: turnaround89 Jan 25 2010, 01:30 AM

How much is the cost going to be for this setup?

Posted by: lotus_65 Jan 25 2010, 04:48 AM

Could you elaborate on this please Chris?
Also, the object here is mainly head temp control, correct?

Thanks -

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 25 2010, 05:55 AM

Yes, I made this shroud from several pieces. I took a pattern off of it that I could cut from one piece and eliminate most of the welding I did. Still not sure if it would be economical though.

I've been working around an estimate between $1500-1600 but I still have to get quotes on machined parts, water jet cutting, and on the shroud.

You can see some stock sheetmetal in the pictures. The kit will utilize the stock front and rear pieces only. Three aluminum pieces will be provided in the kit - both sides and one that fills the space left by the original fan shroud.
In a street car its important to keep the top and bottom of the engine compartment separated so the carbs and cooling system intake get fresh cool air from above, and to keep the engine compartment cleaner.

Posted by: rdauenhauer Jan 25 2010, 08:46 AM

I was wondering about this..It dosent look like this setup is designed to accommodate a common plenum intake?

Posted by: nsr-jamie Jan 25 2010, 08:53 AM

Chris, first want to thank you for sending me those fuel lines to Japan for that amazing price with that huge box, thank you!!

Also I want to say I am a big fan of your products and someday hope to have a Tangerine EVO exhaust when funds allow plus the MSD distributor and other parts as well.

I love this setup, I think it totally looks Porsche with the vintage racing look such as 917 and those early 908 cars too I believe with the horizontal fan.

Someday I will probably need to have this conversion too, just a couple of questions...

Will you make the sheetmetal in carbon fiber? (That would be so sool if possible) and will these have clearence for twin carb conversions?

Thank you again for all your help and efforts with the 914 world community

Cheers
Jamie in Japan

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 26 2010, 08:07 PM

You mean something like this?

I think a d-jet setup could be worked out but the stock filter housing would have to be changed out for a "cold air intake", and the runners would have to be remade to fit a raised plenum. The 1.7L plenum would be easier to work with because of the side mounted TB.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 26 2010, 08:13 PM

Jamie, congrats on getting your car on the road again.
I don't know about doing the tinwork in C/F, but its a possibility I guess.
The shroud will more than likely be made from single layer wet layup C/F as the aluminum shroud is labor intensive.
Twin carb or ITB fuel injection will easily fit with this cooling system.
Here's the prototype assembly nearly ready for installation in my car:



Attached image(s)

Posted by: Dr Evil Jan 26 2010, 08:30 PM

That looks so bad ass

Posted by: Rod Jan 27 2010, 03:20 AM

Cool. Well let's hope so

Looking great. I agree with a previous comment about the alternator, a more modern alternative with a higher output would be a great idea and require no cooling so eliminates one problem, and improves the output at the same time.

I know you used the corvair fan, but now you have the shroud mould made up, how duifficult would it be to substitute that fan for a 911 fan with a built in Alt??

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 27 2010, 06:16 AM

All alternators need cooling. Most have a cooling fan built onto the front which makes them even longer, consequently harder to fit in the stock location. I'm pretty sure higher output alternators are available in the same style as what is used on Type 4 engines.

I have no desire to use a 911 fan/alternator. For one thing, they blow air in the wrong direction.

Posted by: Rod Jan 27 2010, 10:41 AM

Thanks Chris.

Posted by: r_towle Feb 6 2010, 04:20 PM

I saw this setup today and it looked great. I think he may have polished it since the last set of pics. It looks great, sound great.

I love the 4 channel CHT setup....sweet

Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 7 2010, 12:23 PM

It was good to see you Rich!

Here's how it looks in the car.

Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 7 2010, 02:20 PM

Chris,
Bruce works for Haydon on his day job so I imagine that would be the manufacturer. Try PM or start another thread though... Not sure Chris Foley will appreciate the thread diversion...

Posted by: Brando Feb 7 2010, 05:19 PM

Chris,
Would it be possible to show an intercooler placed over the fan? It seems it would be easier to make one where it has a single feed on the front or back plumbed then to the two intake banks on each side...

Posted by: ottox914 Feb 8 2010, 08:10 AM

See my build thread for exactly the IC set up you are describing- although mine is not mounted over this new cooling system. There would be some challenges- belt maintenance, routing charge lines to and from the IC, the linkage for dual ITBs would probably have to be some sort of cable set up, like Jake is working on, unless you changed to a single TB in front of the IC, then you run out of space off the back of the IC. It all could be done, but would require some time and patience.

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 8 2010, 08:23 AM

Genaro has an Audi TT intercooler that he will bring to work so I can take some pictures.

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 16 2010, 12:21 PM

I'm working on a wooden buck to form more aluminum shrouds right now and wanted to remove the one from my car for measuring and fitting.
Normally getting the cooling tin off is a big project, easier if you drop the engine first.
In this case all it took was to remove the spark plug wires, coil and oil temp wires, the vee belt, 4 cheesehead screws, and unbolt one carb.
10 minutes later and it lifted out- Voila!

Posted by: Cevan Feb 16 2010, 02:07 PM

I saw this in person last week (needed my annual Brad Penn refill). I agree with Dr. Evil, it does look badass. A carbon fiber version would be over the top.

Chris - thanks for the quick tour.

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 18 2010, 11:43 AM

Production of the first batch has begun.
For a limited time I am offering them at the discounted price of $1359.
After 03/07/10 the regular price will be $1599.
My website is ready to take Paypal orders now.

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 24 2010, 12:16 PM

Here's an Audi TT intercooler sitting on my throttle linkage crossbar.


and a bigger Audi 5000 i/c

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 24 2010, 12:23 PM

And here's a pic of the wooden form I've been working on.
I'm nearly ready to start pounding out aluminum shrouds.

Posted by: Dr Evil Feb 24 2010, 02:00 PM

Very cool process. Thanks for posting.

Posted by: FourBlades Feb 24 2010, 02:45 PM

How much additional engine horsepower output do you think this set up will
cool on an extended race compared to the stock?

Is there a big difference in weight between the systems?

How did you make the wooden buck? Belt sander?

I think an old time, beige, natural fiberglass shroud would look more period.

That might be a cool alternative look.

John

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 24 2010, 04:45 PM

I started with an oak tree that a friend cut down in his back yard 26 years ago.
A 7 ft log was cut from the tree and I cut that into quarters using a large hand saw and then into square lumber with my Inca bandsaw.
I stacked the boards in my basement and let them age for 26 years just to be sure the moisture content was correct.

Next I cut the roughsawn boards to approximate length and hand planed the surfaces, using two wooden planes that I made from a little bit of the oak log.
Once the boards had flat mating surfaces I bonded them together with Elmers woodworking glue.

As I made each layer I trimmed away some of the excess wood along the sides using my bandsaw, then joined the layers to achieve the full height.

I used hand chisels and my hand plane for a lot of the trimming, to avoid taking away too much too quickly. I don't want this thing to need repairs before I have even used it.
I used a router, freehand, to trim away around the neck.

Now that I am getting to the fine details I'm using two different belt sanders and drum sanders as well as hand sanding.
The prototype shroud currently fits down to about an inch above the surface, so I know it's close.

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 2 2010, 05:09 PM

Here's a pic of the first "pilot production" shroud resting on the wooden buck.
Once I tweak the procedure a little, it should be pretty easy for me to turn these out.

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 2 2010, 05:25 PM

I don't know. It should be able to cool any engine you can build. I've been using a similar but less efficient setup on my race engines for years. The fan speed may need to be increased for some applications by changing pulley sizes.

This setup is about 10lbs lighter than the factory assembly.

It might look more period, but I guess I'm not really going for that look.
To me the three choices are: shiny aluminum, painted to match the car's color scheme, carbon fiber or hybrid colored kevlar/carbon fiber.

Posted by: lancelotIV Mar 29 2010, 03:50 PM

wow, Chris! this looks GREAT! You've come a long way since we talked @ 2 yrs. ago (I'm working on a RSK replicar and we talked about your potentially doing this project). I think Jake has tabled his 3rd Gen DTM as he's pretty busy on other amazing projects. How much are you thinking this system will weigh? How much less should the carbon/kevlar version be?

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 29 2010, 07:13 PM

Thanks! You know this would look very cool in a mid-engined Porsche replicar!!
The complete assembly will save at least 10 lbs compared to the removed stock cooling system but I don't have a complete set of production parts in hand yet so I can't state the exact weight.
Since the aluminum piece is quite light (about 12oz.), weight isn't much of a reason to switch to composites. The shroud represents only about 20% of the cost of production so switching to FG wouldn't save much, and CF won't increase the price drastically either. I really like the aluminum shrouds so I may need a big push to invest in a mold, unless demand exceeds my ability to produce hand fabbed metal works of art.

Unfortunately I had a minor setback today. The machine shop screwed up the entire first batch of billet crankshaft dual pulleys. They got the vee groove wrong on the front (alternator) pulley. At least they will be salvageable for full race engines with no alternator, like on my FProd car.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 29 2010, 07:33 PM

How about composite pulleys and associated brackets?

Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 29 2010, 07:49 PM

Now that would drive the price up!

Posted by: r_towle Mar 29 2010, 07:50 PM

Yet drive down the weight.

Composite pulleys can be purchased...just google for a while.
You can also buy 1/2 thick sheets of carbon fiber....just like aluminum.
It can be milled with all your tools...maybe not your handmade hardwood plane....

BTW, did you dig up the iron and smelt it, then forge the blade for the wood plane you made to make the buck?

Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 29 2010, 08:44 PM

LOL, no, but I do have books about backyard foundry technique and about toolmaking.
And I have made cutting tools from scrap iron before.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 29 2010, 08:48 PM

The story of creating the buck is lacking some very important steps..

First there was the quest for Fire......................................................................and then I finally installed the cooling tin

Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 29 2010, 10:50 PM

Very nice work Chris! You are a machine!

Posted by: Brando Mar 29 2010, 10:55 PM

The setup is so sexy with that intercooler.

I really, REALLY wish I had the money for a Turbo TIV and a 914...

A top-down setup for mid-eighties carreras coming soon?

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 30 2010, 09:37 AM

Hmm,
"Quest for Fire" - I liked that movie.

Posted by: Krieger914 Mar 30 2010, 08:21 PM

Chris how the hell did you know 26 years ago that you would need this wood for making this shroud?

Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 30 2010, 09:08 PM

It was the same year I bought my tangerine 914.