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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ For My Next Trick, Minimum Cost /6 Converion
Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 09:27 AM
It occurs to me that we've been throwing around some pretty big numbers in my 3.2 exploits of late.
I want to see how little I can spend converting Luckie's 914, but still do the job correctly.
Here are the parameters:
The engine has to be no larger than 2.4. This will save us the major expense of having to provide external cooling. The oil system will only be tank and lines.
The 2.4 will use an early 901 911 flywheel, which I should be able to find used. It will also use a stock clutch.
The goal on this one will be finished for $5k. I sourced a core 2.2T engine for $300. Since it was so little, I have quite a bit of room to fix whatever it needs, but 911 parts get expensive fast.
I'm going with Megasquirt II fuel injection possibly on a custom-built intake manifold. This arrangement will not use the expensive 914/6 bellcrank conversion, but rather a simple 914/4 stock throttle cable.
Current expenditures listed below:
Engine mount: $90
2.2T engine (long block, delivered): $195 (cost adjusted for unneeded parts sold off)
Megasquirt II ECU: $85
FI components (relay board cables and wiring): $219.25
Intake: $55
Headers: $168
Crank-fire pulley kit: $175
Blast headers: $10
POR-20 for the headers: $37.02
Current total $1034.27 
Posted by: kconway Jul 29 2011, 09:32 AM
Donations are cheating and will skew the data of the experiment! 
This sounds alot like what I'm doing, but i've already gone over the $5K mark.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jul 29 2011, 09:35 AM
It's an aggressive budget. Trekkor was able to keep the costs down on his 6 but I heard he had to then redo a bunch of stuff soon after. I'll be interested to see how this goes. If you can do it, please document it for the rest of us!
Zach
Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 09:43 AM
It's an aggressive budget. Trekkor was able to keep the costs down on his 6 but I heard he had to then redo a bunch of stuff soon after. I'll be interested to see how this goes. If you can do it, please document it for the rest of us!
Zach
It will be fully documented. That's the point.
Posted by: mepstein Jul 29 2011, 09:51 AM
To do a low cost conversion, a lot of it will depend on how you value your time. A lot of the time I've spent on my car I can chalk up to a fun hobby and an education but if this was a paying job, it might be cheaper just to order parts from a catalog. If guys like Eric Shea, Scotty B, ect. charged me for their advise, the build would be unaffordable to me
* just my thoughts, not a criticism to anyone.
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Jul 29 2011, 10:01 AM
I have a custom made oil tank that was in a race car that I will donate!
It mounts under the trunk above the axcels and opens, fills and checks the oil through the trunk!
Just pay shipping and packaging from 94505!
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Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 10:08 AM
To do a low cost conversion, a lot of it will depend on how you value your time. A lot of the time I've spent on my car I can chalk up to a fun hobby and an education but if this was a paying job, it might be cheaper just to order parts from a catalog. If guys like Eric Shea, Scotty B, ect. charged me for their advise, the build would be unaffordable to me
* just my thoughts, not a criticism to anyone.
This will obviously not take the time into consideration. It will be intended as a guide for do-it-yourselfers as to what they can expect as a minimum reasonable cost to have a decent /6 conversion.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 10:13 AM
I have a custom made oil tank that was in a race car that I will donate!
It mounts under the trunk above the axcels and opens, fills and checks the oil through the trunk!
Just pay shipping and packaging from 94505!
Man, that thing is ugly. But, I'll have a look. How much to ship?
Posted by: J P Stein Jul 29 2011, 10:14 AM
To make it accurate you'll not want to us your undoubtly wide range of contacts for freebies. Duplicate the average DIY guy doing the deed with just normal access to bits and you will have it. Good luck with that budget.
My old running 2.4L T motor with Webers cost 2400 bucks from Asse bros.....several years back. DIY guys do shop around.
BTW, I wouldn't use a crossbar mount if you paid me to take it. 
Posted by: shoguneagle Jul 29 2011, 10:15 AM
Joe,
This looks like a great project. I really like the 2.2 and 2.4 engines. I do have a 914-6 oil tank which I could part with; only after you see pictures we will talk. Just setting here so you might as well have it; will need some money though, but not anywhere near the level for used tanks. It has been cleaned and pressured checked. I have the console, dipstick and housing somewhere around here along with the possibility of the metric adaptor from 27mm(?) for the oil tank. May have some other items you can use.
I did find out a little more regarding the DMEs for the 1984-86 and 1987-89 3.2 engines. The essential difference is the 84-86 and nonprogrammable with 24 pins and programs burned into the chip; 87-89 is programmable with 28 pins. I am still unsure about the o2 sensor being just on the 87-89 and not on the 84-86. Hopefully, I will get a nonrepairable DME to tear apart to see what makes it tick and give me a basis to talk to knowledgeable experts. I find this very interesting.
Excellent, excellent project. Let us see if we can help you and Luckie on this project.
Will get back to you.
Steve Hurt
Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 10:26 AM
Joe,
This looks like a great project. I really like the 2.2 and 2.4 engines. I do have a 914-6 oil tank which I could part with; only after you see pictures we will talk. Just setting here so you might as well have it; will need some money though, but not anywhere near the level for used tanks. It has been cleaned and pressured checked. I have the console, dipstick and housing somewhere around here along with the possibility of the metric adaptor from 27mm(?) for the oil tank. May have some other items you can use.
I did find out a little more regarding the DMEs for the 1984-86 and 1987-89 3.2 engines. The essential difference is the 84-86 and nonprogrammable with 24 pins and programs burned into the chip; 87-89 is programmable with 28 pins. I am still unsure about the o2 sensor being just on the 87-89 and not on the 84-86. Hopefully, I will get a nonrepairable DME to tear apart to see what makes it tick and give me a basis to talk to knowledgeable experts. I find this very interesting.
Excellent, excellent project. Let us see if we can help you and Luckie on this project.
Will get back to you.
Steve Hurt
Get me the info on the tank. It sounds like something I'd like to get from you.
JP is right, for this to be a reasonable cost guide, I'm going to have to pay for the parts.
I am going to use the cross-bar mount though. There is absolutely nothing fundamentally wrong with mounting a /6 to the same (very strong) /4 positions on the chassis. Most people on a budget would take the same route.
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Jul 29 2011, 10:33 AM
Yes it is, but it is a Tank........literaly!!
I don't think it will fit into a flat rate box and it is heavy maybe 7 or 8 pounds!
It doesn't include the filters or lines either!
Let me know if you want it!
If not, it is available to anyone who wants a cheap hillbilly tank for thier cheap hillbilly car...FREE!!
Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 10:41 AM
Yes it is, but it is a Tank........literaly!!
I don't think it will fit into a flat rate box and it is heavy maybe 7 or 8 pounds!
It doesn't include the filters or lines either!
Let me know if you want it!
If not, it is available to anyone who wants a cheap hillbilly tank for thier cheap hillbilly car...FREE!!
After considering JP's comment and the fact that I stated "done correctly" at the outset, I have reconsidered. Let someone else have it.
But, I appreciate the offer.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 10:45 AM
To make it accurate you'll not want to us your undoubtly wide range of contacts for freebies.
OK JP. I'm not taking the free "tank", but I want you to notice that someone else, who doesn't have my "wide range of contacts", may also have it for free.
Posted by: SirAndy Jul 29 2011, 10:53 AM
I think 5k is possible for a small /6 without relying on donations ...
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Posted by: Series9 Jul 29 2011, 10:56 AM
I think 5k is possible for a small /6 without relying on donations ...
As you can see, I started a running total at the bottom of the first post. I listed the free engine mount for $100, which is a fair market value.
Posted by: SirAndy Jul 29 2011, 11:05 AM
I've seen 911 oil tanks used. They don't fit behind the fender and mounting them in the trunk is butt ugly.
Maybe if you relocated the relay board there's enough space for one inside the engine bay?
The upside of a 911 tank would be a working oil level sending unit.
Posted by: Andyrew Jul 29 2011, 11:59 AM
Joe,
I think that as long as you list parts at their available to average person used (if you get them used) prices, then I think you can use donated parts.
IE that custom race tank could be made for probably $200, In fact probably less than that. Since this is an ultra budget 6 conversion I think that this is an acceptable means of oil storage. 
However if the cross bar motor mount doesnt hold the engine properly and has been known to fail (I have no clue if this is true..), then This probably shouldnt be incorperated into the conversion. However maybe fabricating some engine mounts yourself would be acceptable. Dont cheat and take dimensions from conversion mounts in your shop, dry mount the engine and fab the mounts in place like the average person would!
But all in all, I say go for it! This will be an interesting build!
Posted by: Drums66 Jul 29 2011, 12:35 PM
.....The fram filter's scare me more !....oil tank is cool, long as it
holds oil it's good enough! (bad ju ju with those filter's)
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Jul 29 2011, 12:41 PM
.....The fram filter's scare me more !....oil tank is cool, long as it
holds oil it's good enough!
(bad ju ju with those filter's)The filter consol is kind of cool minus the bracket. It has the AN connectors and everything!
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: no1uno Jul 29 2011, 12:47 PM
I'll be watching this one closely.
Posted by: JmuRiz Jul 29 2011, 01:45 PM
Wow, that tank is kind of cool.
I was hoping to do some out-of-the-box thinking but went with a PMS tank. Does that tank go in the engine bay? (edit: I just saw that it goes under the trunk) Does it have baffling, what material is it made of...very interesting....
BTW I think $5k is do-able.
If I end up using my Bursch and the CIS on my 2.7 instead of the carbs my price list is $5200 total with mostly NEW fancy parts!!!
Oh yeah, that's before selling off my 2.0 /4 engine and all the goodies too.
Posted by: r_towle Jul 29 2011, 02:28 PM
I did find out a little more regarding the DMEs for the 1984-86 and 1987-89 3.2 engines. The essential difference is the 84-86 and nonprogrammable with 24 pins and programs burned into the chip; 87-89 is programmable with 28 pins. I am still unsure about the o2 sensor being just on the 87-89 and not on the 84-86.
Both DME's are upgraded with new chips.
The older DME's can be changed from the 2k format to the 4k format with a small amount of soldering...so you can use the later chips.
See Steve Wongs 911 chip site.
The largest difference between the two is the idle circuit sucks on the earlier DME's and the later ones smooth that out quite a bit.
Either one will be smoothed out very nicely with the Steve Wong chip.
He enriches the idle circuit and the lower RPM curve so street driving is more pleasant.
Both the early and later versions use narrow band O2 sensors.
These only kick in when hot, but if you delete that sensor, your MPG will suffer dearly (50%)
Euro DME's have no O2 sensor and they have different A/F maps.
Call Steve Wong...he can lead you in the right direction.
Rich
Posted by: Woody Jul 29 2011, 04:15 PM
Are there any disadvantages to using a front tank setup like this? The reason I ask is this may be the route I choose so I can get a little bit better weight distribution.
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/401/
Posted by: JmuRiz Jul 29 2011, 04:24 PM
Bigtime loss of trunk space is why I didn't go that route. Other than that, it's a good option.
Posted by: brant Jul 29 2011, 04:25 PM
Are there any disadvantages to using a front tank setup like this? The reason I ask is this may be the route I choose so I can get a little bit better weight distribution.
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/401/
a lot of people do it successfully.
but it is recommended that your return line (feeding the oil to the bearings directly) be AN16
all of those feet of AN16 add up, plus the fittings.... so you could have 400+ worth of oil line and fittings (I think the line is going for $1 an inch these days)
on the con side, there is some concern (especially in racing) that all of the dips and curves, plus the 13+ foot of length could lead to oil starvation of the bearings during cornering
its a gravity feed system, which is why the factory put the tank above the motor inlet (remember this is a manufacturer who understand and cares about how high weight is in the chassis, yet they did it anyways) It may also be the reason the factory tank is shapped in a funnel overall, to assure the gravity feed and reduce the ability for the oil to slosh away from the drain into the engine.
brant
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 29 2011, 04:43 PM
Brad converted a white 914 (early?) into a Six for $5K. He did some pretty careful shopping around, and the conversion was very mild. I think it used a 69 911T motor (which came with the carbs, for not a lot of money) and he kept the stock four-lug setup and such.
That's probably about as cheap as it can reasonably be done, unless you're really into fabrication like Dan Root did.
--DD
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 29 2011, 04:43 PM
Rats, double post...
Posted by: racerbvd Jul 29 2011, 05:13 PM
Well, you start off looking for a deal like this;
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=137220
Then you look for a deal like this;
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=137220
Sell off the extra tub & other extra bits and you should be able to do it, that is if you are doing it your self & bribing buddies with beer & pizza..
Posted by: Twise Jul 29 2011, 05:14 PM
I think it can be done for that. But, would you want to? The lure of better parts for more money is pretty un-avoidable. Once you get the car tore apart and you are "planning" it is easy to be distracted by "shiny things".... I had a 10k budget for my car, and I am way past that. Way, way past that. I started out with a frugle mindset and then got distracted by, you know, "shiny things"....
Posted by: SLITS Jul 29 2011, 05:39 PM
O'Brien has been into the Opaloca Wacky Gold again I see.
I can name that note for $3K Wink.
Posted by: J P Stein Jul 29 2011, 06:26 PM
Lay the stock T-4 cross bar up against any of those POS "quick six" type bars......Ayuppers, that 4 bar is one stout puppy......forged steel, IIRC. A piece of tubing (or bar stock) of half the weight is not and most of em' break along the substandard gusset welds due to flexing. Just raise your budget to $5200 & blame it on me.
Posted by: jimkelly Jul 29 2011, 06:36 PM
isn't finding a good 6 with good leak down - the true obstacle - the unknown.
the rest of the parts are off the shelf and easy to source.
jim
Posted by: Series9 Jul 30 2011, 10:40 AM
isn't finding a good 6 with good leak down - the true obstacle - the unknown.
the rest of the parts are off the shelf and easy to source.
jim
Very true. I've been offered a 2.2T long block for $300. Now the challenge will be to get the engine delivered and in running condition for less than $3200.
For those who have said it's difficult to resist the upgrades, I understand. I've already priced a bunch of engine upgrades, but I'm going to resist for now.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 30 2011, 01:14 PM
Megasquirt II with distributorless EDIS6.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 30 2011, 02:27 PM
I'm not positive this will fit, but it was cheap so I bought it on spec.
3.2L intake manifold for $200!
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Series9 Jul 30 2011, 02:47 PM
Are there any disadvantages to using a front tank setup like this? The reason I ask is this may be the route I choose so I can get a little bit better weight distribution.
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/401/
This arrangement lurks under the front deck on my car:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Woody Jul 30 2011, 05:04 PM
Are there any disadvantages to using a front tank setup like this? The reason I ask is this may be the route I choose so I can get a little bit better weight distribution.
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/401/
This arrangement lurks under the front deck on my car:
Yeah that's very similar to what I had in mind especially since ill be running a cooler. Didnt mean to thread Jack but that tank is substantially less than a fender mount.
Posted by: Series9 Jul 30 2011, 07:12 PM
Are there any disadvantages to using a front tank setup like this? The reason I ask is this may be the route I choose so I can get a little bit better weight distribution.
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/401/
This arrangement lurks under the front deck on my car:
Yeah that's very similar to what I had in mind especially since ill be running a cooler. Didnt mean to thread Jack but that tank is substantially less than a fender mount.
The oil system on the RS has nothing to do with saving money. The budget on that car came to 10x the budget of this conversion thread.
In the final analysis, that tank won't save you anything.
Posted by: brant Jul 30 2011, 08:26 PM
Agreed
the fender tank is just as cheap when you add the line cost
even with the front mounted cooler, the cost difference of AN16 line in comparison to AN12 line is substantial and the fittings are VERY substantial
the fender tank can actually be cheaper
The RS is not built on a budget that is for sure!
brant
Posted by: brant Jul 30 2011, 08:33 PM
This is a great thread Joe
I'm very slowly doing the same conversion
I still need to collect the 2.2core that you have found
I have the carbs, 2.2E pistons, 70.4crank and rods to make a med-high compression 2.4 out of it.
I've been collecting conversion parts for a couple of years now and want to upgrade my bar style mount and also find/build the motor still. Otherwise I think I have all of the parts collected.
brant
Posted by: Series9 Jul 30 2011, 09:02 PM
I'm not positive this will fit, but it was cheap so I bought it on spec.
3.2L intake manifold for $200!
Well, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
The seller is trying to back out by saying "I accidentally listed it twice and it sold yesterday."
Maybe I'll fabricate my first manifold......
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Jul 31 2011, 04:43 PM
http://www.searchtempest.com/results.php?location=94505&maxDist=250®ion_us=1&search_string=Porsche+914&keytype=adv&Region=na&cityselect=zip&page=0&showeb=1&category=8&subcat=sss&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max
Spotted this on CraigsList!
Posted by: jd74914 Jul 31 2011, 05:25 PM
Maybe I'll fabricate my first manifold......
BTDT, its not too hard.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this build...
Posted by: Series9 Jul 31 2011, 06:30 PM
http://www.searchtempest.com/results.php?location=94505&maxDist=250®ion_us=1&search_string=Porsche+914&keytype=adv&Region=na&cityselect=zip&page=0&showeb=1&category=8&subcat=sss&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max
Spotted this on CraigsList!
I have the engine on the way...
Posted by: SLITS Jul 31 2011, 06:39 PM
Hey Joe, I will look and see if I have a complete 73.5 2.4L CIS set up for the nominal price of $100 minus a $95 discount 'cause your such a good guy. Remember that the injectors are set in the heads on these early engines (MFI too) and not in the manifold runners like the later 2.7s and up. I could also come up with a 2.7L CIS system too.
Both systems will be minus the fuel accumulator and filter assembly.
Oh, the Brown Turd I did was a 2.4 CIS motor.
I like and understand CIS (almost).
If you get in a real pinch, I have the following exhaust ,,, Craigslist sellers don't take real good photos. I have $400 into them ($300 + got nailed $100 freight). I thought they were bolted together, but .... "That's the Rest of the Story". Was gonna have them cut and the appropriate collectors and flanges put back on them.
At the price, it's very close to a new set of headers.
For shipping I would cut the crossover pipe and it would lower the shipping into a reasonable range.
Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 31 2011, 07:58 PM
headers have no heat , So you are 1 up even if they are riverside nos
Posted by: bcheney Jul 31 2011, 08:30 PM
My glass is half full...Not sure how much I would bet that this can be done though. If you're only converting drivetrain and are only concerned with getting it running...then I think you have a legit chance of being successful. What I've found is that all the small items eat up conversion budgets. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing it run!
Posted by: Series9 Aug 1 2011, 09:41 AM
Hey Joe, I will look and see if I have a complete 73.5 2.4L CIS set up for the nominal price of $100 minus a $95 discount 'cause your such a good guy. Remember that the injectors are set in the heads on these early engines (MFI too) and not in the manifold runners like the later 2.7s and up. I could also come up with a 2.7L CIS system too.
Both systems will be minus the fuel accumulator and filter assembly.
Oh, the Brown Turd I did was a 2.4 CIS motor.
I like and understand CIS (almost).
If you get in a real pinch, I have the following exhaust ,,, Craigslist sellers don't take real good photos. I have $400 into them ($300 + got nailed $100 freight). I thought they were bolted together, but .... "That's the Rest of the Story". Was gonna have them cut and the appropriate collectors and flanges put back on them.
At the price, it's very close to a new set of headers.
For shipping I would cut the crossover pipe and it would lower the shipping into a reasonable range.
Thanks for the offers Ron. I'm doing Megasquirt on this one, so I'm either buying manifolds for a 3.2 or I'm going to make some myself. The CIS manifolds would be easy, but they're restrictive. Since I think I'll probably end up turning the engine into an S spec later on, I want to set up a high-flow top induction now.
As for the heat exchangers......
Posted by: Root_Werks Aug 1 2011, 11:14 AM
Not really sure if there is a true low budget 914-6 conversion possible anymore unless you have good connections. The average person will spend way more to convert one than you could buy one for. It USE to be totally worth it for the average bear:
Factory oil tank = $450
Used heater boxes = $500
Bursch headers (save a buck and time to hunt down heat) = $200
Used small 2.0-2.4 non "S" engine = $1000-1500 complete with muffler
Flywheel = $100
911 "Soft long" oil line = $65
Egnine tin = Free (I use to have templates)
Shifter bar = Free (I use to have a jig)
Muffler hanger = Free (I use to have a template)
Bell Crank = $15 for solex balls and cups, (I use to have jigs and templates)
Sell your 4cyl 1.7-1.8 $0, 2.0 $500
This was 10+ years ago, shoot, probably more like 15+ years ago.
I've seen some pretty good conversions go for $10-15k that looked to be clean cars. Not really sure if you could source all that, put it together for the same price anymore.
Posted by: Series9 Aug 3 2011, 06:12 AM
Looks like the engine comes with the flywheel and I have a lead on the headers and tank.
I need:
Muffler
Fan/Housing/Alternator
Engine Shroud
Oil cooler air duct
Posted by: AZ914 Aug 3 2011, 07:32 AM
Looks like the engine comes with the flywheel and I have a lead on the headers and tank.
I need:
Muffler
Fan/Housing/Alternator
Engine Shroud
Oil cooler air duct
Joe, you probably know this already... but the Pelican 911 classifieds are a damn gold mine for parts.
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Aug 3 2011, 08:57 AM
Looks like the engine comes with the flywheel and I have a lead on the headers and tank.
I need:
Muffler
Fan/Housing/Alternator
Engine Shroud
Oil cooler air duct
I have some 6 engine shroud that was fabricated for the same race car that the oil tank was for if you want some "ugly stuff"!
Free!
Posted by: kg6dxn Aug 3 2011, 09:41 AM
I have an extra MS2 ECU if you want it. I ran it on my V8 for a while. Perfect working order but no harness. $85 shipped
Posted by: Series9 Aug 3 2011, 11:47 AM
I have an extra MS2 ECU if you want it. I ran it on my V8 for a while. Perfect working order but no harness. $85 shipped
Sold! PM sent.
Posted by: SLITS Aug 3 2011, 12:58 PM
Looks like the engine comes with the flywheel and I have a lead on the headers and tank.
I need:
Muffler
Fan/Housing/Alternator
Engine Shroud
Oil cooler air duct
Muffler ... yes
Fan/housing/alternator ... maybe, doesn't belong to me and would have to see how much he wants for it. Off a 3.0 if it makes any difference to you.
Why can't you use a shroud with integral duct or do you just want the duct itself?
Posted by: Series9 Aug 3 2011, 01:20 PM
Looks like the engine comes with the flywheel and I have a lead on the headers and tank.
I need:
Muffler
Fan/Housing/Alternator
Engine Shroud
Oil cooler air duct
Muffler ... yes
Fan/housing/alternator ... maybe, doesn't belong to me and would have to see how much he wants for it. Off a 3.0 if it makes any difference to you.
Why can't you use a shroud with integral duct or do you just want the duct itself?
I just found a fan housing, so alternator and fan are still needed.
May I see a picture of the muffler?
Shroud too?
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 3 2011, 03:15 PM
If you're using the 911 oil cooler you'll need to mod the fitting that otherwise won't clear the trailing arm...
Posted by: SLITS Aug 3 2011, 05:10 PM
Muffler today ...
What's the OE on the fan housing or diameter?
Shroud tomorrow ....
Images ....... It's a Bischoff.
Posted by: Series9 Aug 3 2011, 06:02 PM
Muffler today ...
What's the OE on the fan housing or diameter?
Shroud tomorrow ....
Images ....... It's a Bischoff.
I think that muffler will work. Where's that thread where AAron converted one of those to twin center outlet? I think I'll do that.
The fan housing I have has the same part number as Wills' 3.2, but the alternator flange is the shallow one, like for an externally regulated alternator.
Posted by: Series9 Aug 3 2011, 06:05 PM
If you're using the 911 oil cooler you'll need to mod the fitting that otherwise won't clear the trailing arm...
I'm aware of that. I'll modify it.
You do know that this isn't my first /6 conversion.....
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 4 2011, 04:14 AM
You do know that this isn't my first /6 conversion...
Yes.
But for a lot of people reading along, it might be _their_ first /6 conversion...
Posted by: Series9 Aug 5 2011, 07:03 AM
You do know that this isn't my first /6 conversion...
Yes.
But for a lot of people reading along, it might be _their_ first /6 conversion...
Fair enough. I have a different way of converting a cooler that involves completely removing the original supply tube and clearancing the bottom of the cooler between the two lower mounting holes.
I then take steel JIC fitting with -16 male on one side and NPT on the other. Put that in the lathe, turn down the NPT side to accept the supply seal on the engine. Fab a bracket that also bolts to the two bottom oil cooler bolts and weld it to the new fitting.
I'm thinking about making a small run of them and selling them to people doing conversions.
I'll take pictures. I found pics from the TurtleGirl build.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: rktmn247 Aug 5 2011, 10:27 AM
You do know that this isn't my first /6 conversion...
Yes.
But for a lot of people reading along, it might be _their_ first /6 conversion...
Fair enough. I have a different way of converting a cooler that involves completely removing the original supply tube and clearancing the bottom of the cooler between the two lower mounting holes.
I then take steel JIC fitting with -16 male on one side and NPT on the other. Put that in the lathe, turn down the NPT side to accept the supply seal on the engine. Fab a bracket that also bolts to the two bottom oil cooler bolts and weld it to the new fitting.
I'm thinking about making a small run of them and selling them to people doing conversions.
I'll take pictures. I found pics from the TurtleGirl build.
That's a great idea! Let me know how much $. Thanks for doing this thread!
Posted by: brant Aug 5 2011, 10:35 AM
joe
let me know if you do make a run of these
I'll take one!
brant
Posted by: mepstein Aug 5 2011, 01:59 PM
I would probably be in for one once you come up with pricing. I have a good core. thanks, Mark
Posted by: Series9 Aug 5 2011, 03:06 PM
joe
let me know if you do make a run of these
I'll take one!
brant
The good thing about doing it this way is that you don't have to send me the cooler. The mod to the cooler can be done by the customer because it's not super precise work.
I'll have to make some before I have a price. It would come as an adapter fitting and two longer studs to replace the shorter stock ones in the engine case.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 5 2011, 03:09 PM
Does this change the length of the hose required to connect to the cooler?
Posted by: Series9 Aug 5 2011, 03:17 PM
Does this change the length of the hose required to connect to the cooler?
Yes. It assumes you are making custom hoses. If you're already converted, you would have to remake the supply line.
Factory hoses wouldn't work.
Posted by: r_towle Aug 5 2011, 05:44 PM
engine if you are still looking.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/610515-fs-71-911t-2-2l-engine.html
Posted by: Series9 Aug 6 2011, 01:40 PM
engine if you are still looking.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/610515-fs-71-911t-2-2l-engine.html
Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I have one on the way.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 6 2011, 01:51 PM
Does this change the length of the hose required to connect to the cooler?
Yes. It assumes you are making custom hoses. If you're already converted, you would have to remake the supply line.
Factory hoses wouldn't work.
Probably not for me then.
Posted by: wertygrog Aug 6 2011, 09:45 PM
I'm down for the oil cooler mod too!
p.s. love the thread!
Posted by: Series9 Aug 7 2011, 06:47 AM
I'm down for the oil cooler mod too!
p.s. love the thread!
I was giving this a lot of thought yesterday. I seem to remember that Liz's had a clearance issue between the hose fitting and the bottom of the cooler. I had to tighten the hose on the engine fitting and then install the two pieces on the engine.
So, I'm going to make the mod fitting to accept the hose directly via crimp at a hydraulic shop. I'll either deliver the fitting for you to add hose and crimp or deliver the fitting with a pig tail hose already crimped.
To drain the oil, simply remove the two nuts holding the fitting to the block.
I'm going to need CAD services so I can have the flange laser cut. Anyone?
Posted by: Series9 Aug 11 2011, 01:39 PM
What have we here? 
These might have a bad rep, but I have one that's been holding the 3.6 in the RS firmly in place for six years now.
No longer a freebie. I paid $90 delivered.
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Posted by: Series9 Aug 11 2011, 01:43 PM
Bonus!
The MS-II I purchased for $85 has a 3.0 board:
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Posted by: r_towle Aug 11 2011, 01:52 PM
What have we here?
These might have a bad rep, but I have one that's been holding the 3.6 in the RS firmly in place for six years now.
No longer a freebie. I paid $90 delivered.
How does that work? Welded to the original bar?
Rich
Posted by: JmuRiz Aug 11 2011, 02:35 PM
Yeah, how does that mount work? That's one of the parts I have yet to buy for my conversion...
Posted by: Series9 Aug 11 2011, 02:41 PM
Yeah, how does that mount work? That's one of the parts I have yet to buy for my conversion...
It bolts to the engine and bolts to the car in place of the /4 mount.
Posted by: jimkelly Aug 11 2011, 03:15 PM
joe - between us : )
what HP are you shooting for with this $5k project? 200+-
vs a raby 2056 for $5k producing 130-140HP +-
jim
Posted by: Series9 Aug 11 2011, 04:50 PM
Does that $5k Raby engine include Carbs/FI or is it just a long-block?
Anyway, I'm shooting for 140hp to start. The $5k build budget will include digital FI and distributorless ignition.
A little down the road, I'm going to open up the engine and swap in some S pistons, Nikasil cylinders and S cams. It'll end up around 190hp.
Posted by: jimkelly Aug 11 2011, 05:07 PM
good point - though the average 6 conversion using all STORE BOUGHT bits would probably cost $5k (tin/exhaust/oiltank/throttlelinkage/etc/etc) excluding engine and labor?
the 2056 - does not come with ignition or exhaust or engine core or a bunch of other bits. 125 HP without tangerine exhaust.
so i guess $5000 + type4 core + mallory dist + exhaust + carbs = $7000 +-
so i guess the question is - does one want to spend 50% more to do a six conversion - not on the cheap.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=42456
last question - can carbed 6 get thru emissions relatively easily? in my state all 914 must go thru emissions - thus i will stick with low cost V8 or possibly suby conversions. that said, who would not want a high reving six ; ))
Posted by: JmuRiz Aug 11 2011, 06:48 PM
Cool to know that engine mout can handle you 3.6...makes me think it'd work on my 2.7 (hmmmm)
Also I'm interested in what you have planned for the EFI and distributor-less ignition. I didn't even think those were possible on a budget.
Wish there was a builder like you closer to me...
Posted by: mepstein Aug 11 2011, 07:48 PM
good point - though the average 6 conversion using all STORE BOUGHT bits would probably cost $5k (tin/exhaust/oiltank/throttlelinkage/etc/etc) excluding engine and labor?
the 2056 - does not come with ignition or exhaust or engine core or a bunch of other bits. 125 HP without tangerine exhaust.
so i guess $5000 + type4 core + mallory dist + exhaust + carbs = $7000 +-
so i guess the question is - does one want to spend 50% more to do a six conversion - not on the cheap.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=42456
last question - can carbed 6 get thru emissions relatively easily? in my state all 914 must go thru emissions - thus i will stick with low cost V8 or possibly suby conversions. that said, who would not want a high reving six ; ))
I don't think the 5K engine is still 5K. I'm just guessing...I could be wrong.
I think all these projects need a flexible budget. At least that's my excuse for getting in over my head on mine.
Posted by: John Aug 11 2011, 08:25 PM
The only way to make a 5k budget on a 6 conversion requires one to do all their own labor (for free) AND fabricate most of the bits themselves.
Patience will bring deals, but this patience may take years in order to gather all the required bits for rock bottom prices.
I didn't end up re-doing anything on my conversion, but I do need to pull the engine and re-seal the chain housings, and it could stand to have the heads rebuilt, but I did my 3.2 conversion 5+ years ago.
The only way I was able to keep my budget in the 5k range was that I sold off most all my -4 parts and I also fabricated conversion parts and sold them. I did engine sheet metal, shift rods, block off plates, engine mounts, etc.
Posted by: mepstein Aug 11 2011, 08:36 PM
I'm doing mine for $5K. I bartered the rest from Eric Shea for an NOS ash tray.
Posted by: Series9 Nov 17 2011, 08:23 PM
It's been a while, but the 2.2 is finally here. $520 delivered:
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Posted by: a914dude Nov 17 2011, 08:27 PM
good point - though the average 6 conversion using all STORE BOUGHT bits would probably cost $5k (tin/exhaust/oiltank/throttlelinkage/etc/etc) excluding engine and labor?
the 2056 - does not come with ignition or exhaust or engine core or a bunch of other bits. 125 HP without tangerine exhaust.
so i guess $5000 + type4 core + mallory dist + exhaust + carbs = $7000 +-
so i guess the question is - does one want to spend 50% more to do a six conversion - not on the cheap.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=42456
last question - can carbed 6 get thru emissions relatively easily? in my state all 914 must go thru emissions - thus i will stick with low cost V8 or possibly suby conversions. that said, who would not want a high reving six ; ))
Jim, the original 914/6 had carbs. What else could they compare it to?
Posted by: bcheney Nov 17 2011, 08:57 PM
It's been a while, but the 2.2 is finally here. $520 delivered:
I bought my original -6 engine for this same dollar amount 4 years ago. I had it rebuilt to 2.2 E-Spec. Still working to get it installed...so many things get in the way...I hope to complete the install by this Christmas! Glad to see you're making progress!!
Posted by: sixnotfour Nov 17 2011, 08:59 PM
Wow -6 oil cooler and flywheel. does it have a bosch dizzy too ?
Posted by: John Nov 17 2011, 09:03 PM
It's been a while, but the 2.2 is finally here. $520 delivered:
Is that already a 914-6 engine? Looks like the cooler is already set up for a 914 (well it is pointed in the right direction at least).
Posted by: Steve Nov 17 2011, 09:07 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but I have not seen any longevity numbers for a big type four. I could not get more than 15k miles out of my 2.4 liter four (103x71). I had it overhauled twice before giving up and going to a six back in 1986. For the cost of rebuilding the four twice I could of had a six in the first place. My stock 3.2 motor has over 150k miles on it. It runs great and does not leak any oil.
Posted by: John Nov 17 2011, 09:11 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but I have not seen any longevity numbers for a big type four. I could not get more than 15k miles out of my 2.4 liter four (103x71). I had it overhauled twice before giving up and going to a six back in 1986. For the cost of rebuilding the four twice I could of had a six in the first place. My stock 3.2 motor has over 150k miles on it. It runs great and does not leak any oil.
Amen.
Posted by: monkeyboy Nov 17 2011, 09:19 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but I have not seen any longevity numbers for a big type four. I could not get more than 15k miles out of my 2.4 liter four (103x71). I had it overhauled twice before giving up and going to a six back in 1986. For the cost of rebuilding the four twice I could of had a six in the first place. My stock 3.2 motor has over 150k miles on it. It runs great and does not leak any oil.
Amen.
Not sure what the specs on your motor was, but Jake is claiming 100,000 miles. You aren't getting that for $5,000 though.
Posted by: JmuRiz Nov 17 2011, 09:51 PM
A 6-cyl for $520, wow....with the 914 cooler mod already on it? Amazing, I'll post my $ numbers tomorrow when I can see my spreadsheet.
Posted by: Steve Nov 17 2011, 10:16 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but I have not seen any longevity numbers for a big type four. I could not get more than 15k miles out of my 2.4 liter four (103x71). I had it overhauled twice before giving up and going to a six back in 1986. For the cost of rebuilding the four twice I could of had a six in the first place. My stock 3.2 motor has over 150k miles on it. It runs great and does not leak any oil.
Amen.
Not sure what the specs on your motor was, but Jake is claiming 100,000 miles. You aren't getting that for $5,000 though.
It was a stock 2.0 liter with 103mm cylinders and the stock 71mm 2.0 crankshaft. I was also running 44ida webers on it. I know there are not too many people recommending 103mm cylinders these days. The technology has improved allot since the early 80's. The first 2364? four sucked a valve and the second overhaul broke a ring. Both within 15k miles. Maybe my mechanic at the time didn't know what he was doing. He used to build type 4 sand rail motors. I paid $5200.00 for my 3.2 liter six, 11 years ago. Its actually my second six. The first six was a 2.7 with a top end overhaul. I installed it back in 1986. It had a top end overhaul when I installed it and it lasted about 100k miles before it started pulling head studs. It never left me stranded.
What size motor is Jake claiming 100k on?
Posted by: Steve Nov 17 2011, 10:18 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but I have not seen any longevity numbers for a big type four. I could not get more than 15k miles out of my 2.4 liter four (103x71). I had it overhauled twice before giving up and going to a six back in 1986. For the cost of rebuilding the four twice I could of had a six in the first place. My stock 3.2 motor has over 150k miles on it. It runs great and does not leak any oil.
Amen.
Too funny. I thought I was a fan of the 3.2 motor, you have two of them.
Posted by: 396 Nov 18 2011, 09:12 AM
joe
let me know if you do make a run of these
I'll take one!
brant
Please add me to this list too.
Thanks
Posted by: Series9 Nov 18 2011, 09:32 AM
Wow -6 oil cooler and flywheel. does it have a bosch dizzy too ?
It does have a Bosch distributor that will be for sale because I'm doing Megasquirt and distributorless ignition.
Posted by: Series9 Nov 22 2011, 08:30 PM
I started a leak-down test on the engine the other day. Yeah right. Wishful thinking.
#1. 50/100
#6. 0
#2. 0............
Returned the test tools to the box and got a flashlight to have a look in the intakes at the valves. MMMMMmmm rusty.
At minimum, the heads will need guides and facing, at least a few valves (maybe all of them), hone cylinders, rering, etc.
I'm VERY bad at doing the minimum to get it going. I've already looked at JE pistons and other $$$$$$ parts.
If there's good news, it's that this is a T engine. That means that is has a non-counterweighted crankshaft. That means there's no point in going crazy on the top end when the bottom end won't support the revs.
If I can get away with leaving the bottom end together, I will probably be able to hold myself back. If not, the budget is going to get scrapped as I turn it into a 2.4S.
Let me think about it.
Posted by: Madswede Nov 22 2011, 08:59 PM
I'm of two minds on this: one says go for it, make it a 2.4S ...the other says it might be better for the business to try your best to stay as close to budget as possible. I think you might find more business with "done right" /6 conversions as opposed to big six major engine upgrades, even if this example involves some top end work...that should be a standard caveat I think.
Posted by: Series9 Nov 22 2011, 09:13 PM
Must resist........
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Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 22 2011, 09:22 PM
Must resist........
If your still trying to stay within budget that may be a stretch...
Posted by: Series9 Nov 22 2011, 09:29 PM
Must resist........
If your still trying to stay within budget that may be a stretch...
You're right. Those are just the tip of the iceberg. Then I'd need a 2.4 CW crankshaft, S heads, cams.........
The machine work for the case alone is $$.
Posted by: mepstein Nov 22 2011, 09:33 PM
Must resist........
If your still trying to stay within budget that may be a stretch...
You're right. Those are just the tip of the iceberg. Then I'd need a 2.4 CW crankshaft, S heads, cams.........
The machine work for the case alone is $$.
Running engine on pelican and part out this engine?
Posted by: Series9 Nov 22 2011, 09:41 PM
Running engine on pelican and part out this engine?
I'll stick with this one and let the build play out. If I can top the engine for $2000, I think I can stay on track.
Posted by: Series9 Dec 8 2011, 08:37 AM
I just sold the Bosch distributor that came with the engine for $325.
The cost of the engine in the first post has been adjusted accordingly.
I would like to spend that $325 on 1.5" headers. Anyone?
Posted by: Series9 Dec 15 2011, 02:43 PM
Found headers for $168.
Here's a picture of the custom intake I'm going to fit to this engine. It's based on 2.7 intake runners with a custom plenum.
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Posted by: Jeffs9146 Dec 15 2011, 03:08 PM
You going to add a pop-off valve for that?
May not need it since it is metal!
Posted by: Ferg Dec 15 2011, 03:16 PM
Were the injector ports welded shut? Was that an intake that used a single carb set up?
How are you going to mount injectors?
Posted by: Series9 Dec 15 2011, 03:25 PM
Were the injector ports welded shut? Was that an intake that used a single carb set up?
How are you going to mount injectors?
I may get other 2.7 runners and get the adapters for the late injectors. I purchased that manifold only for the plenum.
Posted by: Ferg Dec 15 2011, 03:28 PM
Were the injector ports welded shut? Was that an intake that used a single carb set up?
How are you going to mount injectors?
I may get other 2.7 runners and get the adapters for the late injectors. I purchased that manifold only for the plenum.
Gotcha
Posted by: racerbvd Dec 15 2011, 03:29 PM
Must resist........
Shiny!!!
Posted by: Series9 Dec 16 2011, 07:24 PM
You going to add a pop-off valve for that?
May not need it since it is metal!
Negative.
Posted by: kg6dxn Dec 16 2011, 07:27 PM
I think the MS ECU I sold you is set up for a Ford MAF. Check the board add ons. Just in case you want to go that route...
Posted by: Series9 Dec 16 2011, 07:39 PM
I think the MS ECU I sold you is set up for a Ford MAF. Check the board add ons. Just in case you want to go that route...
When I get to that point, I'll call you. Many hours to be spent before I reach that point.......
Posted by: kg6dxn Dec 16 2011, 07:42 PM
I think the MS ECU I sold you is set up for a Ford MAF. Check the board add ons. Just in case you want to go that route...
When I get to that point, I'll call you. Many hours to be spent before I reach that point.......
Right on... http://bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html will help you too. Any Ford Mustang MAF can be used. It will be very helpful for tuning and drivability...
Posted by: Series9 Dec 17 2011, 08:51 AM
$175 for this kit and I still haven't spent a grand.
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Posted by: SLITS Dec 17 2011, 09:19 AM
Hah ... I bought one dem der kits ... makes great wall art (my HPV-3B won't communicate with my 'puter).
I do like the moto on the pulley ... had to install mirrors to see it while I am driving. 
Posted by: Series9 Dec 17 2011, 10:01 AM
Hah ... I bought one dem der kits ... makes great wall art (my HPV-3B won't communicate with my 'puter).
I do like the moto on the pulley ... had to install mirrors to see it while I am driving.
I'm going to use an EDIS6 and it will talk to the MSII.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 12 2012, 02:42 PM
I finally crossed the thousand-dollar mark.
My $168 headers are back from the blaster and I've modified them for an O2 sensor.
POR-20 is on the way to coat them:
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Posted by: SLITS Jan 12 2012, 06:16 PM
Hah ... I bought one dem der kits ... makes great wall art (my HPV-3B won't communicate with my 'puter).
I do like the moto on the pulley ... had to install mirrors to see it while I am driving.
I'm going to use an EDIS6 and it will talk to the MSII.
Does the MSII use a 60 -2 tooth wheel? I thought they used the 36 - 1 setup.
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jan 12 2012, 06:24 PM
Muffler today ...
What's the OE on the fan housing or diameter?
Shroud tomorrow ....
Images ....... It's a Bischoff.
I think that muffler will work. Where's that thread where AAron converted one of those to twin center outlet? I think I'll do that.
The fan housing I have has the same part number as Wills' 3.2, but the alternator flange is the shallow one, like for an externally regulated alternator.
Sorry to hijack, but where did you find a longblock for that kind of money? Did I miss this somewhere?
Posted by: Series9 Jan 12 2012, 06:56 PM
Hah ... I bought one dem der kits ... makes great wall art (my HPV-3B won't communicate with my 'puter).
I do like the moto on the pulley ... had to install mirrors to see it while I am driving.
I'm going to use an EDIS6 and it will talk to the MSII.
Does the MSII use a 60 -2 tooth wheel? I thought they used the 36 - 1 setup.
36-1
Posted by: Series9 Jan 12 2012, 06:57 PM
Sorry to hijack, but where did you find a longblock for that kind of money? Did I miss this somewhere?
I started looking and someone offered it. It's a core. I may have to rebuild the whole thing.
Posted by: rktmn247 Jan 12 2012, 07:40 PM
I finally crossed the thousand-dollar mark.
My $168 headers are back from the blaster and I've modified them for an O2 sensor.
POR-20 is on the way to coat them:
Did you add a bung in both headers? If so, would like to know why?
Posted by: Series9 Jan 12 2012, 07:59 PM
I finally crossed the thousand-dollar mark.
My $168 headers are back from the blaster and I've modified them for an O2 sensor.
POR-20 is on the way to coat them:
Did you add a bung in both headers? If so, would like to know why?
No, I welded up an unused small bung in the other one.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 12 2012, 08:03 PM
See, they both had small bungs for unknown reasons:
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Posted by: rktmn247 Jan 12 2012, 08:05 PM
Thanks Joe! I have the same headers and this thread is exactly what I'm attempting.
Posted by: Series9 Jan 13 2012, 12:40 PM
This is the deal I struck with Andy in exchange for the return of his /6 cooler.
A fresh cooler from Pacific Oil Cooler Service. It almost seems a shame to mod it for the 914.
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Posted by: Justinp71 Jan 13 2012, 05:15 PM
Nice Thread...
We did the first conversion on my 914 with a 2.7 back in 2000 for around $4k. They key was we found a running 2.7cis with 914-6 tin for $1500. I ran the motor for 8 years no problems, except it leaked a lot... it would have worked out a little better if we resealed the top end.
Also didn't run an oil cooler on it. It didn't need it unless it got real hot outside, but it would have needed it if it were tracked.
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