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Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 06:36 AM

Hello there I'm new to the forum and I would like to start of with a basic question about the feasibility of my (hopefully) 914-project.
I want to buy a 914 in the coming 1 or 2 months and to fix it up to a reasonable state. And afterwards I want to start on a custom interior including A/C for this machine (and an up-to-date electrical system, I don't trust that old stuff).
The problem is: I'm a student who is on a limited budget (around €11.000/US$13250 can expand to around €14000/US$16875). The original 914 engines seem a bit old for my tastes (gas guzzlers and a tax/insurance problem for a young student like me who lives in Belgium since we have very high taxes and fuel prices) so I would like to be able to exchange the engine and transmission for a newer 1.8 or 1.6 twin spark Alfa Romeo 4-banger (around 144 and 120 bhp respectively). I could use the original VW/Porsche engines but I want this to be my daily driver so I want an engine which is a bit up-to-date and passes car and emission-control here in belgium. And uses less gas and costs me less in tax. More bang for the buck as they say. Now would it be possible to do this ? (these engines come out of an Alfa 145 or 155 which are FWD cars) Would it be possible with my budget (I don't want to invest the entire budget, if it costs less it's better of course) ?

thanks in advance,
powaq

Posted by: 914Timo Jul 5 2004, 07:40 AM

Welcome powaq !!! It is nice to see more European here.

Well, AFAIK the engines from 145 or 155 Alfas are not so good. I could be wrong, but I think they are inline 4 cylinder engines and mounted perpendicular to the center line of the car. So, it will need a lot of work to make it fit in 914. It would be a lot of easier if the engine is parallel to the centerline of the car.

If I had a suitable 914 for conversion, I would use late model 1.8L engine + transmision combo from Audi A4 or from VW Passat.

Posted by: skline Jul 5 2004, 07:53 AM

On top of everything else, Alphas are not known for being problem free engines, I think you should make another choice in engines. Everyone I know with an alpha, only gets to drive it about 25% of the time, the rest of the time it is in the shop being repaired. There is a guy on this board doing an Audi 1.8T conversion, I would rather do that and I dont really care for Audi's either. You need to go with something that has a high availability of parts that are easily obtainable. Here in the US Chevy's are everywhere and parts are cheap. Look for something along those lines over there. I am sure Chevy is not the everywhere you look car. Good luck, check the board here for ideas, its a great resource. And welcome to the board.

Posted by: Qarl Jul 5 2004, 08:07 AM

I agree, Alpha engines are no good.

The VW engines can be very reliable.

The 1.8T engine from an Audi is very interesting too.

How about a Subaru boxer engine?

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 5 2004, 08:18 AM

Sigh. Alfa's reputation in the US is terrible. This is primarily because Americans are used to Honda-like durability and the ability to endure abuse. They're also not used to 30-year-old Italian electrical systems (which are, frankly, just as reliable as 30-year-old German electrics; they use mostly the same bits). Alfas are, when treated decently, very reliable cars. This is not something you'll get most Americans to believe, because they all know someone who's had a bad experience with them.

I have a great fondness for the Alfa four (I've owned two cars with that engine, and one with the even more fabulous V6). They're light for their power (220lbs for a 2.0L longblock, 150hp in street trim easily done). However, they're very tall, as are most other inline fours with DOHC heads. Assuming you can find someone to make you an adapter to mount the engine to the 914 transaxle (this would be much easier than trying to adapt the Alfa fwd transaxle to the 914), the next problem you'll face is simply getting the engine to fit in the engine bay. There's not a lot of vertical clearance. You'll also have to get pretty creative with an engine mount, and I'd worry about clearance for the very deep sump on these cars.

The V6 might be an easier engine to fit, and the AlfaSud boxer four would be the easiest of all to fit. You might even find it easier adapting the AlfaSud transaxle to the 914, though I can't offer any details. They never officially imported 'Suds to the US, and I've never seen one.

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 08:29 AM

The thing is that I need to find an Audi engine for cheap. Those Alfa engines can be had for cheap since second hand Alfa's aren't expensive, but buying a VW or Audi to use as a donor is a quite expensive I think. Unless someone knows a place where you can buy seperate engines (online or not online and in Europe) How's the mileage on Subaru engines ? It's quite bad isn't it ? (mileage is really a problem to me since I pay ±1,10 euro per litre here) Any recommendations on a subaru engine ?

Posted by: skline Jul 5 2004, 09:49 AM

Good suggestion on the Subaru engine, and I would think the gas mileage would be much better than even the Alpha. I have heard good things about the Subaru. That would be the engine of choice in Europe I would think. Do a search on the board for Subaru and see what you come up with. Good luck.

Posted by: skline Jul 5 2004, 09:54 AM

Or even better yet, I was out for a drive this morning in my Toyota Camry, it has the 3 liter V6 in it and it flat moves out and gets pretty good mileage. I keep thinking it would make a great motor for a 914. Lots of power and when you get on it, it actually sounds pretty good. Very impressive to drive. I hit 100 on the 405 this morning with out a problem and wasnt even doing 3k on the tach. Are Toyotas abundant over there?

Posted by: Chris H. Jul 5 2004, 10:04 AM

And the motor is almost maintenance free and is good for 250K easy. I was thinking of this one myself... There is an adapter plate available I think.

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 5 2004, 10:11 AM

The last of the Alfa flat four might be a good bet. I know there are adapters made for this engine to VW Porsche gearboxes. The last one made had twin overhead cams 16 valves and bosch injection. Kinda like Porsche would've made it and its normally aspirated. I think the 2.0 cloverleaf engine is 150hp and it sounds everybit as good as a Subaru.
This speedster rep was alfa powered....can't find the engine pics though

Posted by: Jeroen Jul 5 2004, 10:14 AM

Hey Powaq,

Good to see ya here. You're at the right place for your 914 plans

Like I told you on the Dutch forum, stick with the 2.0 fourbanger
Spend some money on tricking that out (check the Kit Carlson injection thread)

11K euro's should buy you a VERY good and pristine 914

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 5 2004, 10:18 AM

€11K would get you a six

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 5 2004, 10:50 AM

You should investigate the Rover V8 since it is comparable to the Buick 215 V8 and there are conversion kits for it. The problem with these engines in the US is these '60's engines did not survive aluminum corrosion. The Rover V8's were built up to the 80's? and used in Triumphs, Rover, MG's, TVR's.
Good luck!
Felix

Posted by: skline Jul 5 2004, 11:13 AM

When you say its comparable, it is the same engine with very little design change. The 215 Buick engine was sold to the british car maker in the late 60's or early 70's and they have been refining it since. The parts are all interchangeable still to this day. Its a light weight V8 engine with some great potential. However, he is looking for something with good gas mileage, those engines never got that great of mileage. Here in the US the parts are expensive and not that easily obtainable. There is a guy in the midwest that specializes in these engines and charges accordingly. You can either buy them from him or go to the dealer, either way its going to cost you bucks to buy the parts. Not that great of a choice in my opinion.

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 5 2004, 11:37 AM

Scott,

I think you missed the point. In EUROPE these engines are more available.

Don't you think an aluminum 215 with FI would get decent gas mileage in a 914?

Plus there is an adapter and people have done this conversion already, less reinventing to do.

Felix

Posted by: fiid Jul 5 2004, 12:15 PM

Modern Alfa engines are a different beast. You could probably do it. The original engines aren't particularly thirsty though. The Audi engine (and perhaps gearbox too) might also be a good choice - as are the Subaru motors. The only other thing you might consider it the Mazda rotary motor. These are most of the smaller engines that people are doing. I think the Audi 1.8 T motor would be screaming in a 914, but all these engines put out significantly more than stock, and are probably more efficient.

You are going to have a lot of power. The costs will hit you in ways you will not expect. If you are an engineer-type and have access to a welder, grinder and some cutting/bending stuff - you can piece together an engine motor mount bar quite cheaply, similarly you can buy fairly cheaply ($600ish) the adapter kit for the porsche tranny to the engine of your choice (Kennedy Engineered Products have these - call for info).

The costs will come in unexpected ways. It is likely that you will want to upgrade your brakes and suspension components - then you start to stare up these numbers:
Rear springs and coilover kit: $300
Koni sports (yellows) all around: $700
Mueller needle bearing setup: $800
Front torsion bars: $200-300 or so

Then you have other crap like rotors, ball joints, brake pads, etc.

If you want bigger brakes you will want to either go with the new rotors that Brad is making, or go 5 lug, both ways will likely cost you a similar amount of money.

If you want to rebuild your transmission that could cost you into the $1000s as well. The transmission is the breaking point with adding a lot more power to your car - so if you are going over 200 hp, you will want to either be very gentle with it, or change the transmission, which could eat your budget all by itself.

You should also think about the costs associated with putting a radiator in the car - which is a bit of work - more work will be required to get the heater working again, which you will probably need in your part of the world.

I think you can meet your goals, but you will probably want to try and pick a motor that is not outrageously powerful (the 1.8t might be in that category), and try to avoid going overboard with the upgrades.

The stock wiring is reasonably good, btw, so I would plan on doing a little service work, but not completely replacing it.

Posted by: fiid Jul 5 2004, 12:17 PM

I did not know Alfa made a flat four. That sounds awesome.

If I park my subaru in my garage - I have 4 flat-4s in there :-)

CCLINMELIKESFLATFOURS.

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 5 2004, 01:02 PM

Yeah they made a flat four from the 70's onward. Thats where Twin Dellorto downdraught carbs came from.
I know the AlfaSud, Sprint, 33, early 145+146 used flat fours.
Early cars ran Carbs and then FI -the Spyder used the twincam.

Theres an interesting webpage about putting the alfa flat4 into a 550 spyder replica
http://www.550-spyder.co.uk/alfa%20install.htm

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 5 2004, 01:17 PM

unfortunately, in most countries in europe, you pay car taxes by the displacement of your engine.
a 3.0L would cost you a fortune in taxes! that's why all the new european cars have those tiny engines ...

secondly, what you consider a "good" gas-milage here is NOT exactly what europeans would consider good.
30 miles/gallon is NOT a good gas-milage for any european country. gas is MUCH more expensive over there.

1.1 Euro for 1 Liter = 4.16 Euro for 1 US Gallon = $5.12 USD per US Gallon


just keep that in mind

that said, i think a modern 1.8L Audi or VW engine might be the way to go.
Andy

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 01:42 PM

Exactly, thanks for explaining that problem. If the taxes and fuel prices weren't a problem like that I would go with a 911 or some other newer car with a bigger engine.

The 1.8T Audi engine sounds a good idea, but only the 150 bhp version, I am not going over 150bhp (taxes and insurance problem again). If I could find a 914/6, could I modify the engine to make it a bit more "modern" and fuel-efficient, or is the only thing I could add a fuel injection system ? I don't think I want to fiddle with things like new cylinder-heads and advanced electronic stuff like engine management (unless these are easy to implement, I know nothing about this stuff).

PS: The 1.7 flat-4 Alfa engine would be ideal but I'm afraid it's a bit of a beast with fuel
PPS: V8 is NOT an option (for reasons stated above) and I will not go over 2.0 liters of displacement.

thanks for the response already !

Posted by: dmenche914 Jul 5 2004, 01:56 PM

Have you considered an electric conversion, great gas milage (ha ha) Some places offer tax rebates for electric cars. Performance can be good (although range is an issue) there is at least one member on this list which has an electric 914.

I cannot think of a gas engine conversion that will get much better milage than a stock motor, my old 1.7 got 30 mpg, and the 2.0 liter got about 25 mpg (all driven hard)

dave

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 5 2004, 02:04 PM

Yes this is true....mine was tres thirsty. But nice.
1.8T audi engine is 180hp?

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 02:09 PM

Electric ? Funny
Seriously though between 25 and 30 mpg (30 mpg = 7,9 litres/100km right ?) would be good enough for me. Anyone know If 914/6's are easy to find in europe? If I stay with the original engine I would like the 6-cyl version.

thesey914 The 1.8T engine is available in 150, 180 and 225 bhp (in Europe), there could be an ever higher spec 250 or something but I'm not sure.

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 5 2004, 02:15 PM

1.8T 150hp.....Ofcourse - I was thinking of the TT (180), but the A3 is 150hp
I reckon you could get 25-30 out of your type 4.
The sixes come up for sale now and again but are fairly rare. But why not wait?

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 5 2004, 02:17 PM

powaq,
Sounds like you are close to choosing what you want. I am curious what you like about the 914 such that you want to work through the challenges of replacing the powerplant and interior? If it's just mid-engine and open top appeal, why not find an Fiat x 1/9 or Lancia Scorpion (US)? They may have some modern powerplants you can more easily transplant and are
Felix

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 02:21 PM

We even have a 150bhp version of the TT in Belgium ! Yeah, why not wait ? Don't know, I wanted to start working on it this summer I've got a lot of time now (no school ) University starts again the end of september. I'm eyeing a 914 right now, but I don't know what engine it is. I mailed the seller to ask him what engine it has. It's for sale for €6900 a bit much IMO but it does look to be in good condition.

25-30 mpg out of a Type-4. Is that with "conservative driving" or "spirited driving" ?
Is it easy to add fuel injection to a type-4?

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 5 2004, 02:22 PM

1 US Gallon = 3.79 Liter
1 Mile = 1.61 km

so

30 Miles per Gallon = 48.3 km per Gallon = 48.3 km per 3.79 Liter =
7.85L/100 km

which is kind of on the upper end. if you don't drive much, that'll probably work for you, but i would rather invest in a newer engine and get something closer to 6L/100km ...

Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 5 2004, 02:23 PM

most of them came with FI ...

Andy

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 02:27 PM

Emission is not THAT big of a problem I think (less than the US) and I also think it doesn't matter that much for a car of that age. They are less strict about it.

What appeals me ? I think it's a combination of 1. the open top, 2. I actually like the looks of the thing and 3. It's a Porsche man. What's better than saying to some girl "hey I drive a Porsche" ?

And if I indeed buy one I will of course keeop you guys informed (and ask a lot of questions ) !

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 5 2004, 02:28 PM

OK as you can see I don't know a lot about them (yet).

Posted by: fiid Jul 5 2004, 03:16 PM

Just to be clear:

American gallons are not the same as british gallons.

Have you considered a turbo diesel?? Might be fun. The Rover 220SDi motor ought to light things up pretty well :-)

There are some great 1600 or so engines available in europe too - maybe a Peugeout/Citroen engine, or maybe one of the zetecs from the focus. Out to give you more than enough power, smooth running, good efficiency, and uh - what else do you need?

There is an older 1.8 subaru motor that can be gotten for cheap as well. It puts out about 130 - 150hp (depending on if you go turbo or not). It's very small - fits in a 914 engine bay with room for passengers (not really).

What MPG do you guys get out of well running 1.7s with stock FI??

Posted by: Jeroen Jul 5 2004, 03:27 PM

Powaq,

Make sure you ask a lot of questions BEFORE you buy a 914
These cars have way too many rust boobytraps, that are hard to spot for someone without some 914 knowledge...

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 5 2004, 03:38 PM

that's why i used 3.79 for the conversion and not 4.55 ...

Andy

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 5 2004, 04:45 PM

a ROVER in a 914 or a DIESEL????

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 6 2004, 12:59 PM

Well I just began my crusade to finding a 914. If I can find a 914/6 I will take that if not I would consider an engine conversion. Any of the dutch or german members could tell me where the hell I could find an, for example, Audi 1.8t engine ? Newly orderd engines would be extremely expensive no ? And a wrecked audi or something can easily cost, say, 2-3000 euros .
I placed some adds today and sent a few emails around asking about 914 for sale, let's hope I find one because the are damn hard to find around here (I've never even seen a 914 one the road in my life!)

And yeah a diesel is not a bad idea good mileage, cheap fuel and lots of torque.

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 6 2004, 03:29 PM

A diesel is not a bad idea in a modern diesel. Great MPG and tons of torque if its a turbo. I really like the way they drive. Spades of low end grunt.
It is not, however, a fitting engine for a historic sports car like a 914

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 7 2004, 06:07 AM

Well, I found one in the Netherlands. It's a 2.0 4-cil. Now a simple question: it seems to be an import from California so it probably has a good body. That's a plus. But if the engine is an American one it probably has lower output (due to emission regulation I think?). Is it as simple as increasing the compression ratio from 1:7.6 to 1:8.0 to get to euro standards ?
The car is Silver metallic one (nice color) and it costs €4300. Seems allright to me. I'll probably go and take a look at it this weekend.

Posted by: Jeroen Jul 7 2004, 07:03 AM

Hey Powaq,

Which car did you find???
Be extra carefull... this is a tricky price range and you could very well buy a shiny piece of rust...

If you wan't you can call me and I'll give you some pointers on where/what to look for

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: fiid Jul 7 2004, 09:29 AM

I noticed that! Good job! Just wanted to make sure everyone else knows that . It's confused the heck out of me for a while :|.

I used to wonder why some cars available in the UK have twice the gas milage of some american cars.

The Rover SDi engine I believe gets an average of 60mpg (british g). And it will still pull 150mph.

Posted by: Bigbohr Jul 7 2004, 01:56 PM

Nice to see another belgian on the 914 site.
Unfortunately can't help you much since I've been living abroad for 10 years, last 7 years in Texas. If you live on the flemish side, I've seen a couple of times a 914 for sale in a paper called Koopjeskrant. You may also be able to find other parts incl engines in there.
If you get your car send me your phone number and I'll try to drop by next time I visit.

By the way, take Jeroen's offer and let him help you with buying the car. It's easy to buy a piece of junk with these non-galvanized cars.

Good luck!
Johan

Posted by: MattR Jul 7 2004, 08:31 PM

I cant even get up to 20 on the 405...

Posted by: street legal go-kart Jul 7 2004, 10:26 PM

i may be brain dead but has the price of 914-6's evaluated that much in europe?
a clean example converted to an early 2.0 or 2.2 six seems to be exactly what you are looking for.
less headaches and it has the correct engine for the car.

jt

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 8 2004, 01:10 AM

I have always thought the 1NZ-FE 1.5 liter from Toyota Yaris/Echo would be a fun engine for 914. Its one of the lightest 1.5 liter engines ever made and makes 105 ft lbs of torque and 108 HP. The engine in my 2000 lb Toyota Echo returns consistent 40 mpg combined Highway and City and thats with 16 inch wheels and fat tires. I have turned in 48 mpg highway once. Its got a pretty wide power band for a 1.5 becuase of VVTi feature. Lots of tuner parts for the engine as well - including superchargers and turbo's.

Easy to find low mileage examples of this engine from crashed cars for $500-$600.

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 8 2004, 08:10 AM

Hey,

I found a 2.0 in Den Haag. If I hear something back from the seller I'll PM you (He is a bit slow in answering his email). Johan I already checked the Koopjeskrant, I found a few 914's ranging from 9000 to 12000 euros. A bit insane if you ask me.

I was also thinking about engine conversions again. Would this even be legal in Europe ? I think you need to get your car homologated and it would be considerd a new car. Dunno. Anybody know something about this ?

Posted by: Jeroen Jul 8 2004, 08:29 AM

Hey Powaq,

Den Haag is pretty close to where I live (I live south of Rotterdam, about 45 mins from Den Haag)
Who is the seller?

If you like, and depending on when you are going to look at the car, I could come with you or you can stop at my house first, so I can show you some pointers on where and what to look for.

You can also check http://www.marktplaats.nl
Select cars, then Porsche and search for 914
There are 3 cars posted there that I know are very good (although a bit more expensive between 8 and 9K and they are further up north - near Arnhem)

As for engine conversions... I don't know about the specifics in Belgium, but here in the Netherlands, you can do any conversion you like without a new homologation if you keep the same number of cilinders. If the number of cilinders changes, you need a new homologation.

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 8 2004, 08:46 AM

on the displacement issue and the related costs, how would the authorities know what the true displacement was with a case marked for a 1.7 if you went with a t-4 engine? how strict is the visual inspection of the car? would emissions play a part in licencing the car?

kevin

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 8 2004, 08:57 AM

http://www.marktnet.nl/ad.asp?Id=46430 This is the one I sent an email to. The name used in the email is Arjen Kuyvenhoven.
8000 to 9000 is really out of my budget. I want to go 6000 euro.

Posted by: Bigbohr Jul 8 2004, 10:14 AM

Heb jij geluk zeg ... het is een "harde auto". Ik hoop voor jou dat dat betekent dat hij hard rijdt.

72 = tailshifter tranny

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 8 2004, 10:26 AM

Yeah, I really wonder what "harde auto" means . They DO have weird sayings over there. What do you mean with tailshifter ? Is that a good or bad thing ?

Posted by: Bigbohr Jul 8 2004, 10:42 AM

I don't think it's necessarily bad but a side-shifter would be better. People with a tail shifter please chime in ... (I have a side shifter).

The shift linkage connects to the back of a tailshifter (72 and earlier 914's). Makes shifting a bit more imprecise, and you need to pay more attention to your bushings and adjustments compared to the side shifter.

From 73 onwards 914's were fitted with a side-shifter. The shifting linkage connects on the (lower) side of the tranny. Shifting is more precise.

It seems like you're interested to get a modern drivetrain in the car so a sideshifter may go better with that. It's pretty easy to get a used side shift tranny in the US. Costs maybe $200-$300. Over there I don't know ...

Posted by: Jeroen Jul 8 2004, 01:29 PM

"harde auto" means as much as "rust free" (you don't pay extra for the rust )
Did the seller give you any info on the engine and transmission
Like mentioned, 72 means a 1.7 fuel injected engine and a tailshifter transmission
The side shifter tranny is often called a "2 liter bak" in Dutch.

A side shifter does shift better (less vague) than a tailshifter.
Still a lot depends on the shift bushings etc.

Don't rush into anything you're gonna regret.
You seriously need to educate yourself about these little cars
Go drive a couple. Try different ones. Don't be lured in by the price (a low price often has a reason)

You'll often find that the owners/sellers know as little or even less than you do about these cars and they will come up with all sorts of bullshit stories and make-believe-upgrades which are usually down-grades or crappy repairs...

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Powaqqatsi Jul 8 2004, 02:29 PM

Nope he didn't mention anything about the transmission (I never asked anything about it..). But I'm still waiting for his reply to my question if I could come over and take a look at it.

A question I have here: the specs page on this site (914 Info) says that there never was a 1972 2.0 4-cyl ? Production of this type started in 1973, right ?

All I can do for now is wait for answers. I also found a few cars in Belgium, inlcuding a six-cylinder for 6500 euro, the only problem with that car is that it seems to be disassembled for I reason I do not know (yet). But the seller does claim that it has a re-build engine. Is there any way of knowing whether it is indeed rebuild or not ? Just look at the "cleanness" of the engine ?

Posted by: Jeroen Jul 8 2004, 02:40 PM

Nope... Unless he has an invoice for the work done on the engine, you won't know
Know that any 6 cylinder will have a mileage of between 1:5 and 1:7 (1 liter to x km's)
Also, if you need to rebuild that engine, count on doubling the price of the car

cheers,

Jeroen