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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Fuel delivery system poll
Posted by: rwilner Jul 15 2011, 08:02 AM
It's not news to anyone here: stock FI parts wear out and are becoming harder to find, which means maintaining the stock FI system in a reliable and well-operating condition is becoming challenging and expensive.
This is not meant to be a debate on which is the best because that's purely a personal decision based on many factors...I'm just wondering what people are running.
Feel free to add in why you're running what you're running in this thread. I personally am converting from stock FI to megasquirt this winter because
- It's cheaper than refurbishing my ailing stock FI system
- Replacement parts will be readily available for the next 20 years
- The system is more flexible and will more easily support a larger motor when I have the funds and time
- It seems like a wicked fun project
Posted by: Philip W. Jul 15 2011, 08:16 AM
It's not news to anyone here: stock FI parts wear out and are becoming harder to find, which means maintaining the stock FI system in a reliable and well-operating condition is becoming challenging and expensive.
This is not meant to be a debate on which is the best because that's purely a personal decision based on many factors...I'm just wondering what people are running.
Feel free to add in why you're running what you're running in this thread. I personally am converting from stock FI to megasquirt this winter because
- It's cheaper than refurbishing my ailing stock FI system
- Replacement parts will be readily available for the next 20 years
- The system is more flexible and will more easily support a larger motor when I have the funds and time
- It seems like a wicked fun project
just replaced a bunch of stuff on my stock D-jet 2.0, seals MPS, etc etc - still looking for an AAR (correct aar that will close), but- have been researching the other injection programs and . IF i gave up on the d-jet, i would right now probably lean toward the CB performance injection system.
its about 1800$ turn key- a lttle more than carbs but new computer etc and since im not rebuilding the engine , staying with stock cam etc, probably best option
- if i were rebuilding, i would go 2270 raby-style with new cam and Dual Dells
- maybe on the next one-
PJW.
Posted by: eric9144 Jul 15 2011, 08:48 AM
Same as Dr Phil...just replaced all vacuum lines and went through my FI, it's all running strong but I do see the impending replacement parts 'crisis' on the horizon...
I'd be interested in seeing how the CB, RedlineWebber or megasquirt injection solutions work on a stock 2.0...
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 15 2011, 09:04 AM
No poll choice for MFI, so put me down as 'other' ...
Posted by: flipb Jul 15 2011, 09:56 AM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101325&hl=
Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 15 2011, 09:57 AM
Running stock fuel injection is well worth the effort to source good parts. I answered that I am running aftermarket because a Raby Kit 2432 will not run on stock EFI 
Posted by: Eddie914 Jul 15 2011, 11:04 AM
I purchased my Teener as six conversion with a 2.7 and 40mm Webers. When the 2.7 went KABLAMOO I purchased a 3.2 from a wrecked '86 911. I was hoping to get the engine complete with fuel injection, but the intake, shroud and fan had already been sold by the time I got there.
I would have preferred having the Motronic injection, but it was easier (and cheaper) to just swap over the Webers from the 2.7.
Since my car is primarily a track car the Webers run pretty good as long the fuel is kept water free (in humid Seattle this is a never ending task).
I love the look and sound of the Webers ... period correct.
Cheers,
Eddie
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 15 2011, 11:14 AM
Running stock fuel injection is well worth the effort to source good parts.
However - MFI _is_ the stock fuel injection on my engine ;-)
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jul 15 2011, 11:38 AM
44idf Webers on a 2.2 liter type IV. 147 HP on the Dyno and about 24 MPG. I kinda like the noise it makes at WOT.
Posted by: r_towle Jul 15 2011, 11:39 AM
- It's cheaper than refurbishing my ailing stock FI system
- Replacement parts will be readily available for the next 20 years
- The system is more flexible and will more easily support a larger motor when I have the funds and time
- It seems like a wicked fun project
- I am a techie engineering geek
I fixed it for you
Posted by: big wil Jul 15 2011, 11:42 AM
Running stock fuel injection is well worth the effort to source good parts.
However - MFI _is_ the stock fuel injection on my engine ;-)in the process of swapping to a single weber for the shear fact of the simplicity of maintaining and replacement parts availabilty....
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jul 15 2011, 11:51 AM
Running stock fuel injection is well worth the effort to source good parts.
However - MFI _is_ the stock fuel injection on my engine ;-)in the process of swapping to a single weber for the shear fact of the simplicity of maintaining and replacement parts availabilty....
Save up a little to buy a second Weber. A single doesn't work so great. Two of them work REALLY great.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 15 2011, 11:53 AM
I am staying with the stock Djet as it runs really well with a 2056 engine...got spare parts laying around too..
Pretty cheap to maintain too as I do nothing 
Switching to Mega puke was an option until Dave Hunt proved it sucked and he blew up two motors running it.
I would run something more modern and programable like haltech....if I had the coin.
Good money always follows cheap...sometimes lots of money. (See Dave Hunt)
Single carbs suck on a 914, Bus, 411 anything that is type 4 powered. Dual carbs at least run well.
Posted by: rwilner Jul 15 2011, 12:00 PM
Switching to Mega puke was an option until Dave Hunt proved it sucked and he blew up two motors running it.
hopefully I can avoid that!
Posted by: rwilner Jul 15 2011, 12:01 PM
- It's cheaper than refurbishing my ailing stock FI system
- Replacement parts will be readily available for the next 20 years
- The system is more flexible and will more easily support a larger motor when I have the funds and time
- It seems like a wicked fun project
- I am a techie engineering geek
I fixed it for you
ha
Posted by: rwilner Jul 15 2011, 12:16 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101325&hl=
Each poll is somewhat of a snapshot in time (people can always dig up and vote on old threads). It will be interesting to see the trend over time...
Posted by: Tom_T Jul 15 2011, 01:12 PM
I'll be restoring my 73 2L D-jet as its stock EFI.
It sounds like your plan for Mega-squirt/etc. on a TBD future big bore/stroke T-4 & saving the D-jet intact is a good plan for what you want to do.
I too had considered "cold storing" the entire numbers matching 2.0/EFI in mine, and using a substitute 2.0 to do a Raby 2270 or similar with "modern" EFI & pointless ignition. ... although the ignition is never "pointless" in a gasoline engine!
Posted by: 914Mels Jul 15 2011, 01:37 PM
In this segment of our 914's life it's got the stock EFI. We've been through dual webers and a single center mount weber. The injection is by far the most accurate supply system and with repair info widely available, fixable if it breaks down. We did get rid of the oil bath air cleaner though.
Posted by: jcd914 Jul 15 2011, 04:38 PM
I picked stock FI becuase it currently works, engine runs well, has good drivability and it is not really that hard to fix if you go systematically thru the system. When you start skipping over the basics and try to shortcut the solution you can get in deep fast and make it hard and expensive.
That said, I would like to build a MS fuel and ignition system using individual throttle bodies and coil packs, for the fun and challenge of it.
Jim
PS: Technically I am not running anything. Rob is running my engine with stock FI until he gets his Raby engine with aftermarkey FI installed.
Posted by: ewdysar Jul 15 2011, 05:33 PM
So my vote of "other" may not be valid. I'm swapping out the 4 barrel Holley on my 327 in my 914 to a Mass-Flo MAF fuel injection. It's not programmable, because it doesn't need it. Like most modern production EFI, it controls the ignition and injectors based on the air mass and O2 sensors to constantly tune the system. New cam? New heads or manifold? As long as you don't exceed the flow capacity of the injector itself (mine are good to 400+ hp) you can make all the changes you want and the system will self compensate. No mapping, no blowing up the motor from a lean spot in the programming.
Has anyone looked into adapting a MAF injection system to the 914 engines? It seems like a good direction to go in...
Posted by: RJMII Jul 15 2011, 09:00 PM
- It's cheaper than refurbishing my ailing stock FI system
- Replacement parts will be readily available for the next 20 years
- The system is more flexible and will more easily support a larger motor when I have the funds and time
- It seems like a wicked fun project
- I am a techie engineering geek
I fixed it for you
I'm using MS-II at the moment (will be upgrading to MS-III at some point)
my stock fuel injection went bye bye with the stock engine.
the stock fuel injection for the engine in there (the VR-4 Twin turbo) was the same $$ as going MS.
I have the larger motor now, and was glad that I went MS, it moved over to the new engine much easier when I switched from the 2.5 single turbo v6 to the 3.0 twin tubo.
it has certainly been a wicked fun project.
Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 15 2011, 09:16 PM
Haltech Sprint
Wideband O2 module
Wankel Turbolader
The stock FI is nice but I would never use it. Programmable EFI is soooo much better. Better preformance. Better fuel economy. Better tuning support. Parts easy to find.
Posted by: anderssj Jul 16 2011, 07:45 AM
Currently running dual Dell's (DRLA40s) on a rebuilt 2.0L When I bought the engine back in 1981, the injection system was gone, so built it from the start with carbs in mind.
Just got the carbs back from ACE in Utah (Dave did a great job on the rebuild). Looks like there are going to be some problems getting carb parts in the future too--it's already tough to find new floats.
Best,
Steve A-
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 17 2011, 10:26 PM
Running stock fuel injection is well worth the effort to source good parts.
However - MFI _is_ the stock fuel injection on my engine ;-)in the process of swapping to a single weber for the shear fact of the simplicity of maintaining and replacement parts availabilty....
Save up a little to buy a second Weber. A single doesn't work so great. Two of them work REALLY great.
I would't go OP except to prevent a fellow board member from wasting $300.
Single carbs, progressive or not, can't work adequately on 914 because there is no means of getting exhaust heat up to the intake, and the manifold is pretty "long.". Without heat, the expanding mixture cools and the manifold tubes become a condenser. It's really hard to adjust a carburetor when the mix it's supposed to produce is de-carburized before it enters combustion.
I have stock d-jet FI and am surprised how well it works given all the 40 year old stuff it uses. I'm also troubled and irritated that many critical components are obsolete.
Dual carbs sit closer to the head. More heat, less distance for the A/F mix to travel.
No doubt someone has done it with "no problems" but theres no way to get around the physics and that means the odds of such a set up working properly are poor.
Posted by: dion9146 Jul 18 2011, 05:44 PM
Stock motronic. 
Posted by: MrLeeS Jul 18 2011, 06:09 PM
cB quick tune. So far so good. Could use a bit more programming ability, but it is ver simple to install and get going, and you can't beat the price. If you want to go fancier in the future you have the tb
Posted by: wndsrfr Aug 1 2011, 06:50 PM
SDS injection and ignition. Bought the car with the system on it it's a 2316 Raby kit engine with big CB TB's & Tangerine header/evo muffler--really breathes well....switched to TP sensing from MAP sensing and am really happy with it. Nice feature is closed loop which can be disabled for track days. Had a great learning curve with the car on the dyno & then on track, still tweaking a bit...
Posted by: JawjaPorsche Aug 1 2011, 07:02 PM
I thought at one time I want to get rid of my FI but I am glad I didn't. Everyone has their own preference. I love my stock FI but I love the look of dual carbs!
Posted by: p914 Aug 2 2011, 11:14 AM
After I had the 2.0 rebuilt to 2.7 and I learned how to adjust fuel mixtures at different temps and conditions, the SDS has been a solid performer. Now I have a better idea of what to tune if I have an issue and it's easy to do with the control unit. Mine has a wide band O2 sensor and the closed loop is a nice feature as others have said.
I was particularly happy when I figured out how to tune out the warm start issues when the engine would die out or rough idle when restarting when warm. It's all in the mixtures. 
Posted by: Ductech Aug 2 2011, 01:18 PM
Currently running Megasquirt 1 controlling fuel. stock 91 subaru legacy auto 4wd ecu in automatic mode. Will be upgrading to megasquirt 2 ecu soon thanks to the good Dnhunt. Megasquirt is not for the weak of heart or motivation. Its a Wire & Pray kinda setup where you have to read like your back in college, you build circuits to suit it to your application. I had to build an inverting op amp circuit to install my megasquirt in line with my subaru ecu cause the tps signal was inverted. SO I inverted the signal coming into the squirt presto! That took two days to figure out and get working alright.
Then build a circuit to get a happy signal to the tach. Right now I'm working on a sequential shift light setup built into a stock tach, it goes on and on, if you can dream it someone probably already did it with a megasquirt. The squirt for the most part is only as good as you can build your aux circuits that will be needed, install the squirt, and use and get used to the idiosyncracys of an open source FI computer, Its not perfect and you will have some issue's I promise. There rant over.... I did it cause I couldn't find a cheap ass method of making my motor not run like it wanted to explode thanks to the open exhaust and intake setup. SDS and others like haltech sound great if you have the coin to play with well supported ecus that have someone you can call when you get stuck.
There thats my .02 how willing are you to 
Posted by: SCV Sep 25 2011, 08:49 AM
Stock FI is my current fuel delivery system of choice because it is relatively simple compared to modern FI, allows the stock-cammed engine to generate more power and torque (better driveability), provides better fuel economy for a stock engine, and it works well enough. There is room for improvement, though, and I'm considering available options for the future, when the stock engine will be replaced with something more powerful that will exceed the capabilities of stock FI. The tinkerer in me loves carburetors, despite their sometimes glaring shortcomings, but my practical side likes the idea of being able to just get in and drive.
For example, when properly tuned/configured, modern FI allows the user to make elevation changes that would leave a carbureted engine sputtering and unhappy, where a FI equipped engine wouldn't miss a beat. (Ex: Trail Ridge Road in Rocky Mountain National Park 
) Carbs are easy to tune once one understands the theory of their operation, but it take more effort overall to make carbs run well than it does to set up FI. Increased fuel economy is just a bonus, as far as I'm concerned. Besides, the 36 DRLAs on my Type 1 satisfy any tinkering urges, when applicable. At this point, I'm leaning towards SDS FI or equivalent for the new engine.
-S
Posted by: somd914 Sep 25 2011, 07:48 PM
Voted stock FI, but have dual Webers in hand for the engine build - at that point D-Jet won't be an option. Even to keep a stock engine, I fear D-Jet will become more difficult to support as time moves on and would force a move to an aftermarket solution at some point.
Posted by: rwilner Sep 25 2011, 07:52 PM
just thought i'd update, I'm about halfway through my MS conversion (using McMark's design). Started a bit early because I got the parts and just couldn't wait.
i'm taking pictures and will put the install in a separate thread.
Posted by: r_towle Sep 27 2011, 06:14 PM
is it programmable?
Can you tune it..... if say you decided that some day you might supercharge or turbo charge your car?
Rich
Posted by: Prospectfarms Sep 27 2011, 09:22 PM
Stock FI is my current fuel delivery system of choice because it is relatively simple compared to modern FI, allows the stock-cammed engine to generate more power and torque (better driveability), provides better fuel economy for a stock engine, and it works well enough. There is room for improvement, though, and I'm considering available options for the future, when the stock engine will be replaced with something more powerful that will exceed the capabilities of stock FI. The tinkerer in me loves carburetors, despite their sometimes glaring shortcomings, but my practical side likes the idea of being able to just get in and drive.
For example, when properly tuned/configured, modern FI allows the user to make elevation changes that would leave a carbureted engine sputtering and unhappy, where a FI equipped engine wouldn't miss a beat. (Ex: Trail Ridge Road in Rocky Mountain National Park
) Carbs are easy to tune once one understands the theory of their operation, but it take more effort overall to make carbs run well than it does to set up FI. Increased fuel economy is just a bonus, as far as I'm concerned. Besides, the 36 DRLAs on my Type 1 satisfy any tinkering urges, when applicable. At this point, I'm leaning towards SDS FI or equivalent for the new engine.-S
That was well said. I think carburetors are neat, and until less than a year ago they were the only fuel system I would work on. But the carburetors that are readily adaptable to type IV engines are just not very efficient and modern gas wreaks havoc on all carburetors. Gaining expertise on the jetronic system is part of the fun and something that will keep me entertained for a while.
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Sep 28 2011, 09:36 AM
...because my dual carb'd 2.4 snapped in half and Ziggy's 2056 d-jet was on teh floor collecting dust
Posted by: rwilner Sep 28 2011, 09:37 AM
is it programmable?
Can you tune it..... if say you decided that some day you might supercharge or turbo charge your car?
Rich
Rich,
It is programmable and should scale from stock to as big as you want, assuming the instrumentation and sensors are correct for the application.
Check out my install thread
Posted by: mark21742 Oct 23 2011, 08:23 AM
Does a Honda drivetrain with a turbo and basicly stock Honda fuel injection count as aftermarket?
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