Every now and again, I get it in my head to build a small 6 for my 914. Either a 2.2 or a 2.4. Either engine would be built up to the "S" type specs, though probably carburated as I don't want to deal with MFI, and at this point have a pretty good understanding of how IDF style carbs work.
While driving my 914, I tend to drive it differently then I do my daily, keeping the engine revved up. This is NOT how I thought I would drive it.
The idea of a small bore high revving engine really tickles something in me.
Could anyone here breakdown the costs involved with taking a tired old 2.2T or 2.4T motor and building it out to S level to have a peaky but potent 190ish HP? I would be doing all the labor, save machine work, myself.
I am not as concerned with the costs of the oil tank, engine mounts, etc. I know about what that stuff all costs to get, and where to go about finding them. I am more interested in just the parts and costs associated with rebuilding the small bored 6 plants.
This would be a build taht I might start collecting parts for now, but would not start for probably a year or longer as I DO want to have my m715 running at some point in my lifetime. I am putting my 914 on the same restriction that I had the truck on. No major changes to the 914 now until the truck is road worthy.
Zach
yeah, me too I would love to see a decent list. I cant get the idea of a 6 out of my head! And Zach I am ahead of you as I've got the mount welded in and the oil tank holes cut.
One thing that I have heard/read is that the small 6's may not need a front oil cooler. Can this be confirmed? Will that change as HP goes up?
Go to PP to the engine rebuild section. Add all the parts you think you would need.
Then go to Competition Engineering and add up your machine work
http://www.competitioneng.com/Catalog.htm
Then add in cost of JE/pistons cyls and reground cams
Next add 20% for what you didn't account for.
Finally go to your favorite throne and proceed to crap bricks.
I'll join this bandwagon! I already have a 69T motor that came with the orange car and have been collecting parts. I'd do a 2.2E (I think) for my style of driving with modern digital FI system. Zach, you should talk to MikeSpraggi at Matt's get together, he's just finished a -6 for his race car so you could pick his brains on your build ideas.
2000 Complete 2.2T engine
500 2.4 crank and rods
300 E cams
??? machine work, gaskets, bearings, etc...
This will give you a high compression 2.4E engine. The normal 2.4E engine is much more streetable than an S spec engine and actually quicker from 0 - 60. AWESOME engine that is very friendly from idle to redline.
And these engines will run all day without an external oil cooler.
Get a 2.7, put a 2.2 crank in it. 2.5, very fun and very rev happy little engines.
Also, my first Porsche was a 2.2T Targa. The engine was high mileage and VERY tired. But, it was still a VERY fun engine in that little car. I would imagine it would be even better in a lighter mid engined car. So what I would do:
Put in a stock 2.2T engine. Do not rebuild, find one with decent leak down numbers. Spend the money on conversion parts. A couple of years down the road drop the engine and rebuild to E specs.
IIRC the way to go is with a 2.4S engine, with a 2.2S crankshaft and E cams.
The stock 2.4's are good but they are lower compression. Shoot you could just about turbo a 2.4T engine, the compression is so low.
i would suspect gas milage would suffer with a six. i guess to make it worth the cost, there would have to be a significatn power increase for me anyway, i got a V6 231 cu in motor (3.8 liter) in my 914 it is quick, sucks gas, but it is fun, but mpg is too bad for a daily ride for me. also a lot more noise! but heck it is fun!!!!!
i would think with all the conversion costs needed, regardless of six engine size, i'd tend to go for the biggest motor, more bang for the effort I think.
how is the 2056 motor, I plan to have one in my ohter 914 soon with stock D-jet
have fun in you six search!!!
Do the 2.7 case and 2 liter crank, OR
Find an early Aluminum Case and cut it for 2.7 Pistons.. 2 liter crank.. go for the JE pistons and while it is apart, cut the heads for the second set of spark plugs. Solex or S cams and then, rev the hell out of it. Amazing motor.. Fun, Fast and nothing like the sound of it.
You can plug the second set of spark plug holes till you put together the twin plug ignition at a later date if necessary and you will be glad you did it already since it will be cheaper to do while it is already apart.
just my 2 Cents Worth
If I used a 2.7 case and the 2.0 crank to make a 2.5, would I be able to use CIS instead of carburators?
I don't want to deal with MFI, but I would like to learn CIS.
Zach
Zach,
If you haven't yet, buy Wayne Demsey's http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify-Porsche-Engines-1965-1989/dp/0760310874/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281735788&sr=1-1.
It details different 911 engine configurations, parts, and machine costs. This book will give you hours of good armchair dreaming (prepping )time.
Zach - I have Wayne's book. Your welcome to borrow it.
Funny you should metion changign over to a six. I was dreaming the same thing looking at my car the other day. Maybe i'll just buy your 2056
In my opinion, the costs associated with rebuilding a 911 engine are similar no matter what displacement is. Granted some of the piston and cylinder sets are more money than others, but pricing to rebuild will be similar.
If it was me (and sometimes it is) I would start with the latest case you can get. I really like the 3.2's. I also like to keep them stock. More than enough power and longevity for a street car (or for that matter a lot of power for a DE car).
I also prefer the Motronic to any CIS.
just my $0.02
Been down this road of thought, it doesn't matter what six you build, they all cost about the same.
If you can find a good running used small six then it might be worth it, otherwise you will be kicking yourself because you could have built a bigger engine for close to the same coin.
I would have to dig out receipts from some of my engine builds, but here are some estimates
Core engine - $500 - $1,500
However, if you really want to do it right, buy a early Sand-Cast Aluminum case, they are about $1200 - $2,000
Machine work - Shuffle pins, Oil Mods, enlarging spigots for bigger cylinders, honing the case, line-bore, case savers - $2000
J-E Pistons - $1,200
Mahle Cylinders - $500
Rings - $150 - $300
Bearings - $225
Cams - $500+
Rod Bolts - $200
Valves - $450
Racing Valve Springs - $200
Head Work - $300-$400
Gasket Set - $200
Cam Chains & Rails - $200
Oil Return Tubes - $50
Oil Pump - $200-$300
SparkPlugs - $75
Plug Wire set - $200
Ignition $1,000 - $2500
Used Webers - $1,000 - $2000
Webers Rebuild - $1,000
PMO Manifolds - $300
Assorted Hardware - $150
Lower Turbo Valve Covers & Machining to clear the Susp Ear - $250
And your labor.
Then you will still need a Six Mount, Oil Tank, Exhaust, etc.
My Motor in the Classifieds = Priceless ($20K)
Attached is an estimate sheet from 6-8 years ago
Ditto the 2056, I have one in my 912E and love the torque (120 RWTQ) from 2500 to 5000 RPM. The posts are correct about the cost of a 911 rebuild. About the same no matter how big you go. We have a 2.5L IMSA (GTU) motor that my Son rebuilt and I have North of $8000 in the parts and that does not include Machine expence. Or any labor. BTW the motor is for sale if anyone is interested.
My thoughts on a build up
are stick with an aluminum block, early or 78 and up for longevity
the toughness of the bottom end on a 78 and up blocks require less-no machining (generally) then a mag block, so you should be able to build up with greater hp for less dollars and still be able to attain a happy rpm
Also, don't forget to consider the entertainment value. You're a tinkerer, so you're paying to fill that need. I've never felt much need for a six cylinder motor, but I'm positively itching to build another one even thought I don't have anything to do with it once it's done.
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