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Posted by: seanery May 28 2004, 06:13 PM

A boxster motor sounds really interesting. I know there is a bit of work necessary to get this done correctly.
These are the main concerns I'm pondering:

1. Transmission - Does Kennedy or someone else make an adapter that will allow a 901/914 to work?
2. Transmission - If no to 1, what other choices are there?
3. Mods - trailing arms need to be moved? or trimmed?
4. Exhaust- custom made?

thanks for pondering, too.

-sean

Posted by: Howard May 28 2004, 06:26 PM

Sean, understand I'm having a wierd day, but let's find a 914 tub with good body panels and a rolled Boxster. Graft the 914 panels onto the sawzalled Boxster! We can add some rust for authenticity. Waiter, bring me another

Posted by: horizontally-opposed May 28 2004, 06:26 PM

Definitely want to get a pre-2000 motor if you want to avoid the hassle of adapting E-gas. Getting OBD II happy should be interesting, and is way outta my league. But I suppose it's possible and someone here would know how.

If 201-hp isn't enough, you could always add a supercharger later, but maybe a 3.4-liter 1999 (also pre E-gas) Carrera motor with 296 hp would be an even better option while you're at it...

It should be said that the new cars have LARGE twin radiators, so cooling with a 914 might be tricky, though you'd have it in a better place (if center-mounted) and the V8 guys seem to make it work. Also, no oil tank to worry about.

Doubtful that someone is doing an adaptor plate, but I've heard there's a guy on the East Coast/NJ area who's running a 3.2 liter air-cooled motor with a Boxster S six-speed transmission... will try to track down more info on that...

All that said, the torque curve (pretty peaky) of the basic and plentiful 2.5 986 motor would be a great match for a non-flared 914. While unique, I expect this would be an expensive trip down Discovery Lane.

pete

pete

Posted by: Scott Carlberg May 28 2004, 06:36 PM

There is a guy in NJ, Scott, that has the Red & White 914 racecar that was in European Car magazine 1/2 a year ago.

Part of the email he sent to me about his Audi 1.8t - powered 914:

>
I used a 5-speed front wheel-drive tranny out of a 96 A6. It will bolt to the 1.8T. It is noted as an 012, however the older ones, which this is, have smaller bearings on the diff., so the Quaiffe won't slip in. The newer ones it will. A plus side to this A6 version is that it has tripods instead of CV's. You could weld the tripods to the 914 axles eliminating the need for custom axles. I use the stock 914 outer CV's with success. I just replace them once a year. I would replace the 5-spd with the Boxster 6-spd if I had the funds.
I THINK it will bolt up to the 1.8T.
I also think the 944 rear end might also (random thought passing through). The Boxster shift linkage & cables bolt directly to the Audi tranny/corporate sharing. That was difficult info to come by as the Porsche people don't know what the Audi people are doing and visa versa. <


I know, Seanery is asking about the Boxster engine, but he also asked about the Boxster transmission, and I knew NJ-Scott had mentioned something about that in the email to me.

Hope this info is somewhat useful.

Posted by: anthony May 28 2004, 06:51 PM

Brad has posted about this before. I think his conclusion was that the rear suspension pickup points would have to be relocated.

Posted by: Steve May 28 2004, 07:44 PM

Have you guys seen all the negative press about 986&996 motors?
Since these motors are wet sumped they are having oil starvation problems on the track.
Porsche still advertises these cars as dry sumped with an internal oil tank.
In the old days Porsche advertised that you could buy a car and take it straight to the track.
Now they are saying if you blow your motor on the track they will not cover it under the warranty.
You might also notice that new factory 911 race cars are using a 964 case with water cooled heads.
This case is used in 964 and 993 air cooled 911's.

If its just a street car you won't have any problems.
But I wouldn't use a boxster or 996 motor on the track.
There's also a write up on this in the latest edition of Excellence.

Steve

Posted by: synthesisdv May 29 2004, 06:27 AM

Its true that the 996/986 motors are not in the same class as the original air cooled motors, but they are damn good. There are countless 996/986 running around tracks all over the world with no problems at all.

Porsched Motorsport did come out with a motor kit for 996 the was basically a modified valve cover that returned extra oil to the sump better.

Also, early motors had problems with sleeves shifting and out of round specs on some oil seal surfaces that caused leaks but must of that has been addressed since mid 1998.

I have driven many of these cars and the motors are sweet. Just think about it, a multi-valve water cooled flat 6. You could only find that in a 962 a few years back.

Every motor has its problems. Just have to know how to handle them. Like Jake with the TIV's, you just have to know what you are doing. Also, these water cooled motors are still newborns compared to the aircooled motors. In 20 years, we will be lamenting that they don't build 'em like the old 996 any more...

dr

Posted by: anthony May 29 2004, 08:26 AM

The Boxster motor swap would only make sense if you could install the motor and the tranny as a unit.

Posted by: seanery May 29 2004, 08:28 AM

there becomes the problem...the motors seem to be plentiful and relatively inexpensive. The transmission, on the other hand, is hard to find and pricey.

Posted by: anthony May 29 2004, 08:35 AM

I wonder why that is. I assume all the motors come out of wrecked cars. They should all trannies too, right?

Posted by: ArtechnikA May 29 2004, 08:46 AM

i would assume it's from Boxster owners pulling old little engines to replace them with newer, bigger, better ones ...

the issue is not so much with 986/996 engines and track use. it is with track tires - especially guys who go run slicks.

you can run a Boxster or 996 as delivered on the track with no problem. when you start deviating from the as-delivered specs - by increasing the lateral g's beyond what the original scavenge system was designed for - there can be issues. not for nothing is Porsche adamant that you use only their approved tires on the car...

Posted by: Mueller May 29 2004, 08:52 AM

A local 914 guy picked up an early motor and transmission for $3500, everything included.

Currently the car, motor and transmission are in a shop in the Bay Area getting put together, they wanted to use the factory FI, so the struggling point was the ECU and it's lockouts for anti-theft. Supposedly a new ECU was found in Germany which bypasses this. ($1000)

Posted by: ArtechnikA May 29 2004, 09:01 AM

the engine ECU check its VIN against the instrument cluster VIN; if you're parting a car, get those two ECU's together ...

Posted by: Steve May 29 2004, 12:23 PM

Check out the latest issue of Excellence.
If you install the oil scavenge baffle it voids the warranty.
The GT-2 and GT-3 are both running a 964 case with water cooled heads.
They are not running the 986/996 case or engine.
All factory six race cars including the 962 are running a dry sump engine.
My only advice is to learn from someone elses mistakes.
Find someone who has already done it so you know what your up against.
Especially when it comes to money and time.
I am very happy with my stock air cooled Euro 3.2 six with DME.
It was very simple and straight forward to install with no hassles.
I have over 230 reliable hp.
With the weight of the 914 and the 901 gearing I can blow away pretty much any new non turbo 911 or boxster to 140 mph.
The only issue I have right now is I need to upgrade the front brakes from my current 911S alloy calipers to Brembos.
I also have a 993 cabriolet.
Its brakes are awesome and its not nearly as fast as my 914.

Steve

Posted by: ArtechnikA May 29 2004, 12:42 PM

got it. read it.

the sump baffle is not necessary for the street tires approved for the car.
you want to go racing on race tires, that's a different story.

all those other cars have different spec tires and are capable of generating higher lateral g forces. they have an oiling system commensurate with their intended use and performance.

you put a 986/996 engine in a 914, you're way past worrying about warranty issues ...

Posted by: Steve May 29 2004, 01:01 PM

I agree and for the street you would end up with a newer engine with newer wiring, injection etc.
And since its porsche you won't have as many issues with porsche club events.
I know there's pro's and cons.
With the water cooled engines you will need to install a radiator up front.
With the air cooled engines you will need an oil tank and maybe a front oil cooler depending on the engine.
I love the 914 but hassle wise you can pick up a boxster for less than 20k and when the motor dies just put in a bigger 996 engine???
Lots of pro's and con's.
My 993 cabriolet top is screwed up and its going to cost me $1600.00 to fix it.
My 914 top is 30 years old and is no big deal to take off and throw in the trunk.
I wish Porsche would build another 914 like car.
The closest thing they have is the GT1 and I don't have an extra $450k to spend right now....

Steve

Posted by: Scott Carlberg May 29 2004, 04:41 PM

Not to go too far away from this threads subject, but I have a couple of questions for you STEVE....

How reliable is the 911 motor? While I've always wanted a 911 for Mon-Fri, I've also always heard that 911s are VERY expensive to maintain. So, is the 911 engine in your 914 really reliable?

and...



When will you then?

Posted by: ArtechnikA May 29 2004, 05:15 PM

i'm not Steve but i do own 3 911-powered Porsche vehicles (2 914.6 and a 911...)

stock 911's have a reputation for being bulletproof. 2,7's - especially CA cars - had a hard time for a variety of reasons and are typically less desirable unless you have a really good reason for wanting one. anything in the 3,0 911SC through 964 range (i.e. - the engines typically considered desirable for /6 conversions and in the used 911's usually considered for purchase nowadays...) are darned near indestructable.

maintenance - you're buying 9-15 qt oil instead of 4. the air and oil filters are a little more expensive. you're buying 6 spark plugs and (when the time comes) wires. the rotor and cap are a little more. valve adjustment gaskets are $22 the set of 4.

if you just drop them off at the dealer (assuming you can find a dealer interested in touching an aircooled car any more ...) with a blank check and say "fix whatever needs it" it'll be expensive ... if you can do most of your work yourself they can be quite reasonable...

they are expensive to rebuild when they need it - the good news is that they can go a long while between rebuilds. but expect a rebuild to set you back no less than $7500 before you start adding in the options and ALA's... (which sounds a lot, and it is, but go price a Jake T-IV before deciding it's outrageous...)

Posted by: anthony May 29 2004, 05:45 PM

If you drop your 4 banger off at a $125/hr. Bay Area shop it will be expensive too. Just like with a 914, if you can do the maintenance yourself you'll save a ton.

Figure that if a 914 costs $500-$1000/year to maintain over the long run a 911 will cost $1000-1500 over the long run. By long run I mean some years you change the oil but down the road you pop for a top end or full rebuild.

To add to what Rich said, every 911 motor seems to have it's achilles heel except maybe the early 2L to 2.4L motors. Generally they are bulletproof and the bottom ends easily go 200K+ miles. The top ends though usually needs a $3-4K freshening up between 80-120K miles. The reason the 911 is still extremely successful in endurance racing is because the dry sump motors rarely break.

The 2.7L was know for the studs pulling through the magnesium case. The later CA 2.7s were worse because of the reactor manifolds. The 3.0L SC motor seems to be the most bulletproof. Their achilles heel is broken head studs. The 3.2L are also pretty bomb-proof but prematurely worn valve guides are common on a small percentage of those motors. I'm not sure about the 3.6L motors but prematurely worn valve guides and carbon build up is causing a lot of 96+ ODBII 993s to fail smog even though the cars run fine.

Besides conversion costs, the problem I see for a 914 owner putting a 911 engine in their car is that most likely we are getting used engines in the 60-120K mile range. One of these "low mileage" 3.2s goes for $7K. If you aren't lucky and get a dud you could be faced with another $3-8K to rebuild the engine. A worst case scenario conversion could cost $20K. It makes a brand new engine from Jake look reasonable. :-)

Posted by: seanery May 29 2004, 06:05 PM

this is one of the reasons why a water cooled porsche motor interests me. A lot of these are wrecked, or they are upgraded, so most are probably under 70k, hopefully way under.

Posted by: anthony May 29 2004, 06:15 PM

I agree that it would be pretty cool especially if you could make it work with the stock boxster 6 speed tranny since jumping to a 915 is another $5000 can of worms.

Posted by: Steve May 30 2004, 11:53 PM

Scott,

I agree with what's been posted about 911 engines.
And I will never have the money to buy a 911 GT1
Unless I start playing the lottery and actually win.
If you do the work yourself its just the cost of valve cover gaskets, oil and filter.
Except for adjusting the valves and replacing the gaskets its no diferent than the maintenance on my Toyota.
Well except maybe twice the amount of oil.
But the Toyota's spark plugs cost twice as much as my Bosch plugs.
If you install a 993 3.6 you no longer have to adjust the valves and or change the gaskets.
The hassle with the 3.6 is the additional work to install and its a bitch to get to the lower plugs.
I think a 911 is more expensive to maintain than a 914-6 conversion.
There is more to go wrong with a 911's body and electricals than a 914-6.
What I mean by body issues is with a targa or cabriolet versus our simple removeable top.
You also have power steering, electric windows, locks etc. to maintain.

My own experience with 911 engine reliability dates back to 1986.
Back in 1986 I installed a 1974 2.7 liter six that had a top end overhaul.
I put 75,000 drunken abusive miles on this motor and was hitting the rev limiter every weekend.
This motor never broke down on me.
Four years ago I could tell the head studs were starting to come loose.
This is a common problem with 2.7's and stock head studs.
The cost of overhauling a 2.7 was more expensive than getting another engine from a wrecking yard.
So four years ago I bought a Euro 3.2 with 80k miles on it for $5500.00.
This motor puts out 231 hp with stock exhaust and catalytic converter.
I'm much older now (43) so I don't drink and drive anymore but I still beat the crap out of my cars.
So far I have driven this car for four years with no problems.
I am also more happy with the additional power and DME fuel injection versus the webers on the 2.7.
The 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 are known to go well over 200k miles.
As mentioned there is some rare cases of 3.2's with valve guide wear.
Mine has almost new compression and no valve guide issues.
The advantage of the 3.2 and newer is you get the hydraulic chain tensioners.
But this is easy to add to a 3.0.
I would not recommend a 2.7 unless the engine has already been overhauled correctly with raceware head studs and other mods.
I feel the 3.2 is the best motor since its the least amount of hassle to put in.
You don't have to cut the 914-6 aftermarket engine tin to make it fit.
With the 3.6 you have to cut up the tin and its a bitch to get to the lower 6 spark plugs during maintenance.

The advantage of a boxster or 996 motor is obvious.
The motor will have all the latest updates and be much newer with less miles.
All we need is someone to make a kit and figure out all the problems.
I bought one of the first quick six mounts from MSDS back in 86.
We have come along way since then.
I now run a Richard Johnson mount so I can use my factory heat exchangers.

If someone figures out all the issues with installing a 986/996 motor in there car I might try that next instead of overhauling my motor or putting in a 993 engine.
For my next project it will be AC in my car.
This will allow me to to drive my car all year round!!
The heaters already come in handy.

Steve

Posted by: ArtechnikA May 31 2004, 05:19 AM

no power anything in my '71 911E. factory Targa top comes off and stows in the trunk just like the 914. (well - is has a vinyl cover and collapsable frame, but it is a simple mechanical latch and it does fit in the trunk. my new rigid fiberglass top stows conveniently behind the seats ...)

anyway - you just have to go back in time until you find a car that's as simple as you want. for a lot of people, the crossover point on reliability vs power vs simplicity vs creature comforts was the 911SC. the early cars didn't even have power brakes...

my '71 is pretty easy to uprate for additional power, at least as long as i stay in 915 territory.

(i'm planning to stay 'period correct' for my 911RS 'homage' and will probably do a 2,8 -- although a 3,0SC would be easier and as powerful...)

Posted by: synthesisdv May 31 2004, 05:38 AM

hey guys,

just keep in mind that only the boxster S has the 6 speed tranny, and that unit is sourced directly from the 996 carrera. So the 6 speed tranny may be more $$$ than the more usual 5 speed out of the regular boxster S. Unless you can figure out how to make the carrera unit work.

dr

Posted by: John Jentz May 31 2004, 12:11 PM

IIRC, the 5 speed is sourced from the VW Passat FWD.

Posted by: Steve May 31 2004, 01:44 PM

[QUOTE=ArtechnikA,May 31 2004, 03:19 AM] [QUOTE=Steve,May 30 2004, 09:53 PM] There is more to go wrong with a 911's body and electricals than a 914-6.
What I mean by body issues is with a targa or cabriolet versus our simple removeable top.
You also have power steering, electric windows, locks etc. to maintain. [/QUOTE]
no power anything in my '71 911E. factory Targa top comes off and stows in the trunk just like the 914. (well - is has a vinyl cover and collapsable frame, but it is a simple mechanical latch and it does fit in the trunk. my new rigid fiberglass top stows conveniently behind the seats ...)

Sorry!
I do not have much experience with early 911's or Targas besides there motors.
I was basing the Targa on the manuals I have.
I own a 993 cabriolet that I just had to spend $2k on to get the top repaired and aligned.
I am also not looking forward to replacing it someday because it wore out or the rear plastic window fogged up.
I wish they made a real Targa out of the 993.
I like the 3.6 with no valve adjustments and the 928 like rear end.
Even though its no big deal to adjust the valves.

I am curious on how the boxster conversion will work.
With the 901 or 915/916 you can use a shift rod.
With either boxster tranny you will most likely have to use cables.
Is it possible to use the whole shifting mechanism including the Boxster shifter?
Has anyone looked at the hassles of heating and airconditioning?
AC would not be any harder than the four but heating would be a hassle.
I know of V8 conversions where they stuck a heater core between the air intake and the hood.

Steve

Posted by: Hawktel May 31 2004, 06:41 PM

Humm, the Boxster Motor Debate.

Let me think last time this came up:

The motor will fit, but its way tight.
The tranny won't fit. You'd need to open up the rear and move things out I think it was a inch on each side.
You have to run a boxster Dash.

And, in the end, all of these would be able to be overcame with hard work, grit, determination, and dumb luck.

I think someone is going to do one for the novelty of it. If you could pick up a boxster Motor/Tranny/Dash for 2500-3000 I think it would be a hard one to beat. And boxster prices are falling all the time.

Posted by: synthesisdv May 31 2004, 06:46 PM

does this help anybody?

looks damn familiar

dr


Attached image(s)

Posted by: seanery May 31 2004, 06:59 PM

why do you need to run a boxster dash?

Posted by: synthesisdv May 31 2004, 07:03 PM

the ecu checks for the proper code in the dash.

I guess each motor is keyed with the dash panel, part of the immobilizer deterent system.

dr

would be cool to get rid of all the electrics and slap a set of triple throat webers on it.

Posted by: seanery May 31 2004, 07:15 PM

that or tek III with fuel & spark on it.

Posted by: synthesisdv Jun 1 2004, 10:12 AM

just FYI,

here is a 5 speed boxster tranny, $500.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33733&item=2480877851&rd=1

dr

Posted by: grantsfo Jun 1 2004, 11:21 AM

Why not just keep Boxster engine in the Boxster and make it more like a 914? Lots of sub$20K 2.5 liter Boxsters out there.

There are some great looking Boxster race cars starting to make their way to the tracks.

http://www.porsche-racing.at/fotos.htm

Posted by: Mueller Jun 1 2004, 11:41 AM

I guess you didn't read my post



I'd bypass this stuff and run an aftermarket FI, the Megasquirt would be fine for this application to keep costs down.

Posted by: Hawktel Jun 1 2004, 01:28 PM

Honestly, I read that part! I was just spouting the conventional wisdom!

I think a 914 with a boxster plant megasquirted would be damned cool. A super charged Megasquirted plant would be even cooler!

Posted by: seanery Jun 1 2004, 01:43 PM

Kennedy just responded.
They have no parts to adapt a 901/914 to a modern 996/986 engine.

Posted by: seanery Jun 1 2004, 05:13 PM

the reserve on the Boxster 5 speed trans listed above is $1750.

Posted by: 75boxster Jun 1 2004, 05:29 PM

That tranny is nothing more than an 012. Same as a front trak Passat or Audi A4. You can pick those up for way less than 1k. I have a Passat 012 in my garage that has a blown diff and it look the same bolt hole for bolt hole. I am sure the gears are different though.

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 17 2004, 01:38 PM

I think this is the second post I've ever added to the BBS, so excuse my ignorance and lack or response if you reply to this, but I now have the Boxster-S motor and the 6 speed Trani. I bought the 3.2 at the WWC swap meet. It has 1,500 miles on it, and it came complete with brain and injection... $4k out the door. The trani I got from Brad. Now I need to make it all fit into the 14. Britain has been forwarding many threads onto me so I can read up on all of your concerns. It should be a fun install. Since I'm not active on the BBS you will probably have to get your pictures from Brad, who will be helping me with this install.

Posted by: Pnambic Jun 17 2004, 01:41 PM

Welcome welcome welcome!!!
Make sure you keep us posted. Brad can show you how to get pics up here real easy.

Should be one helluva fun project!

Posted by: Jeroen Jun 17 2004, 01:50 PM

Hey Jason,

About time you showed up here

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: SteveSr Jun 17 2004, 01:51 PM

Kennedy Eng.will make any adapter you want if you will pay for it.
I can imagine you could send them a pencil rubbing of the engine block hole pattern and they could take it from there...................

SteveSr

Posted by: Pnambic Jun 17 2004, 02:27 PM

I believe he intends to use the Boxster engine AND tranny.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 17 2004, 02:30 PM

Thanks for piping in Jason..

Its is plain STUPID not to utilize a Boxster S 6 speed in this scenerio. Cable shifted.. hyd clutch.. the S box is based on the 996 box (as previously stated) TANK. BUllet proof.. come to mind.

You do HAVE to move the inside control arm ears. NO way around this. Jason's car is already nicely flared so moving the mounting points is only labor intensive. We will do it and will not be that big of an issue.

As far as longivity..... who cares.. you can buy engines with NO mileage on them for under 5k. I cant build a 4cyl engine for under 5k. You can buy them new from Porsche for under 8k with warranty. The oiling issue.. havent seen it ONE time. I attend track events upwards of 3 times a month with Boxsters running. We have 8-10 Boxster owners of have been tracking their 97/98 cars since they where new (upwards of 15 events a year) with NO issues. Dont believe the hype until you speak to an actual owner who has lost one.


B

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jun 17 2004, 02:45 PM

just curious - are any of those cars on slicks yet ?

the word i've heard is that until you're generating the kind of sustained lateral g forces that require slicks the OEM pickup can manage.

i note that Brey-Krause has a deep-pan oil sump kit for 996, Boxster, and Boxster S that's been deemed legal in PCA Club Race in Stock and Prepared classes. that should take away some of the additional worry for people who -are- running slicks ...

i have yet to see any Boxster cars running slicks locally; there may be some - i don't make all the events ...

Posted by: Mueller Jun 17 2004, 03:06 PM

I bid on a Boxster transmission on eBay, lost the bid, I knew I should have bid a little more at the last minute, I totally forgot about the auction after getting out bid early this morning.

both of these sold today:

Boxster transmission= $184

Boxster engine=$610

I agree with Brad, when you can buy a very low mileage engine and transmission, the Boxster engine/transmission swap looks much more attractive than buying an older engine/transmission that might be on it's last leg and very expensive to rebuild.

Sure you can build a V8 cheaper and have more power, but not everyone wants or needs that kind of conversion.

Once Brad nails down the Boxster conversion, I'm sure a tiptronic version will be just around the corner

Posted by: synthesisdv Jun 17 2004, 03:25 PM

now you have rich.

not sure how much boxster is underneath that bodywork though. Maybe he even has a Raby type IV.

dr


Attached image(s)

Posted by: airsix Jun 17 2004, 04:25 PM

This is just my stupid opinion, but if I were doing a boxter conversion and had to move the rear suspension, I'd move it all the way to the dumpster. Install a 993, 928, or boxter rear suspension. Our rear suspension is a weak-link. If you're going to the trouble, upgrade it with something better.

Now before anybody says anything about "the rules", remember, you're throwing the rules out the window by moving the pickup points anyway.

-Ben M.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jun 17 2004, 04:38 PM

and you've seen that car actually run ?
doesn't look like he's expecting much downforce from that huge wing in clear air. the struts are teeny and -- okay - maybe they're carbon fiber tube, and maybe they're not just pop-rivited to the rear bodywork like it looks like...

and -maybe- he's done all the structural engineering to verify that that structure is strong enough, and every other rear wing is horribly over-engineered -- but it looks to me like it'd either snap off in a stiff breeze (to say nothing of a spin at 100 mph...) or rip that rear panel right off.

i wonder how many 986/996 cars have pro-actively installed a Brey-Krause-type deep sump before track use ...

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 17 2004, 06:29 PM

Ben,

I measured for the Boxster rear suspension. It is something we are considering. They can be had CHEAP also. My concern is the wheel offset required to run it all under his current fender situation. The Boxster is WIDE.


B

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 17 2004, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome. I was about to post a reply when my F-ing computer shut down. POS! Anyway. I was able to figure out how to get the BBS to auto notify me when a post to the thread occurs, now how the hell do you get that box to wrap around someone's previous comment? I wanted to comment on mueller's ebay Boxster trani and engine deal! Couldn't you have let me thought I got a good deal for a least a week or two?
As for the scrapping of the rear suspension. Yes, that is the plan, the question is what to replace it with. Brad suggested using the boxster susp to me last week, and I'm open to it. The simpler this project stays the more likely it'll get done before I'm laid to rest! I too was concerned about the width of rear susp of the boxster but changing the length of the control arms might also be an option. I need to look under there and see what's going on with the geometry.

Jeroen: How can I get a hold of the parts list for the engine and trans? I need to order some fasteners.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 17 2004, 06:47 PM

Use the "quote" button when responding. You have to copy/paste and close the tags when you get what you want.

it will look like this:

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 17 2004, 06:48 PM

Oh.. 2.5 engines/tranny's are worthless. They can be had for CHEAP. You will not find a better deal on a BoxsterS engine than what you found. Promise

B

Posted by: dakotaewing Jun 17 2004, 06:51 PM

OK guys, here is another question to add fuel to the fire...
As we have all seen, Brads sig at the bottom of his posts says he wants to build the first V8 Boster.... (at least at one time it did).
What is the feasability of using the Boxter tranny with a
SBC in a 914?
Thom

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 17 2004, 06:57 PM

The BoxsterS 6 speed would work fine with a SBC. Problem is: KEP isnt even considering an adapter for it (yet). I called them early last year asking them to get started.. I buy a lot from them and they still told me "no thanks".

Now the reason why the 6 speed would work:

The problem with the 986/996 engines is the fact that the starter comes in from the engine side and not the tranny side like a air cooled Porsche engine. This is OK for the V8 because you could run a stock GM starter against a flexplate flywheel. Jaidecar did this back in the day. They used a GM automatic flexplate with a flywheel (no ring gear) mounted to it. Pretty simple. The whole reason I had the BoxsterS 6 speed was to figure out a way to run it behind air cooled Porsche engines... then WEVO released the setup for the 915 mid engine.. so I dropped it.


B

Posted by: dakotaewing Jun 17 2004, 07:05 PM

Brad,
I'm sure that between yourself and a few of the talented unnamed regulars here
that an adapter plate could be put together....
TE

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 17 2004, 07:15 PM

First person with cash in hand..LOL

The cables and shifters are pretty cheap.. the length of the cables is correct. The shifter assembly mounts on TOP of the center tunnel wherever you would like it as high as you would like it... We already know how to do hyd clutches.

Oh.. the BoxsterS box is a true cable shifted from the factory box.. the other Boxster boxes use a "monkey motion" linkage setup connected to a shift rod like a 901/915/930 (they are not TRUE cables shifted boxes) The S box has two arms on the side of it. Connect the cables and run.


B

Posted by: grantsfo Jun 17 2004, 07:25 PM

Man! Now I have to wait to see what you guys do. If you can pull off an affordable conversion I might consider dropping my Boxsters 2.7 and upgrading to a 3.4. Then put the 2.7 in the 914. Two for the price of one and half.


Found this picture of Boxster on slicks:

Posted by: ejm Jun 17 2004, 08:48 PM

Shouldn't be too difficult. You could use the original throttle pedal assy or just adapt it's potentiometer to the pedal in the car. Six or so wires the ECU and your flying by wire. For OBD you need the ability to scan the ECU for running/performance DTC's but many of the OBD2 components/systems are not needed. The secondary air and canister purge stuff can be left off and the fittings capped. When you scan the ECU the faults will be stored but running will be unaffected. Likewise the cats could be gutted, the rear O2 sensors will set a cat efficiency code but so what. I doubt you'll be hooking up a check engine light.




I think this may be the bigger problem. The immobilizer system has a few more components, the read coil around the ignition lock and the key with a transponder. When the ignition is switched on the immo system looks to see that the key is one that has been adapted to the car while the system was in a password enabled learning mode. Someone can "dupe" you key and open the door but the engine won't run. You either have to wire up and tuck away all the components or find a way to "unlock" the ECU without the immo stuff.

Posted by: Mueller Jun 17 2004, 09:04 PM

Jason,

both the Boxster engine and transmission had "issues"...and about 80k miles (hard from what it sounded like talking to the owner)...

the only reason I wanted to transmission was to do some research on a few things (SBC and our aircooled motors)....for a few hundered bucks, I thought it would be great deal for R&D and it wouldn't hurt too bad if it sat around for a while.

You got a killer deal and one that a lot of Boxster owners would have loved to get to upgrade thier older Boxsters.

One good thing for us (conversion-perversion folks) is that I don't see too many early Boxster and early 996 guys wanting the newer motors with the E-throttle....too much work for them, it's not a true bolt in procedure for the non-E-throttle cars....which means more motors available for us

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 17 2004, 11:24 PM

Thanks for clarifying Mike. Actually I wasn't too worried about the whole Ebay thing, I was F'ing w/ you. Hell, I'm still in the euphoric state of 3.2L ownership! Each time I step into my garage and look at that engine I get wood.

Anyway, as for the E-Throttle you are all talking about: I already have the throttle pedal itself (essentially a plastic pedal with a cable attached), and the guy I bought the engine from (Chris) will be removing the poteniometer from under the dash in the next few weeks. The cable from the pedal will attach directly to the poteniometer, and from there it's all elecrical wire back to the engine. It should be a plug and play sort of deal.

It's pretty ridiculous if you stop to think about it: 914 Chassis, Boxster motor, Boxster Trani, Boxster shifter, Boxster throttle, Boxster rear suspension.... I wonder if Chris will sell me the interrior!

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 21 2004, 02:58 PM

Since I can't seem to add more than one picture per post:


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 21 2004, 02:59 PM

And one more:


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Jeroen Jun 21 2004, 03:42 PM

For those worrying... that's a LIGHT beer

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 21 2004, 06:40 PM

It was Amstel light.. I drank them all...LOL Great shots Jason. I figured they would surface sooner or later.


B

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 23 2004, 08:30 AM

See, I'm not totally worthless!

For those of you who were worried about the immobilizer unit on the engine: I spoke with Chris yesterday, and he has already obtained the codes from Porsche. Apparently there are codes for: The engine, the Nav system, and the radio. In order to obtain any of these codes Porsche requires proof of ownership of the vehicle i.e. copy of pink slip. I guess Chris put in a request for all of these codes some time ago. Brad later informed me that Porsche will also release these codes to shops, so it sounds like we have our basis covered.
Oh and for those of you interested: Chris is selling the Radio and Nav System too! **914 with a Nav system?**

Now on to the next hurdle.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jun 23 2004, 08:35 AM

now -that- would be useful ! something to tell the AAA operator -exactly- where you are when you need that tow !

Posted by: SilverBullet Jun 24 2004, 08:45 AM

Haahaa!

Or more importantly telling the State Farm claims adjuster where exactly the charred remains can be found!

Posted by: ajracer Jan 16 2005, 01:12 PM

Silver Bullet:

Just came across this thread and some photos. I have been looking
at using a boxster tranny in a 914; but looking at my boxster tranny
photos regarding the "starter pocket location" and your engine photos
I am confused ! Your starter is mounted on top of the engine which
leads me to believe teh tranny starter pocket must also be located up
there !. BUT my boxster tranny (1998 five spped) has the starter
pocket on the lower passenger side about 2" below the centre line of
the crank, nowhere near the top of tranny.

Please confirm if your tranny in the photos is a six speed or out of
another model 996 etc. Thanks and must appreciate your pending
reply/info.

Allan

Posted by: Mueller Jan 16 2005, 02:21 PM

QUOTE

BUT my boxster tranny (1998 five spped) has the starter pocket on the lower passenger side about 2" below the centre line of the crank, nowhere near the top of tranny.

that is due to the transmission housing being used on Audi engines as well...not sure if it's for the inline 4's or V6's or V8 models....

what motor are you going to mate that transmission up to?

I'd like to see the modifications or adapter if mating to an air-cooled engine (/4 or a /6)

Posted by: vortrex Jan 16 2005, 02:58 PM

some guy in NJ posted a week or so ago with the red 914 with the boxster transmission, forgot what motor he was using though.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 16 2005, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (vortrex @ Jan 16 2005, 01:58 PM)

some guy in NJ posted a week or so ago with the red 914 with the boxster transmission, forgot what motor he was using though.

3.2 I believe...payed mega-bucks to the shop to install it.....$10K+ just for the install (lot's of fabrication and R&D)

Posted by: ajracer Jan 16 2005, 10:49 PM

OK, attached is a photo of the Tranny for your consideration and replies.
I got the info from a friend that confirmed it was a Five Speed from a 1998
Boxster 2.5 or 2.7 L. After looking at the tranny case and the numbers located
on it indicate it's actually mfg. by Audi/VW and used by Porsche in their Boxsters.

As you can see when you compare my photo of the tranny to the rear engine
mounting surface in picture listed above these two would definately not mate
no matter what type of adapter plate. Appreciate any comments and replies.

Thanks

Allan


Attached image(s)

Posted by: neo914-6 Jan 17 2005, 01:13 AM

Allan,

The engine above is 3.2 Boxster "S" and came with an "S" 6-speed. Jason and Darren are transplanting the complete drivetrain including rear suspension. Don't expect a response since they don't log into this site often. You may have better luck with direct email.

This http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=8784&hl=boxster%20cable%20shifter&st=0 explains some of the differences so you are correct, the Type 4 will not bolt up.

The guy who had a Boxster tranny installed had a later six..http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94496&perpage=20&highlight=boxster%20transmission&pagenumber=2#post773670

Posted by: Mueller Jan 17 2005, 10:21 AM

QUOTE (ajracer @ Jan 16 2005, 09:49 PM)

OK, attached is a photo of the Tranny for your consideration and replies. I got the info from a friend that confirmed it was a Five Speed from a 1998 Boxster 2.5 or 2.7 L. After looking at the tranny case and the numbers located on it indicate it's actually mfg. by Audi/VW and used by Porsche in their Boxsters. As you can see when you compare my photo of the tranny to the rear engine mounting surface in picture listed above these two would definately not mate no matter what type of adapter plate. Appreciate any comments and replies. Thanks Allan

the transmission you have will bolt right up to the engine in the picture.......the transmission has multiple thru holes that are not used when mated to the Boxster engine.

When used on the Boxster, the transmission does not need a traditional starter "hump" due to it's location on the motor.(and the size of flywheel, plus other factors)

The "hump" you see on your transmission cannot be used with any of the flat /4's or /6's unless you have one heck of a short starter

You still have not said what motor you want to use. If an aircooled engine, you better have money or access to a machine shop or be a good fabricator

Posted by: GTeener Jan 17 2005, 02:43 PM

So... in summary...

There are easier and more cost-effective ways of getting the 914 to go faster.

But if you want Boxster performance...buy a Boxster!

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 17 2005, 04:19 PM

I don't know about all of you but it doesn't look hard to mate the motor to the 901 or the Audi trans to me.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 17 2005, 04:22 PM

QUOTE (ajracer @ Jan 16 2005, 08:49 PM)

OK, attached is a photo of the Tranny for your consideration and replies. I got the info from a friend that confirmed it was a Five Speed from a 1998 Boxster 2.5 or 2.7 L. After looking at the tranny case and the numbers located on it indicate it's actually mfg. by Audi/VW and used by Porsche in their Boxsters. As you can see when you compare my photo of the tranny to the rear engine mounting surface in picture listed above these two would definately not mate no matter what type of adapter plate. Appreciate any comments and replies. Thanks Allan

Show me a side profile of the tranaxle in the picture.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 17 2005, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 17 2005, 03:19 PM)

I don't know about all of you but it doesn't look hard to mate the motor to the 901 or the Audi trans to me.

if using the Boxster engine, it makes sense to use the Boxster transmission, I think it would be silly to try and mate any other gear box to it...no reason to unless you want an automatic or the audi gearboxes are totally cheaper and can easily be adapted to it.

now for adapting the Boxster transmission to an air-cooled motor, that does seem more logical...I've been looking for a dirt-cheap gearbox to do some R&D on

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 17 2005, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 17 2005, 03:26 PM)

now for adapting the Boxster transmission to an air-cooled motor, that does seem more logical...I've been looking for a dirt-cheap gearbox to do some R&D on  :smash:  :welder:

this would be the hot tip! type IV or aircooled six with a boxter S six speed tranny

Posted by: Mueller Jan 17 2005, 04:31 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 17 2005, 03:28 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 17 2005, 03:26 PM) now for adapting the Boxster transmission to an air-cooled motor, that does seem more logical...I've been looking for a dirt-cheap gearbox to do some R&D on  :smash:  :welder: this would be the hot tip! type IV or aircooled six with a boxter S six speed tranny

I have access to a Tip from a Boxster S, but I don't know how much the owner wants for it.....I'm guessing 10X more than what I want to pay, LOL

Posted by: ajracer Jan 17 2005, 09:15 PM

RICH

Please fin below a Right/Passenger side view of the tranny
and clearly shows the "starter" pocket. Thus looking from the
photo make me think that I could mount a starter within this
pocket area from the engine side; just a thought.

Also I understand that the Cast Aluminum Case could be modified
and possibly weld in a starter boss for mounting a starter, and if
an adapter plate of some kind was used then the start could be
mount to adapter plate, just a thought. Any idea to comments

Allan

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 17 2005, 11:17 PM

Don't work so hard. Use the Boxster starter in it's current location and Boxster flywheel. Make an adapter plate with counter sunk fasteners to attach it to the block. Slide bolts through the adapter plate tword the trans axle side. Use nuts on the transaxle bolts Based on the photo you posted above there is clearly enough material on the belhousing to allow some shortening to get the input shaft back into the pilot bearing. The casting the bolts slide through looks to be 2" long. If the transaxle interferes with the boxster starter trim the bellhousing. Easy..

P.S. I'd bet there may even be a bolt or two that are on the same base circle.