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Posted by: ripper911 Aug 22 2010, 05:41 PM

Well, we got everything changed and back together.

I crank the car up and it just grinds when trying to shift.

Heres what I know...

we didn't remove the flywheel/crankshaft seal so the shims were not messed with
I used the rebuilt flywheel (although it looked awefully clean) so I thought we might have to do the shims but didn't think we would be able to do it with what we had available..

I've adjusted the cable at the release fork as much as it can, the pedal feels very tight, and the end of the fork hits the transmision case.

I've read about shimming the ball in the bell housing of the tranny, but how?
is that what we should do next, or go in and get the shims behind the flywheel in spec?
we shifted the transmission while trying to get it back on the engine, whould that have thrown something off?

not sure what to do next?

Posted by: messix Aug 22 2010, 05:48 PM

i think it's to put a washer between the pivot ball and the tranny case to get the fork clearance.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 22 2010, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(messix @ Aug 22 2010, 07:48 PM)

Posted by: Spoke Aug 22 2010, 07:25 PM

QUOTE(ripper911 @ Aug 22 2010, 07:41 PM)

Posted by: jimkelly Aug 22 2010, 09:02 PM

engine off

put car in 5th

push clutch in

have someone try to push car a few feet - rolls freely ??

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 23 2010, 04:24 PM

I went back today and pulled the tranny again.

Messed with the release fork and it seems like it now has the proper freeplay then makes contact.

It just grinds when trying to get into gear. constantly, wont go in...

Started the car in 1st and went down the road, so it will move under it's own power
and it let me shift into 2nd while on the road, also it seemed like the clutch was responding (and not slipping!), as I came up on slower traffic and had to slow down, but then I tried going into 1st and no go..
During that drive the clutch was catching high in the pedal travel so I adjusted it to about where it should be.

What are to possibilities?
I have learned how to take my transmission off easily so I don't mind going back in to fix it, but I want to have an idea what could be causing this...

ask me questions, answer my questions, lets figure this out.
This is my only running car (well not now)

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 23 2010, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(Spoke @ Aug 22 2010, 09:25 PM)

QUOTE(ripper911 @ Aug 22 2010, 07:41 PM)

I've adjusted the cable at the release fork as much as it can, the pedal feels very tight, and the end of the fork hits the transmission case.

When you say "as much as it can", do you mean you ran out of threads on the cable end?
I THOUGHT SO, BUT NOW I THINK IT IS ABOUT RIGHT

When you say "the end of the fork hits the transmission case" do you mean when you depress the clutch?
YES, SHOULD THAT NOT HAPPEN?

The fork pivots on a ball and there's a bushing that goes in the fork lever. Did you change the bushing? I think this is where the washer goes, behind the bushing. If this is incorrect, hopefully someone will chime in.
I TRIED THE WASHER BEHIND, BETWEEN, AROUND. BUT NOW IT FEELS RIGHT.
LEFT OUT THE LITTLE SPACERS THAT WENT ON THE SIDES OF THE BEARING LAST TIME.

Posted by: Ductech Aug 23 2010, 04:33 PM

Best advice i can give is that you should measure the thickness of the new plate compared to the old one. sounds like you can't dissengage this new friction plate well enough to change gears. either their is less throw at the throwout bearing/ arm assembly or your disc is incorrect and is just to plain thick to dissengage properly no matter what the adjustment is.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 23 2010, 04:46 PM

QUOTE(Ductech @ Aug 23 2010, 06:33 PM)

Posted by: SLITS Aug 23 2010, 05:08 PM

You bought the flywheel from AA. Did they bother to give you the measurement of how much the flywheel was cut? If it is to deep, it won't work (they should know that). It also needs to be step cut to maintain cover / disk relationship. I don't have the specifications anymore.

I have seen them cut to the point where the flywheel bolts had to be ground to clear the friction disk.

Also, the bushing everyone is talking about.

When correct, you should be able to pull back on the clutch pedal 3/4". I don't set mine that way, but that is the factory specification. I usually play with the adjustment until I get friction about 1/2 the way up on the pedal.

As I said before, if your old flywheel wasn't blued, scored or cracked, I would have left the flywheel alone and installed the new clutch parts only.

Anyway ... good luck!

Posted by: JRust Aug 23 2010, 05:11 PM

Still sounds like the clutch fork to me. Did you get a washer behind the ball it sits on? It is basically a little bolt with a ball on it. You just unscrew it & put a washer behind it. Then screw it back in. You just aren't getting enough movement. Unfortunately you do have to have the tranny off to do it. Unless you have some amazing tools I haven't seen. Sounds like you are used to pulling it though. Just pull your tranny again & pull the clutch fork off. Then pull the ball & add a washer behind. Have a few different thicknesses available. Seems like it is a 13mm bolt but I'm not positive on that. Takes a wrench as the ball keep you from using a socket. Start small & work your way up as needed. Doesn't take much to get the clutch fork out so it can pivot without running out of room. Hope that makes sense

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 23 2010, 06:06 PM

Ah, the washer goes BEHIND the ball, in the tranny housing!
that soundsgood to me, I'm having trouble getting the ball out, cant get a grip in the flat surfaces, and havent got a tool that would fit around it in that tight of space.

and, yes. My old flywheel was pretty well blued, scored... so new one is probably staying. and I dont recall a measurement.

Any more suggestion, I only want t o do this one more time if I can.
AA will run out of C/V joint gaskets soon... if I keep going like this.

Posted by: SLITS Aug 23 2010, 06:59 PM

Ok, you asked for suggestions .... read this ......

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-914-914-6-technical-forum/148310-flywheel-resurfacing.html

This will tell you all you need to know (more than likely)

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 23 2010, 06:59 PM

Did you replace the plastic ball cup on the release arm? While I'm saking questions, here's a BIG one. Did you replace the o-ring in the back of the flywheel? How about the pilot bearing? For the ball, you need a deep 9/16 socket with the splines going all the way down the inside of the socket. Hard to find, but they DO exist. Use one of the washers from the nose cover of the trans. Be sure to pus another washer in its place. The original washers are of a higher quality than the ones you find in the aftermarket, and they're FLAT.

The Cap'n

Posted by: tradisrad Aug 23 2010, 07:04 PM

Like others say you need to put a washer under the pivot ball. A thin wall socket is needed to remove the pivot ball. I have a "special" socket that I ground down to fit.

Posted by: messix Aug 23 2010, 08:02 PM

QUOTE(messix @ Aug 22 2010, 04:48 PM)

Posted by: ws91420 Aug 23 2010, 08:40 PM

Did you replace the clutch cable yet? I kept trying to adjust a worn out clutch and ended up streching and snapping a cable.

Posted by: jsaum Aug 23 2010, 09:07 PM

I had a problem with the clutch not wanting to disengage, it was the fly wheel depth. Measure the depth of your old fly wheel compared to the new one. I don't remember what the maximum depth is before you loose the ability to disengage the clutch. I also shimmed the ball with a washer. I had to take a socket and grind down the outside diameter to get it to fit.

Jsaum


Attached image(s)

Posted by: yeahmag Aug 23 2010, 10:42 PM

I think normally you shim under the bushing that presses in to the case. I could be wrong, but that's what works for me.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 24 2010, 04:55 AM

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Aug 23 2010, 08:59 PM)

Posted by: SUNAB914 Aug 24 2010, 07:02 AM

My input to this from what I read.
Flywheel not in spec.
Check to make sure your fork is not bent. That can happen.
Make sure are using the proper clutch and pressure plate.
There is more adjustment on the front of the clutch cable where it attaches to pedal cluster.
Did you replace shift rod bushings? Could be an alignment problem and nothing to do with clutch assembly.
Good luck

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 24 2010, 07:39 AM

QUOTE(ripper911 @ Aug 24 2010, 03:55 AM)

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Aug 23 2010, 08:59 PM)

Did you replace the plastic ball cup on the release arm? While I'm saking questions, here's a BIG one. Did you replace the o-ring in the back of the flywheel? How about the pilot bearing? For the ball, you need a deep 9/16 socket with the splines going all the way down the inside of the socket. Hard to find, but they DO exist. Use one of the washers from the nose cover of the trans. Be sure to pus another washer in its place. The original washers are of a higher quality than the ones you find in the aftermarket, and they're FLAT.

The Cap'n

The O-ring at the back of the flywheel, crankshaft seal? then no.
Didn't think we would be able to set the end play right so left it alone.
Might have to do it...

I'm going to try to get the pivot ball off, I can visualize what I might be able to do to a socket to make it work, grinding it down and such.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Back to work (job) I'll try again thursday.

Posted by: brant Aug 24 2010, 07:53 AM

I only read through this once, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

but I understood that your old flywheel was blue/scored, so you put the used flywheel on. However, you also state that you didn't want to have to reset the endplay and left the crank seal alone.

You still have to reset the endplay any time you change the flywheel. Even if you don't touch the crank seal you still have to reset your endplay. It won't be the reason for your clutch issues, but it will break your crank or wear out your motor in the next few thousand miles if the crank is bouncing forward/back due to excessive end play

If I missed something in the quick read through I apologize, it just seemed that there was a misunderstanding about end play.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 24 2010, 12:00 PM

Alright, so I'll have to set the end play.
I read in the pelican write up that most shops don't bother with it so I wasn't too concerned.

I was also concerned with the shift linkage as it seems a to be having trouble going into 4th and 5th, But maybe it works while in motion, I dont usually try to shift into 4th/5th at a standstill... but the set screws only go in one spot, so how can it be wrong?

Someone said earlier to set the end play with a stiff wire and feeler guages, I'll try that.

But the end play wouldn't effect the clutch activity, so I still have to work that out.

I'll try to get the pivot ball out to shim it.


This is my first time trying to really work on my car.
Thanks for putting up with my lack of experience.
I usually work with flesh.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 24 2010, 12:07 PM

I just found something interesting on another thread from 2004.

My release fork dosent have the plactic cup attached, that may be the problem!!!

But I guess it's good that I Haven't been able to drive it before setting the end play first.

Posted by: Spoke Aug 24 2010, 12:39 PM

The little plastic ball cup in the clutch fork should be changed when the clutch is changed. If it's missing, then your issue makes sense.

Posted by: jsaum Aug 24 2010, 12:40 PM

Yes the plastic cup would affect the travel and probably cause the issue of the clutch not to disengage. I would replace the plastic cup before I tried to shim the pivot ball.

Jsaum

Posted by: Bartlett 914 Aug 24 2010, 01:11 PM

Why would it be missing unless you took it out? Maybe you didn't see it in there. Often they wear out and the ball sits deeper.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 24 2010, 04:26 PM

We are pretty sure there wasn't one there on the old one...

So, one more question. hopefully.

About shimming the crankshaft for end play
Is this a situation where I will have to get everything off, take my measurements to see what size shim I need and then go get that particular size, or are there spares somewhere back there?
That will mean my next trip to marietta will be in the middle of doing the job...

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 25 2010, 08:29 AM

one last question hopefully, I would like to know this before i get to work again.

Are the shims available as a set so that I can have different thicknesses available or do I have to know which one I need before I go shopping?

Posted by: SLITS Aug 25 2010, 10:59 AM

Somewhere in this thread I thought I told you they were all fitted with 3 shims. One thick and two thinner ones.

You put two shims on to start (thick & thin), measure the endplay and then calculate the thickness required for the 3rd shim.

They are probably available from VW or VW parts houses. If not, you have to rely on the board members to find the one you are looking for (or have a couple of spare engines around).

Hopefully, the ones you have will get you into the correct endplay range and you won't have to search for one.

Posted by: ripper911 Aug 25 2010, 11:15 AM

QUOTE(SLITS @ Aug 25 2010, 12:59 PM)