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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:15 PM

First of all, let me say this: let's not turn this into a 4 vs: 6 thread. I like them both and really don't give a damn about your position on this non-issue.

All the legal stuff out of the way, let's talk engine.

First of all, this project is well advanced. The engine is already together and the 20 minute cam run in has been done. But let's talk about how we got to that point first...

This motor is a 2432 Raby kit. It uses the LE200 heads and stock 2liter cylinders. The stroked crank is 84mm I believe so think of it as a super-stroker. It will run Jenvey throttle bodies and SDS injection. The EFI sensors I have chosen to use will be TPS, CHT, MAP, IAT, O2 in closed loop, and I think that is everything. Injectors are Ford Red Top. This motor requires quite a bit of engine block clearance so as they say, don't try this at home...

It took me about three trips down to Original Customs to put the engine together. I used McMark's shop so I could get his free advice which he of course charges me for, and I don't get distracted by wives wondering how much all of this costs. Plus Mark has an engine break-in stand that allows us to fire it out of the car and correct anything that might be wrong without having to pull an already installed motor.

Here is a dyno sheet of one of these motors that Jake actually built. I would expect that my result might be within 10% of his. :Insert fingers crossed smiley here:


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:16 PM

Jenvey throttle bodies


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:17 PM

Custom air cleaners using K&N filters designed by Jake Raby


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:20 PM

This engine will be distributorless so this is a couple shots of the Original Customs Hall Sensor mount. Also notice, the crankcase vent that was custom built by Jeff Hines (sixnotfour). This is replacing the distributor and venting the crankcase.


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Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 2 2011, 03:22 PM

This is a bad ass build! Rock on!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:24 PM

Here are some random shots of the engine as it goes together...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:25 PM

Here is a close-up of just how much spacer you need to run that much of a stroke. Pretty thick!!!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:27 PM

Thanks Mike! I'm just the cook though... Jake was the chef and Mark is supervising the kitchen...

Mark has a video of the cam break in. Maybe he will post that here...

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 2 2011, 03:32 PM

Say what you will, that is beautiful!

Posted by: MDG Apr 2 2011, 03:36 PM

I think I'd be a vibrating mess waiting to drive it. Those chart numbers are amazing. And the yellow line for fuel . . . it doesn't use any

Seriously, congratulations on this!!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:38 PM

Some planned locations for SDS components are as follows: The SDS ECU with it's hideous gold anodizing will hide under the passenger seat along with the O2 Sensor control unit. The coil packs will be over on the driver side wall just aft of the relay board. Here is a pic of the vacuum manifold that will collect and smooth the vacuum impulses from the four vacuum vents on the ITB's. This of course will be connected to the MAP. That hideous Eagle will be face down... The CHT will be in the stock 2liter location and in fact, is the stock Bosch unit. The Intake Air Temperature Sensor will be located between the air cleaners and correct me if I am wrong Mark - on the passenger side? This will use one of McMark's Original Customs designed mounts which he has used on other peoples motors...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:40 PM

Mike, I think it is an often overlooked fact that Jake's creations run smoother, use less fuel and run cooler than stock. I'd guess Jake didn't record that parameter 'cause this thing will be thirsty!

I am very excited.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:44 PM

Has anyone else noticed that the only people who have responded to this thread are named Mike?

Thanks Evil... As we say in science the rate limiting factor at this point is the custom harness being built by Jeff Bowlsby. The prevalent opinion on the SDS harness was 'cheesy' so Jeff is building a custom one. The plan was to have it done in January but Jeff has some issues personally and professionally right now that are making his life hell and holding the harness up...

Posted by: 76-914 Apr 2 2011, 03:46 PM

Nice job, Sweeeeeeeeeeet. And seeing as how these things usually end up being a 50/50 deal, what did you have to buy her as an offset?

Posted by: Madswede Apr 2 2011, 03:51 PM

Very cool! And even tho I'll have a /6 in my teener, I love big /4's! Look no further than my beloved 968 - 3.0L /4 (inline of course) that I plan eventually to have turbocharged.

Even right now, though, it's around 240 hp naturally aspirated thanks to VarioCam. Once of the reasons I fell in love P-cars in the first place was 'cos they find replacements for cubic displacement ... like good engineering.

I'm now in awe of Jake Raby.

- Nelson

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 03:51 PM

It's looking like a Cayenne S... Thanks to that provocateur Eric Shea!

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 2 2011, 03:57 PM

Are you planning on attending the WCR with it? Very nice! You have some of the best of the best working on it too!

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Apr 2 2011, 04:02 PM

This fills my "coolest thing of the day" slot!

What are you going to do for exhaust? I kinda doubt you are going to be able to use the usual suspects with that much extra space under the cylinders.

Zach

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 04:03 PM

I hope so...

Posted by: MDG Apr 2 2011, 04:03 PM

We move in packs . . .

Posted by: Krieger Apr 2 2011, 04:05 PM

Very cool Rob!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 04:05 PM

I am using Tangerine Racing headers with the O2 sensor bung and heat exchanger option. It has also been drilled for EGT probe. Chris Foley may live on the wrong side of the country from me but his work is well worth the extra shipping. The slip fittings between the sides are plenty long enough so there are no problems...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 04:08 PM

Andy, It's engine envy. I want to make up for what I lack in talent compared to you with more torque!!!

Posted by: Krieger Apr 2 2011, 04:11 PM

Thanks, your gonna have a blast driving that thing!

Posted by: Andyrew Apr 2 2011, 04:55 PM

Nice!!! Looking forward to this one!

Some serious $$$$ being put down on this engine.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 04:59 PM

Mostly sexual favors but it is nice to know that you think my booty is worth $$$$

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 2 2011, 05:21 PM

The engine that Rob's kit was based from is going into my 356 Outlaw. 220+ HP and an ass load of torque.

Rob, glad you are having fun with this.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 06:33 PM

Thanks Jake! That much HP and torque didn't seem real until we fired it and ran it on the stand. Mark had made braces to keep it from flipping the stand over and it needed it! She ran rough for a minute or two while she warmed up and then became very smooth. This thing is powerful for sure...

Posted by: patssle Apr 2 2011, 06:36 PM

So what is the cost, inquiring minds want to know!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 06:41 PM

Oh no you don't... My wife is a member here.

Posted by: JRust Apr 2 2011, 06:41 PM

Excellent Rob! If you bring it to WCR. Just make sure you the damn thing yourself . Or tow it yourself

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 06:48 PM

I think Jim does plan on coming up with his beer creation... Two Trunk Ale or something like that.

As I said before, if I could change anything other than it not happening, I would just have changed it to me driving. Poor Jim feels pretty badly.

Posted by: gopack Apr 2 2011, 06:54 PM

Rob, you make me feel like schmuck for letting my partial car just sit in the garage for the past year. Now that I am moving to a different house, maybe I can get going on it again!

Sounds like my envy will get in the way of our freindship!
Sounds like a great project!!!!!!!!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 07:08 PM

Baloney Mark Get your tail up to the next reunion and find some motivation there. Leave your cheesehead hat at home though

Posted by: gopack Apr 2 2011, 07:24 PM

Next saturday? I'm planning on making it now that the weather is better! Just have to slip out while the wife isnt looking! See Ya next week!
I promise NOT to wear a cheesehead, but I CAN NOT promise not to wear some superbowl XLV gear!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 07:41 PM

Actually a week from Sunday. I am trying to make it possible for Randy to come. He usually can't 'cause he is slinging veggies at work...

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 2 2011, 07:43 PM

It doesn't seem to matter what it costs.. Our kit program is slammed until November and we only have one slot left open then for a February 2012 delivery.

To build an engine from scratch like this is a 10K+ expenditure to incklude the kit, induction, exhaust and ancillaries. In turn key form its around 13K hot off my dyno in a crate like this one, ready to run.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 2 2011, 07:51 PM

Actually, someone asked how much at Original Customs last weekend while I was working on my car. A 912 guy. That was exactly the answer I gave him and Mark agreed. I have no idea really.

All I can say is work hard so you can write checks that don't bounce...

Posted by: raw1298 Apr 2 2011, 11:29 PM

I cant wait to see this in person. Looks like fun!!!

Posted by: Scarlet75 Apr 3 2011, 04:47 AM

So you are saying that a turn key engine just like this is 13K? Thats what I am reading here. Must have missed that one on the website

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 11:54 AM

There is a good deal of stuff you must supply. That can add thousands depending on what you have and what you need to source. The nice thing about Jake's turnkey program is that it comes out of that box, broken in, tuned and ready to go...

Posted by: JRust Apr 3 2011, 12:06 PM

We definately want Jim there . I know there are a few of the home brewing guys looking forward to what is coming . I sure feel for Jim. I have driven friends 914's before & had mine driven by others. That kind of scenarion is everyone's nightmare. happens though & is past. It will be great to see your 914 in all it's new glory

Posted by: 396 Apr 3 2011, 01:58 PM

Congrats!!.. When you start walking away from some of the cars out there, they will be scratching their heads
Cost wise ya.. bring lots and lots of it. Then an old Porsche tech mentioned way way back- if you want to play – bring $.

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Apr 3 2011, 02:00 PM

I'd just like to say I hate you and never want to talk to you again

Okay, in all honesty, this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while

Now, I will be sure to take a few great shots of your car near some classy garbage cans at the WCR.

Rob, you sure do have some cool toys

Posted by: patssle Apr 3 2011, 03:20 PM

Oh I wasn't interested in buying, just curious to compare it to my /6 conversion which seems to be around the same HP.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 03:37 PM

But 150# heavier. But as I said, this thread isn't about that so don't go there...

Posted by: ottox914 Apr 3 2011, 04:26 PM

I had a little preview of this when I was in CA a month ago or so. Nice motor. If those dyno charts on page 1 are even close to what you'll be making, HOLD ON!!!!

I can only hope once I get the turbo motor perfected I'll be in that ballpark.

Congrats on a great project! Now bolt that thing in and go zombie hunting!!!

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 3 2011, 04:34 PM

This combo isn't on the site as an advertised offering. This is a full custom build that I choose to offer to some purchasers that have cars that are properly set up for this type of power.

Yes it is expensive and it always will be.

Posted by: Mike914 Apr 3 2011, 08:45 PM

Yup!

Looks good! I see you're full-flowing it.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 10:19 PM

Yes, we have most definitely left this in the past...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 10:31 PM

This is an idea I had which I ran by McMark. He didn't shake his head and say something demeaning so I contacted Jeff Hines (sixnotfour) who quite quickly ran me up two of them with different sizes on the hose bib... This of course, takes the place of the distributor since this engine will be crank fired. Both the head vents have been plugged and we will be venting the case through here and returning any oil through the the old PCV hole in the oil console...

I cannot caution enough, do not build an engine without properly venting the case. You could blow out seals and have leaks that will be legendary!


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Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Apr 3 2011, 10:35 PM

Jeff does some really cool stuff. Can't wait to see this engine in person Rob

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 10:47 PM

Jeff reminds me of a buddy I had in high school. His Dad owned a machine shop with lots of Govt. contracts and they had lots of titanium around. He replicated a bunch of part on his snowmobile in titanium and had that thing weighing in about 25# lighter. It freakin' flew. Jeff is a great guy too. I hear he even made 'That Guy' once!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 10:54 PM

Yes, full flow for sure... In fact here is another Original Customs innovation/fabrication... The filter console is mounted to the engine room wall ala 911 Carrera. Mark fabricated this cup to catch any oil that might drip during oil filter change out. He welded in a nipple that has a hose attached to it and the oil then just drips out through the hose.


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Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Apr 3 2011, 11:09 PM

Excellent idea. I always hated the BS engineering that goes into the filter locations only to drip in all sorts of odd areas.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 3 2011, 11:12 PM

That was all McMark's idea. Old school fabrication skills too. He used a hammer and a shot bag to shape it and then powdercoated it to make it purdy!!!

Posted by: McMark Apr 4 2011, 09:41 AM

Now hold on just a second...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 4 2011, 12:15 PM

Got Ya!

Mark, will you replace that picture of the crankcase vent with the full size version and embed the video of the cam run in? Thanks!

Posted by: JmuRiz Apr 4 2011, 12:37 PM

Ooo, that'll be some cool outlaw!
And hey, it's still 25% the cost of a Polo 4-cyl 911 engine

Posted by: McMark Apr 4 2011, 02:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MMi4z5JCnA

Posted by: Dave_Darling Apr 4 2011, 05:42 PM

So, any idea why the #1 exhaust pipe got so hot? Was it just for break-in, or was it still doing it the next time you fired it up?

What were you doing with that box and wire near the end?

--DD

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 4 2011, 05:48 PM

Dave,
That pipe is drilled for a EGT probe. So there was an open tiny hole allowing air in and burning unburned fuel in the pipe. Add to that, those carbs were inadequate for that motor so it was running lean. It wasn't a problem because the engine was on a stand and not under load.

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 4 2011, 06:09 PM

Thats header always has an elevated EGT on #1. We have been seeing this for years on the dyno.

Posted by: McMark Apr 4 2011, 08:30 PM

The box w/ wire was a Fluke meter with a temperature probe on it. I was checking the exhaust pipe voltage.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 4 2011, 10:09 PM

Silly Mark! Whatcha spect? It was 12 volt just like the rest of the damned car

Posted by: Dave_Darling Apr 4 2011, 11:57 PM

Cool, all of those make sense. Even McMark's answer, sort of.

Thanks for clearing that up.

--DD

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2011, 01:09 AM

Dave, I love that you understand us... But, no. Those answers don't make sense. You can come and hang with us at the OC anytime!

Posted by: Racer Chris Apr 5 2011, 07:29 AM

How could you tell the #1 pipe was hot with the #2 pipe glowing so brightly nearby?

BTW, running that lean is a quick way to destroy the coating on a header.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2011, 09:24 AM

Chris,
This is not your original coating. They were just re-coated at a Jet Hot facility here before being installed. Once the EFI is on, they will never run that hot again. After the 20 minutes, the header coating looks fine.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 7 2011, 08:31 PM

Here is another Original Customs application. This is something that Mark has done on a few EFI engine builds so it is tested and works. One of the parameters SDS uses to meter fuel is the temperature and thus, density of the intake air. This is the IAT or intake air temperature sensor. Mark has fabricated a mount that puts this between the air cleaners on the right side throttle bodies.
Next up, the linkage. A much better than hex bar solution!


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Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 7 2011, 08:57 PM

Rob,

That engine needs a car! Hurry up!

Posted by: McMark Apr 7 2011, 09:07 PM

Booyah!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 7 2011, 09:14 PM

Now that is a very accurate linkage set up. Mark had to source longer threaded rod to go between the pivot and the throttle body because this engine is so wide.
Nicely activated by this sexy little cable guide fabricated by Mark at the OC... I like it!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 7 2011, 09:18 PM

Mike - it's going to go about 3 feet in front of this license plate... (ignore the damned garbage can Bovey!)


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Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 7 2011, 09:21 PM

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Apr 7 2011, 09:26 PM

why ROb, would I ever comment on a picture of your car with a garbage can?

Posted by: jgara962 Apr 7 2011, 09:29 PM

Can't wait to see it in person Rob!

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Apr 8 2011, 02:24 PM

BTDT

I am WAY overdue for a trip to OC! Can't believe it is April already. Fo sure will be there for the swap meet in May.
Best wishes for a long and prosperous relationship with your newest TIV creation!

Posted by: Cambo Apr 8 2011, 08:28 PM

I was wishfully thinking Rob and Mark were going to put that motor in my yellow car by mistake.......

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 8 2011, 08:53 PM

Don't just dream! Build one!!!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 9 2011, 09:45 AM

I foresee a time when you will have to go through an interview to buy a Raby Kit. There aren't many cases of this but Jake has a hard time tolerating stupidity. By that I mean people who build it and then don't tune it correctly or don't have the proper gauges or don't use the proper oil. If it doesn't run right you should find out why, not keep driving it until you break it. Bad things usually don't get better and when something is this expensive to buy and build it just seems to be common sense to figure out what is wrong and correct it. I guess common sense isn't as common as it once was though...

My car has Elephant bushings, Tarret bar in front, adjustable Koni's, Camber bushings and sealed monoball in the suspension. All topped off with a meticulous corner balancing. My 901 has been built with a billet intermediate plate and a Guard TB unit. I have an M 3rd and S 4th gear in there and Jake would be a proud papa if I fractured that thing with the torque.

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Apr 9 2011, 10:48 AM

Well shit, there goes MY chances of ever getting a Raby engine

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 9 2011, 02:24 PM

Our kit program is filled till November and only on e slot exists for November initiation with a February 2012 delivery.

We can only produce 12 engine kits per year without robbing parts from our turnkey program. This has become more pronounced in the past 18 months as quality parts get fewer and farther between.

I've been interviewing potential purchasers for the past 14 years, just like they interview me in the initial steps of any engine purchase. This is a two way street, when I sell an engine myself and that purchaser are married with no divorce possible. We must be compatible.

I am very reserved, which is why I've been more successful with pleasing my purchasers than most other engine companies in this industry.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 17 2011, 09:28 AM

I've gotten a couple PM's wanting to hear more progress. We are waiting on the custom SDS harness. This is kind of a complicated process that involves knowing where everything will be located, laying out the wires, acquiring and attaching all of the appropriate ends. If McMark has time, maybe he can elaborate on the process. Once he is done building it of course

Posted by: McMark Apr 28 2011, 10:27 AM

Got the wiring diagram drawn up yesterday. There are about 30 wires to keep track of, which doesn't seem like much until you start researching component pin-outs (which pin of this TPS is signal, power or ground?). And the SDS documentation leaves a whole HELL of a lot to be desired. Too many acronyms and no consistency between different references to the same wire. Oh, and during this I discovered that the stickers SDS put on the coil for which cylinder hooks where were WRONG.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing simple about SDS is the name.

Hope you don't mind my RANT, Rob.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 28 2011, 11:02 AM

Sorry Mark. Think of yourself as a pioneer. For those of you who want to know why we are building a custom harness here is a bit of an explanation. The harness that is supplied with the SDS system is made to fit any application. It has wiring long enough to get to anything you can dream up for mounting locations. Add to this, the harness appears to be a little less than ready for the harsh environment of an engine compartment. It looks more like something you might hook up an office computer network.
For this reason, I took the 'delete harness' option when ordering. This takes $250 off. Granted, it will cost more than that to have Mark build me a harness but I will not have coiled up harness under the passenger seat and in the engine compartment.
Ross at SDS answers his own phones so he is a ready reference...
Mark is a bit more of the lap top programmable aftermarket EFI guy... He likes all the tables and graphs you can generate using Megasquirt and such... I just want to drive.

Now to be fair to SDS, their harness must work well. They put it in retrofit airplanes and I have not been hearing of them falling out of the sky due to harness failure.

Posted by: McMark Apr 28 2011, 11:33 AM

True. I usually remember to include that caveat. SDS obviously works well. There are plenty of cars out there with it. The system simply doesn't live up to my aesthetic demands, which I'll be the first to admit are a bit over-bearing. But I want things to look nice, as well as function properly.

Posted by: Zimms Apr 28 2011, 11:45 AM

So is this a possible additional product? I would be interested. I have a 2270 Raby kit waiting in my basement, and I plan on doing SDS with ITB's source yet undetermined.

Nice build Rob and Mark. I am loving this thread.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 28 2011, 11:58 AM

I think Mark definitely plans to do this again... I often end up his guinea pig in his quest for knowledge!

The source I used were actually someone else's cast-off project stuff. But for your reference the Throttle bodies are Jenvey out of England I think. The manifolds are the same as the common carb manifolds. All other sensors are available through SDS.

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 28 2011, 06:50 PM

As it should be.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 28 2011, 06:58 PM

Mark is pretty particular about things being right... Might have something to do with the fact that he hasn't driven a 914 that he owns in years...

OOOoops! I just earned another demeaning look!

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 28 2011, 08:56 PM

I can totally relate. It's the ol pumber with the toilet that won't flush. Never have time for your own stuff.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 30 2011, 05:59 PM

Hard to believe this pile of wire is close to becoming a wiring harness...

Posted by: Elliot Cannon May 30 2011, 06:06 PM

Rob, I saw your engine at the McSwap meet. It looks great. (You weren't there for some lame assed reason). When Mark wasn't looking, I carved my initials on the case of your engine.
Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: ConeDodger May 30 2011, 06:47 PM

Great! The value just went up a couple thousand! Eric Clapton autographed!

Posted by: McMark May 30 2011, 07:39 PM

Harness mockup goodness....


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Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2011, 09:09 PM

OMG! Looks like McMark hired munchkin wire writers to keep the wires organized!


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Posted by: r_towle Jun 3 2011, 09:30 PM

they DO make wires with different colors....

R

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2011, 10:12 PM

True enough... but one color of wire with numbers written on them that correspond to this (see below) is cheaper and very useful...




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Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 27 2011, 09:14 AM

What was once a pile of wires is now a fuel injection harness! Plans are to mock it up and tune it without load on the engine stand this week...

Stay tuned!

Posted by: Randal Jul 27 2011, 10:34 AM

What have you done with your CV's Rob?

FYI my brand new (stock) ones lasted about 20 runs, then fell apart. 944 CV need to be in your future.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 27 2011, 11:36 AM

Paul Sayegh had his custom made for his 3.6 conversion. I plan on doing the same. For now, I'll just plan on breaking them.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 27 2011, 12:36 PM

This morning in a meeting my team agreed that engine kits are taking way too much away from our turnkey focus and moreover are sucking up our parts that are used for the turnkey program.

Due to this we have decided to only complete SIX engine kits per year and to only process them in November- February.

This is effective immediately, the November batch for 2011 is already filled with deposited commitments from buyers. These will be delivered in February of 2012. We will be accepting applications for those who want to be part of the batch of kits that begin in November of 2012 and deliver in February of 2013 sometime in the next 3-4 months.

This is the only way we can continue the engine kit program, it is too demanding labor and component wise to do year round and is such a great program that we can't cancel it. Offerings will stay the same as well as all the other processes, we will simply only do the one batch of kits per year.

Rob, You got the only 2432cc kit we ever produced.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 27 2011, 12:43 PM

I know

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 28 2011, 12:30 AM

Seems I jumped the gun. Mark is buried in work that has to get out due to his recent vacation to the You Pee in Michigan. So we might be a week or two out yet...

Posted by: McMark Jul 28 2011, 12:01 PM

It's your fault for adding that AAR.


That holds water, right?

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 28 2011, 12:32 PM

So far... but there is a slow leak

Oh and Mark, I think I will take today off and just vegetate. By 8:45am I had all that I could take for today... I will not be coming down...

Edit: I was being cryptic here. It was too painful to type the words. At 8:45am my Golden Retriever Chloe who was a few weeks shy of her 17th birthday died. She waited for me to return from Reno and died in my arms. She was a Search and Rescue dog and I was her host family until she retired then she was all mine. If I was home, she would never leave my side and I still look for her lying on the garage floor as I work on the car...

Posted by: wndsrfr Jul 28 2011, 08:52 PM

As you're working with the SDS system, watch carefully the use of the MAP sensing--I couldn't ever get my 2316 to work really right with the vacuum numbers jumping around so much from the ragged signal that the huge TB's and 9560 cam produced. Typical vacuum numbers were around 6-10"Hg and varying rapidly on the SDS readout. Throttle response at AX and a DE at VIR was not linear at all.
After much discussion with Barry & Ross at SDS, I dropped the MAP sensing and went to TP sensing. Did it as their literature describes, then dyno'd it to do the final map. It's a procedure that has to be carefully followed, but has worked like a dream on my engine. Took it to another AX and DE & got perfect throttle response throughout the range. PM me for phone contact if you want.

John

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 28 2011, 09:23 PM

John,
I have heard that about the vacuum signal. I am hoping that this common manifold will 'even' out the signal to the MAP sensor and solve some if not all of that. While I appreciate the offer to PM or call, I want to keep the discussion open to everyone so that we can all learn from our collaborative experience.
The manifold will take individual vacuum signal from each throttle body throat and output their average to the MAP sensor. Somehow, we are also using the stock AAR to give me somewhat of a cold start boost that will take the one minute of bitchy motor out of the equation. This is something Dave Hunt did with his and it works. By the way, Dave has the best running Type IV motor I have ever driven. He tossed me the keys at WCR2011 and said 'go drive' and I came back grinning.


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Posted by: Randal Jul 28 2011, 09:37 PM

We had the same issue on Roger Crawfords dyno down in LA with my 2.4. Decided to go with the TP positioning as well and it worked. We had some pretty heady folks at that dyno run so the right decision was made.

Posted by: Randal Jul 28 2011, 09:37 PM

We had the same issue on Roger Crawford's dyno (Heads-Up Performance) down in LA with my 2.4. Decided to go with the TP positioning as well and it worked. We had some pretty heady folks at that dyno run and made what has proved to be the right decision.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 29 2011, 09:20 AM

I found this on the SDS FAQ on their site. This adds to the discussion. SDS seems to be saying that the driveability issues are acceptable to race engines. However, both of the people who bring up this issue are running race engines and found the problem unacceptable. When I ordered my system, I made it clear that the engine would be in a street car that was autocrossed frequently and did occasional track days. I believe I was talking to Ross and he made no mention of this problem. There is the possibility that the problem has been programmed out of the later ECU's but I doubt that...

08/13/03 Concerns When Using Multiple Throttle Plate Induction Systems

We have recently had several calls from people running induction systems with one throttle plate per cylinder and independent runner manifolds using our systems on street driven vehicles. These people often complain of marginal driveability under low throttle openings and/or low rpm conditions. We have never recommended the use of our systems with IR manifolds for the street, especially when using a MAP sensor for load sensing. The situation is worsened when combining this hardware with hotter cams, resulting in an unacceptable vacuum signal for the MAP sensor. This is race type hardware, generally not suitable for street use unless the user accepts decreased driveability and/or switches to TP load sensing

The vacuum averaging canister required on IR applications will result in a lower than actual vacuum reading than would be seen on a plenum type manifold setup due to the fact that all the ports which don't have a valve open to establish flow are leaking air into the canister. There is no way around this and this is the reason why few OEMs use speed density EFI systems with this hardware, they usually use an airflow/mass sensing system instead. Also, 95% of all production cars use plenum type manifolds. Our general rule of thumb for using a MAP sensor in any street application is a minimum of 15 inches of idle vacuum. Less than this any you may have to switch to TP load sensing with its own disadvantages. Race stuff on the street is usually fraught with compromises often not worth the gains in power after you live with the car for a while. Big, open mufflers bore into your brain on the highway, hot cams make the bottom end, driveability, fuel economy and emissions suck, huge turbos have big lag and high compression/high boost leads to detonation and broken engines running on pump fuel. Use your noggin here and don't expect miracles.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 29 2011, 09:49 AM

Below is the procedure from SDS for tuning with TPS only. I anticipate Dave Hunt joining this discussion later as he is probably tuning someone's teeth right about now. I wonder what Dave did?

Tuning TPS Only Systems

01/21/99 Revised 04/18/00

About 95% of the systems that we ship out use a MAP sensor. For engines with radical camshafts, low volume IR (individual runner) type manifolds or 2 strokes, the TPS can be used for load sensing. After spending several hours on the phone recently, helping customers tune their TPS systems, we decided to see how difficult this really was. Using our trusty Toyota Supra, we switched the ECU to read the TPS rather than the MAP sensor for load information.

Working on what we thought would be a reasonable curve for TP values vs. throttle angle, we started the car. It took only a few seconds to get the idle smooth. We spent some time upping the values just above closed throttle to stop a lean condition just when the clutch was let out. Then it was out to the highway for major setup.

It took about 30 minutes, using the mixture meter to get the TP map set quite well. By changing the RPM values below the normal idle range, we were able to get really good response and driveability everywhere. The mixture meter makes tuning much quicker and we highly recommend them for both TP and MAP systems.

Here is our recommended tuning procedure for TP systems:

Read the closed or idle Throttle Position in Gauge 1 mode.

Go into the TP values and enter 30 at this throttle position.

As a start, increase the values at each subsequent TP by 2 per location.

Now, start the engine and change the RPM FUEL values at idle rpm to obtain a smooth idle.

Enter the same RPM FUEL value all the way up the rpms. For instance if it idles great with a fuel value of 100 at 1000 rpm, enter 100 at all the rpm ranges.

Drive the car on the highway using 4th or 5th gear. A stretch of road with some hills may be helpful. Leave the rpm fairly constant by using the brake or hill to limit acceleration. Hold something like 3000 rpm and slowly open the throttle while watching the TP in gauge 1 mode.

At each new TP, look at the mixture meter and see if it is rich or lean at that TP. If it is lean at TP 13 for example, increase the value at TP 13 until the mixture meter reads correctly. It is essential that the TP be held at that location while you set the TP value. Also, a change in rpm may change the mixture slightly as well, so try to hold rpm constant with the brakes. Remember to vary only one parameter at a time so that you know which one is affecting the mixture.

Once you have set the TP value at 13, go on to 14 and so on. Going up a hill when you start getting close to full throttle will help save the brakes a bit.

Now, with all the TP values set at one rpm range, you want to pick a TP to hold constantly while the rpm is varied. Choose 3rd gear so that you don't get a big ticket and a TP of 20 for example. Hold the TP at 20 in gauge 1 mode and let the car accelerate while watching the mixture meter.

Note the rpm in gauge 1 where the mixture changes from what you want. If the engine is running nicely at 3000 to 3500 but starts to lean out at 4000, you can increase the RPM FUEL value a bit starting at 3750 rpm and a bit more at 4000.

Use the brakes to stabilize the rpm while you set the value. You can flick between your RPM FUEL set points and Gauge by hitting the gauge button back and forth. This saves a lot of scrolling. Set the RPM FUEL values all the way up at the same TP value. The engine should now run quite well under all TP and RPM conditions.

Once you get it set well on the highway, you can set the off idle range. You may find the engine slightly lean just off idle when letting the clutch out. You might have to ramp up the values on the first 3-6 TP locations above idle TP. We also found that the engine responded better by upping the RPM FUEL values at 500 and 750 rpm which allowed the engine to be slightly richer as the rpm sagged under clutch engagement. With the engine idle at 1000 rpm, these could be adjusted without screwing up the idle mixture.

We always recommend using a MAP sensor for street driven or turbo vehicles whenever possible as they run better and give you more programming options. If you must use a TP system for a race or radical street installation, following the above procedure will work well.

Below is a graph of TP values vs. throttle angle for our test Supra. Also see the complete values set on the Sample fuel maps Page.
TP VALUES GRAPH

Update 04/18/00 Start values

It should be noted that there is a difference between a system set up using TP load sensing as compared to MAP with regards to the amount of fuel supplied during startup. The mixture will be leaner with TP because it chooses the closed throttle value which is around 30 usually whereas a MAP system will chose a value near atmospheric pressure (80 to 110 in most cases). Because of this, you may have to raise the START values or develop a technique of pumping the accelerator during cranking to get enough fuel for good starting.

R.F.

Posted by: dlestep Jul 29 2011, 11:34 AM

rob,
I'm anxious to hear about throttle response and how it breathes, once you get it set up fully.
You may already know about this stuff, but I thought I would suggest something just in case.
There are colorized type-able heat shrink labels that you could use identifying signal names near each termination, over black heat shrink tubing to keep the number individual wires to a minimum.
A visit to a local harness contractor could show you alot of cool, clean ways to deal with mechanical articulation, vibration isolation, thermal issues and what not...

something like this...http://www.te.com/catalog/labels-identification/cable/menu/en/23686

Posted by: mrbubblehead Jul 29 2011, 11:38 AM

interesting.....on our ktm v-twin FI motorcycles we use map and tps.....map up to 10% throttle position the it switches to tps. its called the F-L switch. the map sensor gives waybetter resolution at lower throttle settings. both the F (map) and L (tps) maps are tunable. as well as the switch. which gives smooth transitions. just like going from idle to mains with carburators.

i dont know why that system wont work with map sensors..... our bikes have 2 throttle bodies for two cylinders on individual runners with one map sensor per runner, and one tps for both tb's. we run huge cams with big valves and dont have a problem.

we use the stock (keihin) ecu that we break into with software to make any change we want.

Posted by: mrbubblehead Jul 29 2011, 12:00 PM

we also map each individual cylinder.....unless you have 4 perfectly matched injectors. this is a good read about how different injectors can be...... http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors.htm

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 29 2011, 12:09 PM

The only problem with TP only based set ups is no compensation for atmospheric conditions variations. In my Double Cab with SDS I use TP only up to 2,400 RPM, because after that the effects of the cam and ports doesn't make for nearly as much loss of tunability.

This is one reason I went to work with Electromotive on their new motorcycle systems retrofitted to one of our engines. The ability of this system to include part throttle "mixing" to overcome large cams and lower manifold vacuum has been amazing.

I have been very impressed with the results on the dyno and initially in my 912E, which is almost ready for road testing in everyday conditions as my daily driver. The engine runs so much smoother with the system than it did with any other system. I used Kit Carlson, Link, SDS and a system I was helping another company develop and none had the ability to provide the stable 800 RPM idle and immediate throttle response like the Electromotive set up.

Posted by: wndsrfr Jul 29 2011, 12:31 PM

"I have heard that about the vacuum signal. I am hoping that this common manifold will 'even' out the signal to the MAP sensor and solve some if not all of that. "
**Mine has the same 4 into 1 manifold....I even put in a restrictor (wire welder .030 tip) but still had the problem...it just has too little vacuum (high manifold pressure).

"Somehow, we are also using the stock AAR to give me somewhat of a cold start boost that will take the one minute of bitchy motor out of the equation."
**Hmmm...the SDS table gives an engine temp fuel richening curve for cold starts & it's working great for me...cold starting does take 2-3 pumps & maybe 10 seconds of holding 2000rpm, then it settles into a nice lope. As it warms up, the SDS leans the mixture and eventually switches into closed loop as I've currently got it set. With the chronically low oil pressure when the engine's hot hot from a hard run, I have the idle set about 1200rpm to avoid low oil pressure.

I think Barry & Ross's part about driveability on the street with a race setup is to let buyers know that it's not going to behave like your stock BMW/Volvo/Porsche with a factory system. I've got no issues with driveability on TP load sensing.

Something to note is that with these torquey engines in such a light car, in street driving, you're just barely cracking the throttle plates & are exceeding 55mph. For instance, with the throttle slam closed it's at TP 5. (TP at WOT is 50.) Driving in 4th gear at TP 6 gives 50mph & 5th gear gives 60mph with the throttle still at TP 6, going to TP 7 with a little headwind. Half the time as traffic dictates or in a 45 speed limit zone I'm cruising within the throttle range of TP 5. There's just hardly anything the injection system can use when your car idles at 55mph....
All the rest of the throttle plate's movement is reserved for those "wild hair" moments--oops, meant to say "tuning pulls" and the DE's & AX's....

Posted by: wndsrfr Jul 29 2011, 01:00 PM

Hey, I want one of those vents for mine...can't wait to plug off those pesky head lines....how can I get one??

Also, I noticed that the oil lines to the filter & cooler are barb fitting hoses. I just got the Potomac PCA DE tech inspection form & it forbids any pressurized oil lines with press on fittings, clamps or no. Soooo....since I really didn't like the looks of all those hose clamps on mine, I removed them, went to my friendly NAPA store and got proper hoses made up...cost $115....looks much better & should pass tech with flying colors.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 29 2011, 05:38 PM

John,
You may be able to get one by contacting sixnotfour here on the site. He is the machinist who made it up for me...

TPS tuning only may be a problem for me. I have homes in both Sacramento (sea level) and Reno (4500 feet above sea level). I work in Reno.

Is it possible to tune with with MAP for 10% of throttle and then TPS with SDS? I don't think my cam is as radical as yours either John. I am running the same cam that was in my 2270 Raby Kit.

I like your oil lines but the PCA rules are precisely why I don't do TT with them. Sac Valley Region cuddles up with Trackmasters for DE and they don't have the rules. If I were to do a PCA TT I would have to use my 36 year old stock seatbelts instead of my competition belts... I am a dedicated PCA member but I can't see how that is safer than the 'compromise' of using competition belts without shoulder belt guides or whatever reason they disallow them.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 29 2011, 11:05 PM

HEY!

Get this thing running already!

I wanna see it go

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 30 2011, 08:33 AM

Jake,
Any idea what kind of vacuum I can expect?

Posted by: wndsrfr Jul 30 2011, 12:21 PM

Hmmmm.....I'm interested to know what the altitude does to TPS only sensing--I'll be up maybe 1000' at Summit Point and am at flat sea level here. Also, if you're doing only street driving, I think if you keep it in closed loop, it's going to adjust to 14:1 AFR automatically anyway. What do people with carbs do about altitude change? Are you going to be tracking or AX at the higher altitude?

I just put a vacuum guage on my car with the restrictor & taking the signal from the 4 into 1 manifold--sure enough at idle it rattles the needle like crazy and runs from 6" to 11" vacuum between idle and 2500rpm & no load, less needle jumping at the higher rpm ranges though. Only time the vacuum went above 15" was revving up and then slamming the throttle shut. Be interested to see what Jake offers about the vacuum on yours.

On the oil lines, I'm actually glad to get the push from PCA to upgrade them, & I guess the same goes for the seat restraints--they need to be part of a system & if not guided properly, the 5-point setup won't do what we would hope. Sooo...I'm in the market for a pair of racing seats, too. As it is, I left the OEM 3-point belts in and let the instructor take his choice--he chose the 5-point as did I....

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 30 2011, 01:34 PM

TPS sensing cannot adjust to barometric pressure changes. If you tune for sea level and drive up 1000' it will run worse. If you go higher it will run even worse. AFR is based on air density and air gets less dense the higher you go.


14.7:1 is stioch. Stoich is only good under light load. at cruise and idle you can go leaner without trouble and preserve gas milage. Under heavy load you want the mixture to go rich to make maximum power.

In my system (Haltech) I have 2 MAP sensors. The onboard is for barometric correction. This allows the system to compensate for the less dense air at altitude and cut back on fuel. The other MAP is monitoring manifold pressure. as my boost increases the system dumps in more fuel. Guys with carbs usually go to smaller jets at altitude. This causes a lean condition at sea level. Then you swap in larger jets. EFI is so much easier...

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 11 2011, 11:41 AM

So life has kept us busy lately... New Victoracers have had me out autocrossing every event I can find and McMark has been SWAMPED at his shop. But some progress is being made. Actually, we are so close it is just a matter of having the two of us in the same place at the same time really...

McMark built me a custom fuel line to feed the driver side injectors. I always hated that fuel line running across the engine thing and apparently McMark did too. I think he reads my mind sometimes because I didn't specifically ask for this.

Check out these custom lines...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 28 2011, 09:38 PM

Time for an update. Mark has pretty much everything mocked up and nearly ready to fire on the stand with the SDS EFI. Here are a few pictures Mark has posted both on his site and on Facebook. Notice at the back of the engine toward the flywheel, you have the vacuum plenum with lines coming from each runner of the intake. This may or may not work. We have had much debate over the MAP sensor and I honestly don't know what kind of vacuum to expect. Also notice McMark's attention to detail. He bent up fuel line to run fuel across to the driver side ITB's but he didn't stop there. He then sent the lines out to have them zinc plated. Very cool! The custom harness is all connected in the third picture.

This engine will go in the car within the next two weeks. Are you guys ready?


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Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 28 2011, 09:47 PM

Is that Grey Shrink tube? or just the way it looks in the photo?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 28 2011, 11:03 PM

Any thought to what happens to the fuel line if the fan belt breaks? It'd suck to have a high-pressure fuel leak from that.

--DD

Posted by: McMark Sep 28 2011, 11:11 PM

When was the last time you heard of a fan belt breaking? That line is steel, it's gonna take more than a fan belt to crack it open.

Posted by: Valy Sep 28 2011, 11:13 PM

I like the fuel rails you have. Do they accept the newer injectors without the hose?
Who makes them and where can I buy them?

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2011, 07:09 AM

Fuel rails are custom built by McMark at Original Customs. He can make them for you... As to your other questions, he will have to answer. I don't know.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2011, 07:11 AM

I think it is grey Rick. harness is custom built by Mark so he would have to tell you the source...

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 29 2011, 11:17 AM

Haven't heard of one in a long while. Still, low-probability high-consequence... But if you're confident that a flailing fan belt won't break the line, then I'll believe you.

Thrown belts are more likely, but they don't flail around in my experience.

--DD

Posted by: Marty Yeoman Sep 29 2011, 01:22 PM

I broke one back in '94. Can happen.

Posted by: Randal Sep 29 2011, 01:44 PM

Hope to see you down at the Marina at one of the events there.

BTW where did you and Mark hide the fuel filter?

Posted by: hydroliftin Sep 29 2011, 02:17 PM

I want to see it? When is the next pancake fest?

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2011, 09:42 PM

Randal,
I have one of those Fram canister filters just the the passenger side of where the fuel lines exit the tunnel in the engine room. That and the stock one up front. Fuel can't be too clean you know...

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 30 2011, 07:13 AM

The Bay Area Breakfast is a couple hundred miles for me... I made it a couple times over the years but that was from Sacramento when it was only a hundred miles... I do wander the autocross circuit when I have the weekend off and a place to stay...

Posted by: Valy Sep 30 2011, 10:04 AM

Maybe you should change your location in the signature...

Posted by: Randal Sep 30 2011, 10:39 AM

I've been really happy with my System 1 filter. No issues at all. Mine is mounted up front by the fuel cell, next to the Marren fuel pump. When I cleaned it last month I was surprised how much stuff it had collected. I mean stuff that would have ruined the injectors.

BTW when we went on the dyno with my motor we ended up using the TPS for determining the base line. If I remember correctly the other option, i.e., vacuum didn't work. Must have been something to do with the fairly aggressive configuration.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 30 2011, 10:08 PM

I would but I also own a house there...

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 30 2011, 10:11 PM

I am worried about not being able to use MAP Randall, but my cam isn't as aggressive as some... I guess we have to figure what kind of vacuum I am getting and go from there.
Check! Change the fuel filter.

Posted by: SCV Oct 1 2011, 12:05 PM

Looks fantastic, ConeDodger. Should be a blast to drive with a torque curve similar the figures posted earlier. I'll continue watching with interest, since a RED 2270 Type 4 turnkey with EFI is on my wish list. Cheers!

-Stephen

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 2 2011, 07:16 AM

2270 is a great engine. Love the torque. Less shifting, you just put your foot down and it has grunt everywhere!

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 6 2011, 11:38 AM

Oh man! Mark is getting so close to running this on the engine stand with the SDS EFI. If you recall earlier, we ran it with carbs to run the cam in.


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Posted by: r_towle Oct 6 2011, 03:31 PM

I am confused...and I admit I did not read the whole thread.

I thought you already had a larger than stock motor???
Is this for another car?

Rich

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 6 2011, 06:19 PM

No, I have a borrowed blueprinted but stock motor. The motor in my car belongs to Jcd914 and it is a treasure! It has extensive and meticulous balancing and port matched heads. I think it was referred to as a B Prepared Time Trial motor for the Golden Gate Region Time Trial program. I have to give it up when I put in this motor. The engine builders name is Dwight Mitchell and he is legendary in California Porsche circles.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 7 2011, 11:56 AM

let's get a move on here

How's it going to if you never start it!?!?

Posted by: r_towle Oct 7 2011, 12:36 PM

was this new large motor a rebuild of your stock motor?
I thought you had a larger than stock motor already....maybe a few years ago.

Rich

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 16 2011, 07:16 PM

Mark applied power and fuel pressure and nothing leaked or sizzled. Expect to see and hear it run tomorrow..

Posted by: jsconst Oct 16 2011, 09:08 PM

Rob are you going to be at marks tomorrow? If so maybe I'll take the boxster for a drive. I'd like to see marks shop, oh and your engine.

Jeff

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 16 2011, 09:37 PM

Jeff,
I will be in the trenches at work but you should go down to Mark's. He could use an engine room framed up and rocked. He just doesn't know it yet...

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 17 2011, 09:07 PM

So here is the second short video. I am not sure how far Mark got tuning today but the ECU came tuned full rich and she was dumping fuel on first start up. This was better and I have to tell you, I got a funny feeling in my happy place when I heard Mark rev it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c5fcKRRCRI

Posted by: McMark Oct 17 2011, 09:12 PM

Exciting milestone....

Most of the tuning will be done in the car, but now we know for sure that everything is hooked up correctly and the crank trigger setup is reading the magnets. Basically, all the stuff you'd want to know before you go through the effort of installing the engine.

Oh, and I fixed your YouTube.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 17 2011, 09:16 PM

Thanks. The first email you sent me today you put the imbed code in, the second you didn't. I pondered it for a minute and then thought 'oh hell, Mark will fix the imbed code for me and give me a demeaning look...' well deserved of course

Posted by: McMark Oct 17 2011, 09:16 PM

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 17 2011, 09:27 PM

Here is the tuning profile SDS sent right out of the box. Pretty darn rich. Plus the fuel pressure was too high. I think we are supposed to be running about 40psi but Jake or Blake may chime in with an opinion about that... I got this around noon today and thought 'oh crap'... But like Mark said, even this was a little victory. It fires up and runs with zero tuning. Everything is correctly hooked up. It is just a matter of tuning it in the car under load and she will be good to go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdq8IPSOss

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 18 2011, 12:10 PM

congrats. that's awesome

Posted by: Randal Oct 18 2011, 05:57 PM

And his motors last and last and last. I ridden a bunch in Dwight's orange 911, which a friend of mine bought and it's a rocket. Dwight got tired of kicking everyone butt in a 914, built a 911 and did the same.

Oh, glad to see that you got that motor started; better to run it rich than lean.

Now the fun part starts. It's too bad they don't make an automatic fuel map program. That would have save me a bunch of money.

Although I have to say the re-tune that Vic Sias did with my motor on a chassis dyno was done quickly and was reasonable.

Keep us informed how the tuning is going. All pretty exciting.

Posted by: ottox914 Oct 18 2011, 09:23 PM

NICE!!!!!!!

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 18 2011, 10:24 PM

I knew Vic was doing some tuning. I didn't realize it was on a chassis dyno. Vic Sias is a former SCCA National Champion Solo II driver in a 240Z. I autocrossed with him during the same year he won the championship.

I think we will put it in and get it close using 'road load' to tune and then find a chassis dyno for the fine tuning. Mark has some very nice mountain roads near the shop. The Oakville grade should give us lots of mid-range stuff to work with and WOT can be had on the freeway.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 18 2011, 11:23 PM

what are you measuring with that Fluke meter in post #60?

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 18 2011, 11:26 PM

ps. I Like how she smooths out in the break-in. should be a real stump puller

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 19 2011, 07:46 AM

I think that is Mark's LM2 A:F meter. Either that or he is making sure the Tangerine Header is 12 Volt

Actually Sean, Mark is checking the temperature of the header and the temperature of the air being exhausted from the fan housing. He has some product under development and needs to know if his material choice will have a problem with temperature.

Posted by: Randal Oct 19 2011, 10:52 AM

Did you see those nice EGT gauges, the aircraft ones. I found a thermocouple company that has the right ones for exhaust bungs. Of course the gauges are not cheap, but they are SAFE. Maybe good insurance given that your going to be tuning on the road?

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 19 2011, 10:57 AM

I am using both an EGT and CHT aircraft gauge. I also have the A:F ratio gauge going in the clock hole in my Appearance Group center console. I would really like it to be the third gauge in an A pillar pod but thus far Morph hasn't taken my not-so-subtle hints.


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Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Oct 19 2011, 02:06 PM

Awesome news
Your 914 was rippin fast when you let me take it for a spin around the old Napa shop several years ago, I can only imaging how the new improved TIV model will feel. Then again, all other 914s feel fast compared to my stock 1.7

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 19 2011, 03:08 PM

I see DanT lurking. This engine was built with a case I got from him. Thanks Dan

Posted by: r_towle Oct 19 2011, 03:27 PM

It would be interesting to get it on a dyno just to see what it can produce for power...plus fine tuning on a dyno is alot easier than watching a screen while you drive...haha

Rich

Posted by: jsconst Oct 20 2011, 12:08 AM

Saw your motor yesterday, very impressive. Enjoyed talking to Mark, but despite his encouragement and great tips I decided to have him build my motor also ( sent you an email Mark). Have fun putting your new motor in the car, should be a blast to drive.

Jeff

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 20 2011, 07:24 AM

Jeff,
Sometimes writing a check is the best way to get the project moving...

Posted by: Randal Oct 20 2011, 09:26 AM

Got to be a chassis dyno within a short distance from Mark's shop.

No question it's easier to tune on a dyno and IMHO less risk. And certainly as Rich mentions trying to do it while driving will be interesting. Hey, but the sidewalks roll up in Sonoma at 5:00pm right?

Posted by: Randal Oct 20 2011, 09:27 AM

Did you see that nice 2.0 case that Mark has in his shop now?

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 21 2011, 08:35 AM

No... I haven't been to Mark's for quite a while. I can't take the demeaning looks

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 21 2011, 08:51 AM

I am of a mixed mind on this... I would love to do some dyno time tuning it. But if as you and several others have said - I end up using TPS to tune it, sea level tuning does me almost no good unless I copy the tuning and save it somehow. The car will spend most of its time in Reno where the elevation can change from 4500' to 5500' in 30 miles. Head East on either Hwy 50 or 80 and you get to 7300'.
If I had done my research, I would have bought a system that I could 'flash' tune for different altitudes. I plan on doing as much of the SCCA Solo II series here in Reno as I can but I also plan to get over the hill to Sacramento and even as far away as Marina and Santa Rosa.
SDS just released their EM-5 series. I browsed it a bit but I don't think it has gotten sophisticated enough to switch from TPS to MAP at different RPM's and besides, John makes a good point, when driving this engine on the highway, I will be just north of idle at cruising speed.
Knowing Mark, it wouldn't surprise me if he comes up with something to amplify and smooth the vacuum signal.
Dave Hunt's motor runs AMAZINGLY well. I think he went back to MegaSquirt though.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 21 2011, 08:53 AM

Note to SDS: Make an ECU that has a USB port that you can up/download tuning parameters to.

Posted by: brp986s Oct 21 2011, 09:20 AM

Can't you use an altitude sensor from '84 - '89 carrera to tweak a SDS input?

Posted by: Randal Oct 21 2011, 10:21 AM

My rig has a O2 sensor on it that I thought compensated for altitude. I'll have to go back and check the documentation.

Posted by: stewteral Oct 21 2011, 11:02 AM

Hi ConeDodger,

Beautiful engine and impressive power. I'm especially impressed with the FLAT torque curve!: Raby has really got a great cam there.

I have only 1 question: After all the work & $$ you're investing in the engine, how can you trust it's "Life's blood" (oil) to run through rubber hoses with hose clamps? Hose clamps DO loosen up!

My suggestion: buy some ends & tubing from Summit Racing (Earl's or Aeroquip, etc.) and make up stainless steel wire-wrapped oil lines!!! I am commited to using these on oil and gas lines 'cause if a rubber hose fails on them, it's BIG TROUBLE!

Thanks for all the great pics!!

Terry

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 21 2011, 11:36 AM

This suggestion has already been made in this thread. I will likely have some hoses made by NAPA but to use a phrase one of our resident engineers has already brought up in this thread, this is "low probability, high consequence."

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 21 2011, 11:53 AM

SDS compensates for altitude. I believe it takes a pressure at start up and that value is used in the fuel calculation. It also has a mixture knob that enriches and leans the whole fuel table. So a tune for sea level should work at altitude. The problem is the value taken at start up is used until the car is started again. For most of us this isn't a problem but, when changes in altitude are really large this could be a problem or at least a nuisance.

I had problems with this at WCR 10 in Tahoe. When you increase altitude there is less O2 so the required fuel is less. My concern was that it seemed the correction the ECU used each time I started the car was going the wrong way and I had to enrich the fuel table instead of leaning it as I went up the mountain. Until I realized what was going on I was real concerned. The SDS mixture knob was a handy work around but there was an underlying problem. I suspect it was a firmware issue and SDS would require the computer be sent in to them. I'm sure it would have been an easy fix for them, I just decided to go different direction.

I am running Megasquirt now and one of the reasons is that I can run 2 pressure sensors. The first one samples the manifold pressure to for engine load and the second constantly samples atmospheric pressure to continually adjust for altitude.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 21 2011, 12:51 PM

Dave,
Thanks for taking time to comment. I know you are busy with Betsy these days. I hope she is doing well.

I will be running an EM-4 F ECU. This is of course the 4 cylinder - crankfired set up. What SDS set up were you running?

So, if I understand you correctly, I should be alright the second time I start it at a given altitude?

Posted by: r_towle Oct 21 2011, 01:33 PM

So, if you are going out on a short trip...50 miles or so, you would be best advised by SDS to pull over three times and turn off the motor, then start it again to reset the ECU for a proper mixture?

I suspect most of the world does not have your specific regional elevation changes.....so that may be true.

If I used SDS, I would never have to deal with that issue...its all within 1000 feet difference around here...unless I decide to drive up a mountain...but then I can stop and start I suppose.

Sounds like a PITA....put a big red sign on the rearview mirror to remind you to do that once in a while...dang.

Rich

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 21 2011, 02:28 PM

First of all Betsy is doing great. She ran the Chicago marathon 2 weeks ago and we did the 3 day Walk for the Cure (60 miles in 3 days). She tougher than me.

Rob, I had the same model but, it's the version of the firmware I think you need to look at. When the computer boots it'll give the version #. I think mine was 16.

It would be a pain in the but to have to manually adjust the mixture. I have to believe that what I found was a bug and I assume it has been fixed in later versions.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 21 2011, 06:56 PM

Thanks Dave! Glad to hear Betsy is doing well! Mine is Version 17...

Posted by: kg6dxn Oct 21 2011, 10:45 PM

Will you stick it in the car already and drive it? Geez... OK fine, I'll drive it

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 22 2011, 12:06 AM

/

It goes to Original Customs on Sunday for the install... Talk to Mark if you want to help with that...

Posted by: wndsrfr Oct 23 2011, 07:17 PM

Hey Gang....I posted this thread to Ross Farnham at Racetech/SDS to get his comments on how the system works with altitude changes. Here's his information:

"The engine does not care what the baro is to any great degree when
starting within the normal realm of say sea level to 5000 feet MSL if
the start and ET values are set to some mean level as we recommend in
the manual. We apply no baro correction for altitude because the engine
only cares about MAP when running and this is an absolute sensor we use
so assuming the MAP values are essentially linear as we recommend, the
engine will lean automatically with altitude increase and richen when
going down. The fact that we have many hundreds of systems flying in
aircraft and UAVs to over 25,000 feet over the last 17 years shows that
the system works well over a very wide range of altitudes. Our system
does not "learn" a new map like OEM systems today or do anything
different when you turn power off and on again.

Generally the start and ET values have no effect on anything when the ET
is over about 130F as no enrichment is required above that point.

If closed loop is used in cruise conditions, the ECU automatically keeps
the AFR around 14.7 to 1 regardless of the open loop values.
With regards to merging TP and MAP, the first thing I'd say is, it is
usually inappropriate to use a hot cam and ITBs on a street engine
simply because there is no vacuum as soon as the throttle plates are
cracked open so there is no vacuum signal for the MAP sensor to measure
and send to the ECU- garbage in = garbage out. Also, even at idle, the
vacuum is so low you are only using half of the sensor resolution. We
can use TP for idle fueling only with warm cams to help stabilize it and
MAP above the closed throttle TP value but with high overlap cams, idle
vacuum actually increases at slightly high rpms and this inverts the
logical fueling that "normally cammed" engines have and need. We see
many people disregard our advice on this and end up with poor
driveability. You don't see OEMs use ITBs and high overlap fixed cams
(usually VVT with mild cam timing down low). They also use MAF which is
not affected by idle vacuum values. 3D systems would have an advantage
here over a 2D system but MAF is is much better idea than MAP when using
hot cams and ITBs and I believe any programmable system able to use MAF
will be superior in this application. MAF is messy though with ITBs as
the ITB inlets need to be merged into an airtight airbox with MAF sensor
attached to the front.

You can switch SDS to TP but then you have no altitude compensation and
TP setups are usually harder to tune because people don't grasp the
concepts well.
Well executed plenum style manifolds and single throttle bodies
generally work much better on street engines. ITBs have their place on
race engine where revs are high, throttles are generally half to wide
open and low end cruise and driveability are not very important factors.
The ECUs simply respond to their programming- they don't know any
better if it is good or bad for the most part although we have an auto
enrich function if a WB is fitted to help save the engine from really
bad programming."

So, my understanding is: If you're on MAP sensing, it compensates automatically--they use these systems on aircraft for heavens sake! If you're on TP sensing but in "Closed Loop" mode, the system will strive for 14.7:1 AFR regardless of altitude, which covers any cruising type of street driving. If you're racing at an altitude markedly different from where you developed the fueling values, you'll need to lean or enrich your whole table--which really only takes 5 minutes once you've done the homework. My 2316 on SDS with TP sensing with Jake's 9560 cam works wonderfully for me in street driving and DE's at VIR & Summit Point--elevation changes less than 1500 feet total.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 23 2011, 09:27 PM

Mine has closed loop O2 sensing. Not so sure though about Ross saying that people 'disregard their advice'. I told him I was running ITB's when I ordered and he offered no such advice. He just took my order.
Mark seems pretty sure everything will be fine. At any rate. I did 600 miles of driving between Friday evening and just now, delivering a car - a hydraulic lift and other such driving including an autocross. I am tired. It's in the capable Original Customs hands now...

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 31 2011, 07:25 AM

Well let the fun begin! Dwight Mitchell Motor out (Jim, get a car ready ) Now for the new motor...

Oh hell! It was upright on my camera screen. I will fix this later. Gotta go to work. Fixed!


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Posted by: FourBlades Oct 31 2011, 08:19 AM

That is great, Rob.

You are almost there.

John

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 31 2011, 01:49 PM

Hey Rob, pm me your address. Your in Reno now right?

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 31 2011, 04:09 PM

SDS has always been against ITBs on their systems.. However NONE of the folks at SDS have built or tuned a TIV engine. I have north of 60 under my belt using their system to include the 2.8 liter, 220HP MassIVe engine that I drove to the shop today with temps in the low 30s as it resides in my Double Cab with an SDS based EFI system. That engine is tuned by TP because it has no MAP signal.
I have ALWAYS found the TIV engine to tune EASIER with ITBs than a common plenum WHEN THE MAP sensing was set up optimally.

In fact both times that I have had SDS tuning issues was when I used a common plenum. I tuned my engine in the double cab with 30 minutes on my chassis dyno and two trips to/from my house @ 45 miles each. I haven't touched it in 3,000 miles and I just started daily driving in a few months ago.

220HP and 28 MPG in a heavy assed truck with a lead foot driver- I must have done something right.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 31 2011, 09:45 PM

Oh cool! The admin fairy fixed my sideways picture! Don't you just love them admin fairies?

I'm not too worried about tuning... I mean, for one thing, SDS seems to be referring to ITB and IR system as radical racing setups. This one isn't.

I think Mark and I are going to use a real world dyno first. The Mayacamas mountain range via the Oakville Grade from Sonoma to Napa and back should do the trick.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 31 2011, 09:58 PM

This is pretty cool! We decided the best place to put the ECU and the controller for the O2 sensor was under the passenger seat. Kind of ala 911 Carrera with the DME relay under the drivers seat. We did this for a couple reasons. 1: the SDS ECU is a hideous gold anodized finish. It's just wrong and it reminds me of why we need to attack Canada some day... Better yet, we will send them decorators. 2: the ECU needs a cool dry place to live. At least in my 914, under the passenger seat is a nice cool dry place... 3: Did I mention it is ugly?

So Mark decides that it would be best to have a weather proof plug on the firewall that the engine room harness plugs in to. This allows me to unplug the motor and drop it without disconnecting all of the EFI. Pretty neat Original Custom idea huh?

Damn! another sideways pic! Where is that admin fairy?
Ta-Da!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 31 2011, 10:02 PM

Since this engine will be crank fired, we will be using a coil pack to distribute spark. Mark decided that the best place for this would be just aft of the relay board in the engine room. I might try and talk him into fabricating something to brace that free corner of the coil pack though... I will probably get another demeaning look but hey!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 31 2011, 10:05 PM

Will do Rick! Still trying to get that graduate thesis book back to me?

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 31 2011, 10:09 PM

Thanks John! We are going to get it tuned and autocross it one last time for the year then it will spend some more time with Mark at Original Customs getting flares welded on. With more power comes the need for more tire!

Posted by: McMark Nov 1 2011, 06:42 PM

Getting closer...

We are using AN lines from the engine up to the remote oil filter. We're going with AN-6 lines (just kidding Jake!). Actually it's AN-8. I couldn't find the AN-8 fittings to mate up with Rob's Mocal filter console, so I just bought some weld on fittings and pulled out the ol' TIG welder. Done!



The next issue was that the full flow oil pump cover outlet port is too close to the engine mount brackets. I've tried all sorts of things to get it to work, but always had problems getting the fittings tight. I decided to stop trying to make a poor layout work and modified the cover as you can see. This effectively moves the fitting out another 1/2" and then everything clears fine. There's plenty of room behind the fan housing, I could have gone another 1/2" easily, but this works.





The vacuum signal is running through a pretty unique setup (AFAIK). Rob and I wanted to use a stock AAR to provide a nice warm up, fast idle. So we are running this common plenum for the vacuum. The front four ports go to each intake runner, below the throttle plate. The smaller port on the left goes to the MAP sensor, and the tube on the right goes to the AAR. This lets the plenum serve double duty by combining the vacuum signal for the MAP and giving even distribution of the AAR airflow. It seemed to work just dandy on the stand, and we'll see how it work during tuning. The ITBs have smaller vacuum ports available if we decide that this setup isn't working and need to switch things up.



And finally, a shot of the oil filter mount, with oil lines attached, and you can see the wiring harness poking through just above the filter. It's going to be a little tight in there, but there should be just enough room. At the next filter change we'll swap to a longer 914/6 filter so that it will be easier to grab onto for filter changes.



Tomorrow, a couple more mods in the engine bay, and if everything goes well, we'll get the 2432 lifted into place.

Posted by: McMark Nov 1 2011, 06:50 PM

Oh, and I hate the red/blue fittings. But it's all I can get locally, and we don't have time to mail order everything.

Posted by: rtalich Nov 1 2011, 08:05 PM

What is it with you two and your dislike of colors? Between you not liking the red/blue and Rob not liking the gold SDS case. If it were up to you guys everything would probably be boring silver or grey huh. Another awesome byproduct of the DTM is that it creates a ton of space in the oil pump area. Also, the sensor for the SDS is easily accessible.

Posted by: McMark Nov 1 2011, 08:19 PM

I don't hate color, there just needs to be an overall theme. Gold, red, blue, gray, black, silver, aaaaaaaaah!

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Nov 1 2011, 10:50 PM

Yep. Those fittings are hideous. How can you live with that. Red and blue. What where you thinking.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 1 2011, 11:16 PM

Wow! Looks like if I want to have any part of this I had better get down to Sonoma! Seriously, I have an occasional good idea but Mark has amazing vision! I see a great future for Original Customs...

Installation is everything. You can ruin a perfectly good engine in short order without a good installation. As you can see this was well thought out. We want this to look as if VW/Porsche engineered it.

Nice progress Mark!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 1 2011, 11:30 PM

I actually like color but this engine is all business and the less it calls attention to itself the better. I wasn't really looking for cute. Just really well engineered function...

Posted by: '73-914kid Nov 1 2011, 11:57 PM

Most gun stores sell Anodizing remover if you really really want to get rid of the blue and red anodizing.. It'll take it down to bare aluminum really quickly if it's something that makes that big of a difference to the look you're trying to achieve.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 08:48 AM

The color thing doesn't bother me for things you can't see. That's why the ECU is under the seat. The oil fittings are under the battery tray and under the engine. Not a problem.

Posted by: DNHunt Nov 2 2011, 09:25 AM

That looks good you guys. Putting the coil far away from the ECU and sensor wiring is never a bad idea. One thing I liked about SDS was it never seemed to have problems with electrical noise so it may not have been an issue anyway.

One thing you guys may have to do is meter the air to the MAP sensor. I ended up with a wire feed copper welding tip in the line after the distribution block. Also, you may need to meter the airflow from the AAR. No big deal, just part of the tuning.

Dave

Posted by: rwilner Nov 2 2011, 10:53 AM

Rob
Do you have plans to dyno this beast? I would love to see what you're making at the rear wheels after all is said and done (and welded and bolted and fitted and machined and and and and....).

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 2 2011, 11:13 AM

Easy Off oven cleaner will pull the color from the anodizing.

Posted by: McMark Nov 2 2011, 11:52 AM

I've been thinking about all this color stuff. It's not that I'm against color, in any way - I just want a theme. Robs car is silver with a black interior. So with all the tin powdercoated black, it's already a monochrome car. Using black fuel hose and fittings lets the ITBs stand out against the engine and the throttle bodies become the visual focus. If the fuel lines were braided steel with blue/red fittings, they would be a huge visual presence and would steal focus from the ITBs.

I would really be happy if I could find a supplier of a whole rainbow of colors for fittings and hose. Then you could really build a whole color themed car.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 2 2011, 12:26 PM

monochrome would be cool...black and silver on everything.

Didnt you get a sandblasting cabinet over there????



Rich

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 04:21 PM

I don't care about color. The only purpose I can imagine is to differentiate what the line carries. There aren't that many lines and they should be obvious. I do like silicone for vacuum as it seems to last longer without cracking.

Again my main goal is to make this thing less of a color and more of a blur

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 04:26 PM

I do plan on visiting a dyno but like Jake says, he tuned his in two trips from house to home and home to house. Mark and I will take a drive and he can play with the tuning while I give him some load variety to work with. It should be fine for the one event on the 19th of November and then it gets flares at Original Customs over the winter.

We will worry about tuning some more next spring with new RSR finish wheels and stickies...

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 04:57 PM

The weatherproof connection that makes it all work...


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Posted by: McMark Nov 2 2011, 04:57 PM

Picture thief.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 05:01 PM

Shut up Mark. I'll pull your ponytail! This page needed a picture to give it more... um, color.

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 2 2011, 07:41 PM

Posted by: McMark Nov 2 2011, 08:20 PM

Okay enough BS.

Started by removing the rusted out seal channel and welding in a new one from Restoration-Design.



Fabricated a MAP sensor mount.



Fabricated an AAR mount.



Engine goes in tomorrow!

Posted by: r_towle Nov 2 2011, 08:25 PM

Gonna make a stand for the top of that unsupported coil pack ?

Posted by: McMark Nov 2 2011, 08:28 PM

If Rob wants me to, I will. I don't see the need. Three points make a plane and there is very little mass outside of the triangle formed by the mounting points to vibrate. The thing is rock solid right now.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 09:23 PM

Visually it begs for something but structurally I don't think it is needed. Quit looking at it Rich

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 2 2011, 09:30 PM

Nice Mark! Glad I left you alone so you could work on that picky customers car today. I guess I need to shake the trees at Summit Racing to see what happened to my VDO gauge adapter ring so the A:F Ratio gauge can go in the center console. I also should have brought you the new engine rubber gasket I got from Mark Whitesell and the Diamond Silver Metallic Paint...

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 3 2011, 12:11 PM

Well that was just weird! I called Summit and said I ordered a VDO adapter ring on the 10th of October and didn't have it yet. He said, "hmm... let me see. It left Ohio on the 28th. Let me run the tracking. Ah yes. it will arrive today." I said wait!, I didn't even tell you who I am. He said, "we are like the FBI here". Then he confessed that they had caller ID that links up to order status on their computers! So that's out of the way, the adapter ring will come to Sonoma with me on Sunday Mark!

Posted by: McMark Nov 3 2011, 01:28 PM

It's in.

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 3 2011, 01:57 PM

That's it? No Pitchers?

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 3 2011, 03:27 PM

Ahhhhhhh! I'm on my iPhone in a restaurant and I can't open Mark or Andy's posts!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 3 2011, 03:47 PM

Ok... I'm home. I only ran three people off the road trying to get here quickly.

Did you fire it up yet?

Posted by: McMark Nov 3 2011, 05:13 PM

Werkin'!

Should be ready to fire up Sunday afternoon. Still a lot of little crap to finish up. 80/20 rule...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 3 2011, 05:55 PM

Nice!

The gauge ring did show up so the A:F ratio gauge can go in the center console... It occurs to me that I should have taken the Fasten Seatbelt lens with me to have it re-engraved with Check Engine. Lots of little details. I am sure still big details too!

This is huge progress though...

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 3 2011, 06:01 PM

My, my...that looks cool!!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 3 2011, 06:09 PM

Thanks Pete! Lots of thinking went into it. I still remember our conversation at that drive-in in Napa from a few years back. For certain, SDS will not sample anywhere near as often as a factory fuel injection system but I kept the goal of having it more 'driveable' than carbs central in this project. Mark is great to work with. If you're willing to spend the money he has great ideas and can expand your own vision into a working reality.

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Nov 3 2011, 09:28 PM

Ah Crap! Damn it Rob and Mark, with all this talk about color & fittings with the pictures mixed in, now I'm going to have to give Mark a lot of money to build my motor. Your motor is really beautiful Rob!!!! Mark, We will have to talk soon.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 3 2011, 09:30 PM

I know Drew! He sucks doesn't he

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Nov 3 2011, 09:47 PM

Posted by: jsconst Nov 3 2011, 10:43 PM

That's looking awesome, might drive out Sunday and hear it run. Then I can visit my motor while I'm there. Great work Mark, makes me glad my motors in your shop

Jeff

Posted by: BigDBass Nov 4 2011, 08:19 AM

Looks great!

Hey Rob, I'll trade you a handle-less 914 World beer mug style pencil holder for a spin in your car next time I'm in California. Although I'm averaging 1 trip from IL to CA every 36 years.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 4 2011, 08:25 AM

You got it Dan! Although, if you're going to take that long, I'm hoping Carrera GT's depreciate enough that I can put one in the garage... We can take a ride in that.


What? It could happen!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 4 2011, 08:40 AM

We will be having a few more posts about tuning and then the topic will take a twist to plastic surgery for the car... She's getting big hips! Gonna kinda look like this one!


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Posted by: Randal Nov 4 2011, 10:16 AM

Nice clean work Mark. Sure is nice to see everything in it's proper place, makes a huge difference.

The biggest mistake I made when removing my engine, after Paul S had done such a great job putting it in, was to remove one side of the TB's. If you do that you have to re-synchronized them once you get the motor back in and the TB's reattached. Pretty tedious job actually.

Posted by: McMark Nov 4 2011, 10:19 AM

Thanks Randal (and everyone else). I'm happy with how it's turning out, and can't wait to finish up all the little bits to get cleaned up.

That's one of the glorious things about the bell-crank linkage. Takes about 10 minutes to get a perfect sync. :drool:

Posted by: Randal Nov 4 2011, 04:18 PM

Wasn't around when we put my engine together. So drool it is.

Off and on it took about two hours to do mine.

Posted by: McMark Nov 7 2011, 03:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Riud_GI-0

Posted by: McMark Nov 7 2011, 03:54 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI_OyO5KIMc

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 7 2011, 04:03 PM

Just like a proud papa!

Posted by: BigDBass Nov 7 2011, 04:14 PM

Posted by: jmill Nov 7 2011, 06:02 PM

Very nice. Revs smooth and has a bunch of pep. Great work. Now we need an in car cam of you opening that thing up

Posted by: jcd914 Nov 7 2011, 07:22 PM

What you wait to start it until right after I left?

Sounds good, can't wait to see it live.

Jim

Posted by: McMark Nov 7 2011, 08:31 PM

Well we made some good progress tuning today. If we hadn't gotten sidetracked a couple times we could have gotten farther, but we worked out some 'bugs' and got a pretty nice tune on our last run.

Here is a video from earlier in the day where we encountered what everyone said we would see. Serious oscillation in the MAP sensor readings. After this run we installed a welding wire tip in the line and things got really nice. I expected to have to do this (it's been mentioned by most people who've done EFI Type IVs) but I wanted to see the effects before jumping ahead. I like to see a problem before I fix it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYRpM2lKYck

Posted by: rwilner Nov 7 2011, 08:36 PM

Mark
Do you expect I'll have to do the same on my stock EFI conversion? Do you have a pic of this?

Posted by: jsconst Nov 7 2011, 11:56 PM

Sounds great Rob, excellent job Mark. Was hoping to make it over to see the start up, but my son came by Saturday and was racing at prairie city on Sunday, so ended up going and watching him race.

Good luck with the new motor on the 19th
Jeff

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 8 2011, 12:05 AM

That engine sounds like a torque monster! Clear clean pull! Nice!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 8 2011, 12:23 AM

Just home after 155 mile trip from Mark's shop... Still really pretty charged up about this!

A couple of notes. The guys who have been suggesting dyno tuning have a very good point. For the first tuning run on the road we went out to a loop just in to Napa County (Mark is in Sonoma County) and did several laps of the loop. I didn't think we were going that fast but the exhaust is a bit loud as you can hear in the video. We decided to head back to the shop apparently just in time. As I turned the corner by Mark's shop a CHP cruiser was turning to head out to that 'loop'

That first run with MAP tuning was probably an exercise in pure frustration for Mark as it was lean or rich - lean or rich... Even though it seemed to run fine, the wide band O2 gauge was pretty lean on tip in and rich in a lot of other places.

The last run of the day, after using Dave Hunt's suggestion and putting a welding tip in line between the common plenum and the MAP was VERY NICE and we are pretty encouraged that this will be a good starting point for tuning with MAP.

Thanks to Mark for a great couple of days!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 8 2011, 12:37 AM

I'm not Mark of course, but if I recall your thread correctly you will still be using the stock plenum and throttle body? If so, I wouldn't think you would have huge vacuum fluctuations. I wonder though how much vacuum you'll be making. The problems with using MAP if I understand it come from the Individual Runner manifolds and the multiple throttle plates opening at the same time while the cam is opening and closing valves at different times for each of the individual throttle plates. The vacuum at tip-in is all over the place. Again, if I recall correctly you will have only one throttle plate and a common plenum.
You are also using a system Mark has come up with. I am still getting a grasp on the SDS but it seems I can run MAP or TPS but not a blend of each. I think your system probably runs a blend.
Mark is a good sport. I don't think he is SDS's biggest fan. I am having my doubts too though. I would love to run a blend of TPS, MAP, and closed loop. I guess if it could do that they would call is CDS instead for Complex Digital Systems.

Posted by: McMark Nov 8 2011, 09:46 AM

Rich, you probably won't have to. Rob's got it right. With individual throttle bodies, Rob has what equates to a 160mm/6.25" throttle body. With four throttle plates, he's got a huge change in air flow by even the smallest throttle movement. Couple that with a cam that's built for power and not vacuum signal and you've got a recipe for a MAP signal that is pulsing like crazy.

You've got a ~45mm/1.75" throttle body and a cam that's designed to have decent performance while giving great vacuum signal to the FI (so the normal people who buy those 914s new actually enjoy them). That smaller throttle body means less air flow at WOT, but also means great low speed modulation. Think how much more air is flowing a 5 degrees of opening in 160mm vs 45mm, and you'll see why the smaller throttle body makes great sense for a 'street engine' where you're throttle position spends more time <50% of throttle opening.

For reference, this is what a MIG welding tip looks like. It's simply an obstruction with a small hole in to modulate changes in vacuum, and anything could be used (aluminum rod with a drilled hole, a carb jet, a drilled plastic BB, etc). In a way, it introduces a 'lag' or slowdown of changes in vacuum, so you get a sort of averaging effect. Much better than having the MAP sensor report every peak and valley in the signal, and having the FI trying to keep up with that.

Posted by: McMark Nov 8 2011, 09:56 AM

Here's an out-of-order update. The last part of the custom wiring harness was building our own relay board harness which would be compatible with the new coil location. That yellow wire needs some help, but I didn't have large gauge yellow wire here at the shop, so we made due for now.


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Posted by: DNHunt Nov 8 2011, 10:13 AM

I suggested this but it was Jake's idea in the first place.

Dave

Posted by: jmill Nov 8 2011, 10:16 AM

Love this thread. Great progress and in car cam. If it were me I'd be wearing an Enzyte smile for weeks.




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Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 8 2011, 10:42 AM

We were just citing our source. Thanks for citing yours. That welding tip and the integration of the stock AAR were very appreciated and I want you to know your input has been very valuable. Thanks Dave...

Posted by: rwilner Nov 8 2011, 12:16 PM

Interesting. Other ways to do this:

1) Place a capacitor (or a proper RC filter in low-pass filter configuration) on the output of the MAP signal to the ECU. If you did build an RC filter, you could use a potentiometer for the "r" and tune it till you got it where you like it.

2) MegaSquirt / MicroSquirt has a configurable "averaging / lag" factor on all analog inputs. This parameter will average the number of digital samples of the analog signal you specify, and output this average to the controller. It will repeat this averaging function every fixed cycle, so you can tell it to send the average of every 5 or 50 samples. The effect is exactly the same as the RC filter or welding tip trick -- it filters out the high frequency stuff. Not sure if SDS has this also, might be something else to try.

Posted by: Randal Nov 8 2011, 01:34 PM

Oh forgot something that we went through after installing the motor (post dyno) in 222.

The brand new stock clutch and pressure plate assembly didn't last the first five minutes. Actually it was toast before the end of the driveway at Paul's shop.

End up going with a Kennedy PP that works with up to 300 lbs of torque, or close to it, and a 4 (or 5) disk clutch plate. No further issues after that change.

Oh, forget about stock CV's as well, but think that has already been discussed.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 8 2011, 02:02 PM

Randall, we will see about the clutch and pressure plate. It didn't have a single complaint during our tuning runs. At any rate, the next tuning challenge will be to have it ready to autocross on the 19th at Infinion. I trust you'll be there?

The really fun part is just starting! The torque is amazing... Mark drove my car last evening just about sundown and I followed in my Tahoe. At first he was babying it but then the temptation must have overwhelmed him and he was





GONE!!!

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 8 2011, 10:56 PM

Sounds like it's getting there.. I believe that I hear some part throttle oscillation thats due to the linkage. I guarantee that at part throttle around 45-60% the throttle bodies are out of synch.. If this happens you can't tune via MAP worth a damn.

I have driven 100K miles with SDS and had zero issues in my 912E, what it lacks in resolution it makes up for with simplicity. I have the system in the 2.8 liter double cab and love it after its dialed in.

Merging TPS/MAP and closed loop requires more complex systems with more complex tuning and adaptation. I have this in my 912E now and just received another system from Electromotive for the dyno cell...

Posted by: MDG Nov 9 2011, 08:34 AM

Fantastic, Rob! And great to see the vids. I don't think I'd be able to sleep now that it's this close.

Mark though, eh? Typical young 'un. Here you are tuning your car and he's riding around texting his friends.








Seriously though, congratulations on this to both of you.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 10 2011, 12:19 AM

That's funny... That is exactly what I thought of as I watched him banging away at those keys. It's like he is texting!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 10 2011, 05:02 PM

One of the things I love about the Original Customs concept is the seamless integration of the classic with some of the more modern things newer cars have. In this case, our 914's are the classic and programmable fuel injection is the newer thing... Mark makes things that are new, look like they might have belonged back when the cars were made.

The latest Original Customs integration involves the "Check Engine" light feature of the SDS ECU. Mark's idea was to take the lens from the "Fasten Seatbelt" light found in the dashboard of the '75 and '76 914's and make it into a "Check Engine" light. Good idea right? But, how to execute this?

The lens itself comes out by simply gripping it with your fingernails and pulling. We then took 600 grit Wet/Dry paper and with the paper wet, we gently rubbed off the "Fasten Seatbelt" lettering. This paper is fine enough that it actually gave the lens a matte finish that was very acceptable for our finished product. Next, we had to get the "Check Engine" lettering onto the lens. A couple of ideas were floated including making a tiny vinyl "Check Engine" and putting it in place or having it engraved. We liked the latter idea and I went in search of an engraving shop that could do the deed. One trip to a jeweler and I had a good lead. I brought the lens down to the shop and they were more than a little excited to be involved with this little project. You see, I live in Reno now and this is the home of Hot August Nights. They get a lot of car projects at the shops about town. It only took two days before the shop called and said "it worked, come and get it." It was beautiful but we aren't done yet! A trip to AutoZone for some white touch-up paint and then home to fill the engraved letters with white paint. Finally, another pass over the 600 grit Wet/Dry and we have our "Check Engine" light lens. Now, all Mark has to do is wire the SDS ECU to the back of the old "Fasten Seatbelt" fixture in the dash and you have another fantastic Original Customs integration of the old with the new...

Pretty cool if you ask me!


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Posted by: McMark Nov 10 2011, 05:37 PM

That looks so f-in rad!

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 10 2011, 05:45 PM

Posted by: Dr Evil Nov 10 2011, 06:35 PM

McMark, you are one cool dude.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 10 2011, 07:05 PM

Mark has a lot of cool ideas. I love walking around his shop and picking things up and going 'what's this?' and having him go 'oh, that's fiberglass engine tin.' SAY WHAT!!! I trolled eBay for months to get 2 liter engine tin and this dude just makes it!

Bottom line, ask Mark first. That's what I do now...

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 10 2011, 07:53 PM

Very nice touch!

Posted by: Dr Evil Nov 10 2011, 08:23 PM

I keep trying to get Mark and Scotty together. Then I would know where I want to live

Posted by: McMark Nov 10 2011, 08:26 PM

Scotty should move out here. I could use the help and the awesome talent.

Posted by: Dr Evil Nov 10 2011, 08:37 PM

I know, Mark. You two would be famous and he would love Sonoma. We need to get him out there for a visit

Posted by: jmill Nov 10 2011, 09:14 PM

Nice light. If you spray it with clear it'll look shiney again. You just have to make sure the clear coat likes the white paint.

Posted by: Randal Nov 10 2011, 09:55 PM

EVen some old ideas:

Posted by: McMark Nov 10 2011, 10:22 PM

I still LOVE that rear end.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Nov 11 2011, 12:34 PM

Hey McMark - what' that thing in your avatar pic??

Posted by: rtalich Nov 11 2011, 06:44 PM

Where can I buy one of these?


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Posted by: McMark Nov 11 2011, 06:52 PM

We've got a spare one that's a smaller ID. Pm me and I'll get you the details.

Posted by: Randal Nov 14 2011, 12:23 PM

OK OK so how did that monster run up at the Sacramento event at Infineon? Can't wait to hear the story.

Imagine you have no rear tires left with that big torque motor.

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 14 2011, 12:26 PM

The AX at Infineon is next weekend. Saturday the 19th ...

Posted by: rtalich Nov 14 2011, 04:03 PM

PM sent... did you get it?

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 14 2011, 11:14 PM

Randal's 222 is so fast he time travels!!! Bring that beast up Randal!

Posted by: McMark Nov 14 2011, 11:16 PM

Yeah come AX Randal!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 14 2011, 11:17 PM

I think we should take the damned place over with 914's!

Posted by: jcd914 Nov 14 2011, 11:19 PM

Do they have room for that many jack stands?

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 14 2011, 11:25 PM

Oh SNAP!!! It's always the quiet ones you don't expect it from!

Posted by: Randal Nov 15 2011, 11:53 AM

That would be fun for sure.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 17 2011, 08:32 PM

Well that was more than a little satisfying.

I went down to the OC today. Mark had done some tuning and described it as 90%. So, I reached in the open driver side window and pulled up on the E-brake and put it in neutral (with EFI you should be able to just turn the key from outside to start it right?) and gave the key a turn. She started right up and idled like a champ within a minute. (The AAR isn't closing but we will loosen that up with some penetrating oil later and see if we can work that problem out).
I let her warm up for a few minutes and then got in to go off on a drive with my new 2432 motor all on my own. All the previous drives had been with McMark riding shotgun with the tuning interface. A slow crawl through Sonoma Square with some pretty good traffic and she had perfect manners but for being a bit louder than polite folk might appreciate. I came upon a couple guys trying to cross the road in the middle of the block and I stopped to let them cross, I heard one of them say "wow! that is so clean" as I passed... Car guys I guess, they were getting into a 370Z. Out toward the Valley of the Moon I was able to jump on her a little. OMG!!! This car breaks tires loose. Not just any tire either. R Rated Victoracers! For the first time with my 914 I can throttle steer. If I want to rotate her a little in a turn, just goose the throttle and she dances her rear toward the outside of the turn.
I got back to the OC and gave my tuning complaints to Mark and he did a little WOT tuning. I'd say, 92% now.
Saturday is the big debut... Sacramento Valley Region's Infinion Autocross... We will have video so stay tuned.
By the way, Mark took a picture of the CHECK ENGINE light installed a lit up... Maybe he will post that later...

Posted by: McMark Nov 17 2011, 08:47 PM

Ask and ye shall recieve.

Yeah, Rob went to get a full tank of gas and I started to get worried when he wasn't back 20 min later. After 30 min, he comes rolling back into the shop with a big grin on his face.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 17 2011, 10:00 PM

Thanks Mark! I hope the only time I see that lit is when I turn the key on before I start the engine!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 19 2011, 08:01 PM

What a day! 36 runs between McMark and me. If the rings aren't seated they aren't going to be...
Mark has the video. This is a MUCH different car with this engine. Still light and nimble with the 4 cylinder but easy to go too fast into corners. I spent a lot of the day a bit sideways with all that power...
Mark and I were 1 and 2 for fastest 914 at the event. Probably pretty close to fastest Porsche...

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 19 2011, 08:16 PM

I can hardly wait for the video!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 19 2011, 09:01 PM

You'll have to wait until at least tomorrow Rick. Mark copied the SD card to his work computer and then headed back to Alison and home. I don't blame him, today is normally a day he pretty religiously spends with her. Tomorrow they both return to work.
I am in Sacramento and have no editing software on this computer. I will be here until at least Monday before returning to Reno.

It was good to see Darryl (Mach Schnell) with his real 914-6 at the event. I was surprised that both Mark and I were able to hold him off considering his two extra cylinders and the fact that he is a pretty darned good driver. Mark got him by a second and I got him by two.

Probably good that I will be in Sacramento and then Reno because Mark plans on cutting my car up on Sunday. It will be getting flares over the next week or so... Probably good because she is going to need way more tire now!!! Still, I don't think I could bear to watch

Posted by: JRust Nov 19 2011, 09:36 PM

Glad to hear the motor is bringing nothing but . I didn't know you were going to add flares. Very sweet Love flared silver & black 914's (No I am not a Raiders fan).

Congrats

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 19 2011, 09:51 PM

Raiders? Me either! Vikings first but quickly becoming a Packers fan!

Posted by: ottox914 Nov 19 2011, 09:52 PM

Get that darned video up!

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 19 2011, 09:59 PM

I'm jealous! Looks like a fun car that will be a great car soon...

I just hope to get mine running again before WCR.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 19 2011, 10:01 PM

There's actually 10 videos Dave. With 36 runs, we went through a whole 8mb SD card and ran the battery out of my GoPro! I am uploading from the SD card on to this laptop now but I doubt I can get it made into a YouTube video before you are off to bed in Wisconsin...

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2011, 12:06 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6thmeRVz2So

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 20 2011, 12:11 AM

Why is the CHECK ENGINE light on?

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2011, 12:15 AM

Check Engine? We have to figure that out...

Here is Mark with his helmet on... Wait, that isn't a helmet is it?


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Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 20 2011, 08:11 AM

Nice!

Posted by: DNHunt Nov 20 2011, 09:52 AM

I wonder if the check engine light is on because the coolant sensor (CHT) is out of range. The firmware may be set up to turn it on if the temp is above 210.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2011, 09:58 AM

That is a possibility. I noticed that although the A:F ratio was just slightly on the rich side of stoichiometric the temperatures were low. Oil temperature was low normal but CHT was a bit low. EGT was more 'reactive'. It only went up when I was hammering on it. Which was pretty much all the time.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 20 2011, 11:41 AM

Looks like fun... The CEL can also illuninate if you have a sensor reading thats erratic, like the AIT sensor, CHT or MAP.
The idle sounds a little high, unless you were on the accelerator while staging... All that heavy decel and engine braking forces the rings to seat.. Looks pretty quick :-)
Imagine that same engine combo, but with a tad more CR in my 356..

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2011, 04:00 PM

We left the idle high on purpose for now. Mark will be dialing that down soon. I would guess the culprit to be MAP then. This thing is prettty potent without the added CR. I was at 38.411 for my fastest time. FTD was either a Stalker or a Super 7 at around 35.XX. Those are 1200# vehicles with 1/2 the HP or more... Pretty hard to beat that kind of weight to HP ratio and race tires. I was like a proud papa with McMark. He started the day in the 45 second range and dialed it down to 39.XX in steady .5 to 1 second improvements. He also knew enough not to beat me in my own car. That would be a borrowed car foul!!!

Once again, this engine will require a learning curve. I was going so fast at the end of the fast sections that I was busier than a two-peckered owl in mating season! I would either have to slow down or polish my skills up to keep going that fast... This will be a terrific track day engine for sure! I did not think that it was possible for my car to push as polished as the set up is. But I was going so fast into turns that she would push like a pig! Toward the end of the day, I had figured out how to set myself for the corner and throttle steer around the turns. Mark was driving much smoother than I was but he was also experiencing the push. I think he even looped it once but I was the course marshal so I had to flag people on to the course and couldn't pay him too much attention. Not quite sure what to do about the push. The weight of the engine hasn't changed appreciably so the corner balance can't be too far off. It was colder (and wetter in the morning) than a witches tittie so that is a bit of it. It started to warm up in my second set of six runs but we lost the sun again in the afternoon. Mark got the better part of the warm day for his runs but he was still on the steep part of the learning curve then. He dialed it down to 1 second behind me by the end of the day with a cold track. This tells me that he will eventually beat me with practice. So of course this means he will need to find a car to autocross I can't have him beating me in my own car!

Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2011, 04:28 PM

Got one of my morning runs on YouTube now...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6Eeu9_w90


Oh, and I never looped it. I never hit a cone. But that probably means I wasn't pushing it hard enough. So yeah, it's time to get my car finished up and get some AX action. I had a blast. Best time: 39.386. I really didn't think I had any more time to gain before I headed into the third session, but turned out that I pulled a second off my previous best time.

It was a great shakedown run for Rob's car. Now we know a few little things that popped up that can be sorted out and it's got enough time on it for another oil change and valve adjustment. Plus the necessary nut-n-bolt check to make sure everything is staying tight.

Okay, enough chit-chat. I'm gonna go hack Rob's car up.

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 20 2011, 04:31 PM

No check engine light on that run.

Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2011, 04:32 PM

Yeah, I wasn't punching the throttle like Rob was.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2011, 05:21 PM

Ya'll notice the and smileys? I couldn't stand to be there for this part... When you start with a car that has only 70XXX miles and was pretty original and well preserved, it's a little hard to watch it cut up for flares... Good thing I trust McMark right?

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 20 2011, 07:14 PM

It didn't sound like you ever really hit WOT.. Did you?

Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2011, 07:15 PM

I might not have.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2011, 07:21 PM

Not enough room Jake... But with all that torque you can see me jumping around sideways through that last section of sweeper... I think Mark had the secret. He wasn't as tempted to use it all and was able to use all of the finesse built into that suspension. I normally beat people who beat me yesterday so like often happens with your engines, I slowed down. Last event, I hardly touched the brakes. Pretty much only to transfer weight. This time I'm locking them up and pushing through corners like a plow... NEED MORE TIRE!

Note: With Jake's engines, you often slow down before you go faster due to the fact that all of that HP and torque takes a while to get used to...

Posted by: jsconst Nov 21 2011, 01:12 AM

Maybe Mark had his seatbelt fastened and Rob didn't

Sounds like you guys had a great day, new motor seems to be everything you wanted. Next year will be like having a whole new car!

Glad all went well.
Jeff

Posted by: Randal Nov 21 2011, 09:56 AM

Wow, sounds like you guys had a great day. Wait till you get some race tires under that puppy. OK now is the time for Mark to start on Phase II, getting some weight off...he knows where to start!

What you'll find is that it takes about a year to begin to manage the loud pedal. Actually all the torque is pretty mesmerizing; you'll be going down a straight and just blown away by how well the car moves. You end up thinking about THAT and boom, here comes a corner and back to reality.

Anyway was thinking about the Infineon event when I started the early morning Thanksgiving Day work orders issued by the wifey. Man, so much work, but was done in time to watch the 49'er on Sunday afternoon.

Start planning on coming up to Medford for the Spring Enduro. I'm going for sure and will be saving a good pair of Canti's for the event. You can wear out a set of tires as they practice Friday and Saturday, then run Sunday, i.e. tons of seat time.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 21 2011, 10:06 AM

Randal, this car will always be a compromise. My vision for it doesn't include making it more race car... I want to street drive it, take it to the occasional concours and win, and do track days and autocross with it. I want my wife to get in and take a ride. Your car is immaculate but Yopu would never climb in for a ride...
I hope to build a purpose built 'race' car with a partner. Maybe Mark...

I agree completely though, that last sweeper that extends the full length of the lot had me hard on the hammer and trying to hold it together in that 'stupid' last section of the course at the finish... I have to get used to not using all of that power...

Posted by: Randal Nov 21 2011, 10:12 AM

I agree with you Rob.

Having a nice car and keeping it that way is a great way to go. Getting to drive on the street is a joy, which you can't do with a race car.

And when you want to AutoX or track the car just throw on a set of 205 Hoosiers and you'll be blow away how well it handles. In fact I think the Hoosiers got up to operating temperature faster than anything else I've used. And when you get adhesive grip it's something.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Nov 21 2011, 10:14 AM

Looks like fun.

Congratulations guys.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 21 2011, 01:00 PM

Does the engine feel 40hp stronger than the old one??

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 21 2011, 01:21 PM

Wow, that course was CLOSE to those pit cars.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 21 2011, 08:48 PM

We were at Infinion close to some school cars at the West end of the Paddock...

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 21 2011, 08:50 PM

Much stronger. This one breaks the tires loose... sliding around corners with R-rated rubber...

Posted by: RobW Nov 22 2011, 07:23 AM

Drat you guys for having so much fun....

Cool motor. Seems to wind up fast like no other /4 I've seen.

What would a motor like that do to a fully caged racer? I guess Randal could tell us.

Posted by: Randal Nov 22 2011, 08:38 AM

The other guy to ask is Bill Charron who will be 60lbs lighter than 222 next year. His motor is big on torque as well.

Posted by: RobW Nov 22 2011, 09:18 AM

Or you could tell us....

Posted by: Randal Nov 22 2011, 10:20 AM

OK OK...

On a scale of 1 to 10, a stripped down 914 with a 4 cylinder torque motor is anyone's Easy 9. It's becomes a 10 when the driver can manage to put together a great run and capture a podium spot for the day.

My car, now being about 90%+ sorted, is very neutral. It doesn't misbehave at all. On the other hand the driver can easily lose time on a course by over cooking corners, performing brain fade things like hitting the loud pedal on 180's before the car is fully rotated and so on and so on..... In fact the real challenge is driving 10 tenths and doing it mistake free. This latter challenge is very difficult to do.

Also I'm still exploring the limits of the car and will start this all over again next year when I go with a different tire setup. Running on some new sticky tires will be a whole new experience, abet expensive.

What you also find is that the faster you go the more time you have to put in to bring the last thing, or system that failed, or that isn't working correctly, up to par.

But when all systems are go and the tires get hot, say like at the Medford WCR, it becomes an attack machine. You can simply attack most corners. Hard to believe but true and just a whole bunch of fun.

Of course there will always be some corners that you have to sneak up on, i.e., like 10 at Infineon or the big (first corner) sweeper at Medford.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2011, 04:37 PM

Because the guy that designed it understands that throttle response, torque and a broad operating range are all more important than peak horsepower.

That combo took about 8 years to get this the stage it is in Rob's 914... Only 4 of them exist and one of them is mine, going into my 356 Outlaw.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 22 2011, 07:29 PM

Things happen fast in autocrossing. With this engine, things happened so fast it overcame 30 years of autocrossing experience! I was pretty busy at the 'slow down' section at the end of the course.

I kept thinking "I'd love to have video from outside the car" as I was driving the back straight. I could feel the car sliding and digging for traction.

I had no idea there were four of these engines running around. It winds up very quickly and scoots right along. With the flares I should have a little better tire control. The rear wheels will be 16X8.5 Fuchs and the front 16X7 Fuchs.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2011, 08:03 PM

Yep, thats it.. About the time I was ready to make it a kit, I decided to kill the kit program.

I might use the combo for some very special turn key applications when they pop up but for now ALL we are creating are 2270 engines.. I have nothing else on the books clear through December of 2012!

Posted by: Randal Nov 22 2011, 10:30 PM

Why don't you bring one of those 4 out to California and compete against 222.

Posted by: RobW Nov 22 2011, 10:57 PM

Curse you for building such a cool engine.

Posted by: RobW Nov 22 2011, 10:58 PM

You're right. Conedodger is technically a foreigner now...

Posted by: Rand Nov 22 2011, 11:57 PM

.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 23 2011, 01:05 AM

Technically? I am pretty sure I am not going to even bother filing California State Income Tax Forms next year...

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 23 2011, 01:08 AM

You should have been there Randal. 222 would have definitely given the Stalker and the Bugeye a run for their money!

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 23 2011, 06:19 AM

Its not that important to me... I'd rather hang out over at the farm...
We are done with competition.. Turned down two race engine builds this week alone..

Posted by: RobW Nov 23 2011, 07:08 AM

Wow. Is CA really that bad? Torch the place a few weeks after leaving. Classy.

Posted by: RobW Nov 23 2011, 07:10 AM

Too bad.... its a tough economy for sure.... but we are starting to see people spending $$ because they are realizing that life is too short not to enjoy it...

Posted by: Randal Nov 23 2011, 09:42 AM

Now that would have been a bunch more fun than what I ended up doing, i.e., the Wifey's rose color glasses front yard re-do.

Posted by: mepstein Nov 23 2011, 09:45 AM

What kind of torque/hp does that combo put out?

Posted by: Randal Nov 23 2011, 09:49 AM

When I first drove my car at that Sacramento Regoin autox (Stockton) I was also so far behind the car, but smiling the whole way. Takes a bit of seat time to start to utilize all you have.

You'll find that 15's will wind up faster Rob. I know, I know you don't need it now, but soon.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 23 2011, 09:55 AM

Some higher power has been watching over us... Or perhaps that coupled to a decade worth of 18 hour work days, never giving up and doing things no one else thought about finally paid off for us.. 2010 was our best year on record, by August of 2011 we had already surpassed the numbers from last year and have gotten even more swamped than we imagined in this last part of the year.

With a turn key engine backlog for TIV engines that stretches out to December of 2012 we are as busy as we want to be. I had e chosen to keep this company smaller and focused and do exactly what I want to do, rather than being like all the other guys that have to kill themselves to pay the overhead and stay on top.

Why waste a weekend going to California to "compete" when we don't have to do so to be busier than we even want to be??
I'd much rather spend my weekend here without another human within 5 miles.




I'd much rather put meat in the freezer and see "racks" on Deer through my rifle scope as to see "fake racks" on the synthetic wonder chicks in Cali.


At one time I would have traveled cross country to prove a point, I did it many times. Today in the aircooled world I am happy as hell if something sells, but don't care if it doesn't. Thanks for supporting us over the years :-)

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 23 2011, 10:54 PM

I am on 15X7's now Randal...

Posted by: Randal Nov 24 2011, 08:33 AM

Canti's work great, but you'll have to flare the car a bit. Hey, street cars look good with flares!

Posted by: RobW Nov 24 2011, 09:54 AM

Gee Jake. That looks like a good life out there. Its not work when you love what you do.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 24 2011, 09:57 AM

The day that I leave the house and "head to work" is the day when the whole place goes up for sale.. We have a lot to be thankful for today, thats for sure.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 24 2011, 10:24 AM

It's getting flares this winter (if I have to kill myself paying for the install!) I will need advice on tires though. I currently think only in terms of street tires. With a narrow body, I can't use Hoosiers, because they're wider than most other brands. I love Victoracers. I can't believe the grip, though this engine clearly was able to overwhelm that grip. Slicks might be a possibility...

Posted by: RobW Nov 24 2011, 10:58 AM

I have an extra set of canti sslicks on 15 x 7 s you can use.

Posted by: kg6dxn Nov 24 2011, 11:23 AM

Start thinking about CV joint solutions. More HP + Wider tires = broken CV's

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 24 2011, 11:28 AM

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 24 2011, 07:31 PM

I just noticed this post Eric... Thank you very much. Coming from you, praise means a lot. Your attention to detail has always been an inspiration to me. I am sure Mark appreciates it as well...

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 24 2011, 09:02 PM

Rob, where did you guys end up with the timing?? For these short AX runs I probably have something that you could apply.

Posted by: Randal Nov 24 2011, 11:11 PM

Canti's will work great with your motor. When you are in first gear you won't get much traction, but as soon as you shift to second they are tough to blow off. So buzz them a bit, before the timing light, shift to second quickly and the torque will take over from there. Also you can get Canti's used, i.e., qualifying tires, in a pretty soft compound. That is all I've used for the last two driving seasons.

The next step up are A6's, but they are twice the dollars and require a carefully set up and cambered car.

I'd say the A15 Avon's are the next step after that, but they are bias ply, so the opposite of the A6's when it comes to camber. And they are $400 each or close to that.

Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 13 2012, 11:51 AM

Several people have asked what the 'offset' was, what she gets because I get the new motor. I had thought it would be a Cayenne and it certainly was heading that direction thanks to Eric Shea stirring her up with pics of pimped Cayennes.
It turned out to be an Audi A4 2.0T with everything. She loves it. Even put her screen name on the plates!

Help Admin! Everything is going to fall out of the center console! fixed...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 13 2012, 04:54 PM

In case you guys were thinking this project has been sitting doing nothing this winter, think again!

Mark has been busy doing that OC Thang!

You may recall we replaced the distributor with a breather bung made by Jeff Hines (sixnotfour). I had used a breather made by Chris Foley at Tangerine Racing but I wanted something a bit more OC... Mark put his big brain to work and the following series of pictures is the evolution of an Original Customs Breather Box. Contact McMark if you want something like this made up...

The drawing:


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Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 13 2012, 04:55 PM

Mark has a metal brake so he can do this kind of thing...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 13 2012, 04:56 PM

The rest is all welding, brazing, and powdercoating...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 13 2012, 04:59 PM

He used aluminum "duocel" in the bottom and foam at the top with holes all around so the crankcase pressure can vent...


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Posted by: ConeDodger Feb 13 2012, 05:01 PM

Then, he mounted it on the engine. All he has left to do in these pics is hook up a hose to the oil fill stand and it is fully functional...

You can see the Original Customs concept here... Mark designs things so they 'look' as if they might have been there in the first place. Not intending a "bling" factor. Form and function take equal standing...


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Posted by: McMark Mar 6 2012, 09:19 PM

No flares yet. But here's a teaser of what did show up.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 6 2012, 11:13 PM

Mmmmm.... Weidman's Wheels RSR finish 16X7 front and 16X8.5 rears shod with new A6's. Gonna be a sticky summer!

Posted by: JmuRiz Mar 7 2012, 11:41 AM

Cool breather setup and REALLY COOL wheels!

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2012, 03:58 PM

Oh damn...

I can't bear to look.

My car has been moved to the top of McMark's 'Current Project' section on the Original Customs Website.

This can only mean that he has begun cutting it up for the flares

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 5 2012, 06:47 PM

I can't bear to look either.....seen too many step over the edge to the slippery slope.
Flares & wide Hoosiers? Doomed, doomed I tell ya.

Posted by: McMark Apr 5 2012, 06:48 PM

Stalker...

Posted by: McMark Apr 5 2012, 06:57 PM

Hold on to your heart medication.

The flares are just screwed on for now. Ready to attack them with the welder on Sunday.

Had to fire up the engine to move the car over a little, and it's amazing how easily and smoothly the engine fires up and idles cold.


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Posted by: Porsche930dude Apr 5 2012, 07:17 PM

looks great. i hope your protecting the glass when welding and grinding at it. Speckled glass is not cool

Posted by: jmill Apr 5 2012, 07:45 PM

Beautiful rims. Wish I had the dough. Did Harvey make the 8.5's for you?

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2012, 08:01 PM

Yes! Harvey is a wizard...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2012, 09:35 PM

Sorry for stalking... Your website is bookmarked...

So I take it you didn't find any surprises under the paint on the fenders?

By the way, anyone interested in some polished Cookie Cutters in 15X7... They are full restorations that have a couple hundred miles on them. Tires go on my 240Z so 'Forgetaboutit'

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 5 2012, 10:21 PM

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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 8 2012, 10:25 AM

Well I'll be! So that is how ALL those other flare installs you've done wound up with speckled glass!

Seriously, I'm not worried. Mark has done many flare installs with very superior results...

Posted by: jsconst Apr 8 2012, 11:45 AM

Saw your tires and wheels last Sunday, they look amazing, I'm pretty sure they where still there when I left

Might see the car Tuesday if I make it out there.

Looking good Rob

Mark does great work, wait till you see what he's done for my white car.....and what he's going to do after WCR

Can't wait to see your car finished. Going to be very nice!!!!


Jeff

Posted by: MDG Apr 8 2012, 12:30 PM

The kaleidoscope effect on a sunny day is pretty cool . . . but I'm pretty sure Mark has it all under control.

Car is going to be fantastic, Rob. I have the same wheels from Harvey on my Irish Green car. The guy does A+ work.

Posted by: McMark Apr 9 2012, 05:55 PM

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 9 2012, 06:20 PM

I think that means there's sparks flying! Post pics Mark!

Posted by: jmill Apr 9 2012, 06:26 PM

I'd like to see how you finish off the bottom of the fender. I've got some ideas but would like to see what you do. That's whats left unfinished on mine

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 9 2012, 06:28 PM

Oh Hell! I can't wait! I went to the OC site and stole these! I'll do the time for stealing Mark's intellectual property! Now that's dead-sexy!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 11 2012, 06:59 PM

Today I posted something of a goal on McMark's Original Customs Facebook page. It is a picture I have been admiring for a few years. I posted that this was my goal for my car except with chrome bumpers, sans graphics and big fueling hole in the middle of the hood.


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Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 11 2012, 07:01 PM

Will the car make it to WCR 2012?

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 11 2012, 07:02 PM

Mark answered with a simple 'Well you're one step closer today'... Both right side fender flares are now on. Beautiful work Mark.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 11 2012, 07:04 PM

Yes Mike. Mark says the flares will be on by weeks end. He has done enough of these and does them so well that he can gauge pretty much how long it will take.
We plan on priming the fenders and I will run it like that all season. Then next winter, I will send it to the body shop for new paint in the original color, Diamond Silver Metallic.

Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 11 2012, 07:09 PM

Awesome!

Rob, I love your car I want to see that killer Raby/McMark engine run!!!

Did you cringe a little when Mark stripped the paint off the fenders?

Posted by: Socalandy Apr 11 2012, 07:17 PM

Sweeeeeeeeet

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 11 2012, 07:29 PM

Well, let's just say it was a good thing I was 200 miles away...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 12 2012, 10:32 PM

Mark's been at it again... This time in the left rear. I suspect he will be done by Sunday... I can't wait to see it in person!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 15 2012, 10:32 PM

So while I was off working this weekend McMark was off having fun... Finishing my flares! This is so cool! Check these out.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 15 2012, 10:33 PM

Then he ground off the welds


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 15 2012, 10:34 PM

And deleted the side marker light holes.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 17 2012, 10:32 PM

Looks like Mark had the OC in high gear today! Completed flares, all ground off, primered with fender wells undercoated... GT goodness!


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Posted by: SirAndy Apr 17 2012, 10:34 PM

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 17 2012, 10:39 PM

Now to have some WCR fun... A little warm-up this weekend at Mather Field with the PCA - SVR gang... Hopefully I will not break it because I need to get current plates in Nevada with it before coming back over for WCR!

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 17 2012, 10:55 PM

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 17 2012, 11:21 PM

An upskirt shot for you perverts out there!


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Posted by: jsconst Apr 17 2012, 11:33 PM

Looking good Rob, can't wait to see it run Sunday.


Jeff

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 18 2012, 08:12 AM

Jeff, You have to be registered or on the guest list to get in to the Mather site. Shall I put you on my guest list or are you running? Also, the gates are only open for a period of time in the morning and when they shut the place down. It is an active airport with security.

Posted by: jsconst Apr 18 2012, 08:22 AM

Didn't realize you had to register ahead, I'll do that today. Yes I want to run my new car, if it passes tech this time. It should I think all of the issues have been taken care of. I do know about being there early, went to one there last year to watch, got there too late and couldn't get in. See you there

Jeff

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 06:21 PM

The Original Customs boys are at it again today. Yesterday, they discovered that the custom built 8.5" wheels built by Weidman's Wheels in Oroville California were just a little bit wide for the reproduction steel GT flares we are installing on my car. Fortunately, the OC has a German GT that was imported sitting in the shop for rust repair. I had forgotten about Andy's car. It is a brown GT that has the original Porsche factory flares which Mark is uninstalling and reinstalling to get rid of the rust worms that have invaded the car. Talk about knowing 914 flare installation forward and backward! Anyway, what Mark discovered when he compared the two flares is that the factory flare has about half the lip as the reproduction. So, a little bit of a trim with the body saw and some grinding to clean up the cut, then a bit of primer and we have clearance. This should be good since as the car sits down into its spring it gains negative camber. What this means is that the top of the tire moves inward... Check out the before and after pics!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:11 PM

Just saw the spy photos from the OC! The car is on the ground, finished for now!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:12 PM

Some more pics!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:12 PM

This last one is so sexy I'm a little out of breath!


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Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 19 2012, 07:16 PM

Rob,

What size and make tires on the rear? They fit the rims perfect.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:20 PM

I forget the size but they are Hoosier A6's... Nice thing is I avoid shipping charges because Tire Rack is just 20 miles out of town to my East on I80...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:21 PM

I may be able to space the front wheels out a bit. Maybe not. They do have to turn and not contact the fender flare...

Posted by: McMark Apr 19 2012, 07:23 PM

Rears are 225-60-16, IIRC. I might have the aspect ratio wrong.

The front could probably use a 1/2" spacer. I have two 5mm spacers at the shop we can play with on Sat. If you want.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:26 PM

Pretty sure they are 50 or 55 aspect ratio. I definitely want to move the track out a bit if we can. Not so much that I contact inner fenders or outer fenders...

Anyone - and I mean ANYONE have any doubts who should install their fender flares on the West side of the country?

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 19 2012, 07:27 PM

I have 1" spacers in the front.

Posted by: rtalich Apr 19 2012, 07:45 PM

This *may* be in my future as well... I'll need the extra rubber back there due to the beast Mark is building :-)

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 07:52 PM

If you go back a few pages you find the video of my car after the new powerplant. Prior to this motor, the car was a frisky 'momentum' car. I barely ever used the brakes except to set the suspension for a corner and I just kept my foot in it all the time. On good R rated rubber I was barely able to control the car and I will have to relearn everything about driving it. The GT flares and big tires will help a lot. In fact, it may go back to being a 'momentum' car...
I can't wait to take it to Thunderhill for a track-day!

Posted by: sixnotfour Apr 19 2012, 09:41 PM

Rob Looks Great... finally some real pics of your car

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 09:50 PM

Thanks Jeff. Coming from you that is high praise indeed. I have always admired your cars and your work. I'm very glad you helped with the engine...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 09:51 PM

Oh, and notice there are no garbage cans Bovey...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 10:30 PM

It looks like it could use about an inch doesn't it?


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Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 19 2012, 10:35 PM

That's what I thought too... Until I put spacers on and drove it. It looked great! But... It changes the scrub radius quite a bit. The car did not handle as well and was much harder to steer. Make sure you drive it hard after you try the spacers. You will feel a dirrerence.

Posted by: Rand Apr 19 2012, 10:36 PM

You are bubbling all over yourself Rob, and for good reason - she's turning into one amazing car. I think you should drive it to WCR. Freakin' trailer queen. j/k Congrats!

Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 19 2012, 10:37 PM

BTW, I think I have a pair of 3/4" spacers if you want to try them. Good ones, not the crappy type.

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 19 2012, 10:38 PM

Here's mine. I'll pull this photo out later as not to dirty up your thread. I have 16" X8" fronts with 1" Spacers and 16" X9"s on the rear with like 1/4" spacers.

Posted by: McMark Apr 19 2012, 10:40 PM

Mike, bring them to WCR.

Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 19 2012, 10:42 PM

WIll do...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 19 2012, 11:02 PM

Wow! My fronts are 16X7 as they came from Fuch Wheels. My rears are custom built 16X8.5 wheels made with 4 16X6 Fuch wheels. Harvey says he can chop off the backs of the front wheels and widen them as well without even disturbing the finish on the front of the wheels.

You don't have to remove your pics Rick. I am proud as heck to have the Alien in the same thread as my car... You class up the joint.

But the real question is; What time will we be seeing you next week and is Sandy coming with?

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 20 2012, 07:28 AM

If you're planning to AX that thing do not put spacers on the fronts.
Your 7 inch wheels have increased the positive scrub radius by 3/4".
A 1" spacer would put it up to 1-3/4". You won't like that on tight corners.
There are limitations to the 914 suspensions.....that's one of them.

Increasing the backspacing by more than 1/2" on your front wheels is another.
Welcome to "the box".

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 22 2012, 08:00 PM

Interesting day with the "Fat Girl" at the PCA - SVR autocross. Mark and I were both pretty close to FTD on street tires, I may have gotten it in raw time but I think I caught a cone with my left rear in the slalom portion of the course. We both should have gotten 8 runs for a total of 16 on the day. Between the two of us, we got 5. Mark got 3 and I got 2... The fuel pump took a crap... It would get hot and just quit...

Yuk... Lot's of driving for 1:24+ seconds of driving

Posted by: McMark Apr 22 2012, 08:24 PM

Yeah, disappointing, but the car otherwise ran great and handled AWESOME!

New pump on the way.

Posted by: kg6dxn Apr 22 2012, 08:28 PM

I had the same problem on a Worblo (sp) style pump. Turns out the pump expands and the mounting clamps do not. CLamps would jam the pump until it cooled. I moved the clamps the the edges of the pump. problem went away

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 22 2012, 08:35 PM

I know huh? I kept having to tell myself to go faster 'cause I could and I wasn't! I bet I could have picked up another 2 seconds and gotten down to 40 or lower...

Posted by: jsconst Apr 22 2012, 08:47 PM

Ya Rob that was a bummer. First time out with the BIG tire.

Here's a picture from his first run



And the second



Don't worry you'll be ready to give em hell next time.

Jeff

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 22 2012, 08:52 PM

Oh, BTW... These FTD on Street Tire runs were done with the EFI in your basic 'limp mode'... Mark discovered before his runs that the tuning had scrambled, maybe because of an electrical problem as we also had a blown fuse. We ran the day on closed loop O2 sensor only which is basically an economy mode... Still ran the pants off of it! Great engine!!!

Posted by: McMark Apr 24 2012, 10:06 AM

We're back in business!


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Posted by: biosurfer1 Apr 24 2012, 10:25 AM

ahhh, the famous dual nippled, dual post Pepsi can. Very rare indeed!

Posted by: McMark Apr 24 2012, 10:42 AM

Don't be silly Brett. That's for the WCR beer bong.

Posted by: rwilner Apr 24 2012, 11:00 AM

You west coast guys have all the fun.

Posted by: biosurfer1 Apr 24 2012, 11:12 AM

Whatever are you talking about?? oh, by the way, the weather for WCR this year



66?!?!? That going to be freezing!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 24 2012, 02:51 PM

Might want to tell the body shop to match the paint better next time!

Amazing Job Mark! Car is looking great Rob!!

Can't wait to see it all squirted and shiney.

Posted by: Woody Apr 24 2012, 05:45 PM

Explain to me the downsides of the wheel spacers on the front because this is my exact setup and I definitely know they are there, 7" wheels with a 1" spacer. Would this cause more understeer?

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2012, 10:08 PM

Well the Sunday results are in. I was second overall, FTD on Street Tires which is a major accomplishment considering in third place just 3 tenths of a second behind my time was a 911 Turbo. Mark was just a fraction of a second back as well but somehow let a few cars squeeze into the gap between my own time and his.
I am astounded by the car's performance. Remember, we got only 5 runs between the two of us. Mark got three, I got two... The usual winner at SVR events prevailed once again. Our own Steve Neislony in the 21X car. As the eventmaster put it, it was probably the hottest day we've ever had at Mather. Steve uses slicks and when he can get them hot, he puts a lot of time between us. Sunday was no different. Almost 4 seconds up on me... Granted, had we had 8 runs like everyone else we would have whittled that down a bit but it is hard to beat slicks and even harder on a hot day.

Steve Nieslony SVR 1972 914 2.0 Blue & White AX4 38.400 2 Rob Sime SNR 1975 914 Diamond Silver AX12 42.191
3 Collin Fat SVR 2003 Turbo Midnight Blue AX5 42.410 4 Bob Peake SVR 1997 993 Ocean Blue AX10 42.522
5 Grady Carter GGR 2002 Boxster S Black AX11 42.776 6 Howard Thomas DIA 2002 Boxster Guards Red AX11 42.796
7 David Borden SVR 2002 Corvette Z06 Red FUN 42.881 8 Mark DeBernardi RR 1975 914 Diamond Silver FUN 42.925
9 Lisa Thomas SVR 1975 914 Red FUN 43.142 10 E.J. Fontaine SVR 2007 997 Red AX7 43.258
11 Susan Fontaine SVR 2007 997 Red AX7 43.308 12 Robert Smith SVR 2010 GT 3 Black FUN 43.435
13 David Schnitzer SVR 2003 911 Red FUN 43.484 14 Tosh Yumae GGR 1997 993 Black AX10 43.571
15 Logan Stonebraker
1999 911 Silver FUN 43.719 16 Tony Wong RR 2011 M3 White FUN 43.993
17 Greg Zajic BMW 2000 M Roadster Blue FUN 44.107 18 Weyland Fat SVR 2008 997 C4S Black FUN 44.340
19 Tim Howard SVR 2005 Carrera Silver AX9 44.664 20 John Kessler SVR 2001 Boxster S Silver AX10 44.847
21 Thomas Seivert
2006 Elise Orange FUN 45.222 22 Mary Borden SVR 2001 Carrera Silver FUN 45.264
23 Thomas Cowles SVR 1996 993 Article silver FUN 45.422 24 Norman Siegenthaler BMW 2011 335d White FUN 45.433
25 Don Stockett SVR 2007 C4S Cab Red FUN 45.478 26 Johnny Ho
2006 350z Black FUN 45.894
27 Matt Deter SVR 1995 993 Polar Silver FUN 45.983 28 Joseph Yau
2008 GTI Gray FUN 46.161
29 Jim Rozak SVR 1990 964 C4 Silver FUN 46.194
30 Ed Busuttil SVR 1987 Carrera Guards Red FUN 46.749
31 Darrell Mott ggr 2006 Cayman S Red AX9 46.893 32 Tim Uptegrove BMW 2011 335is Space Gray FUN 46.932
33 Craig Marshall SVR 2001 M3 Silver FUN 47.173 34 Lee Deter SVR 1995 993 Polar Silver Fun 47.184
35 JERRY Karr
2000 "Tigger" orange FUN 47.318 36 Scott Gille GGR 2006 Cayman S Red AX9 47.389
37 Paul Czopek YOS 2009 Cayman Macadamia SS-4 47.452 38 Bob Thiessen SVR 1973 911T Red AX16 47.903
39 Wilson Cheng
2009 RX8 Black FUN 48.004 40 Dustin Crosthwaite
2004 WRX Sti Silver FUN 48.191
41 Victor Chan SVR 2001 996 Black Metallic FUN 48.822 42 Jeff Stroud SVR 1974 914 White FUN 49.125
43 Callie Abbey
2001 996 Black Metallic FUN 49.409 44 Mike Mistretta SVR 2008 997 C4S Black FUN 49.570
45 D`Artagnan Stubbs
1974 914 White FUN 49.609 46 Jay Bortolotto BMW 1985 535i Blue FUN 50.059
47 Bruce Ungari SVR 1959 356 "Convt.D" Silver FUN 50.390 48 Melinda Lincoln
2002 M3 Blue FUN 51.869
49 Brady Marshall SVR 1995 325i Black FUN 52.615 50 Eric Chevreuil
1964 500 D Orange FUN 54.858


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2012, 10:09 PM

Effects your turn-in.

Posted by: RobW Apr 24 2012, 10:13 PM

Nice work Rob.

Time to trade up to a Pirate Ship....

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2012, 10:16 PM

I can't wait for the paint either but I am forcing myself to. I have missed too many events over the last few years to blown engines and such... I am going to drive the piss out of it and paint it in the winter next year...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2012, 10:17 PM

I wouldn't mind a trip around the cones in that worthy craft for sure matey!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 25 2012, 07:27 AM

How do you like the 8.5's?

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 25 2012, 08:49 AM

E,
They were a little wide for George's factory flare reproduction. The flares have a bit more of a inside lip than the factory ones. I have often heard it said that the factory flares were of a lighter gauge metal but never that the inner lip was half that of the repops. Fortunately, Mark had a car with factory flares on the project floor at the OC. So when he put the wheels on the car and discovered the 'rub' he checked the other flares on that car and modified the reproduction flares on mine.
I think Mark said there was room for 3/4" inside offset but Harvey may not be able to do that with this method.
The purely esthetic answer to your question is that I love them!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 25 2012, 04:24 PM

Really just wondered how they looked against the inside. 3/4" total or another 3/4" left to go? I would think another 3/4 would max it out.

Posted by: McMark Apr 25 2012, 06:01 PM

There is a little room on the inside. Definitely more breathing room than the outside. But you would be hard pressed to max it out unless you were building completely custom wheels and could specifically choose your offset. I did a bunch of measuring and math today based on Robs wheels and decided that if you built a 9" wheel with a 11mm offset and ran a 245 tire it should fit. But everything would have to be just-so and the sidewalls on the tire you buy would be a big concern.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 25 2012, 06:16 PM

9"x15 with 275/45 is what some of the factory GTs used to run back in the day.
However, it is next to impossible to find tires in that size anymore.

As for the offset, instead of trying to find the perfect offset, one can simply use long wheel studs and spacers to get the wheels just right.

Posted by: r_towle Apr 25 2012, 06:26 PM

Mark,

did you see a decent place to section the rear flares and add a strip?
I can go look but I bet you have thought about it a bit....

richb

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 25 2012, 06:32 PM

Check out Armando's GT website. He's got a full pictorial on how to do this ...

Posted by: r_towle Apr 25 2012, 10:29 PM

wow....never saw that...
Looks like he started in 2011....

rich

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 25 2012, 10:53 PM

Not really. The 911 8's (x15") are very close to the lip generally. Adding a spacer would simply put the tire into the fender. The 9's are even worse as the extra inch comes on the outside. If you look at the factory cars with 9's they had the fenders pulled. Knowing this going into it, you can mount the flares out a bit.

With the 8's there seems to be about an inch plus on the inside. Spacers won't do much good in helping maximizing that useable space. I tried a custom 9 that was an 8 with an inch added on the backside. My tires rubbed. That's why the 8.5's came to be which is why I was wondering how they fit.

Stock flares can be tough.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 25 2012, 11:08 PM

Eric,
I don't think Harvey came up with this by accident. These 8.5" wheels fit like a glove. Last I talked to Harvey, he said he could take my fronts and add an inch to the inside to make them 8"...
I had little time to fool with pressures at the event on Sunday so I just told Mark where to start. He must have done some reading because he told me after his first three runs that the car was pushing. I said to either add air to the rear or take air out of the front and he already had! That burger boy learns Mcquick!

Posted by: ConeDodger May 20 2012, 04:00 PM

Did a bunch of tuning today. When I got it back here to Reno after WCR and the Sacramento Valley event, it was running way lean! That's weird because Mark had it tuned pretty much perfectly when it was at Sea-level in Sacramento and Marina.
I added bunches of fuel at 3500rpm through 7250rpm and gave both the low and high rpm accelerator pump function +10 increases. My stock temperature gauge which is oil temp was sitting on the 'P' but CHT was 200 and EGT was fluctuating between 1200 and 1400 under load. These values are way better than a stock 2.0. Not necessarily EGT but CHT for sure...

We were baffled as to what could have happened to the tune... I think it may be that MAP is more sensitive to fluctuations at altitude. Everything was still plugged in and appears to be functioning. Either that or the ECU lost its mind from having the car bounced around on the trailer on the way back from WCR...


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Posted by: RobW May 20 2012, 08:44 PM

How frustrating. Sell it...

Posted by: Krieger May 20 2012, 10:24 PM

These are the kind of problems we all should have. Enjoy this beast Rob!

Posted by: DNHunt May 21 2012, 08:26 AM

I had the same problem with SDS too driving up to Tahoe. I kept adding fuel with the tuning knob. I'm not sure what gives since they use it on small planes. Maybe, pilots are used to adjusting mixture and don't mind.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 09:24 AM

We don't have the mixture knob wired in to the custom harness. Not that I want to use that as a crutch...

I don't have the tuning down the way Mark does. He looks more like he is texting his wife than tuning with his fingers dancing around on the tuning interface. I would say that is why it is at 90%. That and he could tune while I drove and I have to drive, look at the AFM and the tach, go back to the house and add to the areas where it was lean. Go out and do it again and so forth...

Rob, you can buy the engine. It is priced around the same price you are asking for the Pirate Ship

I wonder if these planes are using TP tuning?

Posted by: DNHunt May 21 2012, 10:48 AM

I agree, you really need a tuner riding along. I'd give SDS a call. I talked to them a couple of times and they were very helpful.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 11:19 AM

I will Dave. I just need to print that page from the manual where you write down all of the tuning so they have an idea of what you are doing.
I wonder if they need all the other stuff as well? O2 logs and such as well as temperatures...

BTW, I'm building an engine for the 240Z soon. I have debated a turbo or a NA 2.8 block with a 280Z intake plenum and a big throttle body. I will go with microsquirt this time.

Posted by: rwilner May 21 2012, 11:24 AM

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 11:24 AM

I just asked Yopu if she wanted to go for a ride in the 914. She got this look like "why the 914" and then said it... I said, let me rephrase that, "let's take a ride over to the Apple Store in the 914". Big smile and "Ok". Her birthday is Wednesday and she wants the new iPad... (I get her old one)

Posted by: Randal May 21 2012, 11:25 AM

Come on up and run Cascade Lakes hill climb Rob. You can take the back way through Lassen Park and make a holiday out of the trip.

Posted by: DNHunt May 21 2012, 11:27 AM

I suppose it never hurts to be prepared.

When I had that happen I was really surprised and I finally thought it was a problem with their code because I ended up taking fuel out as I came down the hill and my tune was fine on I-5 again.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 11:27 AM

When is it Randal?

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 11:34 AM

Dave,
I assume you were tuning with MAP? If so, you were experiencing the same thing as me. I just didn't see it because the car climbed and descended on the trailer... But I am at 4500' here and Mark was tuning at a bit above sea-level.
Sorry for messing with your tune Mark It was pretty much nuts-on!

Posted by: McMark May 21 2012, 12:48 PM

No problem.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 05:19 PM

I dropped by a local Porsche shop today. The owner is a PCA member and we are working on an event together. He had an interesting thought... Every once in a while, the car will backfire on start-up. When it does, it usually blows off one of the lines to the common plenum and the idle goes through the roof. He said maybe it damaged the MAP???

Dave? Mark? What do you guys thing of that? I will still be calling SDS when I get the values all written down though...


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Posted by: DNHunt May 21 2012, 05:26 PM

I'd say that is a possibility.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 05:29 PM

He mentioned installing a blow off valve! Really? Can I do that?

Posted by: rick 918-S May 21 2012, 05:29 PM

Interesting. Maybe you need a blow off valve like the 911's were running... Something to cushion the force.

Question: I know nothing about SDS but does it have an 02 sensor to read the emissions and a knock sensor? How come the system doesn't self adjust like the factory EFI cars?

I understand the need to read the engine and tune it out of the gate but then what happens?

Posted by: ConeDodger May 21 2012, 05:35 PM

I'm still figuring SDS out Rick. I think it seeks Stoichiometric when you use the closed loop mode but that isn't conducive to performance, and having tried it, it didn't seem to adjust very well either. It still went lean under loaded acceleration. They recommend against a knock sensor on VW type engines because they sound like they are knocking all the time apparently.

Pete Stout was critical of aftermarket EFI in a conversation we had a few years back. He said that factory EFI samples many more times per second than aftermarket programmable EFI. SDS allows a setting change every 250rpm. This conversation was back in the Kit Carlson EFI days so it was a while ago... This was back when McMark had a running 914. Demeaning look shades on Go ahead Mark. Give it your best shot!

Posted by: McMark May 21 2012, 05:37 PM

There is a start-fuel setting, and I have a feeling that richening that up may stop the occasional cranking-backfire.

Posted by: kg6dxn May 21 2012, 07:28 PM

Get one of these. set the spring to pressure. dial it to 2psi and screw to your vacuum manifold.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-relief-valves/=hmysok

Posted by: rick 918-S May 21 2012, 08:09 PM

With the air cooled element in the equation it makes sense that the thinking and reacting portion of the management would have to be fast, fast, fast. The engine doesn't have the added benifit of stable coolant slowing the change of the environment in the cylinders.

Posted by: wndsrfr May 21 2012, 08:49 PM

"Every once in a while, the car will backfire on start-up. "

Mine will backfire on hot startups, too. Maybe once out of five or ten times, but it'll give a good bang out the tailpipe--I'm figuring it's maybe cranking one or two revolutions before the ignition part of SDS starts firing but fuel/air left in the cylinders is now in the tailpipe & goes off. Interesting that yours is banging back in the induction end of things....can't quite figure that out unless it's perfectly timed during overlap. You've got a good header system, with no restriction right?
Mine has never blown off the rubber hoses to the MAP 4to1 block--they're really a tight fit & a bear to get off by hand, so that may be why.
I'm sticking with TP sensing--lucky to be on Eastern seaboard & don't get much elevation change between home & event venues....I also see the lean AFR's on light to moderate acceleration when in closed loop but it goes pleasingly rich when I boot it. I use closed loop most of the time in street driving unless I'm thrashing it. It homes in on 14.1:1 pretty reliably but seems to like being rich (like 12:1) if rpm's are below the 2750 notch. (And yes, my CL low limit is set at 1750.)
I'm still blown away by the fact that the car cruises at 60 with the TPS still in the "5" notch and accelerates at the "6" value--meaning that the throttle plates are just barely cracked (the TPS values start at 5 with throttle closed and span up to 50 at WOT). These engines are truly muscular for the car they're in...

Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 12:20 AM

Got some props today. I took the 914 for a drive, top off, stereo blaring. I noticed a green Cayman in my rear view mirror. Followed me for about 2 and a half miles through my neighborhood. When I pulled up to a stop light the Cayman pulled along side in the right turn lane. A woman was driving and she looked over, gave me a thumbs up and said "that car is so cool"... I wanted to tell her it was the faux painted flares but the light turned green and she was gone.

Posted by: edwin May 22 2012, 07:50 AM

Does the setup you have use a seperate map sensor for atmo correction?
Just about all the aftermarket ecu's I looked at use the second one to adjust fuel for altitude change which could account for your changes.
time to cut the sds plug off and put a megasquirt into this?
What sort of timing values are you using for starting and running?
I had lots of issues with a startup backfire and have changed to some really far out timing and it starts better and no backfire.
When do the seats arrive?
Loving this thread
Edwin

Posted by: DNHunt May 22 2012, 08:59 AM

Remember, this is a batch fired wasted spark system so there is fuel sitting in the intake and there is a spark every rotation instead of every other rotation. It can fire on the exhaust at the end of the exhaust stroke and during overlap under the right conditions. It is even possible under the right conditions to get it to run backwards. Ask how I know.



This system uses a single MAP reading at startup. The expectation is it should richen as you climb. Restarting the engine at altitude should correct that but his experience is the opposite and so was mine.

Dave

Posted by: kg6dxn May 22 2012, 12:52 PM

You need 2 map sensors so it will auto correct on the fly. Not sure if SDS can do this. My Haltech can.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 01:34 PM

Hope this shows what you want Eric... The fender wheel arch flange was too close for Mark's comfort and I am sure mine (I wasn't there to see it). I guess there is much more flange on these reproduction flares than on the factory original flares. As you can see here, Mark has done some very nice trimming to make wheel rub a non-issue...


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Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 01:35 PM

Another... Looks like plenty of room but as we know, the car gains negative camber under acceleration and suspension squat. I will pull one of the rears and see if there has been any rub...

I would say that Harvey knows exactly what he is doing. I had thought 8.5 was all he could do with the 2 - 16X6 wheels he used to make these wheels. Now I believe he knew that it was the limit without extending the flares.


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Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 01:35 PM

and another with Andy's old camera apparently


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Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 01:48 PM

Another tiny little project today: Protecting the elbows from blowing off under intake pops...


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Posted by: McMark May 22 2012, 01:50 PM

Oh, that reminds me. I have doubts that the MAP sensor was damaged because of the hoses popping off. Pressure relief.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 01:56 PM

I agree, I don't think it is damaged. But besides the elbows blowing off, where is the pressure relief?

Posted by: McMark May 22 2012, 01:58 PM

No, I meant the elbows blowing off.


It was a design feature...

Posted by: ConeDodger May 22 2012, 01:59 PM

LMAO!!!

Posted by: wndsrfr May 24 2012, 02:12 PM

Here's a shot of mine....tight fit rubber on barb fittings--I do get the backfire, but not blown any of these off.....smaller diameter than yours...maybe 1/8".


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Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2012, 10:25 AM

Well the nylon ties are working. Since I made the mixture richer throughout all the 'usable' rpm set-points it has run better. In fact I suspect I am a bit too rich.

One thing I would suggest to SDS would be to write there manual with a tuning sequence. They really don't give you a 'do-this-first-then-do-this' approach in the manual.

Need to find spacers for these front wheels though... Maybe 3/4"?


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Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2012, 10:26 AM

A bit of PMB goodness peeking through the wheels! Love these brakes!!! I can't wait for some matching rear calipers!


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Posted by: mepstein Jun 3 2012, 10:30 AM

Aren't the 944 spacers 21mm? I bought a set for $25.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jun 3 2012, 10:34 AM

Nice. Yeah, the 8.5 thing simply plays out. I experimented with an inside 9 and it rubbed inside. The inside 8.5 would pull a little off the flare and just clear inside (as your pictures show).

I have another full set ready to send his way I guess. I'll keep the 7's and 8's I have and use those for street tires. Then, as the 911 develops I'll probably move those over there and send those off for 8.5" treatment as well. Seems like the magic number. Actually, I'll have to check the offset on the 911. It might like a set of 8.5's as well.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2012, 10:35 AM

I'm glad that picture worked for you. I was just about to take another with a ruler for a reference...

Harvey is doing a full polish on a set of 7X16 for the street. His wife Susan is hand painting the crests so it will be full-blown sexy!

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2012, 11:46 AM

Actually Eric, Harvey said he can add an inch to the fronts too. I suspect he puts together some kind of offset that brings it out so it is perfect both inside and outside. That guy has forgotten more 914 tricks than I will ever know. Got to be different than just an 8X16 or he would have just told me to source some and he would RSR them.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 14 2012, 11:04 AM

Chasing down gremlins. I found my idle was high and getting higher so I quit driving it a bit ago. I had a ton of things to do with the 240Z anyway and it was good to work on that for a bit as I am down to just a few things for that to be complete.

What I found was that my entire throttle body tower on the passenger side was wobbling. Well, duh! There's the leak!

I tightened up the nuts that hold the manifold to the head and no bueno... I guess that means the seal to the head has been compromised.

So off it must come... Boo

Posted by: kg6dxn Sep 14 2012, 07:21 PM

Bummer...

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 16 2012, 10:07 PM

Dropped off the car at Original Customs today... A little McMagic and it should be just fine!

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2012, 06:17 PM

And now it is... just fine I mean!

Paper gaskets around the phenolic spacer were blown away and tattered!

Posted by: Katmanken Sep 29 2012, 06:25 PM

So does that mean the large displacement Raby engines creates such a high volumetric flow that gaskets cannot withstand it?

Inquiring minds wanna know..

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2012, 06:25 PM

So for today's fun, I did what you might call an educated butt dyno tune. In general butt dyno tuning is inaccurate and can even be dangerous to the engine as you have no data and you can easily go in the wrong direction.

But I have EGT, CHT, and A:F ratio to look at if I want. That's not what I did though. The SDS EM4-F that I control the engine with has a data log feature that records the average A:F ratio in each RPM range that you spent time in during the last running engine session. So, I took a ride... Three actually.

I knew I was running rich as my gauge reads in the 11:1 to 13:1 range everywhere. Given that the car is dual use, street and track/autocross I want to target a 13:1 range with unleaded premium fuel. I am much closer to that now. The engine is clearly happier and I also discovered that I needed to lean out the ACCPUMP feature at both low and high RPM. I also increased the sensitivity and the result is a better throttle response and less fuel gargling on tip in...

A productive day and a ride in the 914!

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2012, 06:26 PM

They do if your manifold fasteners back off.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2012, 07:02 PM

Just completed the final run of the day. Much closer! I should mention that as you get closer to WOT, you don't want to be in the 13:1 range. There I am backing off to 12:1 or lower even. Just safer... 7000RPM is the redline in this beast and it is a little spooky watching that needle go past the stock redline if you know what I mean but she keeps pulling and doesn't seem to mind a bit.

500th post for this thread! Still having fun!

Posted by: wndsrfr Sep 29 2012, 07:15 PM

So here's post #501...I found it very informative to do the "Brake dyno" step that they mention in the SDS instruction book. Be sure that CL is "off", get into the gas at a midpoint, say 4000rpm in 4th and hold it at 4000 with your left foot on the brake while increasing the throttle to WOT, keeping an eye on the wideband AFR. Takes a clear highway and a bit of practice, but it becomes easy pretty quickly. Your AFR's under full WOT and full load are the most important in my estimation. Letting it wind up through the rpm's and looking at the log isn't as accurate since it moves so quickly through each 250rpm step. The brake dyno step gives the best final check at say, 4000, 4500, 5000 (careful of the speed limit!) and you can interpolate from there. I got better information from that step than I did from dyno runs....
Enjoy!

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2012, 07:19 PM

I hadn't gotten to that section yet. I wonder what my good friend Eric_Shea would think of me torturing his Brembo brakes with that?
Now when you say 'look' do you mean the gauge or the recorded values when I get back to home-base?

Posted by: wndsrfr Sep 29 2012, 07:31 PM

Now when you say 'look' do you mean the gauge or the recorded value......
Literally look at the AFR readout....you can hold the WOT at a steady rpm for about four seconds, which seems like forever but gives a solid steady reading. Eric will love this as a through bedding process. Take someone along to watch the AFRs & record while you scan for state troopers...

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2012, 08:50 PM

I can probably get Rand to do the NHP watch...

Posted by: wndsrfr Sep 30 2012, 07:09 PM

In Nevada? You have speed limits? Why? Oh, yeah....just for the revenue shortfall, I guess.

Anyway--got out the camera today and did a couple of amateur shots of the process....get to 4000, left foot on brake & go WOT to see the AFR's. Finally got it to upload to Youtube, so here goes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4jyPRQaVNw

Another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNUNWDupcWk


Pretty rich on these runs.....high 11's to low 12's....sorry it's so shaky--too much power...get pushed out of shape....hard to steer.....unhhhhh

Posted by: jersey914 Sep 30 2012, 07:16 PM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 30 2012, 08:23 PM

Punish those brakes... let's see what they can do.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 4 2012, 10:17 PM

I did! I had a little help actually, Mount Rose Hwy is just down the street from my house. It is this little 20 mile stretch that goes to a lake you might have heard of, it's called Lake Tahoe. So I went up hill and had my foot on the brake at the same time. The brakes flat out don't care what I do to them and I can't wait for Eric and PMB to finish the matching aluminum rears! I found I was rich kind of like John's video actually and dialed things back a bit.

Posted by: dale73914 Oct 5 2012, 05:42 AM

Hi,

Awesome thread, i have been enjoying reading this one.

Your car is fantastic.

I have a question for you.

The harness bar in your car.
How does it mount , and do you still run( or would it allow ) standard seats.

My seatbelts are a bit sloppy on retracting fully, and i am thinking of replacing them with harnesses, but want to retain the standard seats and backpad.

Just wondering if what you are using allows this.

Cheers

Dale

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 5 2012, 10:06 AM

Dale,
I've had that harness bar in there for years. I actually had to look at it to get the answers to your questions. My car is a '75 so it is at the end of the 914 evolution. I say that because your car may vary from my answer. The harness bar which was sold by Weltmiester mounts through the bolt holes for the shoulder strap for the stock seat belts. I also put the stock seat belt shoulder strap tab under the bolt on the passenger side. It does indeed allow the use of stock seats as mine are.
They pop up from time-to-time in the classifieds for around $75. New, about $130. I think someone else is making them? Rennenmetal?

I plan to pull mine out and have it powdercoated to fancy it up a bit. The rest of the interior has fancied up around it and now it stands out. In a bad way!

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 16 2012, 04:12 PM

40 some degrees in Reno today. Did a warm-the-fluids run with the top off. Saw the gal with the CaymanS again. She waved and followed me into a shopping center parking lot. She will be joining the local PCA.

Then home, a good waterless wash and back under the cover till next week!

Posted by: McMark Dec 16 2012, 04:25 PM

is good.

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 16 2013, 08:30 AM

McMark got a great compliment yesterday and you guys thinking of doing flares should take notice...

One of the local advertisers in the PCA newsletter and a member of SNR PCA is a guy named Gilbert Dayao. He is one of my wife's clients - she provides the voluntary benefits for his body shop Gilson Autobody with 3 locations in Northern Nevada. This last winter at a board meeting, Gilbert offered to have Kim Messer his manager give me an estimate for painting my flares or repainting the whole car and doing some vinyl work on my 240Z. He said to send pictures and Kim would give me an estimate.
I sent pictures and Kim didn't get back to me so I called and he said for me to drop on down. Well, winter in Reno is a grab bag of stuff and when I was off, it wasn't the stuff I drive in. So finally, yesterday, I fired up the 914 and drove her down to the Reno location of Gilson. Kim came out and walked around it for what seemed like forever and finally said "Wow! I'm glad I didn't quote this based on the pictures you sent. I'd have been way too high. These were really well installed..." He said that the car was nice enough that he would just do the final bodywork on the flares, touch up a couple dings along the side and paint the sides blending in the rest.

Nice work Marky! I'm telling you guys, go to Original Customs and have yours done!


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Posted by: Rand Mar 16 2013, 01:05 PM

Like

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 16 2013, 07:34 PM

Been driving the snot out of it today!!! Runnin' gooood!


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Posted by: Elliot Cannon Mar 16 2013, 07:41 PM

You might have posted this in an earlier post, (I'm just too lazy to search) but what is the size of the wheels you're using? I'm guessing 16's? How wide are they and what tire sizes are you using?
Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 16 2013, 08:24 PM

16X8.5 in the rear 16X7 in the front... I'll check tire sizes later but I do think Mark mentioned earlier.

I'll do a scan and see if I can find it for you because I know how old and decrepit you are...

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 16 2013, 09:22 PM

For Elyut...

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 16 2013, 09:29 PM

Front is 205 45 16...

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 19 2013, 09:35 AM

And now to replace this pesky rear lid button with this sexy crest!


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Posted by: bulitt Mar 19 2013, 10:08 AM

Painting the flares soon?

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 19 2013, 10:26 AM

Just got the first estimate yesterday. 8 hours per corner to blend the flare (bodywork), $2000 for that, $1500 to paint both sides blending into the hoods.

Got to run it by Altissimo which is McMark's friend and quite the street rod artist.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 13 2013, 02:51 PM

Strippers!!

Now I have your attention!

Spent an hour or two in the garage today taking off the trim, bumpers, etc...

Going to the body shop for paint on Monday!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2013, 06:24 PM

Finally made it to the body shop today. Drew a crowd from the shop as soon as I pulled in... Eric Shea will be glad to know that I found out the alloy front brakes I got from him are actually "chromed." I didn't correct the guy...

Well, obviously I took it to an upside down body shop... Mark!!! Help!


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Posted by: Jmedeiros Apr 24 2013, 06:50 PM

I'm standing on my head right now looking at the last shots! LOL!! I hope to visit Original Customs soon! Love the flares!! Looking great!!!!!

Posted by: McMark Apr 24 2013, 06:54 PM

*ping*

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2013, 06:57 PM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 24 2013, 07:31 PM

Hurry up and squirt it.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 24 2013, 07:56 PM

E, they said a week....


So, I figure third week of May.

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 26 2013, 06:14 PM

Well ok, maybe not. I dropped in today to see Gilbert, the owner to make sure that they take lots of pictures as they go... It was already in body work! Yeeha!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Apr 27 2013, 11:43 AM

The car is righteous looking in silver with those flares and those wheels.

I'd have a very tough time choosing between your current bumper setup (very nice!) and all-black GT bumpers with GT driving lights up front to go with those gorgeous wheels. WOW! (And yes, you need to space the fronts, but that's easy peasy.)

Congrats!!

pete

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 27 2013, 11:58 AM

Thanks Pete. I'm very excited to get the project to this stage. Big thanks to Mark Whitesell for coming over to my house to help me strip it down for paint during his lay-over here in Reno last week. Oh, and lunch was good too!

Love what you're doing with Panorama Pete.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 4 2013, 05:42 PM

Today is day 10 of patiently waiting. I'm dying to stop by and take a look but I'm forcing myself to be patient...

Posted by: Rand May 4 2013, 06:29 PM

Let me know when you break down and can't take it any more, and need to go see her. I'll ride along for moral support.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 4 2013, 06:30 PM

Posted by: rick 918-S May 4 2013, 06:31 PM

Patience grasshopper..... You can rush silver, ever.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 4 2013, 06:33 PM

I know. I have everything I need to paint right in my garage but while I might take a crack at the 240Z (single stage white), I don't think I want to try and match/blend Diamond Silver Metallic.

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 4 2013, 06:38 PM

See post #529

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 4 2013, 06:40 PM

Alzo... can't we change the plates to STONE DGR?

Posted by: ConeDodger May 4 2013, 06:47 PM

I think enough time has passed so that is fuchin' funny!!!

Posted by: kg6dxn May 5 2013, 12:31 AM

Technically, I would be the Stone Dodger since I was directly in front of your car on that windy mountain road. Jim (driving Rob's car) unfortunately is not a Stone Dodger...

Posted by: ConeDodger May 5 2013, 08:22 AM

StoneHopper???

Posted by: ConeDodger May 9 2013, 01:26 PM

An update: The bodywork is done. One fender has a guide coat on it and has to be finish sanded but it will go into the paint booth this afternoon, then some time in the Easy Bake Oven then everything will get polished and I pick it up tomorrow afternoon... Oh, and it looks FINE!!!

Posted by: jcd914 May 9 2013, 01:45 PM

Apparently "StoneHopper" doesn't fit since I didn't hop too well


There was a time that "StonedHopper" might have fit?


So how you getting your car to WCR? Need a driver?


Jim

.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 9 2013, 03:46 PM

Sorry Jim,
I'm not going. I registered to support the event but my Mother-in-law died a week ago and they are holding up the funeral until we can get there. Which in my case is May 31 through June 17th. Yopu may go any time now. Plus, Yopu's oldest is getting married the 12th of June and we have a grandchild we have only met on Skype so... No WCR for me this year.

I think we need to bring it back to Tahoe soon...
Rob

Posted by: jcd914 May 9 2013, 05:46 PM

I'm sorry about your Mother-in-law, my prayers will be with you and your family.


We'll miss you at WCR.
Ya, I think Tahoe again would be great.

Jim

Posted by: ConeDodger May 9 2013, 06:38 PM

Thanks Jim... Yopu hasn't gone more than a couple hours without crying. They were quite close and would Skype at least once a day.

So, back to the car. I dropped by the body shop again after leaving DMV. I had a little problem reregistering it this year due to having, as it turned out 100 less miles than last year (Their clerical error) showing on the Odo. As it has Classic Plates, you have to have a mileage check each year. All straightened out now. Anyway, back to the body shop, the car was in the booth and they were masking. I am told again, paint tonight with curing over night and buffing tomorrow. Ready for me in the afternoon. Pictures will follow!

Posted by: effutuo101 May 10 2013, 01:18 PM

Ok, you should be getting pictures about now.

Posted by: bulitt May 10 2013, 01:20 PM

???? The suspense is killing him...

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 10 2013, 01:22 PM

Posted by: TJB/914 May 10 2013, 01:23 PM

Hurry up Rob the gallery can't wait much longer. Pics , Photo's

Tom

Posted by: ConeDodger May 10 2013, 06:53 PM

So, the suspense is killing you guys huh? How do you think I feel!

Well, she's home... Kinda cute isn't she?

Big thanks to McMark and Original Customs. I'm told I would have had to pay for an additional 8 hours of labor in most cases. He welds G O O O D!


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Posted by: ConeDodger May 10 2013, 06:54 PM

How about a couple more?


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Posted by: ConeDodger May 10 2013, 06:54 PM

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Posted by: ConeDodger May 10 2013, 06:55 PM

One more before I take her off the trailer and begin putting her back together...


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Posted by: rick 918-S May 10 2013, 06:57 PM

Posted by: kg6dxn May 10 2013, 07:14 PM

Posted by: sixnotfour May 10 2013, 07:16 PM

Looks great ..other than your front fenders are on backwards, No worries Brumos did too.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 10 2013, 07:26 PM

Mark!!!!

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 10 2013, 09:41 PM

Posted by: McMark May 10 2013, 09:51 PM

Looks like the angle to me.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 10 2013, 10:11 PM

I know...

Posted by: jeeperjohn56 May 11 2013, 02:50 PM

Hey Rob, paint job looks good, sorry to hear about your mother in-law and will miss your smiling face at WCR.John

Posted by: ConeDodger May 11 2013, 03:27 PM

Thanks John...

Posted by: Krieger May 11 2013, 06:15 PM

Looks awesome Rob! Very nice. Take your time putting it back together.

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 12 2013, 06:58 AM

Silver is a great color on these cars. Looks exceptional and looking forward to seeing the re-assembly.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 12 2013, 09:24 PM

For Jeff...

Oh Damn!!! Mark!


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Posted by: kg6dxn May 12 2013, 09:27 PM

Finally a picture of your car without a trash can in the background.


BTW, Looks great!

Posted by: ConeDodger May 12 2013, 09:28 PM

It's garbage day Mike... Nicho put it out by the curb!