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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ My chassis twisted hardcore

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 17 2010, 08:04 PM

I braced the chassis, but obviously not enough. I lined the doors up properly, had the gaps correct, and then put the braces in. I took the braces out today, and went to test fit the passenger door and it won't even come close to shutting. the door lock does not line up, i tried adjusting the hinges but had no luck. The things are way off....any one have a fix? I really don't want to buy a tub because i just put a ton of work into this one. If it comes down to buying a tub, i guess thats what ill have to do, but i really would like to avoid that.

Posted by: nykthebartender Feb 17 2010, 08:24 PM

How much is way off? You can shim the door hinges where they bolt to the pillar. A shim in the top moves the rear of the door downward, a shim in the bottom moves it upward. Tough to say without seeing it though.

Posted by: scotty b Feb 17 2010, 08:26 PM

If the latch is out, how does the door line up with the body ? Tight at the top or bottome? Rocked in or out at the top or bottom ? Sitting high or low of the body ? There is a fair amount of play in both the hinges and the latches. Get the door and body lined up then worry about the latches.


Best yet, post some pics. poke.gif

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 17 2010, 08:29 PM

thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif

Posted by: yeahmag Feb 17 2010, 08:32 PM

Yeah... Take the striker out and close the door. Show us the gaps.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 17 2010, 08:33 PM

I did something similar wheb installing my cage. Went to a chassis shop up the street and had the fella bend the sucker. I had a tube to weld across the door gap (but down low) to hold it. It worked. I donno if it would have sprung back without the tube. Over bend (pre load) & pray is the way do do it before you do the work. Doing it after is iffy but has possibilities.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 17 2010, 08:52 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 17 2010, 06:04 PM) *

went to test fit the passenger door and it won't even come close to shutting

If the door is off in the up/down direction, simply open the door and grab the back and slowly pull it up until it lines up ...

That's how the body shop would fix it.
shades.gif Andy

Posted by: bobhasissues Feb 17 2010, 08:54 PM

What were you welding?
Engman kit
Clamshells
Other
As said previously, you have to post some pictures

Posted by: McMark Feb 17 2010, 09:31 PM

agree.gif we need a bunch more info/pics.

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 17 2010, 10:23 PM

I welded in clamshells over the longs and also put in new inner longs as well. The passenger door sits about 3/4" low at the back. The strikers are then that far off as well. I have tried pulling up on the bottom of the door, however, if i pull up too much the triangular window will just make contact with the windshield frame. ill try to get some pictures tomorrow. The door sits really low.

Shims in the bottom may help a little, but once again, too many and the window will make contact with the windshield frame. Im really excited that the chassis is super rigid, but i don't like not being able to shut my doors.

Posted by: davesprinkle Feb 17 2010, 11:00 PM

That sucks. The only real option is to cut a few slots through the new sheet metal to allow the car to spring back to its natural position. Then weld up the slots again. This time slowly. Do a couple inches, then use an air compressor to blow it cool.

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 17 2010, 11:25 PM

the weirdest part is that the door hangs low at the back...i don't think the car is unsafe to drive, its just the doors will not line up. The chassis is way stronger than it used to be. I took some measurements, and the car has shrunk...the gap from the windshield frame to the targa bar is the only severely off measurement, everything else seems right

Posted by: davesprinkle Feb 17 2010, 11:41 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 17 2010, 09:25 PM) *

the weirdest part is that the door hangs low at the back...i don't think the car is unsafe to drive, its just the doors will not line up. The chassis is way stronger than it used to be. I took some measurements, and the car has shrunk...the gap from the windshield frame to the targa bar is the only severely off measurement, everything else seems right


That's right, you've curled up the longs into a curve. The door sits low, the door opening is the wrong shape, the targa bar is too close to the windshield header, your wheel alignment is screwed.

It might be stronger, but it's definitely not better. I know this sucks to hear, but you need to try to undo this. You should cut a series of slots through the added sheet metal to relieve the stresses that you've locked into the car.




Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 18 2010, 08:21 AM

Don't bend the door! Fix the chassis. If you bend the hinges in the door frame you will build in a new problem. Someplace there are chassis dimensions. maybe here or on the bird site.

Or you can ge measurements off a known good car. Do you have a parts car with a good door opening? Even a rusted one usually had a driver side that is good (not sagging) You need to find out if the cowl is leaning back or if the latch pillar is leaning forward.

Don't assume anything check, check, check. Then cut through the chassis stiffening and use a port-o-power to adjust the gap back. You will have to push past the correct place because the car will spring back slightly wen you release the pressure.

Be sure you cut through the chassis stiffening before trying to push the car back. If you don't weaking the car you will just push damage in the car someplace else.

Good luck!

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Feb 18 2010, 09:30 AM

yup. show teh good chassis doctor your set up, bracing used, jack stand set up. how did you support the car.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 19 2010, 12:31 AM

I'm like 400 miles from you. (6 hrs) But I have a full dance card or I would gladly come down to help. Show us a couple photos maybe we can help figure out this puzzle.

Posted by: ghuff Feb 19 2010, 09:26 AM

Pics. You can recover from this.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 19 2010, 10:39 AM

http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php

Find out where you are. Then you'll know where to go. wink.gif

Posted by: Krank Feb 19 2010, 10:57 AM

Has anyone tried bonding stiffner panels in with the panel adhesives now available?

Posted by: yeahmag Feb 19 2010, 11:01 AM

That's a really interesting idea...

Posted by: kwales Feb 19 2010, 12:35 PM

Wouldn't do it.

They are designed for adhering non-structural body parts. They require really clean non-rusty metals, our are cars are old and rusty, and the rust never sleeps.

I can guarantee that if a rust bubble forms under a glue joint that the pressure from the growing rust cell is so large that it will delaminate the joint. Might take time, but a structural use would fail just when you don't want it- ie under a cornering load.

There are stuctual aircraft adhesives, but they work on clean aluminum.



Posted by: Rod Feb 19 2010, 02:41 PM

I can't offer help as I haven't been here, But I feel for you sad.gif With the advise and expertise here I'm sure you'll get it sorted though..

Cut those slits cut..

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 20 2010, 01:07 AM

So the windshield frame has come back towards the targa bar, which would explain why the pasenger door hangs low at the back. the measurement is about 1/8" off on each side. Right now i am trying to locate someone around illinois that has a frame rack and seeing what they can do. I don't want to cut anything until i get that opinion. I have ideas on how to fix it, however, to have a professional get the car dead straight is what i would rather have then me trying to pull this off. Anyone know of a place that can straighten out the frame?

At first i didn't think you could straighten a unibody car on a frame rack, but apparently its possible...just gotta find someone that can do it for me or give me their opinion.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 20 2010, 02:46 AM

Brad Mayeur at 914 Limited should have some idea of where you can find a rack for the car.

--DD

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 20 2010, 07:31 AM

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Feb 20 2010, 02:46 AM) *

Brad Mayeur at 914 Limited should have some idea of where you can find a rack for the car.

--DD


agree.gif I used to have a Cellette. That would be the best way.

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 20 2010, 11:24 AM

I have no problems towing the car to have it fixed, if i have to tow it 4 hours somewhere, i am fine with that. as long as it gets done correctly. The thing i don't understand is, since the car bowed into itself, how does a machine fix that?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 20 2010, 11:35 AM

Very powerful hydraulics. You may still need to make some cuts as recommended.

Andy can give you a very thorough explaination. His car was tweeked and "then" a cage was welded in. When he decided to have it fixed, the cutting of the cage "really" told the story of how far out they can be and what can be done to fix them properly. There's a picture here somewhere of that cut and a detailed thread on that fix.

Search (cause I'm to lazy to do it for you). biggrin.gif

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 20 2010, 11:44 AM

Also, that window frame doesn't really do "jack" for measurement purposes. I can bent one of those easily by hand. You'll get a bunch of various windshield frame measurements here that are probably 1/4" off. There "is" a standard top frame measurement BUT, get the proper jam measurements first and then worry about the frame.

Hit that link I sent you and get door frame measurements as Rick suggested.

Posted by: gopack Feb 20 2010, 11:52 AM

I just did a Google search for "celette bench shop" and one of the first hits was this one.

http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/the9146gt_celette

From that web site:

Attached Image

Looks like the best posible place to start! Even has 914 content and I didn't even include that in the search criteria!

P.S. i am just up the road from you in Madison (for now). If you ever need a hand (I'm not that useful) with a project taht requires more than 2 hands, give me a PM throught the site!

Posted by: jcambo7 Feb 20 2010, 07:46 PM

QUOTE(gopack @ Feb 20 2010, 11:52 AM) *

I just did a Google search for "celette bench shop" and one of the first hits was this one.

http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/the9146gt_celette

From that web site:

Attached Image

Looks like the best posible place to start! Even has 914 content and I didn't even include that in the search criteria!

P.S. i am just up the road from you in Madison (for now). If you ever need a hand (I'm not that useful) with a project taht requires more than 2 hands, give me a PM throught the site!

Thats cool! driving.gif

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 20 2010, 08:23 PM

QUOTE(gopack @ Feb 20 2010, 11:52 AM) *

I just did a Google search for "celette bench shop" and one of the first hits was this one.

http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/the9146gt_celette

From that web site:

Attached Image

Looks like the best posible place to start! Even has 914 content and I didn't even include that in the search criteria!

P.S. i am just up the road from you in Madison (for now). If you ever need a hand (I'm not that useful) with a project taht requires more than 2 hands, give me a PM throught the site!



That link is awsome! Read the post on the page. A Cellette rep posted is number and states he is in Lombard IL. About 75 miles from Rockford. Call him. He will know where the Cellette shops are.

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 21 2010, 10:24 PM

What makes the celette better than othe racks? Also, is there anything that will need to be removed from the car, bumpers, suspension, etc? Id like to take the car there as a rolling chassis that way its easier to get it on the trailor. the pictures show the car as just a shell, i was hoping i could leave the suspension on.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 21 2010, 10:46 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 21 2010, 10:24 PM) *

What makes the celette better than othe racks? Also, is there anything that will need to be removed from the car, bumpers, suspension, etc? Id like to take the car there as a rolling chassis that way its easier to get it on the trailor. the pictures show the car as just a shell, i was hoping i could leave the suspension on.


The Cellette is a fixture type bench. The one in the photos does not show the fixtures. They are using a lazer to check the car. It seems as though the Cellette rep was offering the shop the option of renting the proper fixtures.

I'm kind of under the impression the shop in that link is selling their service as a Porsche repair shop and showing the Cellette bench but doesn't rent the fixtures when they do chassis work.

Here is a link to Sir Andy's severly bent chassis. This was repaired on a Cellette with proper fixtures. I don't know what it cost him but this is how you fix a 914. Yes you will need to drop the suspension for the fixtures.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=92489&st=

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 21 2010, 11:15 PM

Lots more pix ...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=52631

You can rent the 914 specific fixtures for the celette bench. However, there's only two or 3 distribution centers left in the whole US that still have them.

smash.gif Andy

Posted by: Jeff Hail Feb 21 2010, 11:30 PM

The shop in the photos is Ed Palmer's. Aka EPR (Ed Palmer Racing) Eddy is first rate. He opened a second shop dedicated to Porsche only. I would recommend him in a heartbeat. How many shops have two 917's in process other than Gunnar?

The vehicle is setup on the Cellette in preparation for correction. The Genesis laser measuring system is accurate to 1mm. The Cellette hard fixtures are accurate to 3mm. Between the two systems you are going to get as perfect as can be. If perfect existed I'd date it!

A little history here: Ed has been doing this as long as I have. Excluding the marital issues Ed eats , breathes and nightmares Porsches. Ed has produced some of wildest German monsters that any other shop can come up with. Ed has also produced some of the most perfect restorations I have seen.

Funny thing. My car was given to me by Tony Davis who worked for Ed for many years. Both go back to pre Mitcom days. Yes thats how long both have been in the business. I feel ancient now!

Very few shops own their own fixtures. Most rent them from Eurocar. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 21 2010, 11:32 PM

Sir andy - if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to have the car puton the rack and be aligned?

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 21 2010, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 21 2010, 09:32 PM) *

Sir andy - if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to have the car puton the rack and be aligned?

Well, that's hard to say.

I did two cars at once. The red car took one day, the black/yellow car took 3 days.

For both cars and 4 full days of labor plus renting the Celette fixtures, my total bill was somewhere around $3000, if i recall correctly ...

shades.gif Andy

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 22 2010, 12:18 AM

does the place doing the chassis alignment rent the fixtures or is that something i have to locate?

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 22 2010, 12:26 AM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 21 2010, 10:18 PM) *

does the place doing the chassis alignment rent the fixtures or is that something i have to locate?

In my case, Scott the owner of the body shop has lots of experience working on 914s (He owns two).

The way it works is that the body shop owns the Celette bench and they rent the fixtures from Celette whenever they need them. The shop took care of all that.
Getting the fixtures took a few days as there's only one Celette distributor left here on the west coast that still has the 914 fixtures.

bye1.gif Andy

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 22 2010, 12:56 AM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 22 2010, 12:18 AM) *

does the place doing the chassis alignment rent the fixtures or is that something i have to locate?



I'd just call this guy. I'm sure he can tell you which shop in your area can bench your car.

Greg Fritz

Sales and Technical Support

630-396-6100 ext 6170 Office
630-495-4078 Fax

www.celette-na.com

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 22 2010, 11:54 AM

Found a body shop in my area with a celette bench, made a call and the owner said that fixing the car wouldn't wouldn't happen for under 5000, more towards 10000....im not paying that kind of money to fix a 3000 car, no matter the sentimental value i have in it. Time to find a shell or fix what i got.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 22 2010, 12:12 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 22 2010, 11:54 AM) *

Found a body shop in my area with a celette bench, made a call and the owner said that fixing the car wouldn't wouldn't happen for under 5000, more towards 10000....im not paying that kind of money to fix a 3000 car, no matter the sentimental value i have in it. Time to find a shell or fix what i got.


That's pure bullshit. They just don't want to deal with it. I am working on tracking down a Cellette bench in town here. I just spoke with a guy that used to own one. He sold it to another shop here in town. I have a call into them now. (small shop with a answering machine)

I placed a call to the Cellette rep and left him a voice mail as well. What a bunch of crap!

BTW, Fixture rental used to be 300.00- 450.00 shipped.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 22 2010, 01:08 PM

QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Feb 22 2010, 12:56 AM) *

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 22 2010, 12:18 AM) *

does the place doing the chassis alignment rent the fixtures or is that something i have to locate?



I'd just call this guy. I'm sure he can tell you which shop in your area can bench your car.

Greg Fritz

Sales and Technical Support

630-396-6100 ext 6170 Office
630-495-4078 Fax

www.celette-na.com



I had a conversation with a Cellette rep. He is emailing info about the fixture availability, location and cost. I can either get you hooked up with the local shop or if they are tired of the old Cellette collecting dust in the corner I may just purchase the thing.

This will happen whether you ever fix your car or not. I have The raspberry car with a missing front clip and Sandy's I'm picking up in Cali in like two weeks. It took a hit to the front.

Your inquiry just prompted me to do something I have been wanting to do for a long time anyway.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 22 2010, 01:16 PM

QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Feb 22 2010, 11:08 AM) *

Your inquiry just prompted me to do something I have been wanting to do for a long time anyway.

If you do, don't forget to make a 'backup copy' of the fixtures ...
shades.gif Andy

Posted by: carr914 Feb 22 2010, 01:35 PM

Turnaround, What happened to the pictures you were going to post?

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 22 2010, 02:23 PM

the pictures were on an external hard drive which makes a weird clicking noise when it starts up, the computer doesn't recognize it anymore...been going on for a couple weeks or so, my cousin is taking a look at...hopefully he can get the files off of it.

Anyway, the guy i talked to that has the celette bench has worked on multiple 911's, and seemed to know what he was talking about. His idea was to pull the whole car apart again and leave it on the frame rack and then reweld all the stuff back into the car. Lots of time right there. I made the floor pans and inner longs myself, and i really don't want to have to completely undo everything i just did. I don't mind cutting slots into the longs, but taking everything back out. no thanks

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 22 2010, 02:34 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 22 2010, 02:23 PM) *

the pictures were on an external hard drive which makes a weird clicking noise when it starts up, the computer doesn't recognize it anymore...been going on for a couple weeks or so, my cousin is taking a look at...hopefully he can get the files off of it.

Anyway, the guy i talked to that has the celette bench has worked on multiple 911's, and seemed to know what he was talking about. His idea was to pull the whole car apart again and leave it on the frame rack and then reweld all the stuff back into the car. Lots of time right there. I made the floor pans and inner longs myself, and i really don't want to have to completely undo everything i just did. I don't mind cutting slots into the longs, but taking everything back out. no thanks


No need to rip apart all your work. It doesn't matter that you made your own pans and inner longs. The Cellette works off the suspension pickup points not the floor or longs. I suspect the cowl is leaning back which would cause the doors to sag at the rear. This would put the front most suspension pickup points of the car high and out of line. Should be able to bolt on the check sets (four center most fixtures) and find the issue. I would say it would be a matter of vertical cuts through your longs, check the upper body diamensions and adjust the car.

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 22 2010, 04:47 PM

right now were beginning to pull apart portions of the car, to get correct measurements. the front suspension is gonna get pulled off today, and well keep measuring to see where the car is off.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 22 2010, 05:51 PM

I heard back from the shop. I really couldn't read the guy. I asked him if he was interested in selling the bench. He said he would think about it. I asked him if he was interested in fixing your car. He said he would think about it.
Ok, but he did tell me that the local frame and axle guy has the second design Cellette bench that only requires the top section of the redsigned fixtures, It's the MZ model. Shipping cost for the fixtures are less because the tops come in a suitcase not a friggin shipping crate. The only thing is there may not be fixtures for the older chassis'. I'm still checking.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 22 2010, 05:53 PM

QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Feb 22 2010, 03:51 PM) *

WTF.gif I don't get it...

Think about it ... biggrin.gif

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Feb 22 2010, 06:14 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 17 2010, 07:04 PM) *

I braced the chassis, but obviously not enough. I lined the doors up properly, had the gaps correct, and then put the braces in. I took the braces out today, and went to test fit the passenger door and it won't even come close to shutting. the door lock does not line up, i tried adjusting the hinges but had no luck. The things are way off....any one have a fix? I really don't want to buy a tub because i just put a ton of work into this one. If it comes down to buying a tub, i guess thats what ill have to do, but i really would like to avoid that.


I know that it is a long way but our man Kirk could get your car perfectly straight again in no more than a days work and 400 bucks. He is a master

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 22 2010, 06:38 PM

Id have to tow the car down to georgia, and that would be a lot....thats not a bad idea. I would bring the car down as a bare chassis, no motor, trans or suspension. Thats what were working on now...we accidentally broke one of the sway bar bolts head off. I may be able to pull that off, my brother lives in athens, i could just make a trip to see him and take the car to you guys as well. What if kirk would have to cut the car, would that add to the expense?


Posted by: scotty b Feb 23 2010, 06:57 PM

Rick, how about getting access to the one you know of long anough to get some god pictures and measurements. There isn;t that much there, and a bench could easily be replicated by you, or any one of us with the tools and experience. I know, I for one would have enough use to build one. I would imagine Perry might be interested too confused24.gif The the only issue is the fixtures........ idea.gif

Posted by: r_towle Feb 23 2010, 10:47 PM

QUOTE(scotty b @ Feb 23 2010, 07:57 PM) *

Rick, how about getting access to the one you know of long anough to get some god pictures and measurements. There isn;t that much there, and a bench could easily be replicated by you, or any one of us with the tools and experience. I know, I for one would have enough use to build one. I would imagine Perry might be interested too confused24.gif The the only issue is the fixtures........ idea.gif


agree.gif

I bet Andy could get some detailed pics of the bare bench.

Rich

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 24 2010, 12:04 AM

cool.gif--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scotty b @ Feb 23 2010, 06:57 PM) *</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Rick, how about getting access to the one you know of long anough to get some god pictures and measurements. There isn;t that much there, and a bench could easily be replicated by you, or any one of us with the tools and experience. I know, I for one would have enough use to build one. I would imagine Perry might be interested too confused24.gif The the only issue is the fixtures........ idea.gif
[/quote]


Here's what I know about the bench. The early Celettes have a machined deck like decking a cylinder head. The fixtures bolt to the cross beams. The early fixtures are like the ones in Sir Andy's photos. The later model Celettes have a standard upright fixture set that is part of the bench when you purchase it. The fixtures bolt to the top of the uprights. This only requires a large suit case of tops not and entire crate of parts.

That was the drawback of the old bench was shipping the fixtures around.

I know there are 914 fixtures for the early bench. I haven't verified ther are fixtures for the redsigned bench.

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread. I should have started a new one.

Posted by: shaggy Feb 24 2010, 12:23 AM

how thick were the plates you welded on?
regardless its going to take a great deal of force to bend the chassis back.
having worked on 914s structurally i dont think there is a good way to do this. by bending the chassis with the plates intact you are only stretching(weakening) the structure somewhere else. you best bet would be to slash cut your plates. if you can do that that will relieve the stress on the chassis then see how much(if any) the chassis corrects. if it dosent correct enough then id think about straightening and welding the plates while the chassis is on the fixture.

you said you replaced part of the body structure prior to plating correct? when you set the door gaps were the adjustments at their limits?
what welder and settings did you use to weld the plates on?

if this is an AX car or something you might as well cage it now and not deal with this problem again later.

did you weld the car on the ground? or on a lift? with or without suspension?

-jim

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 25 2010, 06:28 PM

I'm near a deal on the Celette. shades.gif

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 25 2010, 07:04 PM

so heres the plan that we finally came up with. My dad and i are going to try and fix the problem ourselves...we figured ive put enough work into it so far to at least give this a shot. if we can't fix it, then we will resort to a frame rack, and since rick is getting closer to a deal with the celette i would take it up there. If he does not make the deal, i would haul it to AA, sooner or later my car will be straight again.

Next week were gonna start trying to fix the car. sawzall-smiley.gif welder.gif

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 25 2010, 07:10 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 25 2010, 07:04 PM) *

so heres the plan that we finally came up with. My dad and i are going to try and fix the problem ourselves...we figured ive put enough work into it so far to at least give this a shot. if we can't fix it, then we will resort to a frame rack, and since rick is getting closer to a deal with the celette i would take it up there. If he does not make the deal, i would haul it to AA, sooner or later my car will be straight again.

Next week were gonna start trying to fix the car. sawzall-smiley.gif welder.gif


Use the chassis measurements listed here on the site. Measure everything twice and take your time. If you screw it up your no further off than you are now. Just be sure you check the car to be sure you know of the rear section is tipped forward or if the cowl is tipped back before you start trying to move things around.

Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 25 2010, 09:25 PM

Rick , I hope you get a bench ,
AArron @ Fat Six has a bench and the rental center for fixtures is in illinios.
http://flat6.com/?page_id=11


Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: 9146986 Feb 26 2010, 09:03 AM

I have an old Blackhawk bench, that I'm nearly certain will work with Celette fixtures. Where do you rent the fixtures?

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 26 2010, 10:17 AM

QUOTE(9146986 @ Feb 26 2010, 09:03 AM) *

I have an old Blackhawk bench, that I'm nearly certain will work with Celette fixtures. Where do you rent the fixtures?


Greg Fritz

Sales and Technical Support

630-396-6100 ext 6170 Office
630-495-4078 Fax

www.celette-na.com

Posted by: 9146986 Feb 26 2010, 12:40 PM

Thanks Rick! I felt kinda stupid after my post, as I found your prior post with his contact info wacko.gif

I spoke with Greg and it looks like the Celette fixtures will fit my bench!! aktion035.gif smash.gif welder.gif

Posted by: 9146986 Feb 26 2010, 12:46 PM

Didn't someone copy the fixture dimensions in CAD??? That would be way coooool.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 26 2010, 03:48 PM

QUOTE(9146986 @ Feb 26 2010, 10:46 AM) *

Didn't someone copy the fixture dimensions in CAD??? That would be way coooool.

We didn't have enough time and Mueller somehow wasn't too excited about doing all the grunt work himself. Go figure ...

rolleyes.gif Andy

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 26 2010, 03:56 PM

update: the drivers side door fits properly, shimmed the bottom and it works the way it should. All i have to worry about now is getting the passenger side door to shut and the targa top to fit correctly. I know the problem with the targa top is the the car actually rotated on an axis slightly. The top latches securely with three latches, but the passenger side one won't line up. You can also see the top overhangs the rollbar on the passenger side and doesn't line up there. My question is should i start with the targa top first and get that to fit correctly or work on the door? Either way i have to cut out some metal, just wondering if one should be done before the other.

My plan to get the targa top to fit would be to push under the corner of the car and rotate the car back the other direction. Cut the car almost in half(leave the center tunnel alone and intact), but the floor pans and longs would be cut. Then with a bottle jack, jack up the opposite side of the car(drivers side) rotating the chassis back into alignment. Measuring along the way from rollbar to door hinge plate, so things line up.

For the door, it would be similar but jacking the car apart parallel to the door opening itself. Since the door hangs down, at the back, having the car twisted back into alignment should fix, if not repair, that problem. I know the door opening has to be pushed further apart because the triangular window hits the windshield frame. This is where jacking the car apart in the door opening comes in, jack the car apart, somehow hold that spacing and place the door back on and make sure everything lines up.

I am open to any comments anyone has to modify my methods. I thought i would start this next week, but i have spring break from the 8th thru the 12th, plenty of time then to work on this.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 26 2010, 07:02 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 26 2010, 03:56 PM) *

update: the drivers side door fits properly, shimmed the bottom and it works the way it should. All i have to worry about now is getting the passenger side door to shut and the targa top to fit correctly. I know the problem with the targa top is the the car actually rotated on an axis slightly. The top latches securely with three latches, but the passenger side one won't line up. You can also see the top overhangs the rollbar on the passenger side and doesn't line up there. My question is should i start with the targa top first and get that to fit correctly or work on the door? Either way i have to cut out some metal, just wondering if one should be done before the other.

My plan to get the targa top to fit would be to push under the corner of the car and rotate the car back the other direction. Cut the car almost in half(leave the center tunnel alone and intact), but the floor pans and longs would be cut. Then with a bottle jack, jack up the opposite side of the car(drivers side) rotating the chassis back into alignment. Measuring along the way from rollbar to door hinge plate, so things line up.

For the door, it would be similar but jacking the car apart parallel to the door opening itself. Since the door hangs down, at the back, having the car twisted back into alignment should fix, if not repair, that problem. I know the door opening has to be pushed further apart because the triangular window hits the windshield frame. This is where jacking the car apart in the door opening comes in, jack the car apart, somehow hold that spacing and place the door back on and make sure everything lines up.

I am open to any comments anyone has to modify my methods. I thought i would start this next week, but i have spring break from the 8th thru the 12th, plenty of time then to work on this.



Let me try to break this down for you if I can. Porsche doors don't get shims. If the door required shims on the lower hinge the car is bent.

Here's a crude drawing of what you should try based on your discription.

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Get a hand pump port-o-power and carefully set it up in the car. The lower should be on top of the long in the corner against the rear bulkhead. The other end should be against a wood block about the height of the upper hinge. Take a mm tape measure and check your progress.

Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 26 2010, 10:41 PM

that is exactly what my passenger side door looks like when its on...that description worked perfectly, thank you. Would the method i described for the targa top going back into place work? Jack the opposing side so the car twists back into alignment.

When you show, make the cut in the metal, should i just make a slot on the bottom and follow it up around the corners or cut the hole thing all the way around?

Thanks for all the help!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 26 2010, 11:21 PM

Here's another crude sketch. I assume you used something like the Engman kit for a chassis stiffening kit. If you did just cut vertically through the kit as shown in red.

Also you seem to be saying the windsheild is off center from the targa bar.

The measurements should show the right side from the targa bar to the WS frame should be shorter than the left side. Also the diagonal should show the measurement from the right WS corner to the left targa bar should be shorter than the left SW to right targa.

So. As you push the cowl forward and even out the targa top opening the diagonal should straighten.


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Posted by: turnaround89 Feb 26 2010, 11:49 PM

what your saying is fixing the door, should also fix the targa top as well? makes sense....thanks again. Ill give this a try in about a week!!!!!

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 27 2010, 08:02 AM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Feb 26 2010, 11:49 PM) *

what your saying is fixing the door, should also fix the targa top as well? makes sense....thanks again. Ill give this a try in about a week!!!!!


Yes. That's what I'm saying. And remove the shims from the drivers door. It's bassackwards but fit the doors to the fenders then adjust he cowl to match the doors to the latch pillar.

Before you start trying to tweek the bottom of the car. (Which could be off by the way) I'm much less suspect of the platform having a twist than I am the upper body, Start as I instructed.

1.) make a diagram. Stick people work just fine.

2.) Confirm the cowl is back. From your discription this seems to be the case.

3.) confirm the rear body is not tipped forward or sagged. Doesn't sound like it is from your discription.

4.) Start by cutting only through the reinforcements you installed at the cowl.

5.) Start on the passanger side. (the worst side as you discribed)

You will notice as you move the cowl forward on the passenger side the driver side will move.

Think of a wire cube. If you push on one corner the whole cube moves. Uni-body cars are the same way.

Take your time. Think it through. Move the damage back. You will notice you will need to move push past the desired measurement because the car will act like a spring.

Good luck.

Posted by: turnaround89 Mar 4 2010, 02:41 PM

I want to give a big thanks to everyone that helped me out in this situation. the doors now work properly, the top fits better than when i originally bought the car. The chassis is rigged, but not twisted or bent anymore. the car is on the ground and all the doors work! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif piratenanner.gif piratenanner.gif piratenanner.gif piratenanner.gif piratenanner.gif piratenanner.gif

Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 4 2010, 03:57 PM

So tell us what you did! sawzall-smiley.gif smash.gif welder.gif

Posted by: drive-ability Mar 4 2010, 06:14 PM

I second that above request agree.gif smash.gif Great news, now what did ya do ? popcorn[1].gif

Posted by: turnaround89 Mar 4 2010, 06:21 PM

i did exactly what rick told me to do, i used a bottle jack, instead of the port-o-power, and pushed daigonally across the door jam. I had to cut both sides of the car at the same spot. When i cut the drivers side, all the stress was relieved and the car would move around in any way we wanted to. Along with jacking diagonally across the door jam we also pushed up from underneath, with another jack. At this point the targa top wouldn't fit correctly, but the doors shut. To get the top to fit, i placed a jack stand on the drivers side trailing arm mount. this pushed that corner of the car up, slightly rotating the car making the targa top fit way better then it did before. AFter everything was lined up how we wanted it, i started welding. switched sides this time, so the car wouldn't twist again. Got everything welded up, put the tires on and the car back on the ground and everything still works. I can now move onto the next project, bodywork and replacing the windshield. I actually managed to get the windshield out by myself. I have always wanted to redo that piece of vinyl thats right there underneath the windshield, so now is the best time to do it. And the seal that goes down there was as hard as a rock. I saved myself the 175 dollar of having someone else install the windshield, now i can spend it on a new lower seal

Posted by: Jon Fernandes Mar 4 2010, 06:27 PM

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Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 4 2010, 06:36 PM

QUOTE(turnaround89 @ Mar 4 2010, 06:21 PM) *

i did exactly what rick told me to do, i used a bottle jack, instead of the port-o-power, and pushed daigonally across the door jam. I had to cut both sides of the car at the same spot. When i cut the drivers side, all the stress was relieved and the car would move around in any way we wanted to. Along with jacking diagonally across the door jam we also pushed up from underneath, with another jack. At this point the targa top wouldn't fit correctly, but the doors shut. To get the top to fit, i placed a jack stand on the drivers side trailing arm mount. this pushed that corner of the car up, slightly rotating the car making the targa top fit way better then it did before. AFter everything was lined up how we wanted it, i started welding. switched sides this time, so the car wouldn't twist again. Got everything welded up, put the tires on and the car back on the ground and everything still works. I can now move onto the next project, bodywork and replacing the windshield. I actually managed to get the windshield out by myself. I have always wanted to redo that piece of vinyl thats right there underneath the windshield, so now is the best time to do it. And the seal that goes down there was as hard as a rock. I saved myself the 175 dollar of having someone else install the windshield, now i can spend it on a new lower seal



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Posted by: turnaround89 Mar 4 2010, 08:10 PM

Once again a BIG THANK YOU to everyone that has helped out. I may get lucky enough to drive the car sometime in may to school again. piratenanner.gif piratenanner.gif aktion035.gif aktion035.gif

Posted by: markb Mar 4 2010, 10:18 PM

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