Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 24 2010, 08:20 PM

Hello everyone,

I know there has been some post on the subject but I brought some numbers to discuss.

I took measurements of the door gap (left and right) on the top to see how much it moves from resting on the ground to raised on a jack placed under the long at jack point. Car was raised enough to get the back wheel off the ground about a couple of inches.

Left door results:





Right door results:





So, both sides are opening a little more than 1/16". The car is solid, no hell hole problems. Are these figures normal? I think the Engman kit is very attractive, but it doesn't seem to address the same issue. I would assume that a combination of the Engman on the inside, and AA Clamshell on the outside would be a great combo as far as stiffening the tub.

I have a stock 2.0 without any sway bars. I would like to increase the power at some point and improve handling but it seems to me that if the car is aready folding like this, I don't wan't to impose more stress on it.

Also, my jack mount is rusted. I will need to dig into this. Can this be repaired without having to cut finished body panels or redo paint job.

Thank you,

Posted by: brant Aug 24 2010, 08:35 PM

I don't think a rust free car flexes that much
how bad is your jack point. That is exactly the spot that would cause door flex. I wonder if its a little deeper than just the jack cover?

I have a rust free car that I'll go measure
I don't think they flex nearly that much normally.

brant

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 24 2010, 08:48 PM

Let's just say that I cant use the original jack because it will bend. I asume that if I remove the rocker I would have acces to remove the current one which would them expose the situation. I don't wan't to get into stuff that will mean paint job because I cannot justify such a expense at the moment.

What do you think of the stiffening options (Engman and AA clamshell). I understand that for the AA part, it involves paint, but I like to plan in advance...

Thanks

Posted by: draganc Aug 24 2010, 08:53 PM

I agree with Brant's comment. I have my car on jacks (dropped my engine) and there is no visual flex at the doors with or w/o the top. I would suggest that you investifate the condition of your body before you spend any money on any upgrades that will not help or mask the problem. I know, it's not the answer you where looking for.

Dragan

Posted by: brant Aug 24 2010, 09:08 PM

you can patch the longs without adding a "kit"
I'd just pull the rockers and start stripping out the rust
your car is no weaker with the rust cleaned, than it is hidden.

you might be able to patch your problem without buying a kit
you might even be able to buy a chunk of long on the classifieds that is clean and useable?

my 2 cents... see if you can fix your problem before adding a stiffening kit
I don't think the engman is meant to replace a solid frame, its meant as an addition to a full frame for performance applications... see if you can fix your frame first.

Posted by: Tom_T Aug 24 2010, 11:06 PM

My money is on rust holes behind the jack tube supports, like behind this on my ex-racer donor shell -



You need to pull off the rockers, then cut off the jack tube supports & look behind there, then go to Restoration Design (member vendor on here) & order up your needed parts - after you check the other usual suspect areas for rust carefully!

http://www.restoration-design.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=914

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 24 2010, 11:27 PM

OK I will start by removing the rockers and look into the jack point. I still think that any 914 can benificiate from a little added structure. Let's face it, they are getting old, metal and design. Don't get me wrong, I love my car and I enjoy it everyday to go to work. I wouldn't trade it for any modern car.

What do you think of Brad Mayeur long stiffening kit? I uderstand it's on the heavy side, but I'm not building a race car here. Just want to enjoy my daily for years.

Posted by: avidfanjpl Aug 25 2010, 12:50 AM

Hi Eric

If the points and posts look no worse than this, you will not need the stiffening kits, all of which add a lot of stiffness.

The jackposts had rust, not terrible, and I cut it out completely, but had no longitudinal impact. Just treated it and welding it closed this week.

Here is a pic or two. Notice the primer is fine. Metal ready and weldthrough primer did the trick from weld prep!

Heavy sanding, brush wheels and high temp flat and gloss paint, and the Monza's are on this weekend.

Thanks!

John

Posted by: scotty b Aug 25 2010, 05:32 AM

Then stop trying to cure cancer with a bandaid and some O.J.

Fix the rust.

Old cars are NEVER cheap or easy, I don't understand why people don't get that.

Posted by: nsyr Aug 25 2010, 07:51 AM

Long reinforcement will not stop the rust and will only (slightly) delay the inevitable.

Posted by: Root_Werks Aug 25 2010, 09:02 AM

Wow, that's a lot of flex!

Most 914's I've owned you can put on a jack and still open, close both doors the same as if it was resting on the ground. Little to no gap movement.

I agree with what others have already said, it's nothing new to 914's. Find the cancer, cut it out, clean it up, put new metal in, paint and drive.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 25 2010, 10:52 AM

The rust is there, you just haven't found it yet ...
Andy

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 25 2010, 12:35 PM

OK I will look for it and fix it.

That being said, while I'm in the area isn't logical to beef it up with clamshell or Brad Mayeur kit?

Posted by: Root_Werks Aug 25 2010, 02:20 PM

Inner long kit, best you can get. I've installed a few of them.

Engman sells them here and through his web site.

Posted by: Drums66 Aug 25 2010, 04:23 PM

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 25 2010, 09:22 PM

OK, So I pulled off the rockers and this is whats behind. I guess this doesn't come as a surprise for many of you who have replied. So I will get into cutting the bad material but the outer long is split (by rust) where I think there is a junction between two panels that compose the outer long.

I was thinking of removing the door sill but maybe it isn't necessary. Maybe just the bad portion. One thing that I would like to avoid is cutting the quarter. Do you think it is possible?

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 25 2010, 09:25 PM

Now the driver side...

Posted by: tradisrad Aug 25 2010, 09:38 PM

I'm sorry, that sucks. Do you weld?

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 25 2010, 09:48 PM

Not really. Do you have someone to recommend?

Posted by: mepstein Aug 25 2010, 09:50 PM

Tip of the iceberg. Mine looked similar. Both longs needed major repair/replacement and floors were toast.

Posted by: yeahmag Aug 25 2010, 10:16 PM

Where in Pasadena are you?

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 25 2010, 10:36 PM

Hastings Ranch,
How about you?

Posted by: realred914 Aug 26 2010, 12:35 AM

wow, part of door sill gone too???? before you spend any more time, you need to also hcek teh interior side too, remove the seats an dlift out the carpet and check out the bottom of the inner rockers near where they meets floor, stab the inner rocker with a screw driver to check if it is rusting thru from inside or not, also look at floor, paty attnetion to back wall under winodw near floor.

then do a carefully insepction of hellhole 9some have been cheaply wleded or bondoed over and look great form far, even from up close, make sure they is no signs of prior repair there. you do NOT want to waste time/money repairing the jack points only to find you have terminal rust elsewhere (ie thousands of bucks worth of repairs) when a better body tub can be obtained for less money and effort, so do a complete inspcetion like never before on this car before youproceed further. only then can youbudget for this

Posted by: tradisrad Aug 26 2010, 07:31 AM

I dont have anyone to recommend. I had a bunch of rust in a car and I found it cheaper to buy a roller and x-fer all of my parts to the new car. My rust was not as bad as yours.
Check for a tear in the long on the driverside at the e-brake handle recess. Inspect carefully under the battery tray and on the bottoms of the longs near the rear jack point.

Posted by: yeahmag Aug 26 2010, 09:16 AM

Near Allen and Washington (there's a Vons there as a landmark). I'll PM you my contact info.

-Aaron

Posted by: scotty b Aug 26 2010, 06:42 PM

No, you can't even properly replace the jack point without cutting some of the quarter. You will most likely have to take the whole panel out. Find someone local to you that is competent with a MIG and can help you out. Hope for the best, but expect the worst.

Posted by: yeahmag Aug 26 2010, 10:18 PM

I plan to take a look at the car sometime soon, but being in So. Cal. it's probably much more affordable to replace the chassis than it is to fix the rust...

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 5 2010, 10:03 PM

So I thought I would update the recent work that I've done to repair my daily driver.
The difficult part was to do this as I use the car to go to work everyday...and weekends is usually familly time (as some of us know).
So the interior was pretty much stripped, keeping only the driver seat and some tools.

I removed the rest of the jack point and sanded down the area.



I removed the rusted part where the two panels used to join and I used 16ga steel, shaped a piece using my available tools: hammer, vise, 2x4 block, lots of elbow grease and patience.
The first side took close to 3 hours, and the second one about 2. The fit was very good.



Then I went to get both sides mig welded for a reasonable price. I wish I had a welder I might get one to finish up the work.



The car is now much more rigid. I need to do my caliper test again to see if the door gap opens up when I jack the car, as it used to but I think this issue is solved.

My next step is to install the Brad mayeur kit that I should receive tomorrow.

I'm currently debating if when I'm done I will put back my fiberglass rocker or find decent steel ones. Any ones out there for sale? What price should I expect to pay for a set?

Posted by: cary Oct 6 2010, 06:16 AM

Having been where you are a couple times. What your doing is only temporary. Anything that is pitted still isn't really good metal. Kind of usable, but not good solid clean metal. You really need to take off the outer long to really inspect it.

Don't expect this to be a life time fix. Being in CA where its dry it will last a while but not forever. I have one just a little better then yours I'm fixing up for a daily driver. But being here in Oregon. When I'm finished putting it together I'm going to start hunting for another tub.

Fix it, get it back on the road to enjoy. Just don't forget about it. If you plan on keeping the car forever like some of us. Start making plans for a major inspection and repair.

Posted by: Bartlett 914 Oct 6 2010, 06:16 AM

Good to see you are doing a proper repair and not just a band-aid. The Brad Mayeur kit will really make the car rigid. I have a totally rusted shell I am about to cut up. Floor is gone and the longs are a mess. It had Brad's kit. The car has less flex tham my DD

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 6 2010, 08:26 AM

sorry to burst ya'lls bubble but dont call that proper. I commend your innitiative but...the 914 longitudinal is like an onion. it has more than one layer of skin there and they are not flat metal for a reason. this bandaid will help for a while but what else is in there? you cant be scared to cut away till you find clean metal and dont be scared to remove this bandaid patch if you deside to do it right.
that bandaid should at least have some plug welds thru the middle to tie it into the underlayign layers

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 6 2010, 08:29 AM

when you add the Brad M kit, dont forget som plug welds

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 6 2010, 08:34 AM

spot weld, plug weld, swiss cheese...


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 6 2010, 08:42 AM

the factory used them


Attached image(s)

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 6 2010, 08:43 AM

plug loco ese


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 6 2010, 09:06 AM

Thank you for the reply,

I'm originally from Montreal Canada where there is salt on the streets half of the year and the other half is raining 50% of the time. New galvanized cars rust after 6 years! I would be surprised if there are more than 5 914 left in the Montreal area (pop 3 million). I don't believe that cars last forever unless there are dry garage kept and driven to yearly shows. Now I live in CA, bought this car and drive it everyday, putting at least 10k miles per year on it. It is not a show room car but a driver that I enjoy.

Yes I agree with you that the real job is to remove the outer to make sure everything is OK, but I can't justify to spend 8000$ when the car is worth half of that, plus I will not enjoy my car for a year.

I know that it is not the best solution and am fully aware that wathever rust there is will not go away.
Thank you for your recommendations. I will keep a close eye on things as any 914 owner has to. If I get to the point that I'm uncomfortable with the car, I will look for a tub like you did. With the addition of the Brad Mayeur kit, I should be good for another five years.

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 6 2010, 09:12 AM

Great! I'm glad to hear that! I'm looking foreward to feel the difference.

Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to do this. When I spoke to Brad he told me that customer usually have to pay 700-800$ for him to do the complete job with paint and seam sealer. I would like to do this for half of that and I'm currently looking at the option of buying a mig welder.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Oct 6 2010, 09:21 AM

Before you start welding there, please make sure that you brace your door openings. if you do not do this, you can warp your car from the heat of welding. Its a common mistake for guys learning to weld or learning the quirks of these cars.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 6 2010, 09:28 AM

Also make sure your passenger seatbelt mount down by the long has not been compromised.
(credit Scotty B for that bit of info)

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 6 2010, 09:32 AM

Thank you Sean for you reply.

I know the long have a few layer in that area and they are still there. This bandaid (12" wide) was installed with plug weld and a good overlap. I intend to do (or have done) the same thing with the Brad Mayeur kit. Coming back to the extra layer of skin, I think the 1/8" thick kit should make for it if there is any problem with it.

As I said in a preious reply, I know there could be other rust, it's 37 years old and has never been opened up. I regularly look at door gaps, rear wheel angle and things seem good.

I don't want to make this car a jackstand project, it runs good and I enjoy driving it.

Thanks for all the images, here is one!

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 6 2010, 09:36 AM

So both sides have been repaired now (1 day) and the doors are good. I took dimension and evryrhing is good.

Thanks for the tip!

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 6 2010, 09:38 AM

The whole interior is very nice. I don't have a picture, but that cylindrical nut on the inner long is as good as new on both sides.

Posted by: mihai914 Oct 6 2010, 09:44 AM

Are you planning on moving back to Montreal eventually?

If so and you really like the 914, start saving money and looking for the best tub you can find.

Many people here have been through what you have been and are giving you good advice to consider, it may come through as harsh sometimes but I guess it's the natural evolution of people who own these

When you are so close to good tubs, spending alot of dough on what you have is not justified, the car should have a big load of sentimental value or be pretty rare to spend plenty of cash.

I think most people here (who are not super body men) who have nice cars are at their 2nd, 3rd, 4th 914.

Usually your 1st one is kinda crappy and then you learn the car and you learn from previous mistakes.

So play as much as you want with this car, keep looking for a great deal on a tub and go on from there. Just don't think you'll turn this car in a concours winner...

Posted by: mepstein Oct 6 2010, 10:18 AM

I mean the sheet metal the nut is attached too.

Posted by: Montreal914 Oct 6 2010, 12:06 PM

Hey Montreal!!!

Glad to see another Montreal owner! I will go back at some point. I'm down here on a work project. When I do, I will bring it back up and drive it in the summer obviously. I really don't intend to make it a concour winner out of it. I'm not a concour winner car type of person. I usually only own one car at a time and use it. So far I haven't been spending too much on it. These current repair will be less than a good tub and less work to transfer everything. There is some very good mileage to be used on this one still.

I appreciate all the advice that I get from this forum. I can see that there are many views. Some have have lifetime jackstand dreams, some concours, some professional shops that make a living out of this and are very knowledgeable, some very big reconstruction project that I admire, and others that look for cars to dismantle and make profits out of a door or caliper. I personnaly enjoy the fact that after 37 years, this little car is a blast to drive and I get that feeling every morning, night and weekend trips.

I'm always looking at what is available and would dream of building a 6 out of a good tub but in the end we all know that these projects cost way more than buying a completed project. When I get tired of this one, I will look for a better one, but as of now, it gets me where I need to go everyday.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 6 2010, 08:54 PM

thanks. I feel better now.
I agree with you. enjoy your car

Posted by: 914xprs Oct 6 2010, 09:09 PM

hello,
i have a bunch of good metal, and i weld as well. if you bring to me here in riverside we can fix you up. if this is not taken care of you will end up foling the car in half when hitting a pothole on the freeway.
i have all you need and i can repair your car. let me know .
its terry by the way. you bought the slider from me.
thanks.
and i am not tryin to get rich and we will work out somethin fair...