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Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 9 2010, 10:56 AM

Here is the latest from Bosal in Belgium. Although they make some superb products, as you can see the exchanger shell set is very expensive. Although he reduced the quantity, we would have to send over our original heat exchangers so they could make a perfect model and then still pay the euro price plus shipping for the 45 sets.
If we had all of the sets pre sold we would have to sell them for a minimum of 475.00 a set just to cover everything! As you can see it is just not practical. What do all of you think?


Dear Mr. Hussey,

I’m Leo Gommans, product development manager at Bosal Research in Belgium.
As development engineer I’m involved in our sub-project for classic car exhaust systems and we have been working with Ivo Verstraete from Porsche Classic Club Belgium on 914 mufflers.
I received the message below some time ago, it is related to the heat-exchangers for 914 2.0L.

I understand you are requesting a price indication for the heat-exchanger shells.
Herewith I would like to give you such an indication. You’ll understand a new set of tooling needs to be made and the cost of it has to be amortized over a number of parts.
We can offer a set of shells (L and R, i.e. 4 shells completing one vehicle set) for EUR 286,- excl. VAT, EXW. Bosal Lummen Belgium, for a first order quantity of 45 sets.

To avoid the risk of miss-matching of shells, I propose to start from an agreed set of (original) shells, in this case it should be best that you send us this set.

I hope this offer is fulfilling your expectations and could be the trigger for future cooperation.

Posted by: DanT Mar 9 2010, 11:01 AM

$475 for a pair of new SS heat exchangers would not be a bad deal....just to make sure I am getting the gist of this, this is for L&R complete heat exchangers?

that would be a screaming deal if you could get 45 folks to step up.

would these be completely SS..tubing, heat boxes and flanges?

Or are we talking just about the heat box shells? If so that is way steep on the price, plus how will they be joined around the exhaust pipes....rivets?

Posted by: Gint Mar 9 2010, 11:06 AM

Just the shells? What about the rest of the exhaust?

Posted by: underthetire Mar 9 2010, 11:11 AM

Kinda high for just shells IMO, but I think thats because of the week dollar.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 9 2010, 11:48 AM

Yes just the shells in stainless!!!!!

Posted by: rdauenhauer Mar 9 2010, 11:54 AM

I agree complete NEW HE's @ $475 is doable and I think youd find 45 buyers,
for just the shells ....no way

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2010, 12:02 PM

If anyone would be able to talk John at SSI into making another batch of SSI heat exchangers for our cars it would probably be you, George!

Give John a call, i bet you could talk him into it. Plus, he has all the tooling to make these. Complete with exhaust tubes and flanges and all.


I'm not sure if the phone number is still good, it's been a while since i last talked to John.

SSI
John Daniels
20 Pamaron Way
Novato, CA 94949
415-883-2000


Andy

Posted by: McMark Mar 9 2010, 12:10 PM

Yeah, even if you could just purchase the tooling from John, you'd probably be miles ahead vs. starting over.

Posted by: markb Mar 9 2010, 04:05 PM

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 9 2010, 05:22 PM

I love John to death, we have visited each other and stayed at each other's house and have spent many many hours talking.
Yes he would make another run if I would buy 200 sets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not think that I am man enough to commit myself to that kind of money. As I remember he needed to fix one of the tools or something. I doubt if all of us put together would want to purchase new stainless heat exchangers!

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 9 2010, 05:23 PM

I have asked him alot about the tooling and he just wants to sell the whole business not just the 914 tooling.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2010, 05:28 PM

200 sets is a big commitment but i bet you could sell these in a year or two.

You could supply all the other major resellers to reach a lot of customers.
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2010, 05:30 PM

Well, he's been talking about selling the business since i first met him in 2003.

Funny thing is, when he actually had the chance to sell it, he didn't want to let go ...
Andy

Posted by: Gint Mar 9 2010, 05:34 PM

Ha!

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 06:52 AM

Everybody wants 2.0 SSHE. If a set can be sold under 500$ public price, he should go for a world wide subscription plan and manufacture 200 sets that would be good for the 10 next years.

Subscriber list...

Autoatlanta USA
Pelican parts USA
Porsche Classic DE
Mittelmotor DE
914 Kfz Versand DE
Rose Passion FR
Arno Wienands NL

I also would contact all 914 Porsche clubs in the world...

Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 10 2010, 07:12 AM

But $ 500.00 with the pipes. The shells would be useless without the exhaust to match.

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 07:20 AM

Of course, this should be the price for complete parts.

500$ is amost the price used 2.0 SSHE sell on ebay.

Every 914 parts seller in the world would like to have theese on their pricelist quoted "in stock"

Posted by: 9146986 Mar 10 2010, 09:37 AM

What about mild steel? I'd be a little wary of putting stainless shells over stock exhaust pipes.

Even though we think of these parts as "lifetime", they aren't. They are exhaust pipes and will degrade eventually.

Posted by: McMark Mar 10 2010, 09:46 AM

Or at least that's what we were told. Maybe you have better info than me.

Posted by: McMark Mar 10 2010, 09:48 AM

Just thought of something else though, ya'll are talking about $500 SSI sets on eBay. If there IS a new production run they WILL NOT be $500. You can count on that. So $500 for shells might actually be more appropriate than we are thinking.

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 10:51 AM

My opinion, there is a very small market for shells alone. People want bolt-on parts. I wouldn't pay 500 for shells to weld on rusty tubes ...
I also think there is no neet to manufacture 1.7 and 1.8 SSHEs. If you rebuilt your exhaust you can also buy the 2.0 muffler bracket and go for a 2.0 Muffler (original or aftermarket).

Posted by: kwales Mar 10 2010, 11:29 AM

The 1.7- 1.8 heat exchangers are physically different from the 2.0's and you get muffler/heat exhanger misallignment if you mix parts.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 10 2010, 11:30 AM

I was there ... And had a chance to talk to the actual guy with the money.

Andy

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 10 2010, 11:37 AM

I agree except for the concours guys. On an added note I think that the stainless steel tubing was really too thin go get a good seal plus they were noisy. These days with the limited use and high collector value, I think making just steel factory duplicate exchangers would be perfectly sufficient for the market. Dansk has not made them for years but maybe could be persuaded to remake a run. Maybe you could ask them?

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 12:04 PM

Wouldn't it be cheaper to have them manufactured in the USA ? Those Dansk HE on your catalogue are 1000 $ each !!!!! Euro vs $ won't help ! ...
If SSI has the tooling for the shells he could also built them in regular steel.

Posted by: Tom_T Mar 10 2010, 12:54 PM

Reality check Y'all ......

I got a very nice set of used 2.0 SSI SS HE's last year on TheSamba for $450 & the current going rate used is $400 - $600+ used DoQ for a pair - and they were at $600 - $800 used before the economy tanked, so expect them to go up again when it recovers. BTW - it has SS shell & tubes but mild steel muffler flanges - so add $40 + welder's charge to weld a pair of Engman's SS flanges & to weld a crack at one of the down-pipe ears, plus XX hours to clean them up with a wire brush (what's your time worth?) ...... get my drift!?

IIRC new HE's for the 2.0 was +/- $1000 PER SIDE!

So $500 for a new pair of SS HE's complete is NOT realistic - maybe per side,but I doubt it. I'd guess more in the $700 - $1000 range per side complete & all SS would be reasonable at maybe 2x or so what used sets are going for.

George - I'd agree that getting SSI's tooling or them to restart is the way to go - even if a large order of 200 is required - or else buying the tooling if you can make another pass at John. I don't know him & his story like a lot of you do, but his SSI HEs were a great product for 914s & they'd be made in the USA - ostensibly with lower shipping & no duty & VAT (+/- 19.5% IIRC - making their $500 actually almost $600 + S&H to the USA) for the Belgium made ones.

George - I also agree with the others as to your being the source for the other suppliers - or you could just have SSI make the 200 & sell to all the sources if he doesn't want to give you the exclusive. To the above "subscriber" lists, I'd add:

Performance Products/Eckler's
Sierra Madre Collection
TC's Garage (Vista CA - Tom & Bev Gould)

... & notify just about every shop in the US, Canada & Mexico that works on 914s, as well as all of these 914 affinity websites (here, 914club, clubNARP, PCA's 914 Registry & Regions, etc.) - that they're now available again!

As an alternative to you're being an exclusive supplier of the "new SSI's" (or Belgium ones) - perhaps the other parts suppliers on the combined lists would go in with you for a piece of the initial 200 - thereby breaking it into 25 or 50 apiece?

George, have you looked back at your old business records to see how many HE's you'd sold in past years on average, when they were available? I would think that there are probably at least 50 - 100+ per year who either need them due to HE disintegration &/or choose to upgrade in a resto.

Posted by: markb Mar 10 2010, 01:05 PM

You could add us to that list.

Posted by: Tom_T Mar 10 2010, 01:11 PM

IIRC even our resident CW King Pat Garvey has SS HE's on his beloved 72 "Fritz"!

However, I'm sure his are 1.7 SS HEs, so you'd want to offer both alignment of 1.7 & 2.0 HE's - although all the tubing could use the larger diameter 2.0 size - as in the prior SSI's (maybe 1.8 & 75-76 2.0 are different too & need separate runs?). So I'd disagree with Johannes on that too, since only a few will want to upgrade/backdate to the 73-74 2.0 HEs & muffler.

I also agree with the full SS HE vs. shells - most of us really want/need/prefer bolt on replacement UNITS, & shells will only really appeal to the do-it-yursef crowd. In most cases, that would cut out your market for most commercial shops & dealers using it as a ready replacement for their customers.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 10 2010, 01:39 PM

There were never any SSIs for the 75/76 exhaust system. It's completely different than the earlier style.

Any new SSIs would be for 70-74 cars or later cars with backdated exhaust system.
I think a simple run of just 2.0L SSIs would be the best approach. Any 1.7/1.8 car can easily be changed over to the 2.0L exhaust design by adding a 2.0L muffler hanger and 2.0L muffler.

The biggest advantage is that John at SSI already has all the tooling to do this. If George could get a few of the parts outlets to commit to resell some of these, the cost for 200 sets should be manageable.

Andy

Posted by: MDG Mar 10 2010, 01:42 PM

What Andy said.

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 03:16 PM

+1 for Andy

A 2.0 aftermarket muffler is under $300 and a 2.0 Bracket (hanger) is under $50.

Posted by: RobW Mar 10 2010, 03:29 PM

+2 for Andy.

I'm sure SSI has no qualms about making money if they have the chance.. and its a pretty good product.

Then again, if its $800-$1000 like Tom T is halucinating.. then the super trick Tangerine exhaust comes more into play...

BTW - I got my nearly new SSI 2.0s for $260

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 10 2010, 03:34 PM

and this is the point. There are plenty available on e bay!!!! Why buy new?

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 10 2010, 03:50 PM

Well here is the latest! We all know how John always changes his mind, so here is the latest. He made a deal with a guy in Europe to produce 100 sets of mixed heat exchangers and gave him exclusivity for a year!
That means that he is shipping a hundred sets to europe where this guy will send them back to the states as he sells them!!!!
I had asked John many many times to make me a package deal but it was always that he would think about it and that it would take 200 sets. Now out of the blue he is called by the European offering him money and he makes a deal on the spur of the moment!!!!


Bottom line, we will now have production but at what price.

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 03:55 PM

I am curious. How much Mitt... this european dealer will price them ...

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 10 2010, 03:58 PM

Because we like new and shiny things!


Funny thing, when Rich (ArtechnikA) did the WCR in Reno (2003?) John gave me a set of brand new 2.0L SSIs still in the box to donate to the parts raffle.
During the raffle dinner at the car museum, i ended up winning the same set of SSIs i had brought with me.
They were of no use to me at the time (already had a set on my car), so i traded them with one of the other guys there.

Thing is, if they were available brand new today, i'd rather fork out the money and get a new set before buying used ones.
But maybe that's just me, i dunno.
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 10 2010, 04:02 PM

My guess would be Mittelmotor ...

It's going to be expensive for us here in the US.
Shipping over the pond TWICE, a hefty "Made in Shipped from Germany" markup plus the depressing exchange rate is going to kill the pricing for us ...

Andy

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 10 2010, 04:08 PM

I asked and John said that it was not mittelmotor! I am trying to make a deal to get 50 sets for us here.

Posted by: johannes Mar 10 2010, 04:08 PM

Not for me

Posted by: MDG Mar 10 2010, 05:00 PM

Do the deal - I'll take a set, George.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 10 2010, 05:11 PM

Ok sounds like another group buy. If I can make a deal who wants in? I figure if we can get 25 players we can do it. I just got off the phone with John, was talking to him for over an hour. He is improving the sealing flange at the head so that will be great. Call it new and improved, using a better grade stainless or something as well.
I know that the price has everything to do with it and it will be over 500 but not a lot depends on the guy buying the 100. With that said who would be interested? How about a count.

Posted by: johannes Mar 11 2010, 06:01 AM

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Mar 11 2010, 11:37 AM

I don't need one This is what $800 bucks cost me, SS with SS flanges than ceramic coated & polished.

BTW: I love these pics

Tom


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: johannes Mar 11 2010, 02:56 PM

They look awesome ...

Posted by: tod914 Mar 11 2010, 04:02 PM

Major bling, looks great Tom. George depending upon finalized price, I'd be interested. Alittle over $500.00, definite yes.

Posted by: johannes Jan 25 2011, 07:35 AM

Did someone lie in the process ???

http://www.mittelmotor.de/content/news/activenews_view.asp?articleID=72

1190 EUROS a set + shipping ...

Posted by: tod914 Jan 25 2011, 08:38 AM

roughly $1620.00 + ship. They certianly look nice.

Posted by: r_towle Jan 25 2011, 08:50 AM

So, you dont think your man enough for John?

Posted by: Bartlett 914 Jan 25 2011, 09:24 AM

Back to the issue of replacement shells, a real danger here is carbon monoxide. If you are installing SS shells over carbon steel pipes, eventually you will have a rusted through pipe emitting exhaust gas into the cabin. Also, how are these shells to be attached? If not seam welded, then you will have leaks and a lot of losses.

Posted by: JmuRiz Jan 25 2011, 09:43 AM

Dang, that's seriously cool, but serious money. My used SSI 2.0s will be for sale unless someone buys them with the motor...for less than 1/2 that.
I just think it's better to shop for a used set, but that's just me.

Posted by: johannes Jan 25 2011, 09:50 AM

Used sets start to be very expensive ... I have seen sets sold for 800 +

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Jan 25 2011, 11:10 AM

The deal for the 100 sets of newly manufactured 2.0 heat exchangers went down and John says that the new ones are a different alloy that is actually improved over the old originals. The alloy he used back then would after awhile corrode and the chromium depletion will not occur. The old ones were not annealed.
The price will probably be higher as the run was so small.

Posted by: johannes Jan 25 2011, 11:22 AM

So he finally made a batch of 200 sets for Mittelmotor and told you this was not for them ... And now they have the exclusivity for 5 or more years . Thats it ? ...

I need another job ...

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Jan 25 2011, 11:40 AM

He SAID that he made only 100 sets and not for Mittelmotor but for another guy. He actually told me but I did not recognize the name so forgot it. John said that he was going to forward my e mail so that maybe I could purchase some sets! And all of this after I asked him over and over to make another run and I would buy them!
I guess we Americans are just not strong enough to pay the price as the Euro is so much stronger!

Posted by: johannes Jan 25 2011, 11:48 AM

1190 Euros is not cheap. Even for Europe ... I bet Mittelmotor won't sell a set every week ...

Posted by: Root_Werks Jan 25 2011, 11:49 AM

I paid less for my Type3 and the heater works great.



Not that I would have the money to buy a set, but it would be interesting to read comments from folks who install these new sets. One of the complaints I have about my SS HE's is the volume of noise they produce. It's annoying vs the stock HE's.

If ceramic coating helps, I'm taking mine off and sending them in.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jan 25 2011, 02:14 PM

I still have one NOS set of 2.0L SSI's with the SS flanges available if anyone is interested. NIB only opened for photos, more pics available. Make me your best offer. These can ship and be on your car immediately they are not vaporware.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 25 2011, 04:40 PM

You're a sick man Bliz!

Posted by: kwales Jan 25 2011, 09:54 PM

I got a set just like that except my wife decided to recycle the cardboard- without telling me.

Posted by: 9146986 Jan 25 2011, 11:28 PM

The muffler flanges look great, but the cylinder head flanges look like the same too thin stuff. I'll bet they are 1/3 the thickness of the stock h/e's!

If it's not Mittlemotor, could it be Lothar Stockl?

Posted by: nsr-jamie Jan 26 2011, 06:17 AM

I am a tool and die maker and machinist...if I could fix his problem with the die could I get a few free sets? Do you know what happened to the dies? One problem is that I am located here in Japan.....if I could only get your die here I could fix it perfectly and tune it as well. I specialize in press stamping dies.

Posted by: nsr-jamie Jan 26 2011, 06:20 AM

Where did you get that exhaust set up? Cool for sure? Are they still available?

Posted by: crxnug Jan 26 2011, 07:44 AM

i need a set so hopefully the price is not to high

Posted by: 9146986 Jan 26 2011, 01:36 PM

I'm guess Patrik Hess has bought out Lothar Stockk?

It looks like the SSI's could be coming from him:
http://www.914er-teile.de/en/index.php

Not to bag on our Euro friends, but the Europeans are very into exclusive deals.