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Posted by: mike_the_man Apr 5 2010, 11:23 AM

Hi all,

I've been needing an engine rebuild for quite awhile now. I finally pulled out the tired old 2.0L and I'm in the process of putting in a 1.8L to drive while I do a rebuild.

My plan (dream?) the entire time has been to buy a Raby 2056 kit and do the build myself. I'm pretty sure the last time I looked, the kits were around $3600. At that price, I'd say it was a no brainer. I had another look at the Type4Store site yesterday, and I see the kits are now $6000. I know Jake builds great stuff, and I'm sure the price is still worth it, but it's a little harder to justify the cost at the price point.

Does anyone have any insight as to why the cost has jumped? Is Jake still active on here (haven't seen him post much lately)? Any suggestions on alternatives? What should I do? I was hoping to get some more power out of the 2.0L and I know that's not cheap.

Thanks,

Posted by: RobW Apr 5 2010, 11:26 AM

I think its supply and demand... lots of demand for Jake, and limited supply of time... for that kind of change I'd push for a 2316..

Posted by: Racer Chris Apr 5 2010, 11:30 AM

I'm pretty sure the single biggest difference in price is due to the fact that the kits now all come with brand new cylinder heads. The old price you mentioned would have been without new heads.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Apr 5 2010, 11:35 AM

it's been a while since the 2056 kit was 3600 I thought.. IIRC last year it was about 4500... and this year I think he said something about ONLY new head castings? so idk. but for the 6k mark, I'd spring for the 2270 kit over the 2056, yea it's $700 more, but it's 60 hp more too..

or only spend 5k and get the McMark 125hp 2056 and save 1000 (plus the time saved assembling)

Posted by: flipb Apr 5 2010, 11:39 AM

They also used to have dual 40mm Carbs for $700, but I don't see that anywhere in the store anymore... no carbs anywhere I can find. Maybe he's withholding the carb kits til the new throttle linkage is ready?

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 5 2010, 11:48 AM

Shameless plug but... Mike if you want to start collecting I have a 80mm crank and rods from Raby here in Canada.
I want full pop but I'll save you the ultra expensive FedEx shipping he uses and border taxes.

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 5 2010, 11:48 AM

I lurk here everyday, just seldom post... Been really busy updating our property, remodeling our first building and getting building #3 ready to move into this month.. And on top of that its the season we hate when everyone rushes that should have been preparing for spring back in October...

Haven't you noticed that most everything has went up in price?? Hell, last week I noticed the price of a candy bar went up by 20 cents!

What you don't realize is the fact that you are now comparing apples to oranges... In times past we had a 2056 kit that was available in four different levels of output. When I restructured the engine kit program I omitted all of the 2056 kits except for one, which was the "914S" kit, it just happened to be the most expensive, but also the most popular.

So, today you are comparing the old price of the cheapest offering of the four to today's price of the only remaining 2056 kit, which is of course the most expensive... So the prices really didn't change that much, just the other kits were pulled from the line up. The "914S" kit is only 400.00 more than it was in 2008.

The 2056 kit that I kept was the most popular small displacement kit we had for the 914, because it was designed for use with the stock EFI system exclusively. For the money the 2270 kit is a much better value, but you can't use stock FI with it.

I restructured the entire kit program, updated the offerings to produce the latest power from my line up and then ended up streamlining the entire buying process and the way we carry out prep and service.

With the economy taking a dump the cost of the kit components increased on our end and at the same time the supply of parts that we use to comprise the kits diminished, which made it a nightmare to fill orders. Our business has stayed amazingly strong through the economy, but it has indirectly impacted us because our suppliers are hurting and no longer fill our orders in a timely manner. When the orders are filled 1/2 the parts are placed on back order, it makes for a real bitch to operate a kit program and a turn key engine program on a determined schedule.

We didn't sell a single kit for over 8 months and I had thought about killing the program because it was such a pain to fill orders and the prices went up so much... People screamed when I wanted to kill the program, so I spent the time to totally reconstruct it. I knew if I did kill it that someone else would take advantage of all our hard work and success over the last decade with the kit program, so I had to keep going. Since I had to keep going I made it better.

Here are the pages with all the updates made including the newest power point presentations, I just finished these last week.

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=67

The biggest change to the kit program was the way we support the build, its now a very defined process with exact standard operating procedures. People took advantage of us for two years, so I changed the way we support the kits.

The kit program had buyers before we even released the new program, we now have a 3 month waiting list already, something I had hoped wasn't going to happen.

All the details are on my site, in the store and of course the best place to look is on our forums.

Yes, the price went up. Yes, EVERY kit we offer gained at least 5% more power than it's predecessor from the 2008-2009 kit program.

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 5 2010, 12:00 PM

Nope, removed them completely from the catalog... Had big issues with purchasers demanding support when they bolted the carbs on and the engine didn't magically perform.

In every instance someone had a worn out engine, crappy dizzy or an exhaust system that wasn't up to the task.... The engine ran like crap before, so they bought new carbs and the problems still existed, because the issue wasn't fuel delivery in the first place!

I had four people send us carbs that supposedly didn't work along with their dizzy and we put them on a test engine on the dyno, in every instance the issue was the dizzy- try making someone understand that...

Now we are only selling carbs to engine kit and turn key engine purchasers. When I restructured the store I killed every product that required serious after the sale support, or offered the opportunity for a "finger pointing exercise"..

We simply don't have time for it.

Posted by: mike_the_man Apr 5 2010, 02:07 PM

Thanks Jake, I was hoping you would respond. I certainly understand that with the economy in the crapper that prices would go up. I didn't realize that you had completely changed the way you offer kits. Your explanation makes lots of sense, and I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

I was thinking about the 2270 kit as well, but I'd need to buy carbs or FI, which adds a fair chunk to the price, though my stock FI is pretty well shot anyway, and I'm not real keen on using it again. MPSs are getting too expensive and I don't really want to be tied to them.

Jake, you're still selling carbs with engine kits? Can you tell me the cost? What about the SDS FI that you used to sell? Are you still using that? That would be my ideal solution.

Thanks,

Mike

Posted by: mike_the_man Apr 5 2010, 02:09 PM

Mark, are you still working with Jake on engine builds? I believe at one time you were the Canadian distributor? I can only imagine how much shipping a crate of engine parts across the border would cost.

Cheers,
Mike

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 5 2010, 02:19 PM

Maybe drive it across the border & ship it from the closest US shipper, then do reverse for return delivery?

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2010, 02:40 PM

I can answer the SDS question. Jake no longer handles SDS. All EFI sales are refered to someone you can find under the EFI section of the aircooledtechnologyforums site. Sorry, I do not recall his name. Again, this is something that took to much support time. When you call Jake about something, you are taking his concentration away from what he should be doing which is building and breaking in engines on the dyno. If you go with SDS, there are guys who can help you tune on his website under that EFI tab.

Posted by: rebelmdot Apr 5 2010, 02:56 PM

Unfortunately that is smuggling, unless cleared through Customs at the Border. Please don't do that.

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 5 2010, 02:59 PM

Bill at Gotronix gets all our referrals for SDS these days, the support was a killer on that as well.

Canadian sales are still pretty strong, despite the fact that I am not as flexible on shipping to Canada as some purchasers would like. The USPS is the best way to receive shipments in Canada, but offers only marginal security for us as the shipper in the way of insurance and etc. Fed Ex isn't cheap or easy to deal with but they keep us from having lost shipments and if something does get lost it has a tracking number, which helps.

I could have many more Canadian sales if we wanted to take the risks of USPS shipment and were willing to falsify shipping documents to reflect lower than actual costs on the components being shipped.

Mike_the_man,
Yes we sell carb kits with engine kits if you desire, their cost is 700.00 and they come pre-jetted for that particular kit and your elevation.

Posted by: mike_the_man Apr 5 2010, 03:00 PM

I don't think he meant to smuggle it across the border, just to have it shipped close to the border, then drive it across, claiming it and paying duty etc. It's usually the brokerage and shipping fees that really kill you when shipping into Canada.

Posted by: rebelmdot Apr 5 2010, 03:16 PM

I wasn't suggesting that he was, a lot of people are not informed about international moving of cargo and did not want anyone to get in trouble. No worries, good luck with the engine.

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 5 2010, 03:33 PM

Correct - I just meant that he is close enough to the border to do the cross border leg himself, then have more & less expensive options from a US side town.

IIRC, it was less expensive for an individual to bring something like a core engine across the border themselves (under the declaration/tariff limit?) than to ship it via commercial carrier, but not sure if it would save anything customs cost wise coming back as a finished product - but would still benefit from other/cheaper shipping options to a northern US town. I've heard of Canadians across from Detriot & in BC doing it that way for the same reasons, esp. on used parts.

A call to US & Canadian customs is definitely in order to figure that out.

Also since the Raby 2056 builds are NLA, you can check with McMark in Napa CA for his "Raby approved kit rebuilds" at $5k so you can keep the D-jet if you want, but similar issues on the shipping vs. you drive part way options as above.

Good Luck & Cheers!
Tom
///////

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 5 2010, 03:39 PM

BTW - he's already losing out on the US - CAN dollar exchange rate, so any little bit might help - esp. on a full engine rebuild vs. kit parts!

Posted by: MDG Apr 5 2010, 03:42 PM

No, not NLA. Actually, what Jake said was the 2056 '914S' kit for EFI is the one he is still doing . . . . . .

Posted by: MDG Apr 5 2010, 03:44 PM

the dollars are on par so there would be no losing out; Cdn will be higher by the end of the month and is forecast to stay higher until the fall.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2010, 03:58 PM

I quit shipping to Canada for a while. Without exception I was always asked to declare the value as $50 or check the box for gift. It is illegal from our end as well. There are fines for false declaration and potential jail time. Really, we love you guys but change your laws. Don't ask us to be complicit in breaking them.

Posted by: MDG Apr 5 2010, 04:04 PM

First I have heard of that. I have had many parts deliveries from all the usual suspects and many others from member vendors on this site. No one has ever brought this up. And I ship back and forth across the border on a daily basis in my company. What carrier was this BTW?

Posted by: Tom_T Apr 5 2010, 04:07 PM

Mike - I meant that he's no longer doing any 2056 full rebuilds himself anymore, only 2270 & up, so McMark's the source for them for those of us lacking the skill/tools/time to do ourselves. I did see the kit there.

As to your exchange rate prediction - DANG - no more 85 cent coffee when I go up to BC!!!!

Posted by: gothspeed May 14 2010, 11:37 AM

Just when i thought the kits were within reach, they went up ........... I guess I will go the 'full' hands on method now

Posted by: JmuRiz May 14 2010, 01:00 PM

I'd say the current kit offerings are a good deal for the DIY'er...for what you get. Heck when I'm ready I may learn how to build a motor with one of the 2270 kits...since I can't afford what I really want (a ~200+hp big 4 complete engine from Jake).

Posted by: thomasotten May 15 2010, 10:36 AM

Mine was like 3300 with a 20% discount from the "original" radio show. It came with new heads, even a new clutch. It is a 2056 which is plenty of power and it makes the car really fun to drive.

Posted by: Drums66 May 15 2010, 01:17 PM

......cool,that price seems more reasonable.....drive on

Posted by: Jake Raby May 15 2010, 09:52 PM

Cost is only a small portion of true "value". Today's kits are more powerful than their predecessors and use the most advanced camshaft and cylinder head profiles.
Though the net costs are more, the added performance helps to create a good balance that still keeps us buried with kit sales.

Today's kit cost US more than 3,300.00 to produce. Prices have increased steeply over the last few years for quality parts with us making and modifying more of our own components simply to maintain the quality that is always more important than reduced cost.

The kits still include all the new components for a longblock assembly, to include a clutch arrangement. They also come with full dynamic balancing.

It is possible to build an engine of the same size for less money, it is impossible to build a more efficient, easier to assemble and more proven engine than our kit for less money. Some try, I don't know of one that spent less in the end.

Its not for everyone.

Posted by: gothspeed May 15 2010, 11:29 PM

Cool