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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Now we have Startie- but the idle is way off

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 5 2010, 07:55 PM

This winter I pulled the motor and transmission out of my 70- to fix the transmission issue I was having. I bought a good transmission after running out of time before spring (I was working on rebuilding a side shift) and put it on and reinstalled the motor.

I hooked up everything just as it was- but now it won't start.

I have fuel, I have spark, it cranks over strong, but it won't ignite.

So far I have gone through the 12 pin wiring harness for ignition (starter, backup lights, Air Sensor, Oil Pressure switch, Coil, and Fan). I rebuilt it since there were small breaks here and there.

I replaced the points & condensor. Gapped the points appropriately.... (.016in).

Can you plug any of the FI wiring in backwards? Everything kind of just fell back into place since it's been that way for 40 years. It would feel awkward to plug something in wrong.

The car started immediately before and ran near perfect (best running 914 I've owned yet)- now it won't start. I did replace the fuel lines while I was in there as well (they were old). Any ideas? What could I be missing?

Posted by: realred914 Apr 5 2010, 08:08 PM

timing way off, spark plug wires mixed up are my first guess seeing you say you have good spark and fuel.

however you might have too much fuel (ie flooding) that can be caused by a bad head temp sendor (open circuit) or the manifold pressure sendor.

test the head temp sendor for ohms, shoudl be a couple thousand when cold, be sure to wiggle the wire when you test, they oft break and contact intermitatnly if it is high ohms or jumps around when wiggled that may be it.

make sure you pressure sendor is holding vacuum (if it got dropped or such it could have cracked) also carefully reinsepct the wires to the presure sendor, and throttle switch lift up the rubber boat and inspect , sometimes only one wire is barely hanging by a strand and it touched once and a while.

that is were id be looking for now

Posted by: 76-914 Apr 5 2010, 08:14 PM

You said you R&R'd the fuel lines. Did you get them crossed? It's easy to do. I know! The pump will dead head.

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 5 2010, 09:39 PM

Timing and plug wires were never changed. I pulled the motor in tact. I did not disassemble the motor at all- just unplugged stuff to remove it from the car.

You can cross the fuel lines? I don't think I crossed them, but it won't hurt to double check.

It may be flooding- I know I have fuel because I can smell it- so I'll check those sendors.

Thanks guys- at least I have something to do now other than scratch my head....

Posted by: r_towle Apr 5 2010, 10:02 PM

you smell fuel? then its ignition.

Check all the FI wiring, make sure its all plugged into the relay board.
If you find that you have the pump hooked up correctly, then pull the injectors and while leaving them hooked up to the fuel rail put them all in the little glass baby food jars...
Turn over the car for 30 seconds and see if they are firing.

Rich

Posted by: Rand Apr 5 2010, 10:41 PM

Everything said is right on.
You say you have fuel and spark but it won't fire.
Can't be compression because it ran fine before and nothing could have affected that.
That leaves timing.

It's either timing (or plug wires are connected wrong - same issue), or your fuel or spark isn't what you think.

How did you check fuel and spark?

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 5 2010, 11:04 PM

I checked spark with a spark tester- you hook your plug wire to one end and ground the wire to the negative battery terminal- if it arcs inside the tester you know you have spark!

I checked the main line coming out of the coil and both front two cylinders.

I did replace the relay board in the transition. When I reinstalled the motor and cranked it over the first time, the starter engaged but didn't didn't engage the flywheel. Then it wouldn't stop running when the battery was connected. I replaced it, the ignition switch in the column and the relay board. The relay board had been the issue. Now it tries to start normally again and stops when the key is not in the start position.

I do have a surplus of baby jars right now- so I'll give that a shot tomorrow.

Thanks guys.

Posted by: markb Apr 5 2010, 11:10 PM

Trigger points plugged in?

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 5 2010, 11:14 PM

Yes- the trigger points are plugged in. I had that bite me on a 71 several years back. Car wouldn't start- they were plugged in but one wire had broken inside the end. Once I found that broken wire it fired right back up....

Unfortunately, the issue I'm having now must be new to me.....

Good call though!

Posted by: kkid Apr 6 2010, 12:10 AM

Did you hook up the fuel lines in the engine compartment as it should be?
You may wanna double check the diagram just one more time since you've replaced the fuel lines.

Good luck!

Posted by: vsg914 Apr 6 2010, 06:41 AM

Two things. First, as mentioned, is crossed fuel lines. Second is the 14 and 12 pin connectors. It is possible to plug them in one pin off.

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 6 2010, 07:01 PM

OK- so it's no fuel now.

What's odd is- it got fuel fine when I started this- but now the fuel pump doesn't even come on with the key. I hear it making clicking noises as I try to start the car, but no fuel comes out of the injectors.

Fuel lines are not crossed- I double checked with the book. Head temp, manifold pressure- both good.

Wiring appears to be all in tact, and in the right places, the 12 and 14 pin connectors are spot on and I even tried a known good relay for the fuel injection.

So that's where I'm at- no noise from the fuel pump except the clicking. No fuel from the injectors....

Back to scratching my head - and maybe another beer....

Posted by: vsg914 Apr 7 2010, 06:41 AM

No fuel pump running. Key switch (seems to have been a rash of them lately), fuse on relay board, fuse at main fuse block, pump unplugged.

Posted by: ericread Apr 7 2010, 12:52 PM

Aha! You need the pbanders ( ) fuel pump debug troubleshooting flowchart:

http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/FPChecklist_frame.htm

Follow it closely. It solved my fuel pump problems. And besides, Paul is one fart smeller...

Eric Read

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 12:25 PM

The PBAnders Flow chart got me solved... I got to the point where I knew it was a ground - then had lot's of fun tracing it down to a ground wire that was broken.

IT RUNS NOW THOUGH!

Unfortunately, it rev's high now. I'm going to look at timing etc. I've repaired so many broken wires, vacuum lines, and other misc crap having my engine out that I probably messed up the timing or tune that the PO had. It's too bad I screwed with it- this car ran better than any of my other 914's before I had to do transmission work.

Posted by: Tom Apr 10 2010, 12:31 PM

Could be that the PO tuned it with some wire broken ( unknown to him at the time), now that you have fixed some things, the idle may be high because of that. Try turning down the idle screw first and see how it runs.
Tom

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 03:06 PM

Not the idle screw- bummer.....

Still trying to get it timed...seems the mark is either no longer visible or I'm so far off it's not funny. Tried to check and see if I was 180 out (I had removed the distributor to put in new points and condensor) but that wasn't the case.

No luck so far....beautiful day here, too bad I'm wrenching instead of driving.

Posted by: vsg914 Apr 10 2010, 03:11 PM

High idle could be a vacuum leak. are all the exrtra holes on the plenum plugged? all hoses attached? Hose off decel valve will cause a 2000 rpm idle.

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 04:08 PM

My idle is between 3500 and 5000 depending on weather the vacuum is plugged into the dizzy or not.

Posted by: tod914 Apr 10 2010, 04:10 PM

Timing too far advanced maybe? If you line up the nut on the outside of the vaccume canister with the bail on the oil filler, it should get you close. Maybe you'll be able to see your timing marks then. Basicially have the vaccume canister bisect the bail.

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 04:15 PM

This is the second time I've been up against something like this. I failed the first time- ended up basically giving the car away (I was moving, didn't have the time I needed to figure it out).

I'm not giving up this time though. I'm just afraid of what I'm going to run into. When you find loads of vacuum leaks and the car is running great- you never know how it'll run when you start "fixing" it. You know?

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 04:46 PM

Can anybody point me to a good vacuum diagram for a '70 D-jet system?

Posted by: BiG bOgGs Apr 10 2010, 04:54 PM

http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/technical_specs/914_17FI_diag.htm

Posted by: gasman Apr 10 2010, 05:19 PM

Don't forget the AAR....this is a controled vacuum leak when cold. There is a 12v feed from the rear relay board. this helps heating it up and it gradually closes when hot. With the engine hot, Take off the vacuum line that connects the AAR and the air cleaner. put your thumb over it......if the idel drops, it may be defective. Also since you had the engine out, make sure you have the throttle linkage on right.....it might be holding the throttle body open.....

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 05:51 PM

The AAR....

How the hell did the PO get this car running so smooth without an AAR? There's no Decel valve either. Just the MPS, Dizzy and original oil bath with intake boot....

Throttle linkage is good.

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 10 2010, 06:17 PM

I just ran it with every vacuum line on....idle is 33-3400rpm Idle screw makes no difference. (minus the missing AAR and decel valve of course - those lines I plugged).

I unplugged the ports that go to the AAR- no change.

I remove every flippin' vacuum line on the engine starting with the MPS one line at a time...no change.

WTF?

How did this thing run great last fall with bad grounds and cracked vacuum lines? As far as FI & vacuum goes, I've changed nothing. I did fix a lot of broken wires and replace the relay board. So doing those "repairs" have now rendered me disabled.....

Posted by: pbanders Apr 10 2010, 06:20 PM

Sounds like a vac leak. Lots of places to check. Start at the throttle plate and work downward until you get to the valves. Some non-obvious ones:

* Cracked plenum/intake box
* PCV / crankcase breather
* Intake runners (the rubber hoses between the air box and the intake pipes)

Posted by: 1988Hawk Apr 10 2010, 06:22 PM

I would also suggest reinstalling your injectors with new seals. Given your rpm level, you have a major leak, might be the injectors.

Jim

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 11 2010, 07:33 PM

Where's the best place to get new injector seals- muy rapido....

Posted by: Jona Gold Apr 11 2010, 07:34 PM

PBAnders!

Thanks a ton- your Fuel Pump flow chart saved me a lot of headaches----

You are the MAN!