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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Finally driving again!
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 17 2011, 09:39 PM
I finally got to drive my 914 again! 
Back in June I was having fits with the L-Jet system that was on my car so I decided it was time to tackle a project I was wanting to do for some time, a CIS conversion.
I retrofitted a CIS Basic system to my stock 1.8L engine using parts from various VWs and Mercedes and today I fired it up for the first time and was able to take it for a long drive. It felt AWESOME. Smooth reliable power all the way to redline. It has a nice growl to it too. 
I'm quite impressed. I still have to make some small adjustments but at least now I can get back to driving the car daily and the best part, NO MORE JACKSTANDS! I'm going to drive the snot out of the car this week to get the system dialed in and hopefully next weekend I will take it for a day drive in the mountains. 
More details and pics to come later.
The cat is happy too!
Posted by: rick 918-S Jul 17 2011, 09:43 PM
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
I always thought CIS off a VW Rabbit would work nicely. Post lots of details! 
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 17 2011, 09:47 PM
Great idea and congratulations. I'll bet a lot of folks will be interested in hearing about what you did.
Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 17 2011, 10:30 PM
Were's all the pictures from the build?
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jul 18 2011, 06:07 AM
Information please!
Zach
Posted by: ripper911 Jul 18 2011, 06:24 AM
Smokey wants more pictures!
Here kitty kitty.
Posted by: BKLA Jul 18 2011, 08:11 AM
CIS ='CALICO IS SLEEPING' ???
Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2011, 08:39 AM
CIS works great on TIV engines.. I had the set up on my Grey shop Bus 10 years ago along with a stroked TIV.. The torque was phenomenal and so was the MPG.. The simplicity of the system is what I appreciated most.
I didn't touch it for 7 solid years.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 18 2011, 08:51 AM
CIS? Would that be "Cat In Situ"?
The Cap'n, typing with a cat on my shoulder.
Posted by: rwilner Jul 18 2011, 08:57 AM
you guys are nuts...I don't let the cats on my cars because they scratch the sh$t out of the paint!
Easy to train them. Just wait till they're settled in on the hood and fire it up!
Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jul 18 2011, 01:05 PM
I am working on the same thing except from what Rick suggested, from a Rabbit. Actually, Someone else is working on it (already installed one on his son's Teener) to teach me how to do it. I absolutlely love what he did.
Posted by: ripper911 Jul 18 2011, 01:09 PM
you guys are nuts...I don't let the cats on my cars because they scratch the sh$t out of the paint!
Easy to train them. Just wait till they're settled in on the hood and fire it up!
You should see the top on my 1973 911 targa, they love that soft top for sleeping and clawing.
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 18 2011, 09:27 PM
Okay here is a break down of everything I used.
Fuel distributor – VW Rabbit
Warm up Regulator- VW Rabbit
Fuel lines-Audi
Fuel Injectors-Audi
Fuel Pump, Filter, and Accumulator – Mercedes 300 class
And assorted flexible hoses and fittings from various German cars
I used stuff that was readily available at the local junkyard and I spent less than $150 putting this system together. The easiest route though would have been to just get everything off a VW rabbit and be done with it but the junkyard didn't have a complete Rabbit at the time.
The pictures show my initial installation of everything. I’ll clean up some of my workings now that I know the system works to my liking. The airbox/ fuel distributor is simply bolted to the intake runners, the warm up regulator is mounted to the firewall, and the Mercedes fuel pump assembly is mounted on the firewall under the engine. 
Sorry for the crappy pics... 
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 18 2011, 09:29 PM
For the injectors I had to fab up some brackets and spacers so that they sit at the correct depth. 
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 18 2011, 09:32 PM
And finally since I was completely new to anything CIS, this book was a great reference! 
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 18 2011, 09:36 PM
Oh and the cat is 18 years old and a HUGE 914 fan
Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jul 18 2011, 09:44 PM
One of these Volvo 240 Aluminum Air Box Tray's would probably fit in there a little better than the Plastic box.
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 18 2011, 09:47 PM
Yeah I need to do something about that. I had to remove the rain tray just so it would fit. I was thinking about fabbing up a new box. I'll have to look into the Volvo tray though.
Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jul 18 2011, 09:53 PM
Jeffs914/6 was or is installing CIS on his 3.0.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=113796&hl=
Posted by: ThinAir Jul 18 2011, 10:37 PM
I was drooling over Dan & Jeff Dixon's CIS setup on Dan's Type IV at WCR and asked for detailed info. Jeff sent me this great site http://www.ferrari400parts.com/page3.php. The is a lot of documentation there.
Volvo 1800s also used this system and I've found some info by searching for it.
This is definitely something that is in my future since I've got my own 914, my son's 914 and my other son's VW Bus to think about. It certainly looks superior to anything VW/Porsche ever put on a Type IV!
Are there particular years of Rabbits that you want to find for this?
Thanks for all the photos!
Posted by: dflesburg Jul 19 2011, 07:28 AM
whats with the long pipe on the air box?
Why didnt you just put a k&n cone on there instead of the pipe?
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 19 2011, 08:30 AM
Volvo 1800s also used this system and I've found some info by searching for it.
This is definitely something that is in my future since I've got my own 914, my son's 914 and my other son's VW Bus to think about. It certainly looks superior to anything VW/Porsche ever put on a Type IV!
Are there particular years of Rabbits that you want to find for this?
Link saved! Thanks! The Rabbit I got my stuff off of was a '77. I chose to go with a K-Jet Basic setup (no electronics/ O2 sensor) but I don't know all the specific years or models it came on.
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 19 2011, 08:33 AM
Why didnt you just put a k&n cone on there instead of the pipe?
The pipe goes from the Fuel Distributor/Airbox to the stock 1.8L throttle body. Fresh air gets sucked up from under the airbox.
Posted by: scotty b Jul 19 2011, 01:15 PM
I would think CIS would also be great as the basic system should do well with minor engine mods ( cam ) and even small displacement changes ( 2056 ) 
I too am considering this setup. I've had a couple 924's and my dad had several rabbits when I was young. CIS is stupid simple and brilliantly effective
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 19 2011, 01:29 PM
It's "basically" a mass-flow system so displacement and altitude correction are built in, up to the excursion limits on the flapper.
However, like D-jet, it hates intake reversion and needs a mild cam with not a lot of overlap. Pulses in the intake drive the flapper batty...
Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 19 2011, 03:55 PM
There has been proof that CIS actually does fine with radical cams....I need to find where that was. I am putting CIS on my tweaked out corvair engine in the bus Already have it in the 914 on the 2.7 (stock).
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 19 2011, 04:37 PM
There has been proof that CIS actually does fine with radical cams...
Porsche ran CIS on the 934's because the FIA made 'em do it, and they ran just fine, but not with as much power as the Kugelfisher injection they could run in Group 5. They certainly didn't have 'street-car idle' either. I suspect they gave up a lot in fuel economy at idle and part-throttle - but no one much cares about those in a race car.
this being the bus that weighs half as much as my 5,6-liter Titan but gets just as good mileage?
Never did I say it couldn't be made to work. As Scotty says, it's a dirt-simple mechanical injection system, but it does have a few fundamental underlying principles, chief of which is that the instantaneous position of the metering plate is proportional to the fuel requirement at that moment. If the plate is fluttering (and it does have some hydraulic damping to it) that principle isn't true. 6-cylinder engines have pretty much continuous intake flow - 4's are a little choppier by their very nature. And yes, I ran a Techtonics 268º cam in the ur-GTI and it ran great. That was generally accepted as radical as you'd like in an emissions-rated street engine - and I think it might have given the cat a workout if I'd still had one...
Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 19 2011, 06:04 PM
There has been proof that CIS actually does fine with radical cams...
Porsche ran CIS on the 934's because the FIA made 'em do it, and they ran just fine, but not with as much power as the Kugelfisher injection they could run in Group 5. They certainly didn't have 'street-car idle' either. I suspect they gave up a lot in fuel economy at idle and part-throttle - but no one much cares about those in a race car.
this being the bus that weighs half as much as my 5,6-liter Titan but gets just as good mileage?
Never did I say it couldn't be made to work. As Scotty says, it's a dirt-simple mechanical injection system, but it does have a few fundamental underlying principles, chief of which is that the instantaneous position of the metering plate is proportional to the fuel requirement at that moment. If the plate is fluttering (and it does have some hydraulic damping to it) that principle isn't true. 6-cylinder engines have pretty much continuous intake flow - 4's are a little choppier by their very nature. And yes, I ran a Techtonics 268º cam in the ur-GTI and it ran great. That was generally accepted as radical as you'd like in an emissions-rated street engine - and I think it might have given the cat a workout if I'd still had one...
Um, the bus comment was separated from the radical cam comment for a reason. They are not related. So, no need to argue
The bis was related to the topic of adaptation, the cam remark was related to the concept that there is more cam variability available with CIS than more people think 
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 19 2011, 07:19 PM
...So, no need to argue
...
I agree. So you don't need to argue ;-) ...
But it is something to be aware, especially if you're looking for efficiency (i.e. mileage) or need to be concerned about emissions (some do...). Overlap is the killer. I don't recall all the specs for the Techtonics 268º cam, other tha the signature duration. For 911's the sweet spot is somewhere between the '75 'S' cam and the 964 cam.
But the reality is that it's way easier to change cams in a 911 or Rabbit than a T-IV. I just want people to do their homework, think about what they're doing, and make an informed choice. CIS is a thing of beauty in its ability to provide efficient, smooth idle, broad smooth power band, and decent top end - with a minimum of constant tinkering. I used to go from 6000' to sea level twice a year in a 10,3:1 engine with no other attention paid than running premium gas at sea level - which was pretty much necessary only because I ran so much spark advance at altitude.
If you go in thinking you can run any cam you like because the CIS will adapt, you will probably be faced with driveabilty issues. Just look at the changes Porsche made between the last of the carb/MFI cars to the CIS cars. To be sure, a lot of those were driven by emissions requirements, especially in a leaded-gas no-cat environment.
Posted by: TargaToy Jul 19 2011, 08:10 PM
Ok, Jake says it's a good system. He's the man who's done the testing.
Will this system let a 2056 make the kind of power that one with carbs would? What I'm getting at is that I often read a 2056 with D-Jet will be limited to 100-115 hp whereas a carbed motor can make 130.
I like the thought of injection AND the bigger power.
Posted by: scotty b Jul 19 2011, 08:11 PM
Ok, Jake says it's a good system. He's the man who's done the testing.
Will this system let a 2056 make the kind of power that one with carbs would? What I'm getting at is that I often read a 2056 with D-Jet will be limited to 100-115 hp whereas a carbed motor can make 130.
I like the thought of injection AND the bigger power.
and IMHO yes. But Jake would cetainly know better than I
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jul 19 2011, 08:28 PM
I have thought about CIS for my 2056, but have held back as I think my cam is too aggressive for it. I'd love to find otherwise.
Zach
Posted by: scotty b Jul 19 2011, 08:33 PM
I have thought about CIS for my 2056, but have held back as I think my cam is too aggressive for it. I'd love to find otherwise.
Zach
Me thinks snot. CIS works on a basic principal. Throttle ( airflow) opens plate , position of plate increases fuel flow via plunger. Therefore the mid range cam you have MAY require a sight adjustment, but would not cause any real issue
Posted by: TargaToy Jul 19 2011, 08:43 PM
Is this hard to integrate with a stock ECU? What are the drawbacks, if any?
Posted by: dlee6204 Jul 19 2011, 09:21 PM
I just thought I would post some links that I found helpful before I started down this road...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=114309
http://members.rennlist.com/evill/ed1.htm
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=417142&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=ff5cdef039cb981bac9d130f4f1aa114
http://www.stits.org/DMCVEGAS%20DMC%20Archives/archive/Misc./General%20Automotive/CIS%20Thing.pdf
http://www.aircooledtech.com/CIS_injection/
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=309085&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cis&start=0
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 19 2011, 09:31 PM
I'm not sure how that system would interface with an ECU:
"K-jetronic is a mechanical continuous fuel injection system which does not require any form of drive whatsoever." "K-jetronic: a fuel injection system from Bosch"
Its not simple -- rather mechanically complex, but it is modular and not electronic so in that way it might be simpler to work on:
Here's a picture of the air flow sensor that controls fuel:
Here's a diagram describing how it enriches the mix when you stomp on the gas:
I'm not qualified to comment on how a high duration camshaft might affect the operation of the sensor, but it is clear that strong pulsations in manifold air flow might. I thought that valve overlap acted to mitigate exhaust gas resonance, permitting more fuel to enter the combustion chamber? In the Bosch K-jet material they mention overlap as an important part of their performance/economy/emissions strategy.
I want to know what those who have actually worked on it (K-jet system) feel about the durability of all those the mechanical movements over 25-30 years. Are the necessary components obsolete? Are used parts reliable?
One thing I found very interesting in my research is that later K-jet usedan overlay electronic feedback loop with a lambda sensor.
Thanks to Thinair for providing the informative links.
Posted by: jcd914 Jul 20 2011, 01:47 AM
I can't speak to the overlap limits with CIS (K-jet) but I spent a number of years working 5 days a week on cars with CIS FI.
The system as a whole was relatively trouble free. The common issues were typical of most FI problems, vacuum leaks, injectors wear or get dirty, fuel pumps fail, fuel pump relays fail and of course vacuum leaks.
Also there seemed to be a number of techs that would "adjust" the pressures to improve something (drivability, performance, mileage, etc...), this was usually a huge disaster that cost a lot to fix. Fuel pressures are used throughout the system to control everything and they all have to work together.
Fuel contamination (water/rust or dirt in the fuel) could be a huge problem and required replacement of most components that had fuel going thru them. We had quite a few cases of fuel contamination in the late 70's early 80's but after gas stations started paying some big repair bills there seemed to be a big drop in contamination cases.
It was just a few years ago I sold my last Audi quattro with CIS and it worked fine with an unknown number of miles. It had 190K miles when I bought it and the speedo cable was broke, after I fix the speedo cable I found the odometer only counted miles sometime. I drove it 7 years after that and only replaced a fuel pump relay and an ignition module, well those were the only parts related the engine running at least.
Used parts seem to be available but watch out for dirty parts.
Jim
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 20 2011, 06:56 AM
Thanks Jim, I value your "narrative of experience." I take that the major cans/components are not normally serviceable and the typical cause of failure is contamination of some sort.
I can't speak to the overlap limits with CIS (K-jet) but I spent a number of years working 5 days a week on cars with CIS FI.
The system as a whole was relatively trouble free. The common issues were typical of most FI problems, vacuum leaks, injectors wear or get dirty, fuel pumps fail, fuel pump relays fail and of course vacuum leaks.
Also there seemed to be a number of techs that would "adjust" the pressures to improve something (drivability, performance, mileage, etc...), this was usually a huge disaster that cost a lot to fix. Fuel pressures are used throughout the system to control everything and they all have to work together.
Fuel contamination (water/rust or dirt in the fuel) could be a huge problem and required replacement of most components that had fuel going thru them. We had quite a few cases of fuel contamination in the late 70's early 80's but after gas stations started paying some big repair bills there seemed to be a big drop in contamination cases.
It was just a few years ago I sold my last Audi quattro with CIS and it worked fine with an unknown number of miles. It had 190K miles when I bought it and the speedo cable was broke, after I fix the speedo cable I found the odometer only counted miles sometime. I drove it 7 years after that and only replaced a fuel pump relay and an ignition module, well those were the only parts related the engine running at least.
Used parts seem to be available but watch out for dirty parts.
Jim
Posted by: Rex-n-effect Jul 20 2011, 08:51 AM
My 81 Scirocco, daily driver, has 417,000 miles on it and i have never had a problem with the FI system. I would think that qualifies for dependability.
The later CIS did use a fequency valve (lambda control) system that you can still use. Need to set it to 50 pulses or minimum to negate the 02 sensor but still it would work without the 02.
I had been thinking of doing this also as the system is trouble free and i have access to about 50 of the cars for parts. This thread was just what i needed.
Rex
Posted by: Rex-n-effect Jul 20 2011, 09:01 AM
I have to take that back. I had to replace the Lambda relay a couple of years ago. Damn FI anyway.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 20 2011, 09:14 AM
Since the system is volume based it is imperative that the engine have an excellent, very steady vacuum signature.
When I was building lots of these CIS engines I designed them like an engine that would run stock FI, but they loved more compression and head work.. Thats something that stock FI doesn't care much for.
It is VERY easy to over do it on the cam side of a CIS based engine, I used split duration and lift on the exhaust side to make my power along with a very mild arrangement on the intake side and was never disappointed.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jul 20 2011, 12:22 PM
Jake is your carb cam (the one similar to the 494) too aggressive for CIS?
Zach
Posted by: charliew Jul 20 2011, 12:29 PM
Jakes probably under a boxter looking for a oil leak.
Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Jul 21 2011, 08:57 AM
Jakes probably under a boxter looking for a oil leak.
VERY cool thread - keep the info coming.
SO many folks jump to carbs instead of dealing with D-jet. If the K-jet system sounds like a great option.
I see the injectors need a custom part, intake routing is custom but simple enough...
throttle body mods?
Posted by: scotty b Jul 21 2011, 08:18 PM
Jakes probably under a boxter looking for a oil leak.
VERY cool thread - keep the info coming.
SO many folks jump to carbs instead of dealing with D-jet. If the K-jet system sounds like a great option.
I see the injectors need a custom part, intake routing is custom but simple enough...
throttle body mods?
I used to be a die hard carb die THEN I LEARNED how to work with fuel injection. I have yet to look back. I am currently planning on upgrading the 360 in my CJ-7 to F.I. And considering flipping my dads 1.7 over to CIS if I ever get the metal work finished
Posted by: jaxdream Jul 22 2011, 05:02 PM
Maybe one could get some stainless lines made up from Chris Foley ( Tangerine Racing ) to run the pump up front and have lines that would take the pressure for this. A fella on evilbay sells stainless lines for the Mk1 Rabbit with the bubble flair on them for Rabbit replacement , Chris might be able to do this as he's familar with 914s.
Jack
Posted by: jimkelly Jul 22 2011, 08:28 PM
curious?
if one were to use a megajolt jr with edis parts and mcmarks crank position sensor for ignition only ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550
could cis be used with it - versus carbs?
or does cis tie ignition to fuel some how?
jim
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 22 2011, 09:16 PM
I've followed this thread hoping to find relief from the oppression of the MAPS, a part that is, in my limited experience, too fragile, too hard to find, and too critical to operation of the d-jet system for my comfort. Under that criteria, and given the fact that I don't have a super-sized motor to fuel, I don't think of k-jet as a viable alternative to my imperfectly stock FI.
The OP, jcl914, and Rex-n-effect are obviously talented mechanics and/or have identified a supply of spare parts. They put their talents and resources to good and productive use. I'm very grateful they shared their interesting information about CIS
but...
I've been checking pull-a-part inventories for three cities for the past two weeks for a 1977-79, Rabbit, Dasher, Jetta, or Scirocco and have only found one (later models had the lambda circuit and an ECU).
Assuming I found a donor with its fuel system intact, after the conversion I'd be in the same position as I am now with d-jet. No, the critical k-jet components are not obsolete, just insanely expensive (mass airflow sensor/fuel distributor = $1800 at Rockauto). I didn't check the e-bay but with that new price as a point of departure, used k-jet parts are probably just as pricey as d-jet parts. At (new) $200 for an accumulator $75 for an idle air regulator, $200 for a high pressure pump, and $50 for Bosch injectors, repair costs could be prohibitive.
I don't know where a stash of late 70's VW' donor's are anymore than I know where a supply of early 70's 914's are. so tracking down a solid ECU MPS, TPS, CHT, and dizzy fuel points for my stock motor doesn't feel different that tracking down a fuel accumulator, mass air flow sensor and fuel distributor, idle air valve, and special injectors. Maybe easier since the stock components have fewer moving parts?
Now if you went the next step and converted to K-L - jet ('81 Scirocco's were really neat cars, BTW) with an O2sensor and a lambda control circuit, that might be a different and even more interesting story...
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 22 2011, 09:27 PM
curious?
if one were to use a megajolt jr with edis parts and mcmarks crank position sensor for ignition only ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550
could cis be used with it - versus carbs?
or does cis tie ignition to fuel some how?
jim
Don't know nothing about it except what read; however, fuel delivery is continuous. ("K" means "Konstant") There are no injector distributor points. I have to believe it doesn't make any difference how you fire it.
Posted by: jcd914 Jul 23 2011, 12:12 AM
I've followed this thread hoping to find relief from the oppression of the MAPS, a part that is, in my limited experience, too fragile, too hard to find, and too critical to operation of the d-jet system for my comfort. Under that criteria, and given the fact that I don't have a super-sized motor to fuel, I don't think of k-jet as a viable alternative to my imperfectly stock FI.
The OP, jcl914, and Rex-n-effect are obviously talented mechanics and/or have identified a supply of spare parts. They put their talents and resources to good and productive use. I'm very grateful they shared their interesting information about CIS
but...
I've been checking pull-a-part inventories for three cities for the past two weeks for a 1977-79, Rabbit, Dasher, Jetta, or Scirocco and have only found one (later models had the lambda circuit and an ECU).
Assuming I found a donor with its fuel system intact, after the conversion I'd be in the same position as I am now with d-jet. No, the critical k-jet components are not obsolete, just insanely expensive (mass airflow sensor/fuel distributor = $1800 at Rockauto). I didn't check the e-bay but with that new price as a point of departure, used k-jet parts are probably just as pricey as d-jet parts. At (new) $200 for an accumulator $75 for an idle air regulator, $200 for a high pressure pump, and $50 for Bosch injectors, repair costs could be prohibitive.
I don't know where a stash of late 70's VW' donor's are anymore than I know where a supply of early 70's 914's are. so tracking down a solid ECU MPS, TPS, CHT, and dizzy fuel points for my stock motor doesn't feel different that tracking down a fuel accumulator, mass air flow sensor and fuel distributor, idle air valve, and special injectors. Maybe easier since the stock components have fewer moving parts?
Now if you went the next step and converted to K-L - jet ('81 Scirocco's were really neat cars, BTW) with an O2sensor and a lambda control circuit, that might be a different and even more interesting story...
You are probably correct that piecing together a system from bits you pick up off seperate cars would be too difficult for most, I would not want to try. You would indeed want to find a complete or mostly complete system from a single source. How possible is that anymore? I don't know.
Often I think of things as they were for me when I was working in the shop everyday. Well I have been working in an office for 16 years now and I don't come accross too many CIS parts here but we do have a huge library of factory manuals to go thru.
VW & Audi used CIS or CIS w/lambda up thru 1983 and a lambda system would only add a little extra to the installation.
The key components that need to be matched to each other are the air flow sensor and fuel distributor. The injectors and comtrol pressure regulator should be close matches and you could use many different CIS fuel pumps, accumulators, aux air regulators. You would still be faced with patching together a system that you won't know for sure how it will work until you are done and you will likely have to do some teaking to get the mixture correct accorss the board.
It can be done and has been but I Would consider it an experimental project rather than a cheaper solution to D-jet.
An L-jet system on a D-jet engine work pretty good and the earlest L-jets were newer technology than the oldest D-jets.
I put a 1.7L long block in a 74 1.8 914 using the 1.8 L-jet system and it ran better that any 1.8 car I ever drove. The L-jet system really like the extra compression the 1.7 had.
Jim
Posted by: jcd914 Jul 23 2011, 12:15 AM
curious?
if one were to use a megajolt jr with edis parts and mcmarks crank position sensor for ignition only ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550
could cis be used with it - versus carbs?
or does cis tie ignition to fuel some how?
jim
Don't know nothing about it except what read; however, fuel delivery is continuous. ("K" means "Konstant") There are no injector distributor points. I have to believe it doesn't make any difference how you fire it.
Correct CIS does not care about your ignition. Some used a fuel pump relay that would not stay on without an ignition signal but that is it.
Jim
Posted by: jaxdream Jul 23 2011, 07:27 AM
This mod would be a great alternative to buying a complete carb setup , if one didn't have a fuel induction system to begin with. If you already have a fac. FI setup , then it is probably the best way to go , although the critical parts are getting harder and $$$ to source. The CIS was used on a lot of different cars and is still more plentiful .I checked over eBay for a current price check gauge and the hard parts didn't seem any more expensive than what it would take to piece together a d-jet or l- jet setup from scratch. There seems to be alot of fellas that have had good experiences with the CIS a very good gauge of reliability of the system. It's not modern FI by a long shot just another way to get air and fuel to the cylinders. I like what I have read about it and probably will in the future ( when the engine side of my project gets there ) dig into this mod for my induction needs , as what I have at present , carbs that may be junk , this setup would be very doable .
My $.02 and I hope my posting doen't kill the thread .
Jack
Posted by: Prospectfarms Jul 23 2011, 03:12 PM
jcd914 wrote: "I put a 1.7L long block in a 74 1.8 914 using the 1.8 L-jet system and it ran better that any 1.8 car I ever drove. The L-jet system really like the extra compression the 1.7 had."
You are the third person I've heard say something positive about l-jet on a 1.7. One was a member here, who referenced to me a thread from several years ago. The other was a local guy who I met the other day. I'll look for some more threads on that topic. If there's some information I'll report back in a new topic. Sorry for going off-post.
I've followed this thread hoping to find relief from the oppression of the MAPS, a part that is, in my limited experience, too fragile, too hard to find, and too critical to operation of the d-jet system for my comfort. Under that criteria, and given the fact that I don't have a super-sized motor to fuel, I don't think of k-jet as a viable alternative to my imperfectly stock FI.
The OP, jcl914, and Rex-n-effect are obviously talented mechanics and/or have identified a supply of spare parts. They put their talents and resources to good and productive use. I'm very grateful they shared their interesting information about CIS
but...
I've been checking pull-a-part inventories for three cities for the past two weeks for a 1977-79, Rabbit, Dasher, Jetta, or Scirocco and have only found one (later models had the lambda circuit and an ECU).
Assuming I found a donor with its fuel system intact, after the conversion I'd be in the same position as I am now with d-jet. No, the critical k-jet components are not obsolete, just insanely expensive (mass airflow sensor/fuel distributor = $1800 at Rockauto). I didn't check the e-bay but with that new price as a point of departure, used k-jet parts are probably just as pricey as d-jet parts. At (new) $200 for an accumulator $75 for an idle air regulator, $200 for a high pressure pump, and $50 for Bosch injectors, repair costs could be prohibitive.
I don't know where a stash of late 70's VW' donor's are anymore than I know where a supply of early 70's 914's are. so tracking down a solid ECU MPS, TPS, CHT, and dizzy fuel points for my stock motor doesn't feel different that tracking down a fuel accumulator, mass air flow sensor and fuel distributor, idle air valve, and special injectors. Maybe easier since the stock components have fewer moving parts?
Now if you went the next step and converted to K-L - jet ('81 Scirocco's were really neat cars, BTW) with an O2sensor and a lambda control circuit, that might be a different and even more interesting story...
You are probably correct that piecing together a system from bits you pick up off seperate cars would be too difficult for most, I would not want to try. You would indeed want to find a complete or mostly complete system from a single source. How possible is that anymore? I don't know.
Often I think of things as they were for me when I was working in the shop everyday. Well I have been working in an office for 16 years now and I don't come accross too many CIS parts here but we do have a huge library of factory manuals to go thru.
VW & Audi used CIS or CIS w/lambda up thru 1983 and a lambda system would only add a little extra to the installation.
The key components that need to be matched to each other are the air flow sensor and fuel distributor. The injectors and comtrol pressure regulator should be close matches and you could use many different CIS fuel pumps, accumulators, aux air regulators. You would still be faced with patching together a system that you won't know for sure how it will work until you are done and you will likely have to do some teaking to get the mixture correct accorss the board.
It can be done and has been but I Would consider it an experimental project rather than a cheaper solution to D-jet.
An L-jet system on a D-jet engine work pretty good and the earlest L-jets were newer technology than the oldest D-jets.
I put a 1.7L long block in a 74 1.8 914 using the 1.8 L-jet system and it ran better that any 1.8 car I ever drove. The L-jet system really like the extra compression the 1.7 had.
Jim
Posted by: nein14 Jul 27 2011, 10:45 AM
I can speak of it's reliability and performance, I currently have owned the Evil Ed 914 GT Turbo for the past 7 years. I was building a clone of Ed's car when he put his car up for sale and I bought it.
the CIS system that I got from Gary Miller that Ed used I recently sold to a friend who recently installed it in his 914 2.0 with grest success!
I have tweaked the CIS in my GT Turbo with the injectors fro a 6.9 liter V 8 Mercedes which has provided increased fuel flow as well as 20 degree lower cylinder temps, also changed the WUR to the one used on the 930.
The CIS components are avaliable and as far as the intake runners if you find a set out of a VW bus that accept the CIS injectors you don't have to mod the 914 runners they bolt right up.
Posted by: dlee6204 Aug 2 2011, 11:09 PM
A little update on this….
The car is running great! I had some trouble getting the fuel mixture set correctly (long story but I shouldn’t have messed with the mixture in the first place) but I got through it and have been driving the car the past few days. Everything is running smoothly and even in extreme heat the car runs fantastic. I filled up the tank tonight and will be doing some mileage tests to see what kind of numbers I’m getting. I’ll report back.
Posted by: jaxdream Aug 3 2011, 08:30 AM
Great 
, I was wanting to see an update on this mod. Keep the info coming please.
Jack
Posted by: pete-stevers Sep 2 2011, 09:31 PM
great thread!!
Posted by: rohar Sep 2 2011, 09:56 PM
Jake is your carb cam (the one similar to the 494) too aggressive for CIS?
Zach
After years of working CIS on other engines, I suspect it is. If the cam gets too agressive, the air lever in the fuel dizzy starts to move erratically. In theory, this can be abated by adding anti revision geometry to the intake track, but I've never tried it/seen it. I've only read about it from some of the ancient notes from Drake Engineering. That said, as you increase air velocity, cam becomes less and less important. I've run rabbit 8v engines well over 200hp on CIS. In that environment we could get away with cams that simply wouldn't work at lower air flow.
I've seen CIS come up a lot lately, is there something in the air? Anyone ever thought of going digifant? Digifant I lends itself easily to an engine like the type iv.
Posted by: rohar Sep 2 2011, 10:30 PM
...
I don't know where a stash of late 70's VW' donor's are anymore than I know where a supply of early 70's 914's are. so tracking down a solid ECU MPS, TPS, CHT, and dizzy fuel points for my stock motor doesn't feel different that tracking down a fuel accumulator, mass air flow sensor and fuel distributor, idle air valve, and special injectors. Maybe easier since the stock components have fewer moving parts?
Now if you went the next step and converted to K-L - jet ('81 Scirocco's were really neat cars, BTW) with an O2sensor and a lambda control circuit, that might be a different and even more interesting story...
I've not had the problem tracking down used CIS parts in the NW like you're seeing. I can drive about 2 miles and score a whole system.
By phone, you might want to give Campbell Nelson a call in Edmonds, Spaldings or Whitey's Wrecking in Spokane. There's probably more, but those three have been good for me over the years.
BTW, I was buying K-Jet dizzys for $150 new 10 years ago. Given what they're selling for today, I shoulda bought more off them
Posted by: rohar Sep 3 2011, 12:20 PM
After sleeping on it, I could be convinced to go out and pull full systems and bench test them if the money's right. Might take me a little time as I'm packing right now for the move, but it's an idea.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Sep 3 2011, 05:15 PM
Jake is your carb cam (the one similar to the 494) too aggressive for CIS?
Zach
After years of working CIS on other engines, I suspect it is. If the cam gets too agressive, the air lever in the fuel dizzy starts to move erratically. In theory, this can be abated by adding anti revision geometry to the intake track, but I've never tried it/seen it. I've only read about it from some of the ancient notes from Drake Engineering. That said, as you increase air velocity, cam becomes less and less important. I've run rabbit 8v engines well over 200hp on CIS. In that environment we could get away with cams that simply wouldn't work at lower air flow.
I've seen CIS come up a lot lately, is there something in the air? Anyone ever thought of going digifant? Digifant I lends itself easily to an engine like the type iv.
The 9530 cam that I have is supposed to run well with CIS. Jake says that he has used it for CIS engines in the past.
That said, I'm going to MSII.
Zach
Posted by: Dr Evil Sep 3 2011, 07:24 PM
Zach, for you I would gladly assemble a MSII for free
Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 4 2011, 09:34 PM
As for what happens with a radical cam with the CIS, I can't speak to how a T4 would act with one, but I can say that my dad raced a circle track 1.8 rabbit with CIS.
The class limited lift to .425" but had no limits on duration or LC. He ran a seriously radical cam with lots of overlap. He also had 14.0:1 compression. It was actually very drivable at lower revs (which it only saw driving around the pits and onto the trailer), and was unbelievable strong on the track (he won a lot of races with it). It idled great with a little lope, but it never bucked and throttle response was instant, even when heavily loaded.
It surprised us both how well the CIS handled the overlap. Of course I'm sure the compression helped and if it had been a street car (with lower compression) it might not have been as tame, and the myriad driving situations that come up on the street might have revealed some shortcomings. But I have driven carbed engines with a lot of cam on the street that were much less behaved.
To bad it's such a PITA to change cams in a T4. It would be pretty cool to see how one responded with a lot of cam. I suspect that the lighter 914 would be more forgiving to it than a heavy bus. I also thing that a larger engine would handle the CIS with more cam better.
Posted by: dlee6204 Sep 11 2011, 07:15 PM
Small Update:
I've been driving the car alot and it hasn't missed a beat. Last weekend I took it to the mountains and drove to the top of Mt. Mitchell (6500 ft) without a problem. Today I took it on a charity car cruise through some hills and lots of back roads. Over 200 miles today and I got 31 MPG! That's pretty good considering I was driving it pretty hard at times. I have been getting about the same with mixed driving around town. I'm pretty pleased with these result. I think I'll keep it.
Posted by: jaxdream Sep 11 2011, 10:38 PM
Most Excellllent !!!!!
Jack
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 11 2011, 10:59 PM
!!!!!
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Sep 12 2011, 05:11 AM
That GREAT!
Zach
Posted by: dlee6204 Nov 17 2011, 05:55 PM
So I thought I would give one last quick update... The car has been performing flawlessly. It hasn't missed a beat. Still getting mid 30's for mileage and still very pleased with everything. Now that its gotten cold though, it can be difficult to start but that's simply because I never installed the cold start injector and thermo switch initially. That's on the project list for this weekend 
Posted by: Dr Evil Nov 17 2011, 07:12 PM
How cold? The cold start injector does not fire until in the 30s F*.
Posted by: 76-914 Nov 17 2011, 07:57 PM
Doug, what do you think is a fair price for this setup (sans injector brackets) for a guy to pay? I can't help but think one might be better off buying a clunker. My neighbor can't get rid of his rabbit for $500.
Posted by: dlee6204 Nov 17 2011, 08:27 PM
I know the cold start injector fires around 32 for a D-jet system but is that the case with a CIS Basic system? It depends on the Thermo-time switch which I believe is different.
Usually its hard to start when its in the 30s... maybe 40s
Posted by: dlee6204 Nov 17 2011, 08:33 PM
I would say you could get most of the components for $100-200. I know I paid less than 150 for everything from the local pick-n-pull
Posted by: pete-stevers Nov 17 2011, 08:34 PM
i hope to build out my next 914 with a cis 1.7...rather than a six, primarily for milage over brute hp
Posted by: Dion Nov 18 2011, 10:56 AM
Doug,
Nice build. I have the CIS on my 2.0. It worked so well this past summer I wound up blowing 1st gear(40 yrs old,never touched)with the improved torque.
I was wanting to dyno it before this mishap. On paper it should be in the 120hp range. It has 96mm P&C with a FAT cam lift 413, and duration of 258.
I had posted my build titled "16 mos in the making" or search under Dion.
I received a lot of nice feedback from the forum.
914Dave and I installed it. We placed the airbox on the drivers side with a short run
to the thottle for better response. The Volvo box looks like a good idea. I have the Rabbit/GTI box.
Nice fuel economy numbers you have. We'll back to taking the tranny out....
Cheers,Dion
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Posted by: trojanhorsepower Nov 19 2011, 05:53 PM
Hey Doug,
Looks good.
Glad you got it worked out.
-Peter
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Nov 19 2011, 06:24 PM
I used the Volvo box in my 3.0L 6 conversion and it works great!!
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Posted by: Kraftwerk Nov 19 2011, 07:33 PM
Dion,
I like that set up, and a very clean install.
I used to own an '86 V-Dub, so it all looks very familiar &
very tempting, but my f.i. system works flawlessly right now.
Posted by: nein14 Nov 20 2011, 07:51 AM
I used the Volvo box in my 3.0L 6 conversion and it works great!!
I have this set. Up in my 2.0 turbo
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Posted by: type47 Sep 16 2013, 02:25 PM
So, how did you guys transition from the boot on the intake air sensor to the throttle body? This pic looks like black ABS pipe 
but I can't, yet, find a good way to get to the throttle body. I'm trying to get to a 2L throttle body in pic below:
The mixture system is not in final position for installation; this is to hopefully see if I/we can get the motor running out of the car.
2 more questions:
Do you have "stock" fuel lines or SS fuel lines? Any problems with adequate flow of fuel thru the lines to the fuel distributor?
What initial adjustments were needed to make the system run on a motor? Was it just bolted on and it ran?
Posted by: dlee6204 Sep 16 2013, 02:35 PM
I ended up switching to a 2.0L intake and Throttle body so I made a special elbow to connect the two. Lets see if I can find a pic...
Posted by: dlee6204 Sep 16 2013, 02:41 PM
Posted by: type47 Sep 16 2013, 02:50 PM
That's beautiful! I have a plastic "S" shaped pipe that is used in the VW intake system. One end fits the boot at the oval end but then goes to about 2.5" circular opening which is what I'm looking for parts for. I think I'll try to mount the injectors like this:
an idea I found in my searches. I got the concave washers today from some core heads in the parts stash. Thanks to root for letting me work at his shop today.
Posted by: Dion Sep 16 2013, 08:38 PM
Nice work Jim,
My set up is using PVC pipe and Jubilee clamps for connecting the Rabbit/GTi
airbox to the throttle body. Good solution on the injectors. My fuel lines are a bit of a mix right now. Rubber & braided steel. I think they are from a 924 set up if I remember correctly. I have a 911 cold start injector on the plenum.
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Posted by: type47 Sep 17 2013, 06:37 AM
Thanks for the pix, Dion. I asked this ? before; did your engine start right up when the CIS system was bolted on? What kind of adjustment did you have to do on first start-up, if any? Plans are to fire it up at the ECC Oct 12...
Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 17 2013, 06:48 AM
will second generation jetta etc, cis work as well?
k
Posted by: 914dave Sep 17 2013, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the pix, Dion. I asked this ? before; did your engine start right up when the CIS system was bolted on? What kind of adjustment did you have to do on first start-up, if any? Plans are to fire it up at the ECC Oct 12...
Jim
Once all the air came out of the system Dion's system fired right off. Set the idle mixture after you warm it up. We picked up a CO2 meter to tweek in the idle mixture. We set it a little on the rich side because it keeps the mixture a little rich all the way through. Don't want to lean it out at all. I like your washer idea. That'll work just fine. Did the I ring fit in the stock injector bore or did you open it up?
Dave
Posted by: type47 Sep 17 2013, 03:36 PM
I like your washer idea. That'll work just fine. Did the I ring fit in the stock injector bore or did you open it up?
Actually not my idea, I found the pix online. The outer radius of the collar washer needs to be decreased to fit in the factory injector holder. I also want to open the center hold slightly to fit the injector. Here's what I did today w/HD parts
Can't find my throttle body gasket! Need ignition wires and alt cable grommet. Trip to the machine shop tomorrow to do injector holders/spacers
Posted by: Dion Sep 17 2013, 04:13 PM
Hey Jim,
Glad Dave responded to your question. Didn't see till late (too many patients).
As Dave said, car coughed,sputtered then cleared its throat.
Once idle was dialed in and timing adjustments done all
was ok. Co2 sniffer helped narrow the rich/lean
questions. Nice progress. Look good.
Keep at it.
Posted by: type47 Sep 24 2013, 06:47 PM
Found an even better way to mount the injectors. 1-1/4" fender washers; drilled out the center to fit the injector. Rod machined 1" spacers ... thanks root!
still have to paint and mount/replace intake air distributor. Don't see why it can't be ready to try to fire up at ECC. Oh, no exhaust; just stubs ...
Posted by: jaxdream Sep 24 2013, 09:56 PM
This has been a great thread to follow . I have a question about the injector retention methods shown here , sequence - o ring, spacer, larger o ring , washer, clamp - correct ?? and this does hold / keep the injector seated into the injector cavity even with the hi pressure that they run under , also does the hole at the end of the injector get covered or uncovered. Gotta ask if you don't know / haven't experienced.
Jack
Posted by: 914_teener Sep 24 2013, 10:44 PM
Jake is your carb cam (the one similar to the 494) too aggressive for CIS?
Zach
After years of working CIS on other engines, I suspect it is. If the cam gets too agressive, the air lever in the fuel dizzy starts to move erratically. In theory, this can be abated by adding anti revision geometry to the intake track, but I've never tried it/seen it. I've only read about it from some of the ancient notes from Drake Engineering. That said, as you increase air velocity, cam becomes less and less important. I've run rabbit 8v engines well over 200hp on CIS. In that environment we could get away with cams that simply wouldn't work at lower air flow.
I've seen CIS come up a lot lately, is there something in the air? Anyone ever thought of going digifant? Digifant I lends itself easily to an engine like the type iv.
The 9530 cam that I have is supposed to run well with CIS. Jake says that he has used it for CIS engines in the past.
That said, I'm going to MSII.
Zach
So after messing and running MSII now III right?.... do you still believe that?
Your thoughts.
I like this conversion for its pure simplicity.
Posted by: 914dave Sep 25 2013, 04:12 AM
Found an even better way to mount the injectors. 1-1/4" fender washers; drilled out the center to fit the injector. Rod machined 1" spacers ... thanks root!
still have to paint and mount/replace intake air distributor. Don't see why it can't be ready to try to fire up at ECC. Oh, no exhaust; just stubs ...
Jim
I like this solution. It solves the bung fabrication and welding that keeps more of these from being converted. Let's get an exhaust on this and fire it up!
Dave
Posted by: type47 Sep 25 2013, 05:52 AM
I have a question about the injector retention methods shown here , sequence - o ring, spacer, larger o ring , washer, clamp - correct ??
yes, in fact, the most left "o-ring" is a D-Jet injector small seal. There are 2 washers used.
and this does hold / keep the injector seated into the injector cavity even with the hi pressure that they run under , also does the hole at the end of the injector get covered or uncovered.
we haven't fired this up but I think the arrangement will hold up to the high injector pressure. It's pretty secure. The holes you refer to are the 4 small holes on the side? They are not covered up. Of course the hole at the end of the injector is free, that's the business end. I/we haven't run this particular engine yet to see if everything will be a success but plan to try at the ECC Oct 12. The motor is out of the car for testing and adjustment. I have a header exhaust, no muffler, that was on the engine when it was a race (PCA club racing) car. This cis system eliminates the ECU, MPS, decel valve, trigger points in the distributor, air cleaner assembly, throttle position sensor
Posted by: jaxdream Sep 25 2013, 08:25 AM
Thanks Jim , that was a great clarification , mentioning that the far left seal is actually a D-Jet system seal specifically. Look forward to more info on this setup as it progresses. It seems to be a very simple system with a few adjustments as long as certain parameters are addressed and maintained. TIA...
Jack
Posted by: type47 Oct 2 2013, 04:24 PM
Progress is on schedule to try to fire this thing up at the ECC Oct 12 at roots. Just a couple of questions for the collective brain trust:
1) do I need to have an accumulator in the fuel supply? We are "bench" testing this set-up; the engine is mated to a tranny mostly for the sake of having a starter and is out of the car on a caster system. I imagine we only start and run it for a short time, 30-45-60 seconds. I have an accumulator for the final install, just not connected at this time.
2) Do I need to connect to a relay board? We will supply power using a car battery with a trickle charger connected. Can we run the engine off battery power alone? I think since there will be no current in the alternator field windings, there is no need for a voltage regulator since without field winding current there would be no alternator output. Correct?
3) I think the ECC brain trust collective will be able to wire up the starter and power to the dizzy with Pertronix (before 
). I have gauges: VDO oil pressure that can be connected to a dual sender, vacuum ...
The project is on the bill:
Posted by: dlee6204 Oct 2 2013, 05:15 PM
You shouldn't need an accumulator. I don't run one on my car and I have had no issues.
Posted by: type47 Oct 13 2013, 07:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRLyDnp7G_0
Posted by: jimkelly Oct 13 2013, 07:53 AM
stainless steel braided fuel lines of CIS is way cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fJAfXYxWk
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Posted by: Kraftwerk Oct 13 2013, 11:06 PM
Jim,
enjoyed that film and the narration...
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