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Posted by: Cevan May 20 2010, 01:09 PM

So I’m entering the wonderful world of carb tuning. (Please save all the FI comments. I couldn’t afford aftermarket FI and I’m using a cam not compatible with stock FI.) The engine is a recently built 2056.

I’ve sync’d the carbs using my STE meter. I adjusted the idle mixture screws per Aircooled.net’s website. It doesn’t appear to make a huge difference when I go from one turn out to all the way in, or from one turn out to two turns out. I adjusted them so that the engine ran the smoothest.

The engine seems to idles nice. So I go for the first drive. After puttering down my long driveway in 1st gear, I pull out onto the road and it goes nicely through 4th gear, maybe at half throttle. At some point (maybe ½ to 1 mile into the drive) it starts to get boggy on acceleration. Definitely a change, so I head back home.

This morning I started it back up. It’s still boggy, pretty much from 2000-4000. If I go WOT, it bogs worse. If I slowly increase the speed, it bogs less. And it smells like it’s running rich, like unburnt fuel (I did check for fuel leaks). I tried adjusting the idle screws some more. It seemed like I got it to run a little faster at idle. The engine revs fine with no load on it. I checked the carb balance again and went for another spin. Still boggy. Still smells like it’s running rich. For the next drive I need to pay more attention to any carb or exhaust popping.

I’m trying to diagnosis this problem in a logical order. I’ve already checked the dwell, timing and valves. The carbs were just rebuilt. The floats are set per the Redine website.

My plan is to pull a spark plug from either side and inspect them for signs of it running rich or lean. I’m also going to clean the idle jets as maybe something clogged the jets during the first drive. I’m also going to install a fuel pressure gauge so a passenger can see it while I drive (just in case it’s running lean), although the fuel pump is new.

If none of this helps, should I try a different size idle jet? I have 50s already. Any other suggestions?

Here’s the current setup:

Weber 40mm IDFs
Idles 55
Main 130
Air 200
Emulsion F11
Vents 32mm

Posted by: Root_Werks May 20 2010, 02:33 PM

Sounds like you fouled the plugs. Runs good for that short while, then will only get worse the more you drive it.



Pull the plugs, check for all that black junk. If they are clean, do a compression check, even if it's cold. Just to establish a baseline and make sure 1 or 2 cyl's aren't sitting bellow 100psig.

I did my 914 cold and the worst was still 120 if that helps.

Hopefully with just those, some answers will come.

I wouldn't think 55's to be too large or 130's either.

On the IDF's, I know there is a "Mixture" set-screw. But you mentioned those were in pretty far already.

Cold start enrichment? Is that done correctly? I've heard horor storries about those not being done right.

Posted by: biosurfer1 May 20 2010, 02:47 PM

One other thing you might check is for any air leaks around the base of the carbs to the manifolds and the manifold to the block. One of my gaskets wasn't sealing correctly and caused all sorts of problems, including making it so the mixture screws did very little to the running condition (similar to what you stated)

Posted by: Vacca Rabite May 20 2010, 03:06 PM

I have 30 vents on my 2056 with IDF 40s. Other then that they are the same as yours. My car runs like a raped ape. I would think with 32 vents you might be just a tad lean.

My carb venting (for 2056 with a Raby carb cam)
IDF 40s.
30 vents
130 Main
200 Air
f11
55 idle

IIRC you were having issues with thinking that your mix knobs were not bottoming out when the springs were fully compressed? I had that problem, and had to cut off the last coil of each spring to get them to properly seat. You may have too much mix going in.

Zach

Posted by: Cevan May 20 2010, 05:07 PM

I took out the idle jets and cleaned them. They looked fine when they came out. Took it for another short run and the same thing.

I really got on it just before I shut it down. Pulled one of the plugs and it's black, but not wet. None of that light brown color I was looking for. It definitely seems like its flooding out when I get on the throttle.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite May 20 2010, 05:54 PM

Clean the plugs, first off. Carbon makes it harder for them to do their job. Idling the car a lot (which you were doing when you ran in the motor and for most of the carb tuning) will foul the plugs.

My plugs started black after my initial tuning, and got nice and brown when I finally had a chance to really run the engine and get some miles on it.

Where are you timed? And with what dizzy?

Zach

Posted by: Cevan May 20 2010, 06:01 PM

I'm using my L-jet dizzy with no vacuum advance. The timing is at 28 degrees all in. It's about 5 degrees at idle.

On a prior drive, I checked my plugs after the car idled for awhile and they weren't black. I think it's not fouling at idle.

Could timing that was too retarded cause this? Maybe I screwed up when I put the TDC mark on my fan.

Posted by: cgnj May 20 2010, 06:46 PM

Hi,
Been there done that. Chassis dyno. Here is a link http://www.smokemup.com/utils/dynosearch.php

Carlos

Posted by: jmill May 20 2010, 07:21 PM

Doesn't sound right. Go out farther than 2 turns. You can go like 5 before fear of the needle falling out. I'm thinking you haven't gone out far enough. You'll hear and feel a difference. It's not huge but you'll know when your passing through the sweet spot. If that spot is more than 2 1/2 turns out increase idle jet size.

If your not advanced enough it will be boggy.

Posted by: Cevan May 20 2010, 07:45 PM

It does make a difference. I just thought it would be more pronounced.

I will advance the timing and drive it again.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite May 20 2010, 08:07 PM

Advance one degree at a time.
Do you have a copy of the weber tech manual?

Zach

Posted by: r_towle May 20 2010, 09:07 PM

Which screw are you turning?

Rich


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Posted by: Cevan May 21 2010, 06:08 AM

I'm adjusting the idle mixture screws. The air bypass screws are all the way in.

Zach - I don't the Weber manual. I presume you will recommend getting copy.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite May 21 2010, 07:49 AM

I found it very useful, but there are some issues with it. I know that they have the float height wrong. but for tuning, it does help zero in on your issues.

Zach

Posted by: jmill May 21 2010, 11:09 AM

I have read it cover to cover several times. You'll reference it often if you have it.

Posted by: Cevan May 21 2010, 11:35 AM

I set my float height to 10mm closed and 32mm open

Posted by: jmill May 21 2010, 01:19 PM

Make sure you set it with the gasket in place. If not it'll be too high

Posted by: r_towle May 21 2010, 04:40 PM

The air bypass screws are all the way in?
Why?
They should not be.

Rich

Posted by: Cevan May 21 2010, 08:14 PM

I read it http://www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/idf_adjustment_controls.htm that the airbypass screws should be closed. I'll be the first to admit I'm a complete idiot when it comes to carbs.

I tried advancing the timing but no change. It just completely falls flat under load. The frustrating part is that it idles perfect. Not sure where to go from here.

Posted by: jmill May 21 2010, 08:52 PM

Air bypasses should be all the way in unless you tweaked them to equalize the flow at idle with the butterflies closed.

Do you get lean popping through the carbs or does it just bog down. If it just bogs I'd say your too rich. My guess is you set the float level too high. Did you set it with the gasket? You needed to. If not your float will be high. If it's too high it will give you an overly rich mixture as soon as the carb tries to go on the main jet. The ET, main and AC jet all work together. They do that correctly only if the fuel level in the main wells is at the right height.

Posted by: r_towle May 21 2010, 09:04 PM

Chris,

Did it ever run ok? think that one through.
If so, it may be something simple that changed...something you changed or overlooked.

Rich

Posted by: jmill May 21 2010, 09:08 PM

BTW I used to set mine at 11mm. I parked on a steep driveway. 10mm was too high and flooded me out on start up. The easiest way to set it is upside down like the picture.


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Posted by: Cevan May 22 2010, 06:31 AM

This is the engine I just built so it's only got 4 short drives on it, plus the cam break in.

Posted by: Cevan May 22 2010, 06:48 AM

When you set these up, the ball is not supposed to be compressed into the valve, right?

If mine are not adjusted correctly, could this be the cause of my issue?

I think I will pull the carbs and check the float levels.

Posted by: Cevan May 22 2010, 09:34 AM

So the float was good on the first carb (11mm and 32mm). Pulled the second and I noticed the main jet stacks were completely loose (I turned them out one turn and they came out).

Not good, huh?

Posted by: Cevan May 22 2010, 11:03 AM

Success!!! The loose main jet stacks on one of the carbs was the problem. I just took it for a 10 mile rip. It pulls way harder than the stock 2.0. Holy shit!!!

There doesn't appear to be any hesitationat any rpm so I think my jetting may be good. I just re-synchonized the carbs and adjusted the idle to 750. My timing was at 27 degrees and I upped it to 29. I'm going to let it cool down, pull the top and then take it for anther spin.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Posted by: Cevan May 22 2010, 01:33 PM

I think my rings are seated. I went for another spin this afternoon. About 35 miles total today. I had my friend in his mid-engined, targa top, two-seater follow me around some nice twisty sides roads for about 10 miles.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite May 22 2010, 03:11 PM

Nice! The 2056 is a great motor for these cars. It's really moves them. I am glad that your issue was an easy one to fix. Now go put abot 1000 miles on it to finish the break in. Watch oil temps and head temps especially on the freeway going uphill. You may still have tuning to do.

Zach

Posted by: jmill May 22 2010, 10:53 PM

Sweet. I'm glad it was something easy. Beautiful engine you have there. Enjoy the heck out of it. Mine will be up on jackstands at least another year.

Posted by: Van May 24 2010, 01:51 PM

Chris, let me know if you ever want to dyno tune the car... I, you know, keep one around for just such occasions.

Posted by: Jake Raby May 24 2010, 03:55 PM

Most carb issues are actually ignition issues. Optimization is key.

Posted by: Cevan May 24 2010, 04:26 PM

With my L-jet dizzy, I can really only change the timing for a particular rpm. It has about 23 degrees total advance, per my adjustable timing light. I've got it at 30 degrees BTDC. I'm just now sure how far I can advance the timing.


Below 3000, it seems like the engine lugs until it hits about 3200 rpms. I'm not sure if I should experiment with 52 and 57 idle jets.

I still don't know where the power drops off. I've got about 100 miles on it now. Any reason I can't crank it up to 5500 rpms?

Posted by: Cevan May 24 2010, 04:28 PM

I'll PM you my address. I'll be around on Saturday.