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Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 10 2004, 02:12 PM

I need some tubing to stiffen the 914 and tie into the rear and front shock towers.

What type and size should I use and where should I get it? I was thinking maybe 1 in from mcmaster.com or something.

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 10 2004, 02:45 PM

Well mcmaster isn't working.

What size DOM tubing should I use? Any suppliers on the net?

Posted by: synthesisdv Jul 10 2004, 03:00 PM

there must be a commercial supplier in your area.

just tell them you need DOM tubing. My cage is built with 1.5" tubing .095" thickness. This is the standard size tubing for a car that is near 2000 lbs.

dr

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 10 2004, 03:18 PM

Thanks I have seen a lot of metal places (huge buildings while driving and some in the phone book) I will call them up.

How much does it usually cost?

Posted by: Mueller Jul 10 2004, 04:28 PM

nothing personal, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster....

a couple of q's:

why the shock towers?

where is this "flexing" you think it going on?

do you have a cage?

do you have an inner long. reinforcements kit?

is the overall chassis solid? (floors, longs, rear box section under the battery)

are a certified welder or have years of experiance?

i'm not trying to be an @ss, but you can quickly turn your car into a dangerous pile of $hit if you are not careful

with our 914's, you need to make sure the cabin area is taken care of first, if you leave the area in between the firewalls bone stock and strengthen up every other location, you will put undo stress on the floor/longs and increase the chance of having the car fold up in half on you

Posted by: Brett W Jul 10 2004, 04:48 PM

Check out TW metals. They may have a local distribution area.

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 10 2004, 05:11 PM

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=4702
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=42
Not my car:


From what I have been reading: everywhere.

No and I don't want a full cage. Maybe a bolt in later that I can remove.

No and I won't need it when I am done.

Pretty solid except for some small holes in the floor. The upper firewall is kinda bad and so is the battery tray area (gone). Longs are perfect inside the cabin I have to double check the hell hole though.

No and no. But practice makes perfect and mig is not that hard.

Thanks for your concern and help I do appreciate it. If I am being an idiot tell me.

That was NEVER my intention. I will reinforce the inner longs at the same time similar to this
but not exact:

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2004, 06:15 PM

Practicing welding does not make perfect, it makes better.

I can weld, but....

I wouldnt trust my welds to something like this. For fear of getting something too hot, and warping it, and possibly blowing through the sheet metal (hey, I did it to my clutch tube.. I want hydrolic now... lol).

I am planning on doing some bracing to the engine to trunk firewall becaust I have to cut a hole in the firewall. Nothing dramatic, just one tube on the top, and one tube connecting both rear shock towers.
Remember, it adds weight!!!

Andrew

Posted by: seanery Jul 10 2004, 06:21 PM

I agree. Practice does help. IF, if, if you know what a good weld looks like. You can make a really pretty weld that doesn't penetrate, and you can make a really ugly weld that penetrates. Have someone that KNOWS tech you.

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 10 2004, 07:41 PM

Two things I always say is Hot weld, and cold weld.. I normally do a really hot weld, which risks warping, but I havent welded anything that really would suffer from that little amount of warpage. But it is very very very strong.

If it looks like a cold weld, I do it again and make sure I get it nice and hot (ie get both pieces of metal hot/melting..

Get some doors and practice...

I think theres some welding books out there...

Andrew

Posted by: TimT Jul 10 2004, 07:56 PM

K... have to step in

when you weld you want the heat in as small a weld area as you can.....no need to get the whole piece to hot.. get everything as clean as can be.... and spend extra time fiting things... then get yourself comfy and make some sparks

Posted by: ablose58 Jul 11 2004, 03:30 AM

I agrre w/TimT, fittment is one secret to a good fab job!!!! Also you want to be hot so you have good penetration Good luck

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 11 2004, 03:32 PM

Much like how I wasn't planning on blindly tubing my car (in fact I got the idea from this forum from people who race and have experienced problems) I wouldn't attempt to weld it myself unless I was confident in my abilities. I have been welding for a while and before I even started my first bead I had several books and articles under my belt.

It seems (from the replies) that most people on this board don't expect much from others as far as knowlege and reasearch goes. That is great for the noobs (as they get complete help and information) but I just feel a bit insulted. I would NEVER start a project or speak on a subject on which I had no clue about. I have noticed a lot of people defending to death things that if they had done a bit of reasearch they would know how wrong they are. (not in this thread I am just ranting)

I really appreciate all the help and advice thanks a lot.

Posted by: Mueller Jul 11 2004, 05:53 PM

really, then why ask what you did? you should know the answers or at least have a better idea...had you read something like this:

http://www.ioportracing.com/faq/rollbar.htm
or
http://www.pca-ggr.org/ggrrb5.html#_Toc59104755

and asked for a specific size (ID and OD) and type and larger than 1" in diameter, it would have given you a little bit more credibility on your knowledge and skill base.

too me, you have not done enough homework on the subject before posting questions like you want to believe:



and what if someone did say, "no, you can use 3/4" tubing from Mcmaster-carr"......would you be 100% satisfied and go ahead and start cutting and welding just because your read here that it would be okay??

this is a subject that is not cut and dry, it is not for your average person to answer...and the professionals may not want to answer it due to liability reasons

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 11 2004, 06:43 PM

Did someone say Professional?

I think I'm qualified to field this one on that basis, having owned a welding business for over 16 years.

corpeslaurel,
No offense intended, but what you propose doing looks like a waste of effort IMPO. For the amount of work involved it will not improve the car as much as you hope, and may cause enough distortion that you will be quite disappointed. Kind of the same as the 10 pc chassis stiffening kits and boxed trailing arms, which are more hype than they are worth.
The Brad Mayeur kit, the clamshell pieces, or the Engman long. kit are plenty adequate to stiffen the center of the chassis if a roll cage is not part of the plan. The Engman kit requires the least preparation, but the least increase in stiffness IMO.
The suspension area is plenty stiff for street driving and autocross until major upgrades to the handling potential are made.
Apart from the flex in the center of the chassis the other areas which can use some help are the inner and outer suspension consoles of the rear suspension. They have a tendency to eventually crack or tear spot welds when the car is heavily used for competition. Adding sheetmetal strategically to these areas will spread the loads so the weak points aren't stressed anymore.
I can provide more detailed information if needed.

Posted by: TimT Jul 11 2004, 07:58 PM

OK.. Corpselaurel?

what got your undies in a knot with this thread?

Racer Chris welds professionally..

I weld and write welding procedures profesionally!!

Im a profesional engineer.. structural is my niche.. bridges et al. I get my skills recertified every third year by the American Welding Society.

whats your beef?

read the rules... build your cage...

In the information age it shouldnt be to hard to find a supplier of DOM tubing..

Posted by: URY914 Jul 11 2004, 08:01 PM

There are stock car supplier sites that sell DOM tubing direct. Not too hard to find. "Goggle" roll bar and see what happens.

Paul

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 11 2004, 08:57 PM

Your right I have not done enough homework, considering this thread is right at the beginning of the research following the posts I have read on this site. I started asking about the tubing a few days ago. If you want to search I had a thread a few days ago in which I stated that this will happen next summer. The coming year worth of prep and research should prove enlightening.

I asked what type of tubing I should use from you guys since I have never done anything like this before. I don't see why all of you seem pissed at me for doing research and asking questions or because I stated that I do research and have done research on welding. You are right I have not done enough on this subject. I have searched this site to begin with and will continue my research throughout the following year. Why do you seem so pissed?
What I said still stands - you are doing it right now. Why did I ask - to learn. I think you took what I said the wrong way. My point was that I have/will research every aspect of any project BEFORE I start. That is why I asked. This post is part of it. I was offended because everyone seems to think the exact opposite that I will just jump into things without thinking it through.



Thanks I could def. use professional advice. Will reinforcing the suspension consoles with tubing not help with the cracking and tearing? I got the impression it would from the posts I have read. (see the links in my other post). I thought that since the tubing reinforcement would help I would run some across the length of the longs and the lower firewall (the same pieces engmans reinforces) so that the kit would not be necc. (hard to explain how exactly with out a diagram)

If I am wrong by all means tell me how to prevent the tearing and separating so that I can run higher spring rates in the rear with no worries.

Beef? None at all. I didn't say I was pissed, just offended. I know about fitment and prep work. I wouldn't trust myself if I had no clue. Who said I was pissed? Was it wrong to ask you guys? You race, you own the same type of car. Chances are you have worked on it more than I have. Thought you might have a preferred supplier. Sorry.


Already have. Just thought I would ask about type and maybe you guys had a preferred supplier.

Well, sorry to intrude on your little club.

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jul 11 2004, 09:03 PM

you can do it and these guys can help.

Posted by: LS6/914 Jul 11 2004, 09:08 PM

Here is my input to the question. In Washington I use Art Morrison for Certified thickness roll cage tubing. His products meet NHRA sonic thickness checks. His business offers mild, DOM, aluminum. & 4130. He has bent tubing for me to fit specific requirements. Excellent shop. They also offer videos on cage installation. (www.artmorrison.com) Good Luck, Larry

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 11 2004, 10:08 PM

A piece of 1" dia tubing is an excellent choice for the inner console. This is what I am using on my race cars.
First I weld a piece of .080" thick sheetmetal to the front side of the console and to the bottom of the firewall near the round depression. Then I weld a piece of tubing between them. The forces the inner console sees are primarily pushing it forward so the tubular brace spreads this force into the firewall and floorpan. No picture available right now, sorry.

For the outer console I use a shaped piece of .080 sheetmetal as shown, along with a piece of 3x2x.083w rectangular tube that is cut in a triangular shape.

I can fabricate these parts for you. (See my website. http://www.tangerineracing.com/Suspension.htm ) This will keep the area from flexing, and will eliminate the likelihood of cracking.


The spring rates aren't what causes the cracking. It's the sticky tires that increase the G loading.
According to Brad Roberts there is one more area that is prone to cracks, but I have never seen it. The area is at the rear of the main frame rail where it meets the rear engine comp. bulkhead. Apparently inside is a joint with inadequate welding between the panels which might fail due to high spring rates and 6 cyl engines which add a lot of weight to the car.



Pay no attention to the harsh remarks. You are certainly welcome to ask questions like these on this forum, and with a little luck someone with suitable answers will respond.

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 11 2004, 11:35 PM

Thanks larry and chris.
Chris, how much do you charge to fab those pieces? You can pm me if you wish - I didn't see a price on your site.

So I should stick to the engmans & clams? I just thought that using tubing would not only provide the same benifit but also help the suspension consoles while being more cost effective.

Brad roberts stated on http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=42&st=40 page that this setup....

Posted by: Mueller Jul 12 2004, 12:06 AM

sorry about busting your chops....I read your post as if you HAD already done all of your research...not that you still are.....my bad


adding your location would help as well, since there could be someone local that can point you in the right direction for material and fabrication.....with metal, trying to purchase in low volume and shipping can get very, very expensive

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 12 2004, 12:25 AM

While I agree with Brad that there is no need to go through the bulkheads for a non-roll cage stiffening solution, but I don't like that tubing setup. I don't think it would help the suspension weak points at all.
The Engman longitudinal reinforcement is far less work, will substantially cut down on flex, and doesn't get in the way.
The other two long. reinforcement types are a bit of work because some things have to be cut off to make room, but they do stiffen things up a bit more. The Brad Mayeur parts are very heavy gauge and install with relative ease. I just think they are unnecessarily heavy for what they are intended to do, and they make mounting the outer rockers more work. Usually these reinforcements are added when repairing rust. I am currently adding a set of clamshells to a car in my shop, along with a lot of rust repairs.

One thing about the parts I showed you - I have never tried to install them on a car with stock fenders and I'm not sure about the difficulty of doing that. The main reason for no price on the website yet is I haven't sold these separately before, only as part of a larger job I was doing.
I think $140 for the set would be about right, based on 2 hrs labor and a little $$ for the material.
I will take a look at the difficulty factor tomorrow at my shop, using the car I have up on my rotisserie for a test subject. I should be able to get a pic of the other reinforcement I described, from one of my cars.

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 12 2004, 07:13 AM

Mike I am in atlanta GA.

Chris, thanks. Well if I go with the engman kit and if you can fab up those pieces (assuming I can install them with the stock fenders) I think I will go ahead and do it now (since it seems everyone agrees) before por15ing the longs etc.

I don't mind the extra work of installing the clam shells if you think they stiffen better. I read a post of yours in my older thread where you said I don't need both (engman's and the clam shells). Cost is almost the same. I wonder if RD still gives the sale price? I need to email them.

EDIT: I guess I will not get the 10 piece kit since most agree that it doesn't do much if anything.
(let me know if I am wrong before I por15 everything ) I read that some pieces are good but are they good enough to order the kit?

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 12 2004, 07:28 AM

Here's one of the reasons the clamshells are more work. You have to cut off the door sills. It's probably a good idea to buy new ones at the same time as you get the clamshells.
They are stronger because they have a horizontal component top and bottom, and they extend all the way back to the outer susp. console.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 12 2004, 07:38 AM

Hmm, that pic looks scary. My car doesn't seem to be very rusty in that location and I already have the longs stripped....


Is there a fix to this or is it something I don't need to worry about? (might as well take car of everything )

EDIT: I mean this other area. I guess since you have not seen it I should be okay.

Thanks for all the help everyone, I know I come across as an ass or an idiot - I repeat myself a lot becuase I want to be sure. I don't want to hack and weld and then find out it was a mistake. I have never raced a 914 (this is my first) so I don't know much.

Posted by: TimT Jul 12 2004, 02:33 PM

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=169&action=product

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=168&action=product

Hoerr is in Peoria, Ill

Coleman also sells http://www.colemanracing.com/prodex/cat.htp?cat=TUBING

Most local steel suppliers have or can get DOM.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 12 2004, 04:53 PM

This was covered in an old topic with pictures, but I have no idea of what search criteria to use. Brad is really the expert on this one. I believe he suggested opening the area up and welding the weak spot with a reinforcement, then closing it back up. Cars with full cages don't seem to need the fix.

Today I determined that my outer console reinforcement is not too difficult to add to a stock fendered car. In fact I will be doing it to the silver/green car I am working on as soon as the clamshells are welded in place.
Here's a pic of the tubular brace I like for the inner console.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 12 2004, 04:59 PM

Oh,
I stock the 1" x .083w tube I use for these braces. I'd be happy to sell you some short pieces for this if you're buying the other parts.
I just don't want to become a specialty tubing supply house. Other companies already have that market sewn up, like Dillsburg Airplane Works in PA.

Posted by: corpselaurel Jul 12 2004, 10:39 PM

Chris thanks. I really appreciate all the help. I sent you a pm.