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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:20 PM

So making it official I am making this my one v8 progress thread, I will possibly post questions about the conversion elswhere, but my progress will go here.
Anyways, the story..
Knowing that I needed a new engine, I searched for some conversions, finding a few, then falling through, I ask about a v8 conversion, two guys here generously said that they will help and sell me some of their stuff. Together I will be able to make a nice conversion on a very limited budget. Here I will take the time to thanks Scott K and Steve H for what they have done and what they will do.

Anyways with that, I then went to pick and pull and found a 305 engine from some later car. We look all around and cant find an engine number.. Hey, its a v8, we need to pull something, Lets just do it (im very glad I said that..)
We then get the engine home and I plop off the valve covers and find that it has 350 heads(via the number), hmm.. Interesting... So I go and find the block number look it up. Sure enough, its a 350 block. Well thats not enough for me, I take it apart check the bore, theck the stroke, Yuppers 4in bore, something or other stroke, Yup its definately a 350! Whats not known is why it was in a 305 car.. So checking the pistons dad says there high compression, I wouldnt know any better.
So then talking about radiators, Mike Mueller kindly offers me his (very large) aluminum radiator for cheep. I take him up on his offer and drive to his house to see his garage packed with neet toys! Thanks mike for the walk through! We enjoyed it!
So we go home, and later in the week(yesterday) I start taking off the pistons, I get one off and clean it, trying to find an overbore number.. Cant fine one Check the bearings, they have .0005 on them. No clue what that means...
Anyways, while taking out the rest of the pistons dad stares at something for a second, laughs, and shows me that it is a 4 bolt main. So, now where very curious to why it was in a regular family car.. 84 or such.

Anyways, enough with the gabber, heres my list of pics..


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:20 PM

newish alternator


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:21 PM

block


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:22 PM

Bearing wear, lifter dirt


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:23 PM

Anyone decifer this? front of block.. inside


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:23 PM

cam.. anyone have coments on it?


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:24 PM

carb.. after the engine rolled over on it.. (Ya lets put the engine on the hooser tire!! That'll hold it!)


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:25 PM

crank wear.. gona have to overbore or whatever they call it.. to the crank at least.


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:26 PM

Cylander wear.. Not bad

Oh ya.. 1500th post.. I feel like a whore...


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:27 PM

Stock exhaust, I think I'll use it for now. Give me a little more room to play with.


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:28 PM

Newish fuel pump. I think I'll use it! Get rid of some electrical...


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:29 PM

Head...


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:29 PM

Gota lap the heads or get a valve job (tehehe)


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:30 PM

heads and intake manifold


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:30 PM

Dirty piston


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:31 PM

Anyone want me to detail their car?

Clean piston


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:32 PM

there so many of them!


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Posted by: drew365 Jul 8 2004, 07:32 PM

Good luck Andrew. Looks like you just accounted for your spare time for a while.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:33 PM

Sexy aint it!

radiator with 944 twin fans.. I think the'll work fine


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:34 PM

Its interesting.. I like the texture of where the rust was better than the pure chrome!!

Too bad it takes like 20 years to make that kind of texture...


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 07:36 PM

And finally valves!

whew.. Sorry andy/brad, admin team... Oh heck its only 2megs..

Thanks drew

Andrew


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Posted by: MattR Jul 8 2004, 07:47 PM

It appears to be a GM code .

Nice find! Keep the pics coming!

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 08:02 PM

The next series of pics I could post would be my flare progress.. but im not gona do that yet...

Andrew

Posted by: 86motoman Jul 8 2004, 08:09 PM

Here is a site for all of your chevy numbers. http://www.mortec.com

Posted by: smrz914 Jul 8 2004, 08:17 PM

Andrew you will probably have to use an elecrtic pump depending on how you mount the alternator and water pump. BTW very nice find on the engine. And if you do use a electric pump put it up front.

Posted by: skline Jul 8 2004, 08:23 PM

Ok, First off, the pistons are standard GM pistons, the cross hatching on the cylinders tells me it has been bored at least once, but not worn much since, the black on teh camshaft tells me that it doesnt have that many miles on it40 to 50k, the block is for sure a factory 4 bolt main block so it is a 350, the numbers you were referring to mean the engine was made in 4 of 83, what year car did you say it was in? If you give me the number stamped on the front pad on the block in front of the head and behind the alternator, I can tell you what the engine was originally installed in and with what options ie: HP rating, transmission, with or without A/C and so on. Also give me the casting number off the head and I can see what that is also. If they are 305 heads, you got lucky, they have the smaller chambers for higher compression, mine are 55cc, stock they run 58cc. Mine have been modified with larger valves which made the chambers smaller. Anything I can do to help you get it up ad going, let me know.

Scott

Oh BTW, I worked for Chevrolet back in the 70's as an automatic transmission line mechanic.

Posted by: skline Jul 8 2004, 08:33 PM

Here is the fuel pump I am going to install. It was graciously donated by a club member. You cant run the stock fuel pump with the water pump or alternator mounted the way Renegade does.


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 8 2004, 09:12 PM

I cant run the stock alternator the way its mounted from the factory, alrighty thats peachy with me.. Why cant I run the stock fuel pump? Its so perfect... (whine)


Scott..
The engine was in a 84 caprice... no clue why.
Engine number.. ok C5F368754 VO219TJH

Heads
333882.....74-80...350/400......76cc chambers

Engine block
3970010....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro
3970010....327.....69....2...Trucks and industrial
3970010....350...69-80...2 or 4

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=13870&st=40&hl=350

Need anything else? I'd like to know what the numbers are for it..


Andrew

Posted by: smrz914 Jul 9 2004, 12:23 AM

Andyrew,

Tell us how you are mounting the water pump and the alternator, then we can tell you why or why not you can run a stock fuel pump.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 9 2004, 12:27 AM

I dont know how im mounting it. However Scott and Steve have the parts for me to mount it is how im going to mount it.

Posted by: thesey914 Jul 9 2004, 12:51 AM

Also known as 'Patina'

Posted by: skline Jul 9 2004, 07:38 AM

I will find out today what those numbers mean and post them for you. The mounts I am sending you mount it off to the side both the alternator and the water pump, it will block where the fuel pump mounts. Trust me, I tried everything to make it not and there is just no way.

Posted by: Brett W Jul 9 2004, 07:56 AM

Good luck with your project.

If you have to go with a different crank might step up to a 400 crank and build a 383. Or step down to a 327 crank. I might be able to hook you up with a set of TRW Forged 11.0:1 327 pistons for pennies. Replace the cam with something with a little more hit. Call up Summit and snag a cam with some balls and really scare the neighbors.

With a little time and a little extra money you can really make a sweet motor. Might try and find a set of aluminum heads on ebay or at a local machine shop for cheap too.

Scott, I assume you are aware that the fuel pump you have will be loud as hell? We ran a few of those on race cars and they are noisy. You may have to fab some sort of isolator to cut the noise. When my Holley blue was mounted in the trunk I could hear the pump over then engine at idle.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 08:51 PM

Progress pics from yesterday.
Got the engine completely appart, took out the lifters (that was a serious job... they where in dere good)

Anyways, enough with the talk, heres the action.


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 08:51 PM

crank


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 08:52 PM

Out of curiosity, is this timing chain stock?


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 08:53 PM

Lifter w/o cleaning, Look at the wear, Can I still use these?


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 08:54 PM

Mental note for myself, The rip on the left is the back of the engine. the right is the front of the engine.


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 08:58 PM

Got scotts parts today

Funny, the UPS guy comes out and has a clamp in his hand, asks if it goes with our stuff, Dad notices that its a clamp, says maybe, but tells him he can keep it.

Scott, I got everything you listed in the box.
I will list them, and if anything is missing, let me know and I'll call ups. The box was pretty ratty when I got it, but the parts where fine. Im sure the guys moving the box figured it was like 10 lbs, but then lifted it and it was Woops 50...
Lol, Everything looks good though, I'll get some pics.

Thanks Scott!

Andrew

(now Steve... OUT of curiosity, how far are you? I still have to rebuild my engine, so I have a while..)

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 12 2004, 09:16 PM

Ok, here a pic of the parts I got from scott. I will get another (amost complete) batch of parts from Steve.

Scott, let me know if there is any major parts missing here, a couple of clamps I dont care about.

Also Scott, did you find out any details about that engine?

Thanks

Andrew


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Posted by: boxstr Jul 12 2004, 10:12 PM

No the rip is on the front of the engine and the other end is ???
CCLINICOULDHAVEHAD A V8

Posted by: skline Jul 12 2004, 10:17 PM

Glad they arrived and it looks like its all there, I asked them at the counter if I should put more tape on it and they said no, it will be fine, the box was nice when it left here, its the box for my subwoofer. Anyway, it looks like all the stuff is there, The engine numbers you gave me match the car you mentioned, it is a 350/4 barrel, with A/C and an automatic transmission out of a full size sedan. So that was a numbers matching car. As for your timing chain, yes, that is a stock double roller and no, I would not reuse the lifters. I would replace them with the cam you buy. If you want a good cam and lifter set without spending a lot on a HP grind and name, pick up a melling Z28 cam and lifters, you could probably get them for about $80.00 and get nice performance out of it. Otherwise, go for the Rod Simpson cam or ask Renegade what they use and run one of those. The idea is to get one that puts the torque in the upper RPM range. The clamps I sent are the ones I used to run the hoses down under the car. If you bend the lip on the one side out, you can go across the hose and screw it right into the floor. I have more of these if you need them. I just grabbed a handful and threw them in there so you could see.

Posted by: skline Jul 12 2004, 10:27 PM

Whatever you do, unless you want to spend lots on a 930 or G50 trans, do not use a 400 crank and build a 383, that would put out way too much torque and you would rip your trans apart the first run. I built a few of those engines and the cheap one I built put out over 450 pounds of torque. The roller one I built made 535 pound of torque with 475 HP. I may build one for mine later after I aquire a transmission that will handle it. That is what the 350 in my garage is for. But that is later on. Aluminum heads would be a plus as they are a lot lighter, but you are trying to do this on a budget, I would stick with a set of 305 heads with the smaller chambers and get larger valves installed or just use the heads you have and get used to the V8 performance first.

As for the fuel pump, I had heard they were a bit loud, I was thinking of using the stock 914 fuel pump mounts is I can find another one and using them, they are about 1.25 inches of solid rubber that I can bolt to the body and then mount the pump to that. Hopefully that will quiet it down a little.

Posted by: Brett W Jul 12 2004, 11:28 PM

I know the 383 is a great torque monster. You are righht he would probably splatter the tranny at the drop of a clutch.

AS far as the fuel pump they may help alot but it will still suprise you when you hear it. It literally resonates through the body.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 13 2004, 01:13 AM

My stock pump is pretty loud, and the carb one I had was even louder...

Up in the front trunk it should be better... I have the stock rubber mounts, but there like 1/2 an in.. Hopefully they'll work fine. Anyways...

Do I need a special fuel pump? Or will anything work?

Im watching ebay and there alot on there..

Like this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42604&item=7910747475&rd=1

Would that one work?

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 15 2004, 03:39 PM

I just droped off the engine and everything off at an engine shop. They'll be hot tanking everything, boring the block, and getting me a new crank, and a master engine kit. Total for this is $620. I'll put it together. Where did I get the money? Well my 4 cylander is going to be gone (probably) monday, and I'll have just enough money to pay for this, and a box of root beer.

Im going to call Comp cams today and see what they recommend me as far as a cam goes.

Andrew

Posted by: skline Jul 15 2004, 05:22 PM

Hey Andrew, you can use the fuel pump you used with your carbs before, it should put out about 3 or 4 PSI which is all you need for your car. As for the master rebuild kit, they should let you pick which cam you want, see if they do, then just pick one that puts the torque in the upper RPM range.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 15 2004, 06:22 PM

Scott, I aint usin that fuel pump.... Ok, maybe to get it running, but I dont want to use that thing. From what I've heard it does not work very well. It would be terrible for a v8, but im sure its fine for a 4.. Heck it even says its for a vw on it...

Scott, yes they are letting me pick my cam, but they dont really make a cam that would tailor to my needs... Good fuel economy, low idle, high reving, mid range torque, continues to make power at top end. ect..

The cam that Compcams recomended me was like a race cam. pulls to 7k, max tq at 4.2k, All sounded good, but it looks like a race cam..

Gross Valve Lift 0.519 0.523
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 294 306

Anyways, Scott what are the specs of the cam that you have?

Andrew

Posted by: shoguneagle Jul 15 2004, 10:54 PM

Andyrew.

Well, first of all you are moving right along. Alas, the energy of youth. I really like what you are doing and how you are approaching the project. Keep the effort going. Get either the car done with all the configuration, or start building the engine and concentrate on that. You car will come together pretty much as we unfold the equipment to you.

The water pump is a reverse engine mounted with all the hoses and attachments to shorten the front part of the engine so it can fit into the 914 cavity. You may decide to use the electric water pump later but this could require modification to the engine harness around the switch area (addint relays and separating the load capacities away from the ignition switch.) This will probably have to be done to handle the fan load since they will be electric and probably have manual/ auto controls.

Time Frame: I have pulled the front suspension and delivered the promised goods to Brad; the 911 front suspension is being placed under the car as we speak. Next on the project is to pull the radiator and plumbing system so it can be delivered to you; the engine will follow including separating the parts into what goes to to you. I will be on the car this weekend for a day and half, then on to the engine. I am looking to get the entire radiator and plumbing out this weekend, and have made some progress on the engine removal. I will give you a reading later on the engine removal and delivery details.

We are currently finishing up the remod of the house and traveling between here and Flagstaff. The one thing I will promise is that you should get them in a timely manner.

Document your car build with pictures, running journal entries, and this thread. It will bring joy to you in later years. I really mean when you are eighteen or nineteen. Ah, enjoy the process and build it the best you can. You will make mistakes, but from what I have seen from the comments on this thread you have a lot of positive assistance

So much for now.

Steve Hurt

Posted by: dan10101 Jul 16 2004, 12:10 AM

Scott, Steve and all,
I really appreciate all the help, advice, and great deals on the parts for Andrew.

We're both learning a bunch along the way. It's been many years since I rebuilt my last small block Chevy. So I'm learning a few things over again.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/CurrentCatalog/HTML/128-169.asp

The Comp Cams person Andrew talked to recommended the 7th cam on the 2nd page (pg 130). Extreem Energy. It's easy to spot because the RPM range is 2800-7000. It's much too radical in my opinion.

The machine shop person recommended one closer to the 3rd one down on the same page 1300 to 5800rpm. I'm leaning toward this one unless it still has too much torque down low.

The rest of the engine will be very mild. 350ci 9 to 1 pistons, stock heads, alum dual plane manifold with stock q-jet carb (for now).
So is this cam too much for this mild engine?

Posted by: ChrisReale Jul 16 2004, 01:01 AM

Damn you guys, now I want a v8 conversion. Looks like a great project.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 19 2004, 10:16 PM

Well the 2.0 engine is gone now.

$700 is in my hands, and I've met a great 914 guy

Thanks Doug Wright, it was fun!

So my engine bay is a little empty. I'll be workin on the radiator setup.

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 21 2004, 05:18 PM

The heads where magnifluxed and checked for cracks, Said to be good, though the seats werent perfect, although runable. 70 bucks and I have basically perfect heads...

I think I'll do it.

Dads saying that he thinks we should destroke it... So that it revs higher.. and less tq.

Anyone else have an idea? how much higher will it rev? Given a high revving cam, and a performer rpm or such intake? Roller rockers are on the wishlist (christmas or something)


Andrew

Posted by: Neal Jul 21 2004, 05:51 PM

Andrew, I loved reading this post, keep it up. You seem to have a lot of surrogate fathers helping you, take advantage of this brain trust. You are very fortunate to have this help and keep up your humor it makes me smile.


Neal

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 22 2004, 06:27 PM

Thanks neal.

Alright guys I've been thinking (oh no... RUN! HE'S GOT A WELDER IN HIS HANDS, RUUUUUN!)

I've been thinking about chassi (hmm *checks word's spell check*Gah, stupid "s") chassis strength.. Yes this does include the welder.... I was thinking of adding some tubes in very percise locations to strengthen the car... I cant really put super good pics of it... But let me Tell you what im thinking.

Up front in the trunk, Since I will be cutting the inside fender wells, I think I should put a couple braces in there. Mainly, From the front A arm pick up point on both sides To some point on the firewall of the gas tank. Creating a triangle. Also from those two bars, possibly putting in one or two bars that go horizontally, one at the bottom by the a arms, and one in the middle, possibly holding a battery down the future when I decide to put the battery up front.

In the middle of the car.. I dont know, suggestions accepted, but I dont want this to be a tube car... I have ONLY a certain amount of welding skills.. lol. I want to add as much strength as possible while not cutting up the car or "ruining it" Maybe 10 bars max through the car. I do have plans of welding in the interior long stiffening kit. My longs are perfect, but this is a going to be a v8 car.. and you never know what that extra tq could do.

Next I heard some traffic about the rear suspension ears possibly flexing a tad.. I also saw the thread where they ran a tube from the front engine fire wall to the ear.. Looks good... Anything else in that compartment?

Also the rear trunk.. Somethin like this



Anyone have any advice? Where can I help this problem of "stress"? I get it enough myself...

Andrew

Posted by: Mike T Jul 23 2004, 08:28 AM

Maybe like this?


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Posted by: Andyrew Jul 23 2004, 10:11 AM

Thats what I hear is strong.. Picking it up at the trani mounts..
Thats a thought.

I think that still might give me enough room for a spare tire... I've got a space saver that I've got to fit back there.

What about the front? The interior?

Ehh?

Andrew

Posted by: Mueller Jul 23 2004, 10:45 AM

andrew, you have to be careful strengthening the car, you build the front and rear up too much and the middle gets all the abuse......I'd say just reinforce the trailing arm ear tabs like shown in the thread for Bill Pickerings 914/6 race car.....

there are V8 914s that have no additional bracing that have been on the street for years and years....

you can save some time and money by skipping all this unneeded bracing and move onto other projects on your car

in a few years when you are making some real money and if you are still enjoying the car, get a "proper" transmission that'll take abuse, then add a full cage with all the bracing to make a car you can beat on and not worry about a thing....

Posted by: MattR Jul 23 2004, 10:46 AM

Looks good!

I cant believe someone's trying to "detune" a sbc. Its like... well I dont have a good analogy, but it sounds funny.

Where did you get your space saver tire?

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 23 2004, 11:24 AM

Space saver spare, pick and pull, there was a 924S there.. 5 bucks...

hehe

Mike, Ya I know "To many projects".. But Im just thinking of what area will get the most abuse? I have an extra trani, and Im going to keep picking those up, plus half shafts.. I basically want to make the car be a... IF something breaks.. THIS is it.

making it the "failsave" or what not.

Matt, you know why im detuning it..

Besides... Im detuning it to rev, and for fuel economy. Actually im tuning it.. lol. Im forcing all the tq and hp up high.

STILL dont know what cam im going to use.. and Im probably picking it up today!!

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 23 2004, 11:55 AM

Im thinking 6k is my rev limit.

I just dont want it to fall off at 5k, I want it to pull to 6k.

Oh ya, its a four bolt main... and I plan on putting roller rockers and possibly destrokeing the crank.. 327 or something...

That should help, right?

Andrew

Posted by: Mike T Jul 23 2004, 12:07 PM

My car is an autocross car. No street. So the bracing is a bit extreme for what you would need on a street car.

Here is the front bracing along with the radiator setup.

If you want to destroke your engine the 327 crank would be a good cost effective choice. The 3.25" stroke pistons are available cheap from Summit or other suppliers.

If you wanted to go with a 3.00" stroke and make a 302 you'd have to find a large journal crank and that would cost more as would the pistons.


Mike T


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Posted by: Mueller Jul 23 2004, 01:03 PM

Hey Mike,

is that a custom radiator or a one from Renegade/Rod Simpson??

Posted by: dan10101 Jul 25 2004, 04:09 PM

Well, here is the cam that was suggested by the Machine shop.
Now that I'm comparing specs, it seems a bit odd in the Adv Dur vs the Dur @ .050.
None of the cams I'm looking at have that much variation.
Is this totally wrong for our purposes?

It's an Elgin "Pro Stock" Cam
These are the specs on the box.
DURN DUR. @ .050 CAM LIFT Valve Lift Lobe Centers
IN Ex IN Ex IN Ex IN Ex IN Ex
291 291 218 218 0.303 0.303 0.455 0.455 105 115

Thanks,
Dan

Posted by: Mike T Jul 26 2004, 10:35 AM

I bought it used so I'm not sure but believe it's a Simpson. Seems to work well. Temps at this weekend's autocross were never over 200°. It's not a street car and temps were mid 70's. Never had the car running for more that 20 mins at a time. Sufficient for autocross I think.

Mike T

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:01 PM

Heres an update...

Got the parts from Steve (very much earlyer than I expected. Thanks!!!)

I have the bottom end assembled, the top end... well, silly me, I cant fine a stupid head bolt.. I assume I wont find one at the local flaps... So Im just going to hit pick and pull.

Engine's painted... I'll paint, or clean the carb (depending on how bad it is..) and paint the air cleaner junk black with silver accents..

Should look pretty darn good!

Heres a buncha pics.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:15 PM

The twin (huge) fans that I got from Steve... I think I'll just use one.. there 15in...


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:21 PM

hehe... I know im going to be shot down for this one. But here goes nothing.

Steve dropped off this front hood, and honestly, I really like it! It will create a pull from the front hood, and it will allow for air to escape smoothly. Later on I'll cut the fender wells, and reinforce that area because of the strength lost from cutting the fenderwells.. But currently I think this will be perfect. Its a perfect design for my radiator and fan setup as well.

I will be putting a grill in the opening, adding another layer of fiberglass to fill in any trouble area's, and for strenth, and finishing so it looks nice, and painting it all body color.

ITS FUNCTIONAL..... Im no ricer..

Let me know what you think.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:24 PM

Adapter plate for the later model v8 (86 and up to the LS1) that will be for sale on ebay or whatnot soon. also the rails that hold the two radiator fans together.. Dont think im gona use it.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:27 PM

Cool trick stuff.

Harmonic balancer from renegade or whatnot.

and hehe, remote oil filter, which I will tap into the lines and add a oil cooler, Yup, I dont want any over heating problems, my big ars aluminum radiator, big old fans, and this oil cooler, should prevent any of that problem. Besides all the engine stuff is clean, hot tanked, and everything should flow very nicely.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:28 PM

Water lines.. gona paint tomorrow or so.. (yes, if you dont know, I like keeping things clean..)

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:31 PM

Boring single exhaust... One cat, one truck muff.. first few miles im going to do will be taking it down to a nice muff shop, and having them take out the cat. Shouldnt be that hard, not that much money.

Later on I'll spend some cash and do a nice, cool sounding dual exhaust. We have some interesting idea's....


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Posted by: shoguneagle Aug 3 2004, 09:31 PM

Andyrew, you make the old parts look good. Hope they meet and exceed your needs along with being functional. It was good to meet you and your father. Enjoyed your car and what you are doing with it. Glad the parts are being used instead of rusting away.

I know you have a few holes to fill in parts needs. Let me know what they are. It appears I will be getting out of the 914 business until we move. Need to cut down on my P-Car reserves and get back involved when I get moved.

Steve Hurt

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:34 PM

Alternator mount, and "custom" alternator... I'll just use my basically new alternator from pick and pull, spins better.

In the background is the smog pump... Can you guess what Im going to do with that?..

save it incase the Man says that all cars have to be smogged.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:36 PM

OH er.. ya..

Also my 9in Kevlar flywheel... Some interesting wear marks, but asside from those, it looks new.

I'll save it for later, when I get a beeefy trani.. I'll use the 7in clutch Scott gave me for the time being.. mainly so that I break my clutch, and not my trani.

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:40 PM

Steve, so far, it looks like the only thing I need are the clutch extender (you have... Could use it in a week, or so, We'll drive down there... gota get outa the house), and a throwout bearing. I tried calling Rod simpson (cheapest) today but the guy didnt answer, so I'll call him tomorrow morn.

Next on my list

Box of parts.. Reverse fittings.. some bolts, whatnot.. thermostat stuff, and a water pump!!!!


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 09:42 PM

And last, but appropriately not least, is the engine mount bar..

Which I like.. Much better than the clamp two U clamps on with some square tubing, and go...

Andrew


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 3 2004, 10:51 PM

Dont install the harmonic balancer until you get the spacer that goes behind it. It should be cheap from Renegade. It appears to be the only thing missing in your pics. If the balancer was installed on another engine (I know it was).. he may have not pulled off the spacer that was sitting behind it.

B

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 11:16 PM

Alright, Im sure Steve still has it on his engine.. If not, im going to get a throwout bearing from RSH, so I'll get one from him...(he seems to have the cheapest parts)

And ya, I actually was going to ask about that spacer... Thanks.

Andrew

Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 3 2004, 11:40 PM

Buy the throwout bearing from KEP. This is where everyone gets them from. Rod works from his house (no/low overhead) so yes his prices will be a tad cheaper than RHS.


B

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 3 2004, 11:51 PM

I would... but I wana get this thing runnin soon. Theres a ford focus dyno day at a local dyno shop the 15th, (friend of ours has couple focus's, and dad occasionally posts on their bbs, making them jelous with high hp numbers and such. ) And I really want to get it on the dyno and get some tune time... Our Gtech just isnt working right.. (bout the only thing it does is 0-60 and 1/4 mile.. Hp numbers are inaccurate, and lateral/continuous g's just plain dont register)

Since RSH is down LA I could have it in my hands, maybe fri.. That is if he has the parts on shelf.

But if he doesnt have everything, I'll call KEP (Thats Kennedy, right?? Or?)

Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 3 2004, 11:57 PM

Kennedy is closer to us than RSH.. but feel free to buy from whomever.

KEP supplies these guy's with 90% of what you see being sold.

B

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 4 2004, 12:47 AM

Aight fine. I'll give kennedy a call in the morn.. I thought they where located in like tennesee or somethin..

Posted by: skline Aug 4 2004, 08:45 AM

Nope, they are in Lancaster and the parts are usually shipped out same day and being in California, you should have them next day and their prices are lower. Anytime I order from them, I have it next day. They are great.

Posted by: soloracer Aug 4 2004, 09:44 AM

I agree, KEP has been awesome to deal with. Hobart Kennedy is a very patient man and has spent some time on the phone with me going over parts that I needed.

Andyrew, I like the hood idea and was considering something like that for my car although with more of a rounded/contoured look that you see on cars with a similar arrangement for added downforce. By this I mean they have a they appear to have a duct that goes all the way to the radiator instead of just a hole that looks straight at the firewall. I would think the sealed duct type set up would prevent water from collecting in the trunk when it rains. Does this make sense?

I like this thread idea of yours and think I will start one as well - although I think my progress is going to be much, much slower than yours

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 4 2004, 12:20 PM

Aight, im gona give KEP a call.

I'll try to get a betta pic of the hood.. But my radiator "looks" straight at the hole, therefore the fans would be blowing the air straight twards the opening (I have a monster radiator that I have to put in at a huge angle... and there is a reversed scoop that raises the front one in.. I might put a small, small lip on the edge to give it a tad more turbulence.. but then again, I might now.

I'll see if I can get betta pics of it.

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 7 2004, 09:26 PM

today was...

A productively bad day... lol

Im quite positive I wont get it running for the dyno day... Mostly because I dont have everything...

So.. Incase someone is following price wise.. I made some larger purchases the past couple days (read ouch)

So, Kragen was 70 dollars for... erm carb rebuild kit, oil, wires, spark plugs.. and some other stuff.

Home depo was 40 bucks for some tools (little tools) and some metal for the radiator shrowd (more on that later)

Ebay got expensive today.. But I feel I made out fairly well

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7914176910
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7914966961

Ahh look at that ebay motors item number.. Isnt it satisfying?

Pics later..

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 9 2004, 12:13 AM

Oh I guess I could post some pics..

Dad rebuild the carb (Thanks!) yesterday,

And I have been workin on the lousy radiator shrowd stuff... Ahh I just have to make up my mind about a few things.. do some final cuts, do some painting, put the radiator in, seal everything up good with some expando foam, and Im good for paint..

Then I'll be running the lines for the radiator, working on doing some fiberglassing.. ahh the joys are endless...

Anyways.. heres some pics.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 9 2004, 12:20 AM

In the above pic, the top two pieces are for the side of the radiator, they have L brackets so the radiator is supported. and I have little L brackets to support the shrowds.

This pic has my poor excuse for welding the ac thing in.. Its lots of tack welds.. I'll use some sealer to seal it up after I por 15 it, then I'll paint. It also has the bar that will hold the radiator in place, I'll make a clamp that will bolt onto the bar, and will clamp to the radiator, holding it firmly in place.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 9 2004, 12:23 AM

And heres the hole... Not that big, but it should work.


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Posted by: Andyrew Aug 9 2004, 12:26 AM

And here's the 916 bumper that will have its hole fiberglasses to the hole of the car, providing all the air that goes into the hole will go into the radiator and not through the air pocket between the bumper and the front nose of the car...

Yes I have to trim it a little.. It was made for flares. (I have flares...)


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Posted by: smrz914 Aug 9 2004, 12:44 AM

Andyrew,

I would have to vouch against the expanding foam. It's a royal pain to clean up. I used it on my first radiator and when i switched radiators it took me twice as long to change it out b/c of the clean up i had to do. I suggest finding another way. take more time on the shrouding so that you don't need the foam.

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 9 2004, 10:31 AM

Thats what I told dad.. but he insisted foam... We'll see.

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 23 2004, 12:47 PM

Ahh, methinks its time for an update!

Amazingly I've been doing minor stuff this whole time... but ya...

Ok, The main things..

Im putting the engine in the car for a mockup.. checking bla bla bla.

I could have been ready for it to run, but I dont have the correct TO bearing (I'll get one from KEP, should get here sometime this week)

But I've gotten alot of "goodies" since last!


I went over to steves house on saturday, checked out his bunch of cool cars, and picked up more than I bargined for!
list
9in clutch and pressure plate
clutch throw extender (on pedal assymbly)
exhaust manifolds to work with his exhaust
radiator (spare)
High tq starter
shift linkage
Buttload of perfect (most NOS) seals (BONUS!!!!!)

And if you can believe it, he gave them to me.. Thanks Steve Hurt! (shotguneagle)

The most recent thing was yesterday, I went to the Turlock swap meet... Buncha hot rod stuff... Sooo... after recieving 150 bucks for selling carbs (hope the work out for ya Shane!) I had 150 bucks in my pocket to burn, and dad had a good deal of cash ready to spend as well. Well we spent 160 bucks (roughly) on parts. Heres the list!

Hugger headers $40
Performer RPM intake manifold $60
Holley 600 cfm carb $20
carb spacer/adapter $1
oil cooler $2
14in chrome (uggh) air cleaner $5
2.5in tach$5
wingnut $1
wire separators $1
header bolts $1
dizzy wires $5
spare dizzy (for shaft for priming oil pump) $2
gaskets $1
sandpaper (of all things lol) $5
and a timing marker thingy.. $1

I made a "guestimate" of how much everything would cost me new.... hehe
it was "around" 600...

I feel good.

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 24 2004, 08:45 PM

Andrew,
Good scores! just plunked down a ~$200 on just valve cover and w/p gaskets, header bolts, manifold bolts, carb studs, "Right Stuff" silcone for the manifold, Bosch platinum 2 spark plugs, and anti-seize for the plugs. I ordered the HEI dist. and am shopping for a beefier clutch. I'm looking for motor mounts, maybe the urethane type but they are ~$50 ea.

I got the allen (female) head header bolts because the standard type are hard to tighten with a wrench. They've loosened on mine frequently.

I found a set of used Hooker ceramic coated Competition headers for $100 on eBay! These are for early Vettes so they usually sell for alot more.

Felix

Posted by: dan10101 Aug 30 2004, 09:27 PM

Radiator...

DONE

(minous wiring the fan...)


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Posted by: skline Aug 30 2004, 11:26 PM

Why does it look like its going to leak??? Are you going to put clamps on the red hoses?? Also, where is the air going to escape from?? Just wondering.

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 30 2004, 11:55 PM

Oh the hoses arnt connected all the way.... air escape??

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 31 2004, 12:08 AM

Scott,
You must have missed the vented hood pic...
When are you going to have your car running
Felix

Posted by: Mueller Aug 31 2004, 12:40 AM

hey Andrew, that ugly front bumper sure looks familiar ....did you get that from Jim???

so are you running the hot air from the radiator out the hood like that black V8 914 that was at the WCC???

Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 31 2004, 12:46 AM

That single fan isnt going to do it.. you live in Slowdesto for christ's sake..lol

Oh.. water doesnt like to turn angles.. figure something else out.. ditch the elbows..They probably wont handle the heat anyway and melt.



B

Posted by: dan10101 Aug 31 2004, 12:47 AM

That's his plan, If it doesn't flow enough air, then he'll cut the inner fenders.

We tried to crank it over tonight, Starter froze. We'll try again tomorrow with another starter. May have the wrong number of teath for the after market gear reduction starter. I think it came from the late model engine conversion bits we aquired.

We still have the 911 starter that should work. Still lots of little things before it's road worthy...

Dan

Posted by: dan10101 Aug 31 2004, 12:49 AM

Oh, ya. It was Jims and more than a few others I'm sure.

Posted by: dan10101 Aug 31 2004, 12:50 AM

We have a second fan, just won't fit on the rad. We're thinking of pushing one and pulling the other. Offset on the front and back. Anyone try that?

Posted by: redshift Aug 31 2004, 05:21 AM

-uhh... duh! disregard some of this, I just realized what coffee, and you meant about offestting.. hee still, there are some clues, so I'll leave it..


If you do push-pull, you need to shroud the pull fan tightly, and the pull fan needs to have a lil more space between it, and the radiator. It needs to be completely ducted to be efficent enough to handle all that..

The turbulence created by the pushing fan can stall the air over the pulling fan, with a radiator dead between them, and without very tight duct work.

Better off with one of those ready made dual fan pulling rigs.

Great job Andrew, great to see you going on down the road towards your goal, keep up the giid work, as usual.


M

Posted by: skline Aug 31 2004, 09:42 AM

I didnt miss anything, I know he wants to vent the hood with an inverted scoop. I dont think it is going to be enough and I think it is going to flow the hot air right into the car with the top off. I guess we will see when he gets it going. Mine is still sitting here waiting for me to get time to work on it. Seems to be to many other things taking my time right now. Andrew will get his going before mine. I worked on it a little last weekend and ran into a small problem. I went to hook up the CV joints and found the engine and tranny are in there crooked. I need to shift the whole assembly over to the passenger side about an inch. Couldnt get the drivers side on. It sucks working alone.

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 31 2004, 10:04 AM

I measured the air outlet for the hood... Its twice the size of the inlet.. (which was the ratio I was lookin for...) Plus there will be a "turbulent" from the cowel which should suck the air out quicker... Hot air over the car I dont care about... Its only summer...

Brad, its a 15in fan... the thing is MASSIVE.... It just looks small because of my huge radiator..... If I have cooling problems I'll put the other fan on it and see how that is...

Oh ya, Tell Dad about those elbows... I dont like them... but he says they'll work, What do I know anyways.... So We'll see....

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 31 2004, 10:52 AM

What happened to your tool wench?

Andyrew,
How about a roll up on your budget?
Felix

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Aug 31 2004, 10:58 AM

Take those PVC pipe fittings and put them in a pot of boiling water on the stove. I bet they melt or are so flexible you can crush them.

BTDT.........

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 31 2004, 04:50 PM

Ok, total cost of the v8 conversion was 2300.

Minus my 2.0 engine sale (800) its 1500
Minus the sale of my carbs that went with the engine (150) 1350

Minus some other stuff I sold along the way, and its about 1k....

I'll throw those fittings in the boiling water and let dad watch... lol..

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 31 2004, 04:52 PM

Kit 1 300
Kit 2 500
Distributor 85
Radiator 50
Fuel Pump Faucet existing
Hoses and fittings 200
Headers Kit 2
Muffler Kit 2
Engine Rebuild 720
Machine work incl
Engine kit incl
Bearings (*2) 10
Paint, sand paper and Misc 60
Oil cooler 2
Remote oil filter kit 1
Overflow tank 0
Radiator Cap 2
Hood Kit 2
Fans Kit 2
Oil and filter 15
Materials for Radiator 109.95
Throwout bearing 70
Pilot bushing 40
Swap meet items
Plug wires 5
Gauges 5
Misc 10
Exhaust kit 2


Dera ya go.... a break down..

Posted by: dan10101 Sep 2 2004, 12:50 AM

BIGKAT and Brad
Thanks for warding off a big problem. We're throwing out the plastic fittings and getting copper plumming like one of the previous kit owners was using. I would prefer stainless, but Lowes doesn't carry it

So now it's time to learn how to solder copper plumbing. (Good to 450 degrees)

In the meantime. We took a moment last night to try and fire up the beast. Long enough to find out the dist was 180 out, wasn't getting any juce, the battery was dead, exhaust had a huge leak and hi-torque starters are NOISEY. (May be because we need to rework the tranny mount bolts, too solid).

Finally, FIRE in the HOLE. (litterally when the exhaust was leaking)
Still have to rework the timing and find why the carb seems to be sucking air.
No more running until the water lines are sorted out. Soldering is a pain, anyone else have an idea how to reduce 1 1/2" hose to 1" hose?

Inch by inch... slowly It turned...


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Posted by: Mueller Sep 2 2004, 01:07 AM

for the reducer, try Summit Racing

I found these for Datsun Z Chevy swaps
http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/Parts_DATZ_Hose-Splice-Kit.html

If you do end up using the copper tubing, try to add a bead on the OD so that the hose is less likely to slip off...

Posted by: lapuwali Sep 2 2004, 08:22 AM

Sounds like you guys need to enter the $2005 Challenge. Even if you don't, I'd bet GRM would like to hear from you. They love this kind of thing.

Posted by: soloracer Sep 2 2004, 12:26 PM

Andyrew: I bought a radiator from Renegade Hybrids and they forgot to send me a mounting kit and ducting. So I called and asked where it was. Scott told me he was shipping the ducting separately (which he did) and that they no longer hard mount their radiators. He said they had problems with the radiators getting cracked from the mounts (possibly due to flexing of the chassis?) and that they now float mounted their radiators. I'm not sure what that means but I thought I should share in case it is a concern for you.

Anyone know what they mean by "float mounting" the radiator? How would that be accomplished?

Posted by: Mueller Sep 2 2004, 12:32 PM

rubber isolators???

I'd mount the radiator so that you could grab it and move it about 1/4" in all directions, make sure you use a soft material that'll absorb the shock of hitting bumps and such

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 01:02 AM

hmmmm....that might explain why you cannot post a pic

just kidding...the admins have a "rule"...one must post 10 times before posting pictures



by the way, welcome to the club !!!!!

Posted by: neo914-6 Sep 29 2004, 01:27 AM

My benz rad sits on rubber rings (the bottom of the rad had big pins and the side and top is literally spring clipped. Maybe this is considered float mounting. Hmmm, I got my Renegade rad last year. I better check it out...

Welcome 9one4racer,
Felix

Posted by: mike_the_man Sep 29 2004, 09:16 AM

I know Mike did a lot of custom work. I don't think you can just go and buy a set of $25 bearings and slap them in. I'm sure Mike will explain, although he doesn't really have to. I think most of us understand what went into creating the roller bearings.

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 09:36 AM

Out of curiosity 9one4racer...

Did you even read this thread, Neh, did you even look at all the pics?

Its obvious that I shrowded the radiator..

oh... and dont be trying to slam down someone who's done as much work for 914's as Mike Mueller has done...

And as for the copper piping... I went with 1in id rubber lines. Copper tubing is only used for reducers and such.

I think Mr. Mueller needs an apology.

and if you think.. for one moment that im going to allow any more of this slamming on my thread...

No more talk of this. 9one4 either appologise to Mike Mueller, or dont respond at all. I will have the admins delete all these posts if something goes awry.

ps, you need 10 posts to be able to attach a picture.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 09:39 AM

geesh...someone cannot take a joke

no need to "defend" me Sammy or Mike, there will always be designers and engineers that'll make the same comments about "everything" and how they shouldn't cost that much....

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 09:47 AM

amdrew, no big deal.....we'll get over this and laugh about it later on.....no need to get personal, I guess some people don't have a sense of humor.....he was trying to help, I just thought it amusing that he had to throw in his "title", like that was going to make his advise golden

he does make a good point however, on the failure potential of the solder-joints

time to move on to the next subject

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 09:52 AM

Ya, When I first did some of the solders they had leaks. then I went through it again and got em good.

I still need to do a little work with my cooling system...

I have 2 overflow tanks, and no reserve... figure that one out.. lol (gotta put in a reserve tank... when it boils over (not a high enough pressure cap... I think... It boils over once the car is shut off. the engine temp is only at 220.. but the pressure increase yeilds it to spill over into my main overflow tank.. thus I loose water in my system and get air... thus I have to put more water into the system..)

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 10:00 AM

andyrew,

i have a radiator/water system test kit that you can borrow, you pressurize the system with it by pumping it up....with car off......

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 10:12 AM

Sounds interesting!

Currently overheating is not one of my major worries... I know I can always address that..But I am worrying about the engine not having alot of power.. and its wierd noises..

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 10:22 AM

i'd drain some oil out of it and carefully examine it looking for possible signs of accelerated wear or damage.

Posted by: andys Sep 29 2004, 11:48 AM

If you are going to use copper piping, I'd suggest you use a 90 *sweep* rather than a simple 90. It has a much larger radius bend rather than the tight *L* found in common copper 90's. You may have to go to a plumbing supply house (though I've seen 1/2" at HD), but they are available and will really help to reduce pressure drop.

Shock mounting the radiator is a really good way to avoid cracking/leakage issues. For race vehicles, I have always fabricated a U shape with U channel lined with foam weather strip. Slide the radiator in, and it is completely isolated from vibration under even the most severe conditions. I have an AFCO dual pass racing radiator; on their site, they recommend this type of isolation mounting as well. I have done this on mine; as I progress, I will post some pic's in a couple of days of my setup.

I suggest you avoid using puller and pusher fans. I have no direct experience with witnessing problems with this combination, but (as was previously posted) I've read that any small difference in the balance of flow between the two can create a tremendous stall in the air flow.

Shrouding the fans really improves their effectiveness usually because they cannot cover enough of the radiator core area. An unshrouded fan will only cover the area it projects over. You can test first, and shroud as necessary. If you do build a shroud, I'd also suggest some simple flappers that remain closed when the fans are runing while the car is at slow speed or stopped, and open when airflow increases as vehilcle speed increases so as to realize a greater area of air flow. BeCool makes a nice fan and shroud assebly with flappers available from Summit, p/n BCI-75007. BTW, I bought two 12" fans from Zirgo; they have very high CFM ratings, their prices are very good, and you can buy directly from them (Oregon). http://www.zirgo.com/search.lasso?search=fan


I also stumbled arcoss this site http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/02/electricfan/index.shtml
I'm not sure I believe their estimated 2000CFM from a 12" fan (off a Ford Taurus), but it is an interesting alternative (two fans?).....Although, after checking into on-line junk yard pricing, seems $75 to $150 was the going price. Perhaps you'd fare better at a Pick-and-Pull.

Cheers,
Andy

Posted by: neo914-6 Sep 29 2004, 11:51 AM

Didn't you guys see this? If anything maybe 9one4racer needs to learn how to post smilies.
Felix

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 29 2004, 12:22 PM

still comes off as an ass.

Andrew, nice work with all this!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Sep 29 2004, 03:02 PM

And if he really knew what was in Mikes kits... he would'nt be making "tongue in cheek" comments. The centerless ground "race" for the bearings to ride on is MUCHO expensive.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Sep 29 2004, 03:21 PM

Um.. Brass ?? No. WE make maybe 100$ on the front kit. The rear has less margin. WE are wide open too suggestions on how to make more money on the parts. Feel free to source everything for us. Months where spent finding/locating decent prices and parts for the kits. The rear requires quite a bit of machine work. Factor in all the time spent "hand holding" and we basically make NOTHING on them.

I thought the whole idea was to make money ? Can you let us make a buck ? I'm sure I can figure out a way to build Chrysler products cheaper.


B

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 04:14 PM

apology accepted and likewise.....

hope you are sitting down...that price does not include installation

these bearings are not designed to replace the factory rubbing bushings, these are a better alternative to the hard plastic bushings that most people "upgrade" to

no brass at all, the sleeve which goes onto the a-arm is 52100 solid rod, it is bored out, hardened and centerless ground per recommendations from Timken/Torrington..sure I could have used a chromoly sleeve or something else to hold costs down, but I choose not to..I'm not forcing anyone to buy these, too expensive or not to your liking, then pass on by and buy/make something else, no big deal to me

still on the front kit:
the other sleeve which goes into the factory housing is machined from seamless tubing

brass bushings can be had for less than mine ($100 less), but I feel (and do others) that they fill a different segment (do a search for Elephant Racing) I don't talk negative about Chucks parts and I hope he does the same........

no need to remove your posts, it's not the end of the world, you failed to see the humor in my joke, I thought it was kinda funny that someone that could design an engine would have trouble posting a picture, I guess it was more of an inside joke....sorry if my humor is "different"

how about starting over with your "introduction" with a brand new post/thread and introduce yourself....the GN motor has been discussed a few times in the last few years but as far as I know, you are the first one to have done one....besides, I'd love to pick your brain on engine design being that once my shop is finished, I'm going to start building a 1/4 scale http://members.aol.com/ronc9876/bookpage/Building_The_x.html


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Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 04:27 PM

9one4racer

Your a ok in my book!
I've seen muellers bearings and everything else he's made... and its alot of work.. He's a great guy,and he's helped me a lot, so I (like many others here) took offense when you cheap shoted his work. You've said what youve needed to say, and now I dont want this to go any farther. Take it privately if at all.


mike, I'll drain a little oil.. good advice.. Heck I'll just change it... ( leave the filter though..) cus Its a rebuilt engine...

all the fan talk..

I have a 16 in fan in there currently... Im sure its somewhere above 2500cfm.. If for some reason I have problems with it overheating, I will take the hood off to see if thats restricting it (doubt it..) then add the second fan in.. then if that doesnt do it, then I'll finish forming my ram air front bumper... ie fiberglass it in so there is no wishy washy air going in between the bumper and the body, so it goes through the front trunk.. If that doesnt work, I'll add some expanding foam to get rid of ALL the tiny air gaps.. AND IF THAT doesnt work, I'll change to marine exhaust hoses, and redo my whole cooling lines.

BUUUUT my problem with overheating IS NOT when its running, but when it gets shut off. When it gets shut off, the temp slowly goes up, maybe to 230 (highest i've seen it) when the car is running, it will max at about 200 so i've seen. while the radiator stays at 190 and casually drops... (I have a temp on the radiator..)



So any leads on that would be helpfull.

Dankie guys..

Posted by: lapuwali Sep 29 2004, 04:39 PM

This is actually pretty common with all water-cooled cars. The water is no longer circulating, but the heads are still at operating temperature. The heads run considerably hotter than the coolant flowing past it, so when the water stops flowing past it, the heads will heat up the water sitting there. There's no more heat being put into the heads (indeed, the water is drawing out what heat there is), so this actually isn't a problem.

If you ran a cylinder head temp probe under a spark plug, I'd bet you'd see it running at around 250dF while driving, even if the coolant temp is steady at 200dF. Perfectly normal.

Quite awhile ago some engines relied on a convection roll being formed in the cooling system to circulate the water, either in addition to a weak pump, or in place of a pump. Thermo-siphon is the commonly seen term. Such engines often did not show much of a temperature rise after shutoff, since they weren't depending on an engine-driven water pump to circulate the water. Most engines today completely depend on the water pump being there and operating at full flow to keep the coolant moving.

Posted by: soloracer Sep 29 2004, 04:50 PM

Guys, I'm sure 9one4racer is good guy. He is Canadian after all. He's just from the eastern part of the country and they're not known to have much of a sense of humour.

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 05:02 PM

James, thats kind of what I thought....

Currently I have to add in a resevor to my system.. because I have no "slack" of extra water.. My fill is directly in line with (the highest point on) the water lines. It is one in to the right, and its just like tacked on.
Works great, till you shut off the system and the pressure builds up and the water escapes and goes into the catch tanks, then it boils if its over 220. (which it will creap up to... after the engine is shut off.. and james, you confirm my thoughts that that is ok.)

Now.. to figure that one out.. gahh... Gona need some more fabricating... GAHHHHH!

never ending process...

Now if I can only figure out why the engine has no power...

Posted by: Mueller Sep 29 2004, 05:29 PM

like I posted earlier, there are other alternatives, I've lost a few sales to Chuck with his bronze bushings...some people have said cost was the driving factor, others just liked his design better and some people stick with the plastic since it's an even cheaper solution...I don't get mad or pissed off when they tell me they are buying or using something else....

I do wish I could make them less expensive, but I do this on the side, I can only afford to purchase so much stock and parts at a time. Believe it or not, there is another company selling kits pretty much just like the ones I am selling, and they cost $100 more than mine do....so if anything, I am doing a service by offering a less expensive alternative

feel free to make a better/cheaper/more thought-out alternative...who knows, maybe I'd be willing to buy a set if I feel they are better than what I currently have...to me it's all about evolution and who knows what the next hot ticket will be (air bearings )

andyrew,

it's been a while since I've played with water-cooled cars, have you driven and shut off your dads car to see what the cooling system does??? oh yea, a buddy of a buddy e-mailed me yesterday, he has a ratty 944 turbo he is looking to get about 3500 or so for, I hope to have pictures and details this weekend....supposedly runs strong, but needs cosmetics.

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 06:30 PM

Heck dont worry about "negative posts"

Once you get a little more posts under your belt, and show that you actually know what your talking about then we will have no problem accepting your "negative" posts.

Just ask questions before you jump to conclusions (or say your conclusions aloud..) It saves you from getting into messes... Whenever I talk to someone with differing views, I always want to know their side of the story before I shut them down.. Sometimes they have valid info!

Mike, thats a great price.. if all the bla bla bla.. you know... You thinking of getting it? I know you know their potential...
I drive the turbo's and my moms car alot.. The only thing they do is maybe have the fan run for a little.. and the turbo recirculates the water to cool the turbo... but thats it... No boil over bla bla bla... BUT my friends 92 camero is a whole diff story....

Posted by: propricer Sep 29 2004, 06:31 PM

Andrew ... is your fan set up to run even after the engine stops ???

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 29 2004, 06:34 PM

We're manually turning the fan on/off for now. So we're running it for a short time after the engine is shut off.

Posted by: dan10101 Sep 29 2004, 11:50 PM

9one4racer

Welcome. Don't worry about the 'stuff', your not the first. It happens here and everywhere. We welcome your opinions.


I'm curious about your setup. Do I see 2 radiators? Did you try one before and it didn't work? Which engine are you running?

I'm the Dad in the project. The one that's suppose to be experienced.

Posted by: dan10101 Sep 30 2004, 12:05 AM

Aside from cooling, we're running into the power drag problem...

Here's what we know so far..

The problem: Under moderate to heavy throttle in 2-4 gear the car feels like there is a trailer loaded with a ton of bricks holding the car back.

Under light throttle, the car responds well.

The engine stops very quickly once the idle is turned down or timing is changed. In other words it's tight. Granted it's all new components.

Tried both carbs. Problem is similar with both. A/F is close enough to not cause this problem. 12-13 under full throttle.

Tried some different timing settings, no change.

Possible problems. (brainstorming here so nothing gets ruled out)

1) Binding in the drive axles.
2) Missmatch in the connection from SBC to Transaxle
3) Internal engine problems.
4) Secondaries not opening. (ruled out with changing carbs)
5) Plugged Cat and/or muffler
6) flapper valve on the one exhaust manifold closing somehow forcing all exhaust thru the intake and out the other exhaust.
7) Transaxle failure(dragging) under high torque
8) brakes draggin. (rolls fine so not likely)
9) squating under throttle causing something to drag (like the axle)
10) Distributor to far advanced or retarded
11) Completly mismatched engine components killing all HP.


There must be a couple more I'm missing
Be blunt. We'd just like to solve this so he can start driving the car.

We get to play with it again on Friday. So we'll have some time to think about next steps.


Dan

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 30 2004, 12:14 AM

all this hot canadian air for nothing ...

you don't need 10 posts to attach a picture. you can do so in your first post.
there never was a limit on when you can attach pictures ...

as for your engineering *advice*, yes, you're welcome to throw ideas at us, we all do all the time.
but unless you have something better to show in your hands, don't piss on someone elses product that has proven to work very well.

i just ordered a set of muellers roller Bear-Rings and i have no problem forking out the $400 for a set.
why? because i know what my alternative would be and i have driven a few cars with them installed and i can tell the difference ...
have you?

some people,
Andy

Posted by: tesserra Sep 30 2004, 12:26 AM

Not accelerating under full throttle and high load is ususally fuel pressure. Check for clogged fuel filter.
Is your vacum advance hooked up to the right port on the carb? If it is hooked up to manifold vacum, not venturi vacum, you could have some goofy timing issues.

Just a couple of thoughts,
George

Posted by: dan10101 Sep 30 2004, 12:35 AM

Good Ideas.

I'll double check the vaccum connection and it's result on the timing.

Would low fuel pressure show up on an wideband A/F gauge?
We're getting decent mixture. Seems like it would lean out if it was starving for fuel.

Posted by: dan10101 Sep 30 2004, 12:41 AM

Levi,
I remember what you said. I'm just not ruling anything out after our rod bearing fiasco. I just haven't owned an engine this tight in well, forever..

It starts ok. Just pump the gas a couple times then when it bites, keep it running until it warms up.

The timing is definantly off. I can't get a read on the normal timing mark (can't see it against the firewall), and I'll need some instruction on how to do it properly with the Renegade damper pulley. My careful calculations and markings got us in the ballpark, but not close enough to rule out that as the problem.

We have both a holley and a Qjet. Both seem to act about the same.

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 30 2004, 12:42 AM

Ok, let me point out that we have not given it 100% throttle yet... maybe 75%... but that SHOULD activate the secondary's...

Its got good low end low throttle tq. and it sounds good at that... now give it more throttle.. and it makes a very loud working noise...I really want to break in the rings.... but I dont want to do further damage if im causing damage....

Posted by: neo914-6 Sep 30 2004, 01:07 AM

Try this: connect a vacuum gauge, idle at 900 rpm, and turn the distributor slowly until the vacuum peaks then back it off 1-2 pounds.

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 30 2004, 09:38 AM

Will do!

dankie

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 30 2004, 09:40 AM

might be hard to get it to idle at 900.... Maybe with the Q jet..

lol (the cam makes this hard....)

Posted by: Andyrew Sep 30 2004, 11:38 PM

oook.. So dad messes with the dizzy while I kept the throttle running, then we set the idle.. We'll see how that does on the vacume guage.

Went for a drive and well... sucked.
Ya, its got good power... but about 100 hp of it... (or so it feels)

Well while dad was giving it full throttle, we must have hit a bump or something.. A couple loud noises came... Not continual.. just a couple. Im guessing dad put the clutch in... So we drove it back home (all of about 100 yards) and looked at it.. We looked around, checked underneith.. I tried to point out the low clearance between the alternator belt and the shift linkage (bout 1/4 to 1/8 in...) when dad noticed something...

The trani mounts...

Posted by: dan10101 Sep 30 2004, 11:47 PM

But I didnt even show you the mount!!

I'd love to talk! Cant say it here? Need more room? More idea's? Go ahead and shoot me a pm (either account..)

Heres the mount... I THINK I have it in backwards (I debated on that for a LONG time installing it... guess I just did it wrong.... Eh I'll figure that one out.

Andrew


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Posted by: dan10101 Sep 30 2004, 11:47 PM

hehe, ya, I cut the tip of the exhaust off... It was hitting... and it was quiet... now my quarter pannel gets warm.. lol


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Posted by: skline Oct 1 2004, 12:23 AM

Dude, that aint right. It should fit perfect, that looks like its going to fall out. You need to fix that right away. Trust me, you dont want to take any chances with that one. Did you see this???


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Posted by: Andyrew Oct 1 2004, 12:29 AM

Oh, I know its not right... notice that I posted pics on it and such? lol

Ya, Im going to fix it before I drive it again.. the trani is being supported by a small jack right now just in case.

Andrew

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 1 2004, 12:30 AM

Would it be the reason for my engine problems possibly??

Posted by: PatW Oct 1 2004, 12:31 AM

You may want to take a close look at your carb gasket. It might be interfearing with the butterflys.

Also look into using a thick gasket if you not already using one. They tend to insulate the heat from cooking your carb.

Sounds like timing too.

Pat

Posted by: skline Oct 1 2004, 12:35 AM

Go to bed, I will take pictures of mine tomorrow and post them. Also, it is a very possible that it could hold you back, the trans could be binding and causing it to twist and bind which would hold it back, you are lucky you have not broken anything.

Posted by: John2kx Oct 1 2004, 07:58 AM

Attached are a couple of pics of how the trans. mount is supposed to look. This is a combination of the 911 sport mount, a notched washer from the stock 914 mount and Rengade's spacer.

Getting the timing right can be challanging with the v8 installed. You may have the distributor installed off a tooth or two but you should still have more power than described. With my timing set correctly, I could still rotate the distributor 3/8" in either direction without loosing the amount of power you describe (3/8" measured by marking base of dist. and having a fixed mark where it slides into intake).

I'd somehow verify the secondaries are opening with a device that indicates movement while your on the road. I don't have this device exactly figured out but had visions of a pen attached to secondary that would mark a fixed piece of paper?????? Maybe Dad could be talked into looking at the secondaries with the targa removed while your driving : )

Good luck,

John


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Posted by: John2kx Oct 1 2004, 07:58 AM

adfd


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Posted by: John2kx Oct 1 2004, 08:05 AM

Not the best pic of how to connect hoses to a Holley but all I have.

The three hoses connected to carb are as follows:

Large, medium and small........viewed left to right

Large goes to PCV on valve cover.

Medium is self explanatory (carb to carb connection)

Small hose is connected to vacumm advance on dist.

John

Posted by: John2kx Oct 1 2004, 08:05 AM

sorry.......did not attach


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Posted by: dan10101 Oct 1 2004, 09:34 AM

Dad does not want to have his head over the carb while the car is running... lol

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 1 2004, 09:44 AM

Thanks all.. Thanks John for the pics, I'll see what I can do about the mounts. In what order did you install the mounts? Trani to adapter to body?

I'll try the holley as well with those hose attachments, I dont think we had them all like that.

Andrew

Posted by: John2kx Oct 1 2004, 12:11 PM

Don't think this is critical but I installed the sport mounts firmly, then installed the remaining pieces loose. With the engine beam mounting bolts loose, I positioned engine fore/aft, left right until the large bolts that go through tranny ear were lined up, ie, no binding fore/aft or side to side. Then tighten everything up. Don't be surprised if you have to make a clutch cable or shift linkage adjustment if the engine is moved fore or aft. Never had the tranny move in two years of operation using this method.

Do pay attention to where washers are installed or ommited as compared to your setup, and the size and thickness used. (there has to be a good footprint between rubber and metal for this setup to work right). Installed correctly, you will keep everything in place when you squeeze the power on.

John

Posted by: soloracer Oct 1 2004, 12:43 PM

I was considering using solid tranny mounts. Do you foresee any problems going this way? (Ie: cracking of chassis, etc.) Since my car will be mainly used for track events I'm not really worried about any vibration that might be transferred to the driver.

Posted by: John2kx Oct 1 2004, 02:44 PM

Sorry, I'm no expert on what to use for a track car. Maybe Brad will jump in here and provide some useful information.

John

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 1 2004, 10:01 PM

Brad hasnt said anything yet... period..

I figure he's ignoring this thread


Anyways.. I fixed the mounts, and I think I got it in right... I think what happened was that we hit a bump and the trani shifted... Since I didnt have them in correctly it just moved...

Sooooo I drove it, gave it a little throttle, and WAM it seems very responsive to me! I maybe gave it 1/4 throttle... I was only going around the block so there wasnt much I could do...

Sooooo With a big thumbs up I decide to let dad drive it.. Well he waited to give it ANY gas ... So when he finally gets on it, he floors it.. Ehh.. still slow.. but wait, he's franticly reaching over and I hear a little rrRRRR as the clutch goes in and he shuts it off... "Great, Another throttle cable broke.... grrrrr" thinks I... Well the throttle cable didnt break, and but there was a washer that was holding the secondary's on the Q jet open... take it out and dad says he thinks thats it...

We checked the trani bolts (I marked em with a black marker) and there fine.

We went out again, nope, still no power... At this point, I've just about thrown a fit... I get my hopes up and WAM get shot down AGAIN!!! So dad drives it around more, longest trip... Driving around its about 185-170.. get home.. shut it off.. and in 2 mins the engine is at 230.... radiator is cool.. so keeping the fan on just doesnt make sense.. but hey, we leave the fan on anyways every time we shut the car off. So I just get even more angry... this happens EVERY TIME. 40 degree increase in temp when the car gets shut off? And I bet when If I start it it will jump RIGHT back down to 190 (like it did last night....) I need a little bigger reserve/overflow tank because when the engine shuts off, the water just expands, and the pressure builds and it just goes right out the overflow thing on the cap and fills up the tank.... I had maybe one cup of air left in that overflow tank.... I Think I need a bigger one... lol. And a higher pressure cap (what, 16-18lbs isnt enough? SHEESH)

So problems... (summary...)

No power still

battery ground cable broke on the tightening end.. need to get another one of those.. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (causes many problems...

overheat 40 degree increase when engine shuts off

Me getting frustrated.. angry... tired.. lack of hope

andrew

Posted by: Slowpoke Oct 1 2004, 11:54 PM

I haven't read every single post, but, have you checked to make sure the vacum advance and centrifical (spelling) advance in the distributer is working. Cause that's what this is sounding like to me. Try another distributer.

Posted by: skline Oct 2 2004, 12:12 AM

Ok, well let me pass on some information I got from Renegade the other day when I was talking to Mike over there. I told him about the black car that Joe bought and how the temp goes up when you drop the idle down after running and then it goes back down after a minute or so and when you shut it off the temp goes up, he simply and confidently stated that there was air in the system. He said bleed it again and again till it all comes out. I hope this helps you with the over heating issue.

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 2 2004, 12:20 AM

Theres air in the system because of my overflow tank thingy...

I'll get the air out somehow (somehow...)

Slowpoke.. Its a new (read completly new) dizzy. And I plugged the advance off.. last run.

This is a 250hp engine (350 tq).. It might make 200 hp with the advance off... but its currently about 100. That is NOT the problem.

Posted by: scruz914 Oct 2 2004, 12:29 AM

Andrew,
An increase in temp is normal when the fluid is not flowing. When you turn the engine off the fluid stops flowing and you will get a very high reading. If you start it right back up the temps will drop. You may want to wait a few minutes before shutting the engine down if you are worried about too high temps. My experience is from a water cooled engine in my VW bus. As soon as I shut the thing off, the temps shot up. If I immediately started the engine back up the temps would drop.

-Jeff

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 2 2004, 12:33 AM

Ya, but the water (yes, im running straight water) is poping the pressure cap and filling my overflow tank, then it boils (then spews out..). So dad says we might be running a 50% mix to try and raise the boiling point.

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 2 2004, 12:35 AM

Levi When would be a good time to call tomorrow? We'll be workin on the car till about 4pm (I got work then..)

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 2 2004, 12:49 AM

Will add some coolant, and water wetter tomorrow...

still doesnt help the engine problem though... lol

Any clues to sleep on?

Posted by: dan10101 Oct 2 2004, 12:52 AM

Sometimes we just can't see the forest because all the trees get in the way...

Coolant going in tomorrow.

So, if we decide to use Water Wetter instead, how much should be used for effective cooling?

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 2 2004, 01:10 AM

Well.... its slow.... past 1/4 throttle it just makes loud "working" noises and doesnt have much "go".....

You know... THAT engine problems...

I fixed the mounting, and the cable... cable? throttle cable oh, no thats fine.

Posted by: John2kx Oct 2 2004, 09:42 AM

After reading your entire post again (it's been a while), it sounds like more of a problem with the timing/distributor since you have had the same results using two different carbs. Here are a couple of things I would try.

Are you sure the distributor is installed correctly? I had a mark on harmonic balancer to know when at TDC. You'd have to pull #1 plug to verify your on compression stroke and then ensure dist. rotor is pointing at #1 on cap. A finger in the spark plug hole of #1 while someone is bumping over the engine is the easiest way of determining if your on compression stroke or not.

If this checks out good, you could make small changes to distributor position while out on the road. Just don't fully tighten distributor hold down bolt and make small changes until you see improvement. Mark dist. and intake before you start and make changes 1/8" at a time until you see improvement. Work both sides of your reference mark to make sure you try advance and retarded timing positions. I'd also double check to make sure the plug wires are installed on their right cylinders. A bad set of plug wires could also be the cause and it's not clear to me if these were new or not during your rebuild. A Camaro I once owned ran fine at idle and mid throttle but was a dog when the throttle was at 1/2 or more.......ended up being a worn set of wires.

Your cooling system issue where your temps. are OK while driving but overfilling expansion tank could be better diagnosed if you posted a pic of how this is installed. Might just be a bad radiator cap. 16 lb. is what Renegade recommends with their setup. Your not using theirs, so a change to 18 lb. or so might be worth a try. If your timing is way off, the over filling of expansion tank might just cure itself.

Did you break the cam in correctly? (2000-2500 rpm for 20 minutes the first time engine ran) A friend of mine wiped a few lobes of his cam last year during his break in and suffered from lack of power. I do not know how to check this with engine assembled. Maybe pull the valve covers and rotate engine while viewing rocker arm operation???

It was not clear in your post what fuel pump your using. Your symptoms do sound like this could also be the cause (starvation when demand is high). You should also check sump in fuel tank for build up of sludge and condition of sock/filter. Disconnecting fuel inlet at carb. and routing to some type of collection device while activating fuel pump could give you a indication if some type of restriction is present.

Good luck........I'm sure you'll get this one figured out soon.

John

Posted by: dan10101 Oct 2 2004, 10:07 AM

This was burried quick, so I'll bring it to the top.

The Qjet is on the car now and seems ok. Full throttle gave us a good 4bb Qjet sound like it should. A/F readings were good as mentioned. Which port should the Vaccum advance be connected to? The one I picked was off the back-bottom of the carb, but caused immediate pull on the Vac advance. Possible that the idle is too high?

Redoing the trans mount seems to help. But the trans hub is lower than the wheel hub. Upon acceleration it must be dipping more expecially with 2 people in the car. Not sure how much the axles can be out of square before they start having problems.

Posted by: John2kx Oct 2 2004, 10:30 AM

Dan,

This is how my axles looked with car fully assembled and tires planted on ground. You may be onto something but you mentioned being able to roll the car by hand. Maybe try rolling it with 1-2 people inside.

I could shift my axles side to side at least 1/8" or more while in the air or when planted on ground.

John


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Posted by: dan10101 Oct 2 2004, 11:09 AM

We have been running water wetter for protection.
But, now will run to the store for some AntiFreeze.
That was in the plans but we wanted to work out any leaks etc.
Thanks for the reminder some things just get forgotten in the midst of all the hoopla.

Posted by: dan10101 Oct 2 2004, 11:12 AM

Our trans sits much lower. Possibly too low.
We're going to have Andrew try without my fat butt in the car to see if it makes a difference.

(anyone have any 180 springs they want to part with? )
I know they aren't that much new, but why not ask.

Posted by: dan10101 Oct 2 2004, 11:18 AM

BTW.
Thanks a bunch John2kx, Sammy, Levi and everyone else I forgot to mention. It helps having people to bounce ideas off when your up against the wall.

Posted by: Slowpoke Oct 2 2004, 05:24 PM

If you are sure the distributer is working perfectly, cause I've seen new parts not work right or fail. Have you checked or set the advance in the distributer? If it's a mallory it's ajustable. Then, have you checked the cam timing? Sometimes those multi position (-4, 0, +4) degree gear and spockets can get confusing, especially with all the choices. Did the cam follow the specs from the cam card? I'm thinking timing issues from what you are describing.

You can find a ported vaccum for the distributer by looking for a fiting on the carb that has no or little vaccum at idle and vaccum starting when the throttle is opened.

Sorry, can't be of more help.

Peter

Posted by: dan10101 Oct 2 2004, 10:39 PM

The Cam went in straight up. No special degree gears.

The distributor Vacuum advance is definatly working. I'll check the mechanical advance. I'm going to see if I can find a better port to plug into. All the digrams I see for that car/carb show some additional port multiplier thingy that the distributor plugs into.

I just wonder if the port I've selected is correct, but since the idle is so high, the carb thinks we're already at part throttle.

Today we added Coolant to the mix, changed the oil and filter, cleaned up the wiring somewhat.

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 2 2004, 11:10 PM

You need to pickup ported vacum. There should be a port that only sucks under exceleration. The SBC is prone to heating up if the timing is off. Check to see you have the correct harmonic balancer. the later balancer have a built in advance for emissions. Check to see you have the correct dizzy for the motor. I think the same deal applies with emissions stuff.

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 2 2004, 11:21 PM

I didn't hunt through your entire post do you have pictures of your cooling system here? If so what page? I want to see all the connections and the radiator/fan system your using. I may have a few things I can contribute.

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 3 2004, 12:24 AM

Page 5.. and http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=17368&hl=v8
that thread..

Posted by: JB 914 Oct 3 2004, 02:02 AM

Hi Andrew,

Good thread and great job on your project.

I don't know what you ended up with on the hose connections, but, the V-8 i just bought had copper elbows and it leaked. I replaced all the hoses from front to back with marine exaust hose.

Good luck

Posted by: NoPorsche Oct 4 2004, 03:03 PM

Andyrew,

Levi is incorrect... True, water boils at 212 degrees, BUT that is at atmospheric conditions, not in a pressurized system.

The boiling point of water actually increases approximately 3-degrees for every pound of pressure.

Therefore, with a 16-lb pressure cap, the water will stay liquid until about 260 degrees (far greater than 212)... Your water should not see 260 degrees unless you really have problems.


100% water will provide BETTER cooling efficiency than a 50/50 mix, as the WATER conducts the heat better than coolant. Coolant has a higher boiling point, but water is more efficient. Unless you will exceed that boiling point (~260 degrees) the coolant ineffective.


As Sammy mentioned (page 10), you don't want to run Straight water because of corrosion reasons.

For the BEST cooling, straight water with Water wetter and/or some other additive to prevent corrosion and possibly reduce the surface tension of the water .

For a fresh motor, there is absolutely no problem running straight water for a short time period (a few weeks), as the corrosion/electrolosis effects will probably take weeks before anything happens (at least to be noticible) and months before there are problems...

I like to do this until I am sure the cooling system doesn't have leaks, without having coolant mix leaking all over everything (what a mess that is). I sometimes also pull the motor for detailing etc after an initial breakin. Straight water makes it cleaner and simpler.

Coolant/antifreeze is great for keeping the system from freezing in the winter, as well as providing those anti-corrosion agents... but it is not the best choice for cooling.

Anti-freeze/coolant is also not the best choice if you plan on any type of racing (on a track or AX coarse), because coolant is much more slippery than straight water (or even WW/water mix), and if you overheat and spill on the track, you will ruin the surface for everybody that follows...


I have actually noted average temp drops of 5-10 degrees with only the change of mixtures from 50/50 to straight water, and a few more degrees with Water Wetter added...

I personally have run straight water/Water Wetter for many years in my cars (those stored inside in the Winter) with absolutely no cooling or corrosion problems... Prior to that I also ran straight water during the summer with no noticible issues...

You also want to be sure to run a thermostat. Alot of people take these out, but they are actually better for proper cooling system efifciency.

Posted by: NoPorsche Oct 4 2004, 03:22 PM

Another thing I thought of...

175-180 is not overheating. As others here have stated, its completely normal for the water temp to rise after you shut it off... The combustion temps are above 1500 degrees, and the internal metal is also much hotter than the water. The water is around 180 because you have a constant flow of cooled water from the radiator. Once the water pump stops, the coolant can no longer flow throught theradiator to be cooled. BUT the engine is still very hot and continues to radiate that heat into the water, and the water gets hotter. Since the guage is at the engine, you notice that increase... Perfectly normal.

Is the car overheating? Or just pushing water out into the overflow?

Is it only pushing water out when its shut off, or while driving/running?

Have your tried letting it cool, emptying the overflow and driving it again, WITHOUT refilling the water??? And then driving again to see if it still continues to fill the bottle? Many people think that water filling the overflow means overheating, but thats not true, its just the extra pressure bleeding off... And it doesn't mean extra air still in the system (the cycling that renegade mention is different). When the water does begin to boil and turn to steam, it expands and therefore will need extra room (popping the cap). Also remember that while the guage reads "180", there is still variation in the temps. The "180" reading is only at the guage (it should be similar throughout the engine, but will vary.). When you have an air pocket, that is different.

There needs to be room in the system for expansion, and therefore any excess water will bleed off the first few times the temps get up. If you keep "topping off" the system, it will continue to push water out until it has room for the normal expansion. This is a common problem, people keep adding water thinking the system needs it, when the system is actually over full. Not sure on the Posche V8, but generally cars have about 1-inch of space inside the radiator between the water and the radiator cap). Since a typical car will have that extra room "above " the engine, air pockets will not affect the engine.

Do you have the proper radiator cap? Most modern cars use a different cap/system that allows the water to escape when hot, but then its supposed to draw the water back into the system as the engine cools... This cap will not work properly on an older type system...


As for the lack of power. I doubt its the carbs. Not only because you have tried several, but also because even a 2-barrel carb will provide good power. A 2-barrel might lose power at the upper RPM range (like above 5000 RPM in you case), but at lower engine speeds (even up to 5000 RPM or so), the primarys will still make as much power... The secondarys are only NEEDED when the engine actually needs more fuel...

Even a factory 2-barrel setup will still make good power up to a point, and on a smaller engine like a 350, that should be pretty high.

Too much carb opening (like a washer in the secondaries) could lead to a lack of power and driveability at lower engine speeds.

It sounds like a timing issue to me, and usually those will also incur higher engine temps when running.


With an iunknown (stock?) balancer, you need to verify the timing marks. I usually insert some sort of piston stop (large bolt, etc) into the Number 1 spark plug hole, and turn the engine BY HAND until the Number 1 piston hits the stop. Then turn the engine by hand the opposite way until the piston again hits the stop, and make a mark.

True TDC should be right between these marks. Mark the balancer accordingly. Then set the timing.

Either use the cam card specs to set the timing, or somewhere around 10 degrees BTDC. Usually factory specs are retarded for emissions purposes, and therefore don't make the best power/driveability. You can adjust the timing from there, and once you get it where you want (where it runs good), THEN use a timing light to document for future tuneups.

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 4 2004, 04:56 PM

NoPorsche, thanks for all the info, its very helpful. As far as cooling, I think I've figured that one out.
(Side note, we flushed the system saturday and filled it back up with a mix of water and coolant, Sunday I decided to drive it to church... Well about a block away I heard clank clank clank clank, and pulled off... the line off the water pump blew off and it was dragging on the ground , although I noticed it had been leaking all the way from the house (1/2 mile away luckly) when I shut the system off, it just emptied. I think dad didnt tighten the hose up all the way when he drained it from the hose, but dont know.. I double clamped the hose, and tightened them down with a wrench. Filled it back up and it ran really nice on the way home. )
custom balancer to fit the engine in the 914.. (Renegade if you know who they are..)

Thanks, we will definately use this.
Andrew

Posted by: Howard Oct 4 2004, 05:07 PM

No Porsche, eh? Let's get that fixed ASAP!

Great info. Have experienced almost all these problems with Moby. Runs poorly. Can only set timing by ear, since wrench installed 305 balancer on new 350 engine so marks are useless. Changed carbs, not the problem. Previous engine was a built 305 so dizzy curve may be wrong for this engine.
Overheats when too advanced, lost most of the coolant, replaced with water, retarded, and overheating is gone. Well I guess. Have 2 temp gauges. Electric sensor is between exhaust ports, and runs 220 there with no apparent problems. Mechanical @ radiator runs 150-160. These are hot day temps.
It may be wrong balancer creating a vibration problem. Not awful, but noticible around 2800. Changing the timing changes the vibration point by as much as 500rpm (???) but it never completely goes away. I'm taking the wrench to small claims as there were so many problems. Have been told by several experienced mechanics that engine must come out and have correct balancer and flywheel (and dizzy?) installed or rebuilding 305 may be cheaper.
Opinions?

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 4 2004, 05:13 PM

Howard, Since I was in a rump I decided to check out another forum specific to v8's. I posted to http://www.hotrodders.com/f21
and Im getting alot of good responses.
heres my thread http://www.hotrodders.com/t49008.html

I know there more forums out there, but this one seems good.
Hope you get your claim and everything fixed!

Andrew

Posted by: Howard Oct 4 2004, 05:52 PM

Andrew, thanks. Lots of good stuff there. Don't know if you followed my old thread on this, but wrench's 22 yr old son commited suicide right after he got the 305 out and tore it down. He lost it (of course) and said he would just push my car out on the street. I bought a new 350 from Mr Goodwrench, had it delivered, and his assistant installed. Has been one problem after another, but can't do more until case is heard.

Ran like a bat out of hell with the 305, but it was using 1 qt per 100 miles. Turns out it was a fairly fresh (~500 mile) rebuild but had sat for 3 years. Rings never seated, cylinders glazed, some particles got in the oil and scored bearings. It should be a fairly easy rebuild, and will probably do it once case settles.

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 4 2004, 06:00 PM

Ya I remember reading your thread.

I get your point, you dont want to do any work to the car till the case is heard.

Posted by: NoPorsche Oct 5 2004, 01:53 PM

Yeah, No Porsche... I have never owned a Porsche, and I haven't sat in one in probably 30+ years (911 Targa? back when I was probably 5 or 6 years old)...

All my life (well, the past 22 years) I have had all Chevrolet "hot rods", both Small Block and Big Block...

My "proposed" next project (hopefully starting next year) is a "late model" Chevrolet Corvair (1965-1969) with a mid-engined V8 swap... I hope it to be very similar to the 914 V8s, performance-wise...

I will probably be using a Porsche transaxle (probably a 930 box) because they are stronger, they have better gear ratios and they will offer more leg room than the typical V8 Corvair transaxle/V8 swap... The typical V8 Corvair swap places the "transmission" between the engine and the differential, which causes the engine to be placed pretty far forward. Using the Porsche transaxle will add 8-12 inches of leg room up front...

Thats why I love to come here and get lots of good info and add my $0.02...


After hanging out here, I have contemplated a 914/ V8, but I personally am still leaning toward that "late-60's Chevy styling". Plus I like the idea of having something most don't think about... Tell the average person you have a Porsche, and they assume its fast... Tell someone you have a Corvair, and most just laugh (if they even know what it is anyway)...

I don't know, I haven't bought the project yet, so maybe I will go with the Porsche 914. There are alot more upgrades/support for the 914 than the Corvairs (like suspension and brake upgrades-there are a few), so most modifications are very "one-off". I am contemplating adapting 1984-1996 Corvette suspension and brakes.

I hope I am not black-listed now...

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Oct 5 2004, 02:52 PM

No Porsche I built a crown conversion in the late 70's and loved the thing.

I see a friend all the time that has a late covair conversion. He uses this for everything Road Race and is damn fast, Drag racing he runs mid 11 sec on street tires. and drives it back and fourth to work. You may even know him if you go to the covair boards.
I've got some more pictures I'll email off the board if you would like.

Bob


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Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Oct 5 2004, 03:06 PM

and one of the engine.


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Posted by: dan10101 Oct 6 2004, 12:14 AM

Had a friend that did the corvair back seat conversion some 20 years ago. I seem to remember that he sold it shortly after it was running. It scared him too much. Seems like he uses a Toronado engine and transaxle. Could just be my wild imagination.

Well tonight we (I) verifed the Timing marks. Thanks NoPorsche for the suggestion. Added another mark to the top of the transaxle site hole and the flywheel. I had it right, but didn't trust my rusty self.

We have a few more things to try. Throw the edelbrock intake and holley carb on for grins. open up the exhaust and see if it's plugged a few more goodies with the timing now that we know the mark is correct. (not necessarly in that order)

Dan

Posted by: Levi Oct 6 2004, 01:36 AM

Oh thank God, finally there is someone that knows every fucking thing there is to know about cars, I guess I can finally quit giving all my incorrect advice.

Posted by: NoPorsche Oct 6 2004, 10:01 AM

Wow, whats with that Levi guy? Or maybe she a woman around that time of the month

Even his signature "I hate knowitall geeks." Good thing I am not a geek. And I don't pretend to know it all, just a typical car-loving guy that wanted to be sure that people like Andrew and Dan didn't get confused by incorrect information... I am sure we all give out some incorrect info now and then, especially in areas where we might not be too familiar (like water-cooled engines and Chevy V8s)...

Or MAYBE Levi wanted to make sure Andrew/Dan couldn't figure it out?

Wow... It just amazes me that someone can't take criticism when incorrect... I did no personal bashing, I simple was stating that his information about the water boiling at 212 in a sealed engine was incorrect.


Anyway, Yeah, the Corvair... After hanging out here though, I begin to get more interested in the 914...

The Toronado swap is NOT very good for handling, etc, but easy to package and can retain the rear seat... The Crown or Porsche setup places the engine for better weight distribution...

Andrew, I like your project. Maybe I'll get to see it sometime in person (I'm about an hour away from Modesto)...

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 6 2004, 10:05 AM

We understood what Levi ment, and we understood what you ment, Levi came over a couple weeks ago and saw my car and chit chatted with my dad (I was in school). Levi's cool.

NoPorsche, feel free to pm me when ever you want to come by and see it! I'll give you a ride.

Posted by: aircooledboy Oct 6 2004, 10:35 AM

Daaamn Levi . . . .

What the hell was that all about?

Posted by: Lawrence Oct 6 2004, 12:31 PM

hey Levi...

You're welcome to come by anytime and give me all the incorrect advice you'd like. Heck, I'll buy the beer.

-Rusty

P.S. bring the girl in your avatars.

Posted by: dan10101 Oct 16 2004, 11:26 PM

Time for an update and a question...

The car is coming along nicely. We had our first (of many) cruse nite Thursday. It ran great. Still have issues with dragging exhaust pipe. It's LOW especially with my lard butt in there.

We came up with a new problem with the charging system. The new Optima battery drained after running around a couple days.

Can someone clear up the alternator wiring for me. We have a 3 wire system. 2 spade terminals and the large positive wire. I have a 10ohm resistor inline with the activator wire on terminal 1.

The other wires, #2 and the large wire go back to the battery directly.

I see some diagrams that show a diode. Is that a replacement to the resistor? Does it keep the charging system from pulling a charge out of the battery?

We were getting approximately 14 volts out of the running charging system. I'll check it again shortly.

Thanks,
Flunky Greasemonkey on the Andyrew V8 project.

PS.
Here's a pict from our first night on the town.


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Posted by: skline Oct 17 2004, 05:31 AM

Well, I know you guys are trying to do it on a budget, but Joe just replaced his alternator with a one wire and that is what I am running on mine. It doesnt get any simpler to hook up, and the alternators are about 39.00 or so. Just a suggestion.

Posted by: Andyrew Oct 17 2004, 11:08 AM

I very much want to go with one...

If we cant figure out how to get this one to work, and if my OTHER one doesnt work (suposedly for this conversion.... eh..) then I'll go with dat...

Thanks
Andrew

Posted by: soloracer Nov 15 2004, 01:47 PM

So what is the verdict here? Did you ever solve the "car gots no power under full throttle" problem?

Posted by: 914GT Nov 15 2004, 02:08 PM

Dan

I've been using the same alternator you have with no problems. One spade terminal back to near the battery, the other to the original dash alternator light.

Posted by: soloracer Nov 16 2004, 02:42 PM

Posted by: Mr.C Nov 16 2004, 04:42 PM

I was wondering the same thing.

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 16 2004, 05:11 PM

Well, verdict eh?

I g teched it a while ago at 160 RW hp.. So figure about 200hp... Kinda lowly for a 350... lol
Its got a bunch of tq at 2500 and everywhere.. Ie is so responsive its almost undrivable.. (lol)

But it just dies at 4000rmps or so... (match of timing, intake, and exhaust is my guess...)

I havent driven it in a week because somethings loose in the rear suspension, and I havent had any time to get to it.

I am now looking for corvette TPI to put on around christmas. (I'll buy it when money comes my way..lol)

Soooo..

Verdict. The full throttle thing... Well Its alright, when the secondary's kick in, ya, you can feel/hear it. but its not correct AFR...
Its fast, but only about 160hp fast.
very dissapointing. (im used to a 944 turbo race car... and knowing that my car should blow the socks off the turbo, it feels slow in comparison. I am NOT happy)
With everything I curretly have to bolt on, I want 250 rear hp. I just need some time to do it!!!



I'd guess 0-60 is about 6 seconds. Less if I launched it.

Andrew

Yup, its slow.

Posted by: dan10101 Nov 16 2004, 09:53 PM

The answer to the question is... we're not sure.

We found an ignition problem that was repaired by running a new 12v feed wire to the HEI. Also removed the unnecessary Cat that was partially plugged (73 model year). That and a bit of tuning made the bad problems go away. Now it's probably a mismatch of components that is hurting the power output. His estimate of power is pretty close, but realise that it's easly double what he had before. So, if that is all it ever becomes, it's enough for me even if it's not enough for him.

Driving wise. It's not easy to loose the tires, but power and thrust are there. Full throttle give a nice roar from the carb. Exhaust is a bit quite, so that will be one of the next items on his list. It's still not allowing us to turn the idle down below 1000 rpms. That bothers me. But it is a pretty ratical cam, so it could be part of the problem.

He did get the window fixed, did a nice job on it and fixed the door handle sticking while he was in there. So now it will seal up against the weather. (except for the front radiator storage...)

Still alot of work to do, but we're now in full garage update mode so things will get put on hold for a bit. We're adding a 1.75 car garage onto our existing 2 car... At least now I can get my cars out of the weather before they deteriorate.


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Posted by: cffd May 30 2005, 10:22 PM

Wow!!!!!!!!!......... very nice and well done!! it sounds great!!.. I would like to know how the drivers faces of the rice burners, etc looked like after you put a nice smack down to there suprise. Eric 73-stock 914

• WOW!
  

Posted by: shoguneagle Nov 11 2005, 12:47 AM

I have been gone a while and recently read the entire thread again. What is the latest on this project? Seems to have reached a "stall".

What is the "happ's", gang?

Thought I would say "Hi", and get an update on the project.

Steve Hurt
shoguneagle

Posted by: Dr. Roger Nov 11 2005, 12:59 AM

yea' andy, what's up with that injection sytem??? it was sounding pretty good there last month...

Posted by: dan10101 Nov 11 2005, 01:27 AM

I'll reply, since he's doing homework, er well, he should be, if he'll ever get off the phone with his girlfriend.

No big changes since the v8 meet. Plans seem to go whichever the wind is blowing. Current talk is a total overhaul. Pull the engine, repaint the engine compartment, finish the body work, possibly pull the engine apart to check a 'funny' noise.
Excessive work is kinda on hold due to some major work on my cars that may limit running cars.

The good news is that the garage is done. Now I can finish my engine swap on the track 951 and another job that reared it's ugly head. A chiped tooth on the flywheel on the stock 951. This has been his school car and my occasional work car. So, we have some major repairs ahead. The 4 car garage will come in real handy.

Here's a pict of the finished produce. We'll get some interior shots one of these days.




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Posted by: Andyrew Nov 11 2005, 02:48 AM

I thought I heard a rod nock the other day... or a bearing...

Anyways, I havent heard anything, I think I just had the idle to low..

I bumped up the idle and it seems to be running just fine.

Im playing with dizzy timing, I've done a little playing around and im very certain that with an electronic dizzy I can get the power delivery perfectly linear (with heads that will flow it..)

I have had no cooling problems, and I dont see over 190 anywhere in the streets. I have some air flow issues that I will be resolving soon when I approach the body work, which is giving me a higher than liked temp durring long travel on the freeway.

Programable fuel injection has given me much more opportunities, that I can not utilize myself. I will need to be putting this engine on a dyno to tune it properly.

Unfortunatly, I will be tearing down the engine before this to inspect and make sure nothing is wrong with the oil pump or rods or bearings or the like.

I will be installing an oil cooler that takes the place of the fresh air ducting by the windshield and running a fan with hoses to the dash vents. This will be my heater fix and should work nicely.

I need to start working on the body work, ie putting on HPH flares via dzuts fasteners, and working on the hood vent ala gt 40 style.

Car will be factory phoenix red, and the wheels I do believe will be black chrome.

I will be semi tube framing the car and I have an engman long kit as well.

Soon the car will be running Goodyear slicks and hopefully I will be able to get it to 2000lbs.

As far as time? I want the car painted by WCC 06. Taking a class right now.

Whew... Thats life in a bottle!!! for the car...


Be sure to check out my pics and my video's!!! The links are in my sig

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 11 2005, 02:53 AM

Heres some pics from the recent autox..

THe one from the video.. (with the girl screaming..)


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Posted by: Andyrew Nov 11 2005, 02:53 AM

last.. night all


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Posted by: soloracer Nov 11 2005, 12:37 PM

Dan,

What wheels are on your 951? They look similar to the ones on my car.

Andyrew,

That's quite a list you have. I just finished a turbo upgrade on the 951 that took me all winter (dyno'd 303 rwhp / 289 ft-lbs untuned @ 15 psi - pump gas). Guess I work too slow. With a list like yours I would be years away from getting done. Makes me wonder if I'll ever get finished with my teener. Keep posting updates on your thread - it gives me incentive to keep going with my car.

Posted by: jimkelly Nov 11 2005, 01:43 PM

How much rear sway is ideal - maybe a rear sway bar is in order??

Jim

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 12 2005, 03:47 AM

Sway is not the problem, but understeer.

I have a rear stock sway bar (suposedly they increase the spring rate ~40 lbs)
I just have plans on making custom mounts, and droplinks...

The wheels on his stock car are DP wheels from japan or something. They look nice, and are not to heavy. Recently referbushed...
The pic that i have is big... so heres a link to the pic.
http://members.rennlist.com/dan10101/images/SierraRun10-29-05/PA290028.JPG

Andrew

Posted by: RobPattillo Jul 3 2006, 09:38 AM

It is always a good thing to replace the lifters. They aren't that expensive and will releive alot of worry in the end.

Posted by: Dr. Roger Dec 1 2006, 02:07 PM

Hey Andy,

Any updates on your ride? I haven't heard from you in a while. =-)

Roger

Posted by: shoguneagle Mar 20 2008, 08:17 PM

I got to wondering what Andyrew was doing with his car project after 2005 and thought I would bring the thread into current view. Andy, if you are still involved, can you give an update?? Send me an email if you have time since I will be in the Modesto area in the first part of May. Hope you are still working on the car as a hobby.

Steve Hurt
Shoguneagle

Posted by: computers4kids May 23 2010, 10:05 AM

Andrew, it was great to finally meet you in person at the WCR2010 and talk more about your car. Thanks to Andy's new "Restoration" thread I saw yours and decided to read. Between it and the "hotrodder" thread, it was quite a read and journey you've been on with your car.

One of the things that poked at me was the value of using "manifold" vacumm over ported carb vacumm. I know my car has both ports for above and below the throttle plates. I suppose that below the plates would be equivalent to the "manifold" vacumm.

Still want to see your car in person!

Posted by: Andyrew May 23 2010, 01:25 PM

Thanks for the kind words!! Its interesting to me reading this thread from many years ago, There are a couple of things that I would have done differently and certainly some of those things I will incorporate into my new build.


I'll be starting a new build thread when I start with the new engine, it should be very interesting to see the comparison!