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Posted by: PBC914 May 28 2011, 03:16 PM

...a broken upper case! This is the first time I've had time to drop the engine and do some major work on the engine itself. I bought it this winter and was not able to view the engine closely because of all of the debris on it. It was not running at the time. It looks like the cylinder broke on top, and broker the case on the passenger side on top. I found a rusty connecting rod piece. Major bummer.

Question-is the case repairable? I want to keep the car original with the original engine.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Posted by: john rogers May 28 2011, 03:59 PM

Cases are generally not repairable and if the rod has rust the other parts inside are toast so get another engine and in your spare time strip this one for things like heads, etc.

Posted by: 70_914 May 28 2011, 04:38 PM

Take it to an aluminum welder and ask, don't take the opinions of people online who can't even see the engine...

Posted by: Elliot Cannon May 28 2011, 04:44 PM

Unless, of course, those opinions are based on years of experience. I think he said "generally" not fixable. There are exceptions.

Posted by: vsg914 May 28 2011, 05:35 PM

Damn.thats kinda harsh Kevin. most of the threads here are asking the opinions of others. Most of which are valued opinions. Not listening to advice of the people who know is usually a recipe for disaster. Ask all you want man.

Posted by: stewteral May 28 2011, 06:44 PM

Another Opinion:

The "weldability" of the cases is dependent on the Aluminum alloy and the Germans do LOVE mixing Magnesium into their aluminum. I do NOT know what the alloy is, but know it could very problomatic welding. The best thing is to call a weld shop and ask them about their experience trying to save cases.

The point that no one has mentioned: IF a case CAN be welded, there is NO doubt that any matting surfaces will have to be re-machined. It the break is around the bores, it may work OK. However, if the break involves the case mating surface to the other case half, the surface must be milled and THEN the cases, bolted together, will HAVE to be line-bored for bearing fit.

The last question: What forces created the break in the case? Will you feel SURE that a weld repair will recreate the strength of the original casting? Lots of unknowns here!

If it were MY engine, I'd find another engine and rebuild it...or....At the very least a replacement case and extensive rebuild ot the internals.

A last (and probably distasteful choice to most 914ers) would be to go Straight VW, dump the EXPENSIVE Type IV engine and enjoy the volume pricing of building a 2200 cc Type II or type I engine. The parts are EVERYWHERE and they are cheap relative to 411!. I'm currently doing a complete bare-chassis restoration of a '73 and ended up putting $1000 in the engine rebuild. I must admit that the cost included being raped by AutoAtlanta on main bearing: $200, a Weber carb setup for $250 (used) and extra cost for BIG Bores (1.7l goes to 1.9l).

BTW: I've been rebuilding street and race engines for 49 years)

Hope this helps, but the decision is YOURS,

Terry

Posted by: Richard Casto May 28 2011, 06:52 PM

One of my previous 914s had a case that had been repaired via welding. I can't give you details of how as it was done by a PO.

Richard

Posted by: Jacob May 28 2011, 07:03 PM

I am not an expert in these matters myself, but in the book "How To Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-cooled Engine" by Tom Wilson. From HP Books. Printed 1987. On page 77. In the caption under a severely cracked aluminum case, it says :


"Aluminum Type 4 cases can be welded, welded again, and welded some more. Good thing too."

The opinion, of the author, of the book, was that the type 4 was the most desired of the VW air-cooled engines. He preferred the aluminum case over the magnesium cases of the previous engines.

Book is available on Amazon for $15. I thought it was very informative.
http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Volkswagen-air-Cooled-Engine-models/dp/0895862255

Posted by: kg6dxn May 28 2011, 07:05 PM

The problem is getting the case clean enough to weld. If you do have a magnesium case, try welding it outside. Once you spark mag it will burn and burn and burn and burn....

Unless your car will be restored to factory apperance, there is not a ton of value in the original engine. You may spend a lot of money you don't need to. Weigh the cost versus the value at resale. Even if you save it, the engine is "repaired" and you will loose some value.

Posted by: stugray May 28 2011, 07:08 PM

I was a welder for 13 years.
I DO NOT recommend trying to fix a type IV engine case with welding.

the ONLY exception would be if this was a very valuable engine/chassis mix that just cannot be split up due to originality.

Otherwise, you will spend ~1/10 of the cost replacing it vs fixing it and then you will never be able to depend on the reliability.

Just my 0.02...
Stu

Posted by: Derek Seymour May 28 2011, 07:17 PM

Buy another engine, drop it in, enjoy your 914. Keep the original and take the proper time to repair it. Type IV's are robust, they can take it, a Type I can't. However you need to do it right the first time. You will spend similar amounts of $$$ repairing a rush job on your current engine as buying a well built running Type IV. IMHO

Posted by: PBC914 May 28 2011, 09:09 PM

Thanks everyone-I'll give the weld a try first. Keep the suggestions coming, I very much appreciate everyone's time, experience and input.
Paul

Posted by: speed metal army May 28 2011, 09:23 PM

Hey,any welder experienced in alloys will have no problem making the repair.Choose wisely.I have personally repaired some"unweldable" or "not salvageable" items.All of which are still ticking away to this day.
Dont believe the hype.

Posted by: McMark May 29 2011, 12:46 AM

The only question worth considering is how much money is the originality worth to you? As far as I've seen 914-4 buyers never seem to care about numbers matching, and I would expect more people to have doubts about a welded case. Other than for a competitive concours car, I simply don't see the value in it.

But that being said, it's your car and your money, so follow your dreams.

Posted by: stugray May 29 2011, 02:40 PM

For the cost of welding, machining the mating halves , then align-boring, you could have another complete running engine.
AND you have not found the root cause for the initial failure.... I guarantee that more problems will be found once you crack it open.

Dont believe the statement "Dont believe the hype."

The TRUTH is that: it would cost more to fix that than to replace it.

Stu

Posted by: speed metal army May 29 2011, 04:48 PM

..The "dont beleive the hype" statement was referring only to the weldability of the case.Nothing more.And the "choose wisely" statement was referring to choosing a welder that knows his stuff.

Posted by: r_towle May 29 2011, 08:29 PM

It can be welded....its been done for years when the lower oil sump pick up tube mount is broken off, or when its stroked out to a very large stroke.

Take it to a pro and listen to the advice of a good welder that is looking at the part in person.

RIch

Posted by: Bleyseng May 30 2011, 09:30 AM

it can be welded but you won't be saving time nor money in the long run. Find a new case and built the engine with that.

Posted by: 9146986 May 30 2011, 12:37 PM

New cases are fairly cheap compared to what you could get into trying to save one that had that level of failure.

There's usually much more than what meets the eye, but that's just my opinion based on the limited facts.

Posted by: 70_914 May 30 2011, 09:18 PM

Careful! I was attacked for making the same suggestion... overly harsh, apparently.



We need pictures!

Posted by: DBCooper May 31 2011, 04:41 AM

"We need pictures" is right. A lot of strong opinions here about something no one's seen yet. Might be easily weldable, might not, we can't know.

Posted by: 914 shifter May 31 2011, 06:07 AM

post WTB engine in the classifieds section someone will probably give you one

Posted by: r_towle May 31 2011, 06:54 AM

lol, never careful here....

It wont help unless the professional welder is looking that the piece in person.
Anything can be welded back up...its just money.

Rich

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 31 2011, 07:11 AM

I can pretty much guarantee that the "root cause" was the broken valve jamming the piston, breaking the connecting rod. Probably the most common catastrophic failure in T4 engines. Personally, I'd look for another case, because the hole in the top is only the proverbial tip of the iceberg. The inside's gonna look like an angry customer walked through a china shop swinging a baseball bat. As I've said before, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.

The Cap'n

Posted by: DBCooper May 31 2011, 07:24 AM

+1. Not just a case, either. And photos would end any debate pretty quickly.

.

Posted by: rick 918-S May 31 2011, 07:38 AM

The piece of the block didn't just pop out on it's own. Even if you spend $ 500.00 getting the block welded, case halves squared, line bored, registers decked, etc. your going to need crank work, rods, heads, lifters, and cam. Why not just buy a core engine to rebuild? Like the Cp'n say's you can do it but why?