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Posted by: JRust Jun 18 2011, 06:09 PM

Okay so I have 3 wires not hooked up I am not sure about. One is a white wire, One green with red strip & one solid red coming off the coil side of things. I get nothing when I turn the key to start. No click or anything from the starter. I tried using a screwdriver to jumpr the starter. I only get sparks & nothing else from the starter. I am so damn close but I am missing something I bet is simple.

With this being a conversion the wiring is a screwy thing anyway. I appreciatte any things I can try Oh yeah this is for my buick 215 v8

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 18 2011, 07:04 PM

There are two big red wires that usually connect to the battery. On a stock 914 you would see 4 red wires connected to the battery. Two of those go to the alternator, the other two to the dash. One runs to the ignition and the other to the fuse panel. In some installs the two big reds get hooked to the alternator. You would then need a wire from the alternator to the battery. You are missing one of these links. I think. I'm not sure how yours is wired. It looks like you still have a relay board.

Posted by: McMark Jun 18 2011, 07:52 PM

If jumpering the starter doesn't work, the starter is dead, most likely.

The white wire is for the AAR, make sure that one is taped off well.
The green/red wire is for the 'idiot light' or, more technically, oil pressure switch light.
The red wire...

Posted by: JRust Jun 18 2011, 08:45 PM

Is there a way to test a starter on the bench?

Posted by: hot_shoe914 Jun 18 2011, 08:58 PM

Yup, send juice to it and see if it engages.

Posted by: McMark Jun 18 2011, 09:17 PM

Jumper cables. Connect the + to the 8mm stud where the battery cable goes. Hook the - to the case of the starter. Then jumper the + to the spade terminal. Shoot a pic and I'll annotate it if I didn't explain that well.

Posted by: JRust Jun 18 2011, 09:45 PM

No that makes perfect sense. Was just missing a step with the test part on one out of the car. I did get a try & some smoke out of my starter on the car. IT did not turn the motor over.

I am afraid my motor is locked up. Just from sitting. I put some Sea foam down the plug holes. Letting it sit & going to try to break things loose tommorow. Guess my luck working on 914's is holding out huh

Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 18 2011, 10:06 PM

jamie, if the engine was locked up you'd still hear the selonoid engaging. one large red wire from the battery and one smaller red to the post on the starter. yellow to the spade connector next to the stud. is the plug with green, brown and red wires plugged into the relay board in the engine compartment?

k

Posted by: JRust Jun 18 2011, 11:00 PM

Yeah I hooked up to the 2 thicker red wires to the positive battery terminal. Starter still doesn't work with the key. With the key on & jumping the terminal the selonoid did come on but them smoke. Starter definately isn't turning the motor. Tried to move the car in gear to break it free but no luck. Going to work on it a little more tommorow. See if I can get it to break loose. I put some see foam in each spark plug hole. Letting it soak tonight. I'll put some more in tommorow before church. When I get back I will try to get it to break free. This motor was running great when I put it on the stand. It had oil in it too . Such is life

Posted by: JRust Jun 19 2011, 09:26 AM

What do you guys recommend is the best way to break it free. Just jack up one side of the car & get one wheel to twist with a little breaker bar help?

Or hook it behind my rig with the flat tow kit & drop the clutch while moving?

Posted by: McMark Jun 19 2011, 09:33 AM

Good luck... locked engines are sucky. Do you have the spark plugs out? Just to make sure it's not hydrolocked. There is no shortage of dumb/crazy ideas to free it up. Besides the ol' tow-n-clutch-dump, there is the spray starting fluid in whichever cylinder has the valves closed, then install a spark plug and fire it off.

Not saying it's a good idea.

Posted by: messix Jun 19 2011, 10:09 AM

pull the plugs and turn it over with a flywheel tool. it shouldn't have "rusted" it's an aluminum block..... does it iron liners?

Posted by: JRust Jun 19 2011, 12:04 PM

I just had a thought. Amazing in itself i know. I have not taken this starter off yet. Maybe this starter is what is completely locked up. Im going to pull it this afternoon. Im hoping it will just be that starter. Its kind of a pain to get off with the adapter plate

Posted by: Prospectfarms Jun 19 2011, 12:23 PM

Probably not your problem. For the starter gear to behave as a flywheel "lock" would mean both the solenoid and the overrun clutch are out of place and locked. More likely the starter itself is bad. A def. solenoid can actuate the gear ("click") but not engergize the starter motor. Should pull the starter anyway. You can test both theories. Good luck!

Posted by: messix Jun 19 2011, 12:29 PM

it could be. pull it apart, starters are pretty simple, i've had to tear them apart on the trail, in the mud, in a hole, in the cold, soaking wet......

might be as easy as disassemble and freshen the brushes and lube the bushings and clean and lube the bendix.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 19 2011, 05:03 PM

Get a big breaker bar on that crank and break it loose! Strange that your engine would lock up just from sitting. You sure it diddn't drop during your move?

Posted by: computers4kids Jun 19 2011, 08:03 PM

Jamie,
Since you just rebuilt the transmission is it possible something is binding, totally unrelated to the engine itself when you put it back together?

Posted by: messix Jun 19 2011, 08:22 PM

absolutely maybe!

Posted by: JRust Jun 19 2011, 08:28 PM

No that is totally impossible . Like I could screw that up

Okay anything is possible. I am really leaning towards that starter being toast. Not only would explain all the problems I had with it. It is also very fixable. I didn't get to it today. Just enjoyed being a dad & letting the wife & kids wait on me all day . I even took a nap . Pitiful I know & I won't get to do much with it tommorow because of work. I am off the rest of the week & will get to it first thing tuesday morning. Just be a bit of a pain to get the starter off. The nut on top has the ribs on the starter to hold it in place. That is no big deal on a normal motor as you get to the bolt. On my motor that bolt head is on the adapter plate & hidden. Anyone have a trick for getting the nut to come off? Probably just have to pull the tranny with adapter plate to do it. Just means unbolting the rest of the stuff involved . Oh well maybe the sucker will start with a new starter in place? I will make sure to test one on the bench before putting it in though

Posted by: 914Mike Jun 19 2011, 08:43 PM

If the bolt is still metric I would put a head-nut back on, once you get it apart. 15mmATF vs 17mmATF with the same thread, you might have an easier time next time...

Posted by: JRust Jun 20 2011, 10:27 PM

Okay I got the starter off tonight. It wasn't locked up at all . I don't see how it would be my tranny after the rebuild either. I can spin my wheels just fine. Also with it in neutral I can't get the motor to turn with the bolt up front.

So I pulled the plugs & put some more oil Dea Foam penetrating oil down them. Letting it soak & putting more in tommorow morning. Then I'm thinking I'll try the flat tow kit. Tow it & drop the clutch . Which gear would I do it in? 2nd? Or what else might I try before that?

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 10:31 PM

so you bench ran the starter?

try and put it all back together and turn it over with the plugs out.

there are no bolts the can bottom out to the flywheel and lock that up when the tranny and every thing is installed?

Posted by: JRust Jun 20 2011, 10:41 PM

Aren't I better off just leaving the starter out when I try to break it loose. Just one more thing that could cause a problem?

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 10:49 PM

no

it holds the tranny on with 1 of 4 bolts!!!!!

it should not matter if the starter is bolted on unless you can feel that the starter nose cone goes to deep and makes contact with the fly wheel. if does theres yer sign!


i would get it to spin over with breaker bar on the crank with the plugs out then spin it with the starter, then on the starter with the plugs in.

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 10:51 PM

oh! and make sure you've got the battery charged up and run the charger while your spinning it over.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 20 2011, 11:09 PM

If your tranny is the problem and if you flat tow and pop the clutch. you will shread your tranny. Just to be safe, I would unbolt it pull it just far enough away to make sure the main shaft spins. Reach your hand up there and spin it. You wont even have to take off the CV's. If it spins free, put it back and pop the clutch in 3rd gear.

Posted by: JRust Jun 20 2011, 11:16 PM

Doens't the main shaft turn with the diff?

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 11:21 PM

not until you put the tranny in gear

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 11:22 PM

main shaft is top shaft in the case, the final drive is the bottom shaft with the pinion gear on the diff end.

Posted by: JRust Jun 20 2011, 11:23 PM

I've had it in gear with the wheels off the ground. I spin one wheel & the other spins opposite. Does that mean it isn't turning the main shaft even though it is in gear?

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 11:30 PM

it's an open diff, that will happen. you need to make sure the tranny is in neutral and either block a tire or drop one down to the ground and then spin the tire that is in the air.

you might have the gear selector [slider forks out of position and locking the tranny up]

you will have to drain the tranny and remove the shifter selector console and look insiiide and make sure the groove or open spot is in the correct posistion [neutral] and then reinstall the selector.

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 11:31 PM

i'm pm'ing you my number

Posted by: JRust Jun 20 2011, 11:37 PM

So either way I need to remove my tranny. With the tranny off if my motor still won't turn over. Then my rings must have froze to my clylinder wall. If my motor turns then it has to be my tranny causing the problem, In which case I need to drain it & pull the gear selector. In neutral with the shift fork out of it the 3 forks should all line up?

Posted by: messix Jun 20 2011, 11:45 PM

you dont need to pull the tranny to check the shift forks. just the side shift console, where the selector is.

i had trouble when i did mine after i droped the tranny and broke the ear the holds the shift bar bushing and had to put another in.
you can see and move the forks with a screw driver to get them into place. its kinda bitch to put the selctor in with out geting them of of place but it can be done.
you have to shove the shaft up in the console as you snake the console into place

Posted by: computers4kids Jun 21 2011, 12:24 AM

My money is on the tranny, seriously doubt it's your engine Jamie. I wouldn't drop the clutch...you could have a mess on your hands.

Posted by: McMark Jun 21 2011, 01:09 AM

You should have to disconnect the CV joints to pull it back far enough.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 21 2011, 09:00 AM

I know you've heard this from me before, but why don't you throw it on a trailer and bring it down to Mark. He'll have it running in a couple hours...

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jun 21 2011, 10:14 AM

Other than automatic transmission fluid, which I don't think applies, what does "ATF" mean here?

The Cap'n

Posted by: JRust Jun 21 2011, 10:19 AM

Funny rob

Okay so after soaking overnight I used abig breaker bar this morning & got it to move. I bench tested another starter & after finding it good put it in. I still get nothing when I turn my key from the starter . Is that my ignition? With the key on I jump the starter & it turns over. After wondering why it sounded so funny for a second. I remembered I didn't have my spark plugs in it. So got out from under the car & got those back in. Put my wires back on & got back under to jump the starter again. Turned over just fine & sounded pretty normal. A little different getting that sound from under the car as opposed to the driver seat. Anyway my battery had run down. So I put it on the charger & came in to report .Still didn't quite start but I think only because my battery was so low

Posted by: mharmon Jun 21 2011, 12:10 PM

ATF = across the flats

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 21 2011, 01:01 PM

Great progress! Ignition key guts gone bad?

Posted by: messix Jun 21 2011, 01:03 PM

trouble shoot from the ignition switch to the starter. use the wiring diagram and check at the connections [like at the 11pin and 9 pin of the old relay board] could be a bad switch.

Posted by: JRust Jun 21 2011, 02:54 PM

It's Alive! The one red wire I couldn't figure where it went. Light bulb went on & I tried connecting it to the starter. Boom she fired right up with the key. Bled the brakes & now just have to burp the radiator

Posted by: Prospectfarms Jun 21 2011, 02:59 PM

Wow.

Congratulations.

Posted by: KELTY360 Jun 21 2011, 03:48 PM

Nice! I just had that feeling myself.....you know, the one where you're baffled and you go through all these radical solutions in your brain, talk to your friends and then the light bulb turns on and you slap your forehead and wonder why you didn't see the easy answer days ago

See you Thursday Jamie.

Posted by: McMark Jun 21 2011, 03:55 PM

Sweet!

Posted by: mstein95 Jun 21 2011, 04:08 PM

Nice work Jamie!!!

Posted by: JRust Jun 21 2011, 05:23 PM

Took a spin to the local tire store. Getting new rubber but nothing spectacular. Got here &they was leaking water. Some idiot forgot to put the rad cap back on
Luckily being genius I am I fixed it

Posted by: messix Jun 21 2011, 07:14 PM

dumbass!!!

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 21 2011, 07:36 PM

Awesome! wish I was there!

Posted by: JRust Jun 21 2011, 07:44 PM

Yeah I went down to get some tires. Car heated up pretty quick. I've got a leak I've got to find. Also what I thought was the right front brake grabbing. Turned out to be the 15x7 cookie cutter rim rubbing on the bottom strut. I guess my later carrera front suspension only wants to take a 16" wheel. Looks like I won't be bringing the v8 unless I can find some spacers. I have some 16" phone dials but the offset is late which means I need 2- 1" spacers & 2- 1.5" spacers. Or another set of 16" 5-lug wheels

Posted by: McMark Jun 21 2011, 09:04 PM

I just sold my last set of relatively thin spacers. Otherwise I would bring a set for you.

Posted by: Britain Smith Jun 21 2011, 09:21 PM

You can get universal spacers at Napa...they work just fine.

-Britain

Posted by: McMark Jun 21 2011, 10:28 PM

Cooooool! Problem solved!

https://napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?A=BK_7354955_0006393317&An=0

Posted by: JRust Jun 21 2011, 11:04 PM

That 1/4" will be enough to get it to clear?

Posted by: JRust Jun 22 2011, 08:29 AM

I've got to pull my water pump off this morning. I have a steady leak from the bottom of it. Right at one particular bolt. Tried to tighten but seems to be stripped . So I've got to pull it out & see whats up. Hopefully it is just another gasket. Maybe a good cleanup of threads with a new bolt will be okay. May need to do a larger bolt. I'll use some thread locker on it too. Is this typically done with a gasket or RTV?

Posted by: McMark Jun 22 2011, 09:08 AM

RTV is pretty common for water pumps. Some don't even come with gaskets.

Posted by: JRust Jun 22 2011, 02:50 PM

Got my water pump reinstalled & all the hoses connected again. I've got to tighten a couple clamps. Then burp the system. I ordered some 1/4 spacers at napa but they won't be here until morning. Which means holding off on doing tires. I may not get out of here as early as I had hoped in the morning. Still isn't a lock I will bring the v8. Especially since I won't be able to test drive it until I get the spacers.

Yesterday when it heated up on me I noticed my radiator fans weren't coming on. Supposed to come on at 190. I picked up a switch. I am going to hardwire at least one of the fans. I'll have the switch in the cab & just turn it on when it get's warm. Just hoping for no more leaks

Posted by: proto31 Jun 22 2011, 04:34 PM

Wow, this thread is inspiring! Really hope the trip to WCR is a blast

Dan

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jun 22 2011, 06:30 PM

The suspense is killing me... You can't bring the V8. Then you can. Then oh oh now you can't! The last time I saw it was in Issaquah and it kind of ummm leaked a bit. Hope to see you (and the car) in Medford. Have a safe trip.
Cheers Elliot

Posted by: JRust Jun 22 2011, 07:15 PM

Damn if I remembered you being so funny Elliot .

Yeah I am still not sure. I will probably bring it down. It is running & will be okay for some autoX. Not sure I will trust it for the Saturday drive. I also still have quite a bit to get done on it before I bring it. Stinking water pump still was leaking. Found a hole on the bottom of it that must have had a plug in it before. That was what was leaking on the bolt I thought was the culprit. It was hiding above it & I missed it. Anyway I am trying to find just the right screw or bolt to go in. It's an odd size so who knows. Plus I am waiting on those spacers from Napa. Hoping there morning shipment gets in plenty early

Posted by: messix Jun 22 2011, 08:37 PM

the hole where the water is leaking from is not on the underside of the shaft is it? that would be the weep hole and that would mean that the shaft seal is buggered and you need a new pump.

if it's on the pump to block surface you need to use sealant on the bolt threads, some of the bolts go through to the water jacket and will leak out through the bolt in not sealed.

Posted by: JRust Jun 22 2011, 09:16 PM

Awesome then I need a new pump
I do have one on a spare motor but know nothing about it.
I will pull it tonight & see how it feels. Sucks though