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Posted by: StratPlayer May 6 2004, 03:28 PM

Had more freedom when I was a kid than I do now. What the hell is going on in this country.

http://www.stoppoliceware.org/

Posted by: wheelo May 6 2004, 03:45 PM

Thanks Strat-Player,
Sad-but-true... all the more reason for people to get-out and VOTE! Our own apathy is what gives these retarded political footballs a chance to score! The smog-bills here in Calif. are a nother example...
I say... give 'em the BOOT... come election-time !!!
IMHO

PS- I play a Dean, a Strat, and Yamaha, Rock-On ...

Posted by: seanery May 6 2004, 03:48 PM

petition signed.

Posted by: scottb May 6 2004, 03:51 PM

done.

and forwarded to everyone in the addy book.

damn i hate politicians....

Posted by: mikester May 6 2004, 04:35 PM

Of course I'm against this whole idea - it woudl be like banning everything that has ever been used as a weapon.

Pillows, power tools, kitchen knives, etc...

But has anyone been able to find anything within the last 2 years regarding anything related to this bill? Does it still exist? The last thing I'm able to find is April 2002 - so I'm not sure this thing is even still alive.

Posted by: aircooledboy May 6 2004, 04:56 PM

Boys, I got news for ya. If this gets your undies in a bundle, there are things in the "Patriot Act" that would make you skin crawl. I do a fair amount of Federal work in my law practice, never had anything to do with a terrorist as far as I know, yet provisions of the "Patriot Act" are being used to hose 2 clients right now. Hell, as far as I can tell, one of the guys is in custody for possessing entirely legal guns, but having written down some anti-democratic party ideas on a piece of paper that never left his apartment or was spoken about to ANYONE. And the feds don't have to tell me much else "for reasons of national security" (read "Patriot Act"). Kid has never broken a law in his life and he is in FEDERAL CUSTODY.

Rant over.
I do feel a little better, but I figure the chances that the feds are monitoring my computer since I represent this kid are pretty high (as allowed by. . . . . wait for it . . . . . yes, THE PATRIOT ACT :finger2: ), I should shut the fuck up now.

Posted by: GWN7 May 6 2004, 05:10 PM

George Orwell was right.......

Next the thought police will be coming for you......

Posted by: SpecialK May 6 2004, 05:13 PM

got my signature!

I heard on the news this morning that St. Louis (I think all of Missouri) is talking about repealling the "Clean Air Act" that requires Missouri motorists to have emissions tests. They said that since 97% of vehicles pass the tests regularly, it's a burden on poorer population, and that motorcycles and certain trucks (the main polluters they insist)are exempt then there's no sense in continued testing.

I'll have to look in the newspaper to confirm this, but if it's true.....

Finally, a step in the right direction!

Posted by: vsg914 May 6 2004, 05:19 PM

Hmm, makes me glad I'm an old fart and probably won't live to see this shit(I hope), but feel bad for my great gandkids, and the kids they'll have someday.

K, Okla. got rid of all inspections two years ago. maybe a step in the right direction, but then, we got no stinking smog!!!!!

Posted by: MattR May 6 2004, 05:20 PM

Next thing you know, they'll be banning paper, becuase people can use paper to write ideas to overthrow the government.

While they're at it, why not just create ministries that deal with different segments of the population to unify the government power. If you dont follow these rules... well you have to read the book to find out.

Posted by: Gint May 6 2004, 09:18 PM

I didn't spend more than 30 seconds reading that before I signed it.

Posted by: swood May 6 2004, 09:55 PM

Posted by: Hawktel May 6 2004, 10:03 PM

Yeah, I'd vote for a reasonable, middle of the road, canidate that opposes outsourcing and the Patriot act, and supports gun rights, strip bars, and Woman's Rights.

But, I don't know where to find any of them.

Posted by: skline May 6 2004, 11:10 PM

Just one more of "The rich get richer and poor get poorer" schemes.

Posted by: fiid May 7 2004, 09:35 AM

The Patriot act and the Guantanamo stuff is really dodgy, but so are a lot of things that the current administration is up to. If you think Bush is pro-freedom, pro-free market and doing a good economic job of running the country - think again.

The emmissions stuff is interesting too - it's all set up to make the air more breathable, not to do all that much for the planet. They estimated that if California trashed EVERY car and replaced it with a new Ford Expedition it would reduce these kinds of emmissions by 80%.

Someone recently forwarded this to me. I'm not saying it's all correct but it's certainly food for thought...

Posted by: RON S. May 7 2004, 11:24 AM

Yes fellas big brother is growing ever bigger.
One day,there'll be so many laws that to wake up in the morning,one will be broken before your feet has a chance to hit the floor.
It doesn't matter which party anymore is in the house.Their both squeezing us all in there fist.
It mostly comes down to all the apathy in people over the years toward getting involved in issues.It is sad that most people I know have no deeper understanding of issues.Their feelings on current events come from what Dan Blather or Tom Lockjaw tell them they should be.
If you get info from alternitive sources,a whole world begins to dawn in front of you.
You begin to see the forest & the trees together.
Then one realizes just how far off course things have gotten,AND just who has sent us there.
Ron

Posted by: mike_the_man May 7 2004, 01:36 PM

You guys need to all move to Canada. And bring your teeners! We're all real friendly here! In Saskatchewan, now that my car is 30 years old it doesn't have to pass any type of inspection, we have no smog tests here. Lots of space, free health care. Cheap housing. It's pretty good! The only bad things are -40C winters, and it's damn near impossible to own a gun. Ah, and our beer is better!!!

From the sounds of it, things are getting a little screwy in the U.S. I wouldn't even consider moving there till Bush is out.

Canada rocks, mostly!

Posted by: mikester May 7 2004, 02:55 PM

I'm am far from being a Bush supporter, I didn't like his dad and I don't like him. I lived under his Brother in Florida for a while.

Comments...
The emmissions stuff is interesting too - it's all set up to make the air more breathable, not to do all that much for the planet. They estimated that if California trashed EVERY car and replaced it with a new Ford Expedition it would reduce these kinds of emmissions by 80%.

-Who is "they" please?

I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union
simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.

-Completely false - Florida for one is running a extremely large Surplus. Jeb will run for president - bet on it.

I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

- If it's a "Secret shadow" how do you know about it?

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of
war.

-Conclusion based on circumstantial evidence.

I do agree though - get out and Vote! Take back your country.

Posted by: MattR May 7 2004, 03:31 PM

I think, unfortunatly, as long as we have a two party system we are going to have trouble. I dont think Kerry's huge budget will help the economy. Honestly, I think the next 4 years are gonig to suck no matter who wins. It would probably be better for Kerry to win, pull our boys out of Iraq, and wait 4 years for a true conservative to run that might make some things right. McClintock on '08!

Posted by: 72914S May 7 2004, 07:20 PM

register and vote. not for kerry or bush just wish ross were running again

Posted by: Lawrence May 7 2004, 11:56 PM

Posted by: aircooledboy May 11 2004, 10:17 AM

Hey y'all,

I have been internet incommunicado for a few days, and just got to read this this morning. I must say, it does my heart good to know that others outside the court house are aware of, and concerned by, the train wreck that civil liberties and our international reputation have be come.

BTW, after I posted my original message on this thread, I left the office about 45 min.s later. I was followed almost all the way home by a black Malibu with "US Gov" plates on it. Now granted, my office is across the street from the US Atty, FBI and ATF offices, and it could have been a coincidence. On the other hand I live way out in the middle of no where, and this car followed until the very last turn before my farm, and stayed in the exact lane behind me despite lane changes, for the entire 20 minute trip home. Given the lengths these clowns will go to lately, I would make it a 60/40 chance the escort was a little shot accross my bow related to my post. If so: Hey boys, it looks like I'm a slow learner, and I will not STFU about what is going on. And, it's cloudy out today, so take those stupid sunglasses off

Just so you understand my philosophical perspective, I am a registered, card carrying republican. But, I am also a thinking human being, and a father. I am gravely concerned that if we are lucky, MAYBE our children will live to see the damage this administration has done be repaired.

What ever your ideological stance is, it is imperative that we ALL get out and vote. At the very least, we cannot allow our next president to be selected by a career politician in Florida deciding which votes count and which ones don't.

Before I fall off this soap box, let me leave you with my second favorite quote of all time (for #1, see sig line):

"Those who would sacrifice freedom for safety shall be left with neither"

We simply cannot sit on our asses while the very freedoms gave rise to the birth of this country are tossed under the bus in the name of "Homeland Security"

Posted by: mike_the_man May 11 2004, 11:45 AM

I think I'll just lock myself in my garage and work on the teener. It makes my head hurt to think about all of the political crap going on!

Posted by: nebreitling May 11 2004, 12:55 PM

Posted by: RAR May 11 2004, 01:12 PM

There is an old sports axiom:
Always change a losing game. If this Bush isn't the biggest loser President in decades, I don't know who is. Vote for Kerry even if you regard him as the lesser of evils (I think he'll do fine). MANY members of Congress loathe the Patriot Act. E-mail your representatives and politely, briefly and constructively tell them you are seriously worried about the course this President has taken. They are loyal Americans like you. Senator Kerry is a decorated former military man who can do the job. Don't buy into the Bush negative hype.
To put this Bush (or is that bush) crowd in perspective, they even dis their own Secretary of State, a former (four or five star) General of the Army, and a graduate of West Point. One doesn't graduate from West Point without considerable intelligence, drive and loyalty. Yet, Dubbya didn't trust him enough to let him in on the Iraq invasion before many others were told.
If you don't like the job Kerry does, then say "next" by your vote. I want a President whose conduct I admire, and the rest of the Free World respects. Bush isn't that person. Change this losing game, and if we get a good one vote him (or her) in again--"Never change a winning game".
Ben of Ben and Jerry's has a political action group that allows you to write your congressmen and representatives with a few simple clicks. If you don't like a particular issue they support you don't have to send on that particular issue.
Democracy REQUIRES participation and constant vigilance, so participate. Your keyboard has made it easier than ever to do so.

"And then they came for me, but by then there was no one left to speak up."

914 content:
Clean air is important, and it is possible. New Porsches put out air almost as clean as goes in. They should give some of old car folks some lattitude though.

Posted by: wheelo May 12 2004, 01:57 AM

Amen -
Might I add .." If everyone is thinking a like, then someone, isn't really thinking"...
General George Patton

Posted by: MrPitbull May 12 2004, 05:13 AM

Posted by: Mark Henry May 12 2004, 08:58 AM

Posted by: dmenche914 May 12 2004, 01:56 PM

Maybe if the Patriot Act was in place prior to 9-11 we wouldn't have 3000 dead New Yorkers.

Bush is not perfect, he hasn't ordered whole sale carpet bombing of the pig muslim nations that support terror, if and hopefully when he does this, it will be ok by me.

So 70% some odd percent of Europe doesn't approve of our actions, so what? Is this the Europe that gave the world Hitler, and Mussolinni? The same Europe that has been overrun by muslims settling there? The same europe, that contains France, the yellow backed pussies that can't defend there own land unless we defend it for them?

Lets see, the UN, thats right, the same UN that allowed half to one million killings in Rawanda? The same UN that voted for force (ie WAR) against Iraq, then later when it became needed, some members (but not all) backed away. the same UN that allows nations like Syria be on human rights commissions?

As far as Clinton, he was too busy sticking his cigar (maybe for lack of dick) in some interns cunt to take any action to stop bin laden while he was in office. Clinton was too worried about world opinion to drop a big bomb on bin ladins camp, and risk collateral damage (Hence 3000 New Yorkers dead)

I like my Bush tax refund, the money I earned, that kerry saws he wants to take away.

Go ahead, and monitor all the web sites as far as i am concerned, becuase the terrorists are using the internet to plan attacks. I have nothing to hide, and if i did, i wouldn't post it on the web anyway.

Bush seems to be the best cannidate to take on the muslim nutcases (no offense to nuts) that want to kill us all, He freed Afganistan, where murder, lack of rights, and all kinds of horror took place daily until we got in a kicked the talibans ass.

We now are in Iraq, and got the terrorists all going after us there, This is good, because while they are there, they are not free to attack us at home.

Our government, with help from the Patriot Act has stopped many terror attacks aginst us. They got the dirty bomb guy before he carried out his plot. Numerous other attacks have been stopped. Keep filling up camp X-Ray with prisoners, and use what ever method works to get info, then torture the hell out of these pigs, just becuase they are terrorists, they deserve every bit of it (if you think not, go watch the nick berg or dan pearle video and see what these animals are like)

Oh yes, kerry, who just missed a vote in the senate to extend unemployment benifits, yes, that's a good guy. (He admitted to unlawfully killings while in Vietnam, and now want's Bushes head on a platter for some nudy prison photos of terrorists in Iraq, what a fake!)

Bush is not perfect, but by golly, he is a hell of alot better than that frenchy looking kerry (whom Kim fuck bad hair doo of North Korea supports).

And by the way, we are finally getting out of Clintons depression, the economy is doing much better now, than at the end of clintons reign (the depression started before Bush took office) The stock market fraud, and Enron were all going on during Clinton years. Bush has finally gotten much of that mess cleaned up.

Posted by: fiid May 12 2004, 02:28 PM

IMHO - the patriot act is unnecessary. If the US had even BASIC flight security for internal flights (i.e. were treated like international flights) there is a good chance that 911 wouldn't have happened. Before 9-11 I actually felt nervous flying internally since it was treated with no more respect or security concious than getting in a Taxi or a muni bus. Now of course it's ridiculous - they keep finding the underwires in bras. Very helpful.

You need to access what the actual risk of these things is. Dirty bombs are really hard to execute. So is anthrax. Think about the cost of life. I would bet that the most effective way you could save American life today would be something like passing a law to ban cow bars on trucks. (They raise the chance of death or paralysis in a low speed run-over accident to near certainty). It costs nothing, it doesn't impact anybody's day (maybe a couple of ranchers in texas - you could probably exempt farmers anyway). Traffic accidents take WAY more life than terrorists. They just don't look as devastating on CNN.

The Tax cut is nice, but we can't afford it, especially since we have engaged in this long-ass war and support effort in Iraq AND Afganistan.

IMHO the problem is that Bush/Republican camp (and even public companies) think that organisations can be shrunk by cutting off the money. It does work, but what you end up with is probably not what you wanted going in. This approach is what causes schools and education to get shafted where the military continues to enjoy loads of cash. Why? The military is better at fighting for cash than teachers are. We also short change our police force, and other public services, and we continue to pay for beurocrats to sit in offices maintaining hideously complex tax codes and the like. Beurocrats are good at the beurocracy necessary to keep beurocrats in business. So who loses? Your kids will get a sucky education, but they'll be safe in case Equador decides to build a huge military machine and launch a military conquest to take over the US. Let's just try and ignore North Korea for now.

IMHO - a smarter workforce is a good way to combat outsourcing.

IMHO - Kerry ain't exactly the pick either, but it's the lesser of two evils at this point, and while we continue to have a two party system, that's all you get to think about!

Whatever you do - make sure you have a say in it. Get out and vote. I'll take the dumb guy if that's what everybody wants, but not because he's got better lawyers and a brother in the right place.

OKAY - can't think of anything else to write about.

Posted by: fiid May 12 2004, 02:32 PM

Oh, Please don't think that corporate governence is cleaned up. It ain't. Theres a long way to go yet.

Posted by: aircooledboy May 12 2004, 03:25 PM

Man, I SWORE I wasn't gonna post on this topic again. Note to self: Starting tomorrow, listen to inner voice of reason.

"The same europe, that contains France, the yellow backed pussies that can't defend there own land unless we defend it for them?"


If it were not for France, there is no dispute we would never have won the revolutionary war. But the French did not stick around after the war to make sure we installed a government to their liking, and that is where we are fucking up in Iraq.


"Bush has finally gotten much of that mess cleaned up."


Like I said earlier, life long republican here. But dood, that is a stretch. Bush policies have resulted in huge incentives for american companies to send jobs overseas. My metropolitan area here of just under 200,000 people has lost 27,000 manufacturing jobs in the last 24 months due to tax incentives created by the Bush administration. You have to have a decent resume to get a job at Mickey D's around here right now. And in case you think that was unexpected, remember a few weeks ago when the labor secretary referred to the problem of american companies moving jobs overseas as "merely a new form of export" or some such bullshit.

You have no problem with the Patriot Act because you believe it makes this country safer, and who wouldn't be in favor of that? The problem is that it gives the feds the authority to grab you up because they wanna, and they won't have to tell your family or your lawyer a damn thing about it. If you think that is a far fetched scenario, I will introduce you (someday if the feds ever let him out of detention) to a young man who was taken into custody for what the government has essentially conceeded was otherwise legal possession of legal weapons, because some 27 year old piss-ant Assistant United State's Attorney decided he was "potentially one triggering event away" from actually comiting a crime. Thats right, he hasn't yet, but the feds thought he might someday, and he's in custody for some 45+ days and counting courtesy of the Patriot act. This kid is no more a terorist than you or I.

If that was you brother or son, I think you might feel differently about the "Patriot Act". Maybe it would have prevented 9-11, maybe not. Personally, I doubt it. The cost of the government "protecting me" with that kind of power is just too high.

"Keep filling up camp X-Ray with prisoners, and use what ever method works to get info, then torture the hell out of these pigs, just becuase they are terrorists, they deserve every bit of it "

The problem is, that just ain't the way the country I grew up loving does things. Being able to say we take action because it is the right thing to do, and not because it is what we want to do or is the easiest, is what gives this country the moral authority to act in the international realm. This administration hasn't just damaged that moral authority, it has wiped its ass with it, and flushed it.

"if you think not, go watch the nick berg or dan pearle video"

If you don't see the relationship between the ass wiping mentioned above and what happened to Berg, you are not paying attention.

Posted by: dmenche914 May 12 2004, 08:48 PM

Well I guess the 3000 dead feel better that the Patriot act might have saved them if it was inacted then.

As far as airline security, yes if we had armed pilots, locked doors etc it might have prevented that attack. however we have a muslim enemy that is bent on killing civilians, even if it means suicide. So if they can't use our passenger jets, maybe they will go to cargo jets, or private jets as missles. Just wait for bus bombs, like in isreal, then what, metal detectors for busses. How about that and it is very easy to do compared to anthrax and such, maybe a moscow stlye theater take over? There will hit us again, maybe not with planes, but they will find a way unless we crush them dirty pigs to a pulp. Bush is doing this, (but not fast enough for me)

Of we have to inact security for suicide bombers, truck bombs, even hoaxes of anthrax, the percieved loss of freedom by the patriot act will appear as nothing compared to what we americans will have to endure for security, you hate it, but it might become needed to perserve lives, thus I say kill them muslims terrorists now, where they live.

True france helped us out, and yes they did not help set up our government, but then again we (in america) where not millions of raging muslim loonies trying to set up some taliban utopia either. Since then, france has proven to be pretty much worthless. It was france amoung others that had sweet oil deals with saddam, that is one reason the opposed the war, they also has a very large radical muslim population now to contend with. france is basically worthless. it took about a decade to get a running good democracy with civil rights and rule of law in japan and germany after WWII, it is a bit of a strech to think we can just get saddam, and leave, thinking iraq can set up a just government just like that, we haven't killed off enough of there bad guys yet. we have so far done a pretty damn good job in Afganistain so far, at least the women are not beaten with iron pipe anymore for showing an ankle in public!

Jobs are coming back, believe it or not they are. We took a big hit with the"dot com" bust, be we also know that it was mainly driven by hype, unrealistic stock purchases, and crooked companies. This did not start under Bush, but did end under him. We are now in recovery, and will be back on track soon. the fake ecomony of clinton just could not last on the lies and greed that drove the market artificailly high.

As far as this nation always being all lovey lovey with tyrants in the past (your "america") keep in mind the only way we stopped hitler and tojo was bombing the hell out of them bastards, men women and children. We killed them in order to preserve peace and civility. I know this may sound strange to fight a war to keep the peace, but thats the way it is, and always has been, you have to kill the bad guys before they get you.

If we do not kill them where they are, they will come here again. Our planes may be safer, but they will try anything, even low tech has worked for them (Bali night club bombing).

I support Bush becuase he is taking the fight to the enemy. If kerry thinks we should get UN approval, well maybe he just doen't understand who are freinds are, and who has common interests with us, it aint the UN thats for sure. kerry "voted for the $87 mil for our troops before he voted against it" great double speak here.

you can have the best schools in the world, but that does not stop terrorists. In california we spend a ton on education, much of it pissed away on schools that are administered poorly. More money aint the issue, it's the administration, and teachers unions that have hurt the kids the most. Big administrative staffs, bilingual education, stupid manadates for education from politicians, lavish new offices for school administrators (Oakland calif.) while school room crumble. In my town all the scools just got new play fields, a stadium, and several new auditoriums, millions spent, but none on books or classrooms, yes they are using trailers for classrooms at the middle scool that just got a new auditorium, track, filed, and baseball diamond (and the old ones were just fine). You can bet your ass the teachers union will suport some new tax on me for the sad shape of the trailer, or the ragged book the poor kids must use, they never asked me to give my money for new fileds, or stadiums, parents that do not serve as a good example to their kids is also a problem, money will not fix that.

With a reduced military, what do you think we will do? Guess we would have had to leave the taliban in power.

Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2004, 10:08 PM

Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2004, 11:34 PM

Posted by: MrPitbull May 13 2004, 01:00 AM

Posted by: MrPitbull May 13 2004, 01:04 AM

QUOTE

I was followed almost all the way home by a black Malibu with "US Gov" plates on it.

If you really want to piss them off answer your phone with "Good morning, fuck Bush!".

QUOTE

So you say that Canada is friendly....Im not even wellcome to your country since im in to the bike scene over here.....Canada sucks big time and its the same with Australia.

Our last remaining major crime (Mob) families are the 3 biker club's, Satan's Choice, Hell's Angles and Rock Machine. Sad fact, but just looking like a biker, or being in a biker club, could/will get you denied access to Canada and this has only gotten worse because of 9/11.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 13 2004, 08:55 AM

Posted by: Toast May 13 2004, 12:03 PM

Just wanted to throw this in for those of you interested in Voting for Kerry. Not that all politicians arent liars in some way, but it is nice to have a picture to prove it.


This is a man that denounced his military service.

This was a man who had an alliance with the treason queen herself who was famous for befriending the enemy.

This is a man who was the head of the antiwar movement.

This is a man who not only called for, but embraced the idea of men to dodge the draft and move to Canada.

This is a man who called for men to turn their back on their country.

This is a man that called combat murder.

This is a man that now embraces what he once denounced and is now considered a war hero.

This is a man who once called his fellow war veterans baby killers, but is now proud that he himself killed while in combat.

This is a man that is despised by the veterans of foreign wars organization.

This as a man that according to the national democratic committee, if he really wants to win, will name Hillary as his running mate.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: vsg914 May 13 2004, 12:10 PM

Never liked Jane Fonda anyway.

Posted by: aircooledboy May 13 2004, 12:20 PM

Toast,

The photo you posted was acknowledged by the RNC about 3 weeks ago as a Photoshop creation. While it was showing up fairly often in soft money materials, the RNC has now denounced it as a fake and distanced themselves from it.

Posted by: nebreitling May 13 2004, 12:25 PM

Posted by: Toast May 13 2004, 12:46 PM

Posted by: SirAndy May 13 2004, 02:38 PM

damm, Jane Fonda was HOT back then!
do you think she would have dated a 10 year old german?

can't say the same about kerry, then and now ...

Posted by: dmenche914 May 13 2004, 03:00 PM

Belgium I believe has something like 25% of all young people (like under 21 years or something like that) as first generation newcomers that are muslim. France has a huge muslim population (recall recent news about bans on head scarfs, burning of jewish synagoges, and graves)

There are many muslims in the former Yugoslavia and south east europe. recall the muslims invaded europe before the crusades, took much of spain.

If europe is so important for us to please, or get permission from, it is right to ask what their record has been like in the past. It ain't been stellar. Maybe we should ask for N. Korea's permission also???? Maybe their opposition has to do with oil contracts, and arms deals. German designed and built bomb shelters in iraq, french missle systems, and all kinds of things, that saddam owed money for, money they knew they wouldn't get if we toppled saddam. This ain't the past, this is present, seems like a sell out. It is good to look at history, you tell me to read my history, but then say that the past is no longer important, which is it??????

The French gave up pretty quick to the nazis, along with ignoring the growing threat before the war started. Yes there were french resistance fighters that helped, but the nation basically gave up, except for the Vichy french, that actually sided with the nazis and shot at us. Now we find the french had sweet contracts with saddam and that is likely why they went aginst us. recall they told us they would support the war, right up to the eve of the war, then turned on us. Collin Powell was "shocked" when he learned on the news that france had changed its mind on the war at the last minute, dispite assurances to him otherwise.

Europe has brought good things, and bad things to the world. Right now we are trying to stop bad things (saddam, muslim terrorists etc....) If europe wishes to be aginst us, then that kind of makes them bad. Good god, how many did saddam kill, and france still supported him? kind of like they did nothing about hitler before he got too much power to be able to stop him easily.

Yes I have been to europe, and the middle east, but that doesn't mean anything.

The average american is pretty educated it think. Just because europeans do not like our policies does not make us dumb.

Maybe if the europeans could get together with a common language they'd get along better amoungst themselves. for me too learn the languages of europe is a bit of a waste, as there are so many. My knowledge of european languages will get me around england just fine, the rest will require a translation book. Knowing the native language is not a prerequisit to know whats going on, there are plenty of translations. Of course if we did not stop hitler, I suppose all of europe would be speaking german now anyway, which would make my choice of a foriegn language easier for my next trip. oh well


must say the germans made some damn fine cars however.

Posted by: nebreitling May 13 2004, 03:05 PM

Posted by: SirAndy May 13 2004, 03:19 PM

Posted by: dmenche914 May 13 2004, 03:33 PM

The difference between france and germany, verses us, is that we understood the problem saddam became, (regardless if we helped him in the past) and decided to do something about it. France and Germany decided to ignore the problem, and continued on. (much as france did with hitler in the early days of his reign) Yeah we were not perfect, but at least we are cleaning up the mess of saddam and trying to give those people over there a decent government. And we are not insisting that the others that helped create the mess help clean it up, so why is france and germany bitching at us?, it is all of our mess, and we are fixxing it. As i have said, we aint perfect, but at least we are trieing to fix the problem, we removed a tyrant, what has france or germany done to right their past wrongs in iraq???

And iran is also a problem, trying to make nukes with a bunch of nut case imans running the nation. Thats all we need, muslim terror atom bombs.

Posted by: mike_the_man May 13 2004, 03:48 PM

Why did you remove the tyrant? What gives the U.S .the right to go in and take out Saddam. Just because you don't agree with his policies doesn't give you the right to bomb the hell out of the country and take over. If that is your logic, then it's ok for the Taliban or Musllims to bomb the U.S., because they don't agree with capitalism, or anything else the U.S. stands for.

There were obviously no weapons of Mass Destruction, so that reason is out.

And starting a war to prevent a war??? That idea confuses the hell out of me? Either way you get a war, so how does that help.

Seems to me like there were alternative reasons for attacking Iraq. Somebody was holding a grudge, and somebody wanted more oil.

These are my own opinions. I certainly don't have all the facts, but I highly doubt that anybody really does. To me, there was no reason for a war in the first place, and now that it's over, there's no reason to stay. It's pretty obvious that Iraq doesn't want the U.S. there, so screw em and leave.

Religion seems to be the underlying cause for almost all of the worlds crap. I vote that we just do away with religion. Maybe then we could all get along!

Posted by: SirAndy May 13 2004, 03:52 PM

Posted by: Toast May 13 2004, 04:07 PM

Posted by: nebreitling May 13 2004, 04:11 PM

Posted by: mike_the_man May 13 2004, 04:17 PM

Yup, religion seems to cause a lot of problems. I'm not a religious person myself, so maybe I just don't understand, but if you're willing to kill yourself, or somebody else because of religion, I don't see how that can be a good thing. Even feeling guilty about how you lead your life, because according to religion everything you do is a sin. How is this a good thing??? While there must be some good that can come out of it, to me it seems that the negatives far out weigh the positives. How many people have died in the name of religion? Maybe I should start my own anti-religion. But the it would still be a religion. Hmm, a dilema.

Posted by: dmenche914 May 13 2004, 04:52 PM

The WMD was one part of over serveral reasons to get rid of saddam, not the only reason. We may still find them, he had lots of time to hide them, it doesn't take much, a small garage will hold enough ebola or anthrax to kill a lot of people. The UN, including france, and germany was in agreement with us that he had WMD, remember the UN vote on this? So maybe we never find it, ok but that means alot of nations, including france and germany were wrong. Facts that the world used to conclude he had WMD include his use of them on the kurds and iranians, and the fact, even when faced with war, he hampered the inspectors, and kicked them out, like it was some game of his. We understood the problem when he invaded other nations, killed his own, tortured thousands, gave money to suicide bomber families, and had terror groups as guests in his nation.

Yes I do care about the iraqis, I want them, and everyone in the world to be free of tyrants.

I see where you are coming from, you said it, you do not give a fuck about them, in which case maybe saddam would be your choice for the power in iraq. But even so, you might consider the threat saddam was to us, regardless if you care about the people in iraq or not.

I for one want better for the iraqi people. I believe removing saddam is better for them, and better for us (I believe he was a threat with his support of terror). We may have supported him in the past, but that was a mistake, and we might even owe it to the iraqis to remove him in that case.

Posted by: SirAndy May 13 2004, 05:02 PM

Posted by: dmenche914 May 13 2004, 06:32 PM

i guess you are saying if we can not solve all the worlds problems, right now, we ought to solve none of them???? We picked Afganistain to fix first, and Iraq was next. We need time to get all the bad spots fixed, will this make you happy?

Believe me, If I had been in charge, upon finding out about the rawanda masacure, I would have done something to stop that, but i was not in charge. Believe it or not, i do not control the government single handed. It made me mad as hell this went on, i even wrote the white house about it, i was pissed, fucking clinton!

so what is it, you want us to use force to solve problems when needed or not?

The UN, which many libs, and europeans regard as the final authority did nothing about rawanda, little chance they would have solved the saddam problem, in fact one car bomb in iraq, and the UN bugged out fast. Worthless buracrates is what they is, and thats the best of them.

So I do not understand, are you saying let tyrants rule, as long as they do not rule you, is that what you are wanting? I believe that is wrong.

Now the USA has many times given more aid to nations that were hit by disasters than anyone else. USA aid is there during famine, and diesese. We haven't helped everytime, but by golly we have done more than alot of others. The USA sent a ton of disaster relief to Iran after there recent earthquake, yes that is the american nature, to help. That aid was from both government and private (and i was one of them). Our sworn enemy, who thinks we are satan, got earthquake aid from the great satan. How's that for american help around the world?

I do not think I twisted anything here, I want a better world for everyone, but know that in order to achieve that, we might need to kill a bunch of bad guys first, and possibly have civilian causilties too (unfortunate reality). I also know we will piss off the pacifists that would rather see someone else suffer under a tyrant, so be it.

We also aided britian against hitler before we got in to the war. The reason had to do with doing the right thing, protecting other free nations from a tryant. Yes there was some self interest there also, as we knew pretty well if hilter got britian, we'd be next on his list. I think we are in iraq for both reasons, to help others, by stopping a tyrant, and protecting ourselves. If it was just about oil, we would have done as france did, and made sweet oil deals with saddam, and lifted the embargo, traded oil for arms, or what ever saddam wanted. Clearly it wasn't all about oil, we could have gotten it much easier by appeasing saddam.

Would you even have to ask an afganistaininan women if she is better off now that the taliban are gone? I think you know the answer (hell you got to be a pretty smart person, you own a 914!), i sure do.

Posted by: RAR May 13 2004, 11:17 PM

Communication between the FBI and the CIA, and internally within the FBI, would have in all likelihood prevented 9-11. The Patriot Act is meant to override "We the People". Our system of law works just fine (for some time now) to deal with terrorists. The PA is largely unnecessary.
We can't afford the 85% of the tax cut that goes to the very rich. We can afford the 15% that goes to average Americans.
The terrorists we were concerned about aren't in Iraq. We should be pursuing them world wide, not bogged down in a nation that doesn't want us there (check the polls). Saddam was bad, but not a sponsor of international terror as claimed. We can't police the World alone, Viet Nam taught us that.
Comparisons between a decorated combat veteran who saw things first hand and realized the problems, and a Barbie doll who lands on an aircraft carrier are ludicrous. Even Colin Powell wasn't keen on going into Iraq, and he led the first Gulf War.
The French may may march to their own drummer, but many Americans lived into old age because of the efforts of the Resistance. Credit where credit is due.
Most of all, I don't want to see the faces of the brave young men and women at the end of the news on PBS, and I don't mean they shouldn't be showing them.

I'm gonna drill out those spot welds this month if it kills me. Stiff rockers are the hot ticket.

Posted by: dmenche914 May 14 2004, 12:47 AM

yes saddam did publicaly support international terror, he gave I believe $25000 to the family of each suicide bomber aginst Isreal. There are also reported terror training camps in Iraq including one with a 707 fuselage reported to be used for hijack training. Saddam was host to one wanted terrorist also, he was public about it, but I forgot his name at the moment. There has also been reports of his governments close connection with other terror groups. He was neck deep in terror. At anyrate, al quida is in iraq now, osamas right hand number 2 man Zarquairi butchered Nick Berg on video just this week in or about Baghdad. We now have an idea where he is, so hopefully we will get him soon.

Good plan by Bush, we are drawing these human filth out from their holes, into the open and our brave troops are killing them one by one. This is probably why we might be in Iran next, rumur is number 1 (osama) is guest of the iranian mullahs.

The terrorist must win in Iraq, else they know they will loose support as iraq, and other nations in the area become free. That is why the terrorists are all heading to Iraq to take on our troops. It is far better to have the terrorists concentrated on fighting our troopsin iraq, rather than us civilians at home. Our troops are well prepared for battle, unlike us civilians. We owe each one of these brave troops our eternal gratetude for taking on the terrorist heat for us. They are doing it to keep us safe at home.

I doubt we were much wanted in germany after WWII, I am sure a poll taken then would have us not wanted in germany immediatly following the war. Sometimes nations are like childern, and do not understand what is really good for them in the long run. Maybe they do not believe that we really do not intend to occupy their nation any longer that needed to get it up and running and free of terror. Maybe the arab mind just cannot understand this concept of a victor doing anything less than inslaving all the remaining enemy, and plundering all the wealth as is custom in their first century culture. I believe in a decade or so, they will all have a lot of gratitude for what we are doing.

Are you also saying that the United States should be thankful that France had some resistance, thus making our job of saving France less deadly? well by golly, THANK YOU FRANCE FOR SO THOUGHTFULLY HELPING US SAVE YOURSELF! (except for the Vichy French forces, which killed a bunch of us, to think they joined the axis, jee whiz)

Posted by: Lawrence May 14 2004, 04:28 AM

Didn't you guys get enough of this crap over on the other thread?

Come on... let it go. Let's talk about cars.

-Lawrence