I braced the chassis, but obviously not enough. I lined the doors up properly, had the gaps correct, and then put the braces in. I took the braces out today, and went to test fit the passenger door and it won't even come close to shutting. the door lock does not line up, i tried adjusting the hinges but had no luck. The things are way off....any one have a fix? I really don't want to buy a tub because i just put a ton of work into this one. If it comes down to buying a tub, i guess thats what ill have to do, but i really would like to avoid that.
How much is way off? You can shim the door hinges where they bolt to the pillar. A shim in the top moves the rear of the door downward, a shim in the bottom moves it upward. Tough to say without seeing it though.
If the latch is out, how does the door line up with the body ? Tight at the top or bottome? Rocked in or out at the top or bottom ? Sitting high or low of the body ? There is a fair amount of play in both the hinges and the latches. Get the door and body lined up then worry about the latches.
Best yet, post some pics.
Yeah... Take the striker out and close the door. Show us the gaps.
I did something similar wheb installing my cage. Went to a chassis shop up the street and had the fella bend the sucker. I had a tube to weld across the door gap (but down low) to hold it. It worked. I donno if it would have sprung back without the tube. Over bend (pre load) & pray is the way do do it before you do the work. Doing it after is iffy but has possibilities.
What were you welding?
Engman kit
Clamshells
Other
As said previously, you have to post some pictures
we need a bunch more info/pics.
I welded in clamshells over the longs and also put in new inner longs as well. The passenger door sits about 3/4" low at the back. The strikers are then that far off as well. I have tried pulling up on the bottom of the door, however, if i pull up too much the triangular window will just make contact with the windshield frame. ill try to get some pictures tomorrow. The door sits really low.
Shims in the bottom may help a little, but once again, too many and the window will make contact with the windshield frame. Im really excited that the chassis is super rigid, but i don't like not being able to shut my doors.
That sucks. The only real option is to cut a few slots through the new sheet metal to allow the car to spring back to its natural position. Then weld up the slots again. This time slowly. Do a couple inches, then use an air compressor to blow it cool.
the weirdest part is that the door hangs low at the back...i don't think the car is unsafe to drive, its just the doors will not line up. The chassis is way stronger than it used to be. I took some measurements, and the car has shrunk...the gap from the windshield frame to the targa bar is the only severely off measurement, everything else seems right
Don't bend the door! Fix the chassis. If you bend the hinges in the door frame you will build in a new problem. Someplace there are chassis dimensions. maybe here or on the bird site.
Or you can ge measurements off a known good car. Do you have a parts car with a good door opening? Even a rusted one usually had a driver side that is good (not sagging) You need to find out if the cowl is leaning back or if the latch pillar is leaning forward.
Don't assume anything check, check, check. Then cut through the chassis stiffening and use a port-o-power to adjust the gap back. You will have to push past the correct place because the car will spring back slightly wen you release the pressure.
Be sure you cut through the chassis stiffening before trying to push the car back. If you don't weaking the car you will just push damage in the car someplace else.
Good luck!
yup. show teh good chassis doctor your set up, bracing used, jack stand set up. how did you support the car.
I'm like 400 miles from you. (6 hrs) But I have a full dance card or I would gladly come down to help. Show us a couple photos maybe we can help figure out this puzzle.
Pics. You can recover from this.
http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php
Find out where you are. Then you'll know where to go.
Has anyone tried bonding stiffner panels in with the panel adhesives now available?
That's a really interesting idea...
Wouldn't do it.
They are designed for adhering non-structural body parts. They require really clean non-rusty metals, our are cars are old and rusty, and the rust never sleeps.
I can guarantee that if a rust bubble forms under a glue joint that the pressure from the growing rust cell is so large that it will delaminate the joint. Might take time, but a structural use would fail just when you don't want it- ie under a cornering load.
There are stuctual aircraft adhesives, but they work on clean aluminum.
I can't offer help as I haven't been here, But I feel for you With the advise and expertise here I'm sure you'll get it sorted though..
Cut those slits cut..
So the windshield frame has come back towards the targa bar, which would explain why the pasenger door hangs low at the back. the measurement is about 1/8" off on each side. Right now i am trying to locate someone around illinois that has a frame rack and seeing what they can do. I don't want to cut anything until i get that opinion. I have ideas on how to fix it, however, to have a professional get the car dead straight is what i would rather have then me trying to pull this off. Anyone know of a place that can straighten out the frame?
At first i didn't think you could straighten a unibody car on a frame rack, but apparently its possible...just gotta find someone that can do it for me or give me their opinion.
Brad Mayeur at 914 Limited should have some idea of where you can find a rack for the car.
--DD
I have no problems towing the car to have it fixed, if i have to tow it 4 hours somewhere, i am fine with that. as long as it gets done correctly. The thing i don't understand is, since the car bowed into itself, how does a machine fix that?
Very powerful hydraulics. You may still need to make some cuts as recommended.
Andy can give you a very thorough explaination. His car was tweeked and "then" a cage was welded in. When he decided to have it fixed, the cutting of the cage "really" told the story of how far out they can be and what can be done to fix them properly. There's a picture here somewhere of that cut and a detailed thread on that fix.
Search (cause I'm to lazy to do it for you).
Also, that window frame doesn't really do "jack" for measurement purposes. I can bent one of those easily by hand. You'll get a bunch of various windshield frame measurements here that are probably 1/4" off. There "is" a standard top frame measurement BUT, get the proper jam measurements first and then worry about the frame.
Hit that link I sent you and get door frame measurements as Rick suggested.
I just did a Google search for "celette bench shop" and one of the first hits was this one.
http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/the9146gt_celette
From that web site:
Looks like the best posible place to start! Even has 914 content and I didn't even include that in the search criteria!
P.S. i am just up the road from you in Madison (for now). If you ever need a hand (I'm not that useful) with a project taht requires more than 2 hands, give me a PM throught the site!
What makes the celette better than othe racks? Also, is there anything that will need to be removed from the car, bumpers, suspension, etc? Id like to take the car there as a rolling chassis that way its easier to get it on the trailor. the pictures show the car as just a shell, i was hoping i could leave the suspension on.
Lots more pix ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=52631
You can rent the 914 specific fixtures for the celette bench. However, there's only two or 3 distribution centers left in the whole US that still have them.
Andy
The shop in the photos is Ed Palmer's. Aka EPR (Ed Palmer Racing) Eddy is first rate. He opened a second shop dedicated to Porsche only. I would recommend him in a heartbeat. How many shops have two 917's in process other than Gunnar?
The vehicle is setup on the Cellette in preparation for correction. The Genesis laser measuring system is accurate to 1mm. The Cellette hard fixtures are accurate to 3mm. Between the two systems you are going to get as perfect as can be. If perfect existed I'd date it!
A little history here: Ed has been doing this as long as I have. Excluding the marital issues Ed eats , breathes and nightmares Porsches. Ed has produced some of wildest German monsters that any other shop can come up with. Ed has also produced some of the most perfect restorations I have seen.
Funny thing. My car was given to me by Tony Davis who worked for Ed for many years. Both go back to pre Mitcom days. Yes thats how long both have been in the business. I feel ancient now!
Very few shops own their own fixtures. Most rent them from Eurocar. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
Sir andy - if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to have the car puton the rack and be aligned?
does the place doing the chassis alignment rent the fixtures or is that something i have to locate?
Found a body shop in my area with a celette bench, made a call and the owner said that fixing the car wouldn't wouldn't happen for under 5000, more towards 10000....im not paying that kind of money to fix a 3000 car, no matter the sentimental value i have in it. Time to find a shell or fix what i got.
Turnaround, What happened to the pictures you were going to post?
the pictures were on an external hard drive which makes a weird clicking noise when it starts up, the computer doesn't recognize it anymore...been going on for a couple weeks or so, my cousin is taking a look at...hopefully he can get the files off of it.
Anyway, the guy i talked to that has the celette bench has worked on multiple 911's, and seemed to know what he was talking about. His idea was to pull the whole car apart again and leave it on the frame rack and then reweld all the stuff back into the car. Lots of time right there. I made the floor pans and inner longs myself, and i really don't want to have to completely undo everything i just did. I don't mind cutting slots into the longs, but taking everything back out. no thanks
right now were beginning to pull apart portions of the car, to get correct measurements. the front suspension is gonna get pulled off today, and well keep measuring to see where the car is off.
I heard back from the shop. I really couldn't read the guy. I asked him if he was interested in selling the bench. He said he would think about it. I asked him if he was interested in fixing your car. He said he would think about it.
Ok, but he did tell me that the local frame and axle guy has the second design Cellette bench that only requires the top section of the redsigned fixtures, It's the MZ model. Shipping cost for the fixtures are less because the tops come in a suitcase not a friggin shipping crate. The only thing is there may not be fixtures for the older chassis'. I'm still checking.
Id have to tow the car down to georgia, and that would be a lot....thats not a bad idea. I would bring the car down as a bare chassis, no motor, trans or suspension. Thats what were working on now...we accidentally broke one of the sway bar bolts head off. I may be able to pull that off, my brother lives in athens, i could just make a trip to see him and take the car to you guys as well. What if kirk would have to cut the car, would that add to the expense?
Rick, how about getting access to the one you know of long anough to get some god pictures and measurements. There isn;t that much there, and a bench could easily be replicated by you, or any one of us with the tools and experience. I know, I for one would have enough use to build one. I would imagine Perry might be interested too The the only issue is the fixtures........
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scotty b @ Feb 23 2010, 06:57 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Rick, how about getting access to the one you know of long anough to get some god pictures and measurements. There isn;t that much there, and a bench could easily be replicated by you, or any one of us with the tools and experience. I know, I for one would have enough use to build one. I would imagine Perry might be interested too The the only issue is the fixtures........
[/quote]
Here's what I know about the bench. The early Celettes have a machined deck like decking a cylinder head. The fixtures bolt to the cross beams. The early fixtures are like the ones in Sir Andy's photos. The later model Celettes have a standard upright fixture set that is part of the bench when you purchase it. The fixtures bolt to the top of the uprights. This only requires a large suit case of tops not and entire crate of parts.
That was the drawback of the old bench was shipping the fixtures around.
I know there are 914 fixtures for the early bench. I haven't verified ther are fixtures for the redsigned bench.
Sorry for hi-jacking your thread. I should have started a new one.
how thick were the plates you welded on?
regardless its going to take a great deal of force to bend the chassis back.
having worked on 914s structurally i dont think there is a good way to do this. by bending the chassis with the plates intact you are only stretching(weakening) the structure somewhere else. you best bet would be to slash cut your plates. if you can do that that will relieve the stress on the chassis then see how much(if any) the chassis corrects. if it dosent correct enough then id think about straightening and welding the plates while the chassis is on the fixture.
you said you replaced part of the body structure prior to plating correct? when you set the door gaps were the adjustments at their limits?
what welder and settings did you use to weld the plates on?
if this is an AX car or something you might as well cage it now and not deal with this problem again later.
did you weld the car on the ground? or on a lift? with or without suspension?
-jim
I'm near a deal on the Celette.
so heres the plan that we finally came up with. My dad and i are going to try and fix the problem ourselves...we figured ive put enough work into it so far to at least give this a shot. if we can't fix it, then we will resort to a frame rack, and since rick is getting closer to a deal with the celette i would take it up there. If he does not make the deal, i would haul it to AA, sooner or later my car will be straight again.
Next week were gonna start trying to fix the car.
Rick , I hope you get a bench ,
AArron @ Fat Six has a bench and the rental center for fixtures is in illinios.
http://flat6.com/?page_id=11
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I have an old Blackhawk bench, that I'm nearly certain will work with Celette fixtures. Where do you rent the fixtures?
Thanks Rick! I felt kinda stupid after my post, as I found your prior post with his contact info
I spoke with Greg and it looks like the Celette fixtures will fit my bench!!
Didn't someone copy the fixture dimensions in CAD??? That would be way coooool.
update: the drivers side door fits properly, shimmed the bottom and it works the way it should. All i have to worry about now is getting the passenger side door to shut and the targa top to fit correctly. I know the problem with the targa top is the the car actually rotated on an axis slightly. The top latches securely with three latches, but the passenger side one won't line up. You can also see the top overhangs the rollbar on the passenger side and doesn't line up there. My question is should i start with the targa top first and get that to fit correctly or work on the door? Either way i have to cut out some metal, just wondering if one should be done before the other.
My plan to get the targa top to fit would be to push under the corner of the car and rotate the car back the other direction. Cut the car almost in half(leave the center tunnel alone and intact), but the floor pans and longs would be cut. Then with a bottle jack, jack up the opposite side of the car(drivers side) rotating the chassis back into alignment. Measuring along the way from rollbar to door hinge plate, so things line up.
For the door, it would be similar but jacking the car apart parallel to the door opening itself. Since the door hangs down, at the back, having the car twisted back into alignment should fix, if not repair, that problem. I know the door opening has to be pushed further apart because the triangular window hits the windshield frame. This is where jacking the car apart in the door opening comes in, jack the car apart, somehow hold that spacing and place the door back on and make sure everything lines up.
I am open to any comments anyone has to modify my methods. I thought i would start this next week, but i have spring break from the 8th thru the 12th, plenty of time then to work on this.
that is exactly what my passenger side door looks like when its on...that description worked perfectly, thank you. Would the method i described for the targa top going back into place work? Jack the opposing side so the car twists back into alignment.
When you show, make the cut in the metal, should i just make a slot on the bottom and follow it up around the corners or cut the hole thing all the way around?
Thanks for all the help!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's another crude sketch. I assume you used something like the Engman kit for a chassis stiffening kit. If you did just cut vertically through the kit as shown in red.
Also you seem to be saying the windsheild is off center from the targa bar.
The measurements should show the right side from the targa bar to the WS frame should be shorter than the left side. Also the diagonal should show the measurement from the right WS corner to the left targa bar should be shorter than the left SW to right targa.
So. As you push the cowl forward and even out the targa top opening the diagonal should straighten.
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what your saying is fixing the door, should also fix the targa top as well? makes sense....thanks again. Ill give this a try in about a week!!!!!
I want to give a big thanks to everyone that helped me out in this situation. the doors now work properly, the top fits better than when i originally bought the car. The chassis is rigged, but not twisted or bent anymore. the car is on the ground and all the doors work!
So tell us what you did!
I second that above request Great news, now what did ya do ?
i did exactly what rick told me to do, i used a bottle jack, instead of the port-o-power, and pushed daigonally across the door jam. I had to cut both sides of the car at the same spot. When i cut the drivers side, all the stress was relieved and the car would move around in any way we wanted to. Along with jacking diagonally across the door jam we also pushed up from underneath, with another jack. At this point the targa top wouldn't fit correctly, but the doors shut. To get the top to fit, i placed a jack stand on the drivers side trailing arm mount. this pushed that corner of the car up, slightly rotating the car making the targa top fit way better then it did before. AFter everything was lined up how we wanted it, i started welding. switched sides this time, so the car wouldn't twist again. Got everything welded up, put the tires on and the car back on the ground and everything still works. I can now move onto the next project, bodywork and replacing the windshield. I actually managed to get the windshield out by myself. I have always wanted to redo that piece of vinyl thats right there underneath the windshield, so now is the best time to do it. And the seal that goes down there was as hard as a rock. I saved myself the 175 dollar of having someone else install the windshield, now i can spend it on a new lower seal
Once again a BIG THANK YOU to everyone that has helped out. I may get lucky enough to drive the car sometime in may to school again.
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