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Posted by: rick 918-S Aug 29 2011, 10:55 AM

There have a few posts in the last couple weeks and days about guys either crashing their cars or getting rear ended. I've seen these posts in the past and there always seems to be confusion that follws.

What should I do?

I read lots of good intensioned posts about getting a lawyer and running to the doctor. I'm not going to comment on that beyond saying if your truely hurt seek proper medical treatment.

I don't want people to dirty up this post with trash talk about appraisers that are intensionally trying to screw them. These guys have a job to do. If you understood the pressure they are under you would not be so fast to bash them. Lets not do that here.

First, I'm not an attorney or an appraiser. Nothing here should be considered legal advise or an iron clad method of settling your insurance claim. The following are mearly suggestions and tips that may help you to get a proper value and maybe settle your claim with less drama.

I want to clear up a couple things. A guy that works for an insurance company viewing automotive related damage, writting estimates and determining value for settlement are called appraisers. I'm not sure this applied to every state but I beleive in most states these guys do not need a license. Adjusters on the other hand do.

So you've been in an accident. your car is damaged. the following applies whether your dealing with your company or the other parties carrier.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH ASAP!

I worked for an insurance carrier as a adjuster. I was a multi-line claims rep. I handled bodily injury claims, large property losses and auto physical damage claims. The compnay also had guys that just did auto and others that just did liability. I wore many hats. I attended many training sessions over the years and made small talk with many appraisers. Over the many years I have been doing this I met approximately 6 guys that had a car hobby. American muscle cars. Not one of them even knew what a 914 looked liked.

This is why it is important for you to do your own leg work. If your not going to do this don't complain when you get a low ball offer for damage and salvage value. Most all appraisers rely on a data base that is tied into Car Fax, auto trader, and based on your zip code local news paper classifieds among other sources. These pull information for comps to assist in value. This is without regard to actual condition. Most of the guys were college guys hired to push paperwork out the door.

With the demand the carrier puts on these appraisers they must use these comps to set value and make offers. These guys are scored on the speed in which they settle and close a file. Their job depends on it. They are not trying to screw you they just only have so much info at their finger tips and have to do the best with what they have. Are you starting to see why it's so important to do your own leg work?

Lets say you were rearended like Adam and another guy on the Club site. For the sake of this example let's say you are only have liability on your 914 and you need to try and recover your damage directly with the appraiser of the guy that smacked the back of your car. Insurance appraisers settle damage and apply value based on comps. Here's a scenerio, you say, "I have all the receipts for the work on my car. I replaced the brakes, replaced the clutch and rebuilt the front suspension. I should be paid for that"! You try to agrue from the prospective of the value of your car. This is a common position. I've heard it a couple hundred times.

The standard answer and logic behind coverage is as follows. If you don't do maintenance on your car so it's safe to drive and provide you with a means of moving you from one place to another it will fail and leave you on the side of the road. So, all cars need maintenance, new tires, wheel bearings from time to time, tie rods and ball joints etc.. The maintenance you did to your car is a requirement for all motor vehicles and all motor vehicle owners. It does not add value over the average vehicle.

Here is an example of why I'm telling you how important it is to do your own research. Let's say for the sake of this next example you let the appraiser present you with an offer before you meet with him and hand him a stack of information from the best sources you can find. First, if he works directly for one carrier as an employee he made notes in a company file that can not be deleted or changed. This makes it hard to go back later and fix up the file and pay more money. His notes will be based on the comps he developed with no knowledge of classic cars, 914's and no knowledge where to get the best information of value. I will give you an idea of what his sources will develop.

For this example you have a 1973 2.0 35,000 miles appearance group.

Sources will likely be: NADA/Kelly Blue Book, Car Fax, Auto Trader, News Paper.

Comp 1: The computer generated report will likely list 1976 914 carb'd needs work but is a solid project car 1895.00 OBO.
Comp 2: 1974 914 1.7 mileage unknown battery relocated to the trunk, runs good. (photos show rust in the long but no sag) 2500.00 OBO
Comp 3: 1973 914 converted to V8 custom interior metal flake paint (photos show hell hole rust and a rats nest of hoses and wiring that would scare the hell out of the Jack Ass crew) Must sell! 3995.00 Firm!

Here's the example of the average value that these cars will bring: $ 1895.00
$ 2500.00
+ $ 3995.00
$ 8390.00
Divided by three give average market value = $ 2796.66

So based on the comps in the market at the time your offer for a totaled 914 would be $ 2796.66 plus tax title and towing.

That's how companies reach market value. All the comps are the same year or newer than your car. Even if you say, hey my car is worth $9000.00! here's the next step. Ok we will toss out the lowest car and refigure the market value.

Your car: $ 9000.00
Comp 2: $ 2500.00
Comp 3: $ 3995.00
total: $15495.00
Divided by three: = $ 5165.00 Still!

Now, present your comps: three cars you researched to be close in condition to yours all around the value of your car or more valuable than your car. Presented to the appraiser befroe he ran his comp numbers. This is a different scenerio entirely.

I'll add more to this later. I have to head out for awhile. If you feel compelled to post in this thread don't quote this because I'm not done yet.

Posted by: iamchappy Aug 29 2011, 11:21 AM

If it's not your fault do not move the vehicles, keep them just as they are until the cops and photos are taken. Harder to prove fault when cars are moved and the other person is a liar. Get witnesses as many as you can quickly....

Posted by: BajaXJ92 Aug 29 2011, 11:31 AM

More than happy to do the "leg work", as I'm sure most adjusters are very unfamiliar with the 914 breed. Luckily, I've got receipts for all of the parts and $ that I've put into this car as of the past 3+ months of ownership. Labor is another thing.

I will also wait to hear your definition of "leg work"...

Now, my medical issues are something entirely different and its definitely in my best interest to keep those details off of a public forum.

-Adam

Posted by: 76-914 Aug 29 2011, 12:33 PM

& what can I do now in preparation for a future claim?? see in 11 days, Rick.

Posted by: GeorgeRud Aug 29 2011, 01:21 PM

Hope you never have to make a claim, but be prepared. I would try to have values from Excellence, perhaps have a letter from the PCA valuation committee (if you are a PCA member), and keep any other documentation you can keep on file. EBay sales could also be helpful, and there is a NADA and other classic car valuation guides. Sales from auctions could also be helpful.

If you concours your car, keep the scoresheets in your folder. I always figured that if you can make the appraiser's job easier for him, you're more likely to get a fair value.

Posted by: rnellums Aug 29 2011, 01:40 PM

I think that another important part of this are pictures of the BUILD. That why all there restoration threads are invaluable. It encourages you to document every part of your 914 journey.

After mine was totaled this summer I followed the advice of many on here and had complete portfolio of my entire build from 2004-present. I have heard that parts receipts don't necessarily translate to an increased settlement value, but the photo album with before and after photos sure lets them know you have put in the wrench time.

Also I was sure to hand him several EBAY sales for 914's that were at the upper end of the 914 value spectrum.

Posted by: eric9144 Aug 29 2011, 03:04 PM

1st thing make sure you have a decent insurance company, I use AAA, there are a small handful of others that will stand up for you.

2nd, if you can, get 'collector car' insurance--DO IT! I pay about $10 a month for my 914, they do an 'agreed value' on the car--if you say it's worth $15k then they research it, take pictures etc, if they think you're right or even in the ball park then it's a done deal. That can be adjusted to match increasing market values with a visit to the local AAA office for a re-valuation. There are mileage restrictions but I want to say mines like 5000 annual so it's really not a big deal, I have a DD to mile up if I'm really going far.

3rd, Keep records, take pictures! Ross is a great example of that paying off with the other parties insurance...

This is like carrying a fire extinguisher in your car...better to have thought about the worst case scenario before it actually happens...

Posted by: stugray Aug 29 2011, 04:50 PM

Here is one point that I never see mentioned in these threads:

If you get insurance for a >30 year old car and you don't mention to them that the car is "special" or "concours quality" or "fully restored", then they are insuring you for the Blue Book value of the car.

If you then get your $40K 914-6/GT totaled and expect them to pay the full $40K, then I think the insurance company is not "being a dick" by offering you $5K for the car.

You have been paying to insure a $5K car all along, but now it is suddenly (to the ins. company) a $40K car.

So they have been losing money on you by not collecting the appropriate premiums for the car all along.

I don't think all ins. companies are ethical or even fair, but if we don't mention up-front that our cars are special ( and pay higher premiums), then should we expect to have the red carpet rolled out for us when we file a claim?

Just my opinion: Once you "fully restore" or "upgrade" your car, tell the insurance company.
They may not even raise your rates, but at least they cant say "well you never told us you put $20K into the car"......

Stu

Posted by: scotty b Aug 29 2011, 06:11 PM

In additon to what Rick and Stu said. IMHO anytime you invest the time and money a lot of you do in your car DO NOT use the standard insurance agencies for coverage. Use a collector car agncy like Haggerty. They are alot more understanding of the repair/replacement costs involved in these situations. Their reps are also a LOT more car knowledgeable than the standard Nationwide, Geico etc, agents are.

RECORDS RECORDS RECORDS are the best thing you caan do in the restoration process. Keep ALL receipts, take TONS of photos throughout the process. This all is your PROOF of the time and money tied up in your car. But even with all of this you will not get every penny you have invested back. You will have an agreed coverage amount. Much better from a collector agency than a non specialized company


Nice writeup Rick I'd love to see you do aa full detailed writeup / article on this topic to be locked and saved in the FAQ or Classics forum for easy futur access and reference

Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 29 2011, 06:39 PM

Thanks largely to Rick, I got full market value for my car when I wrecked it. They offered like $5K, I got around $15K.

Posted by: rick 918-S Aug 29 2011, 06:55 PM

QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 29 2011, 07:11 PM)

In additon to what Rick and Stu said. IMHO anytime you invest the time and money a lot of you do in your car DO NOT use the standard insurance agencies for coverage. Use a collector car agncy like Haggerty. They are alot more understanding of the repair/replacement costs involved in these situations. Their reps are also a LOT more car knowledgeable than the standard Nationwide, Geico etc, agents are.

RECORDS RECORDS RECORDS are the best thing you caan do in the restoration process. Keep ALL receipts, take TONS of photos throughout the process. This all is your PROOF of the time and money tied up in your car. But even with all of this you will not get every penny you have invested back. You will have an agreed coverage amount. Much better from a collector agency than a non specialized company


Nice writeup Rick I'd love to see you do aa full detailed writeup / article on this topic to be locked and saved in the FAQ or Classics forum for easy futur access and reference

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 30 2011, 07:38 AM

my experience of helping several 914 owners with insurance claims here falls in line with what Rick says above. the adjuster was pleased/ relieved that we handed him all the market research BEFORE he did any of it and BEFORE he had entered any of his own guess work into a CO data base. none of the insurance guys nkew anything about a 914 so they were happy to get copies of Excellence Mag 914 market value report. NADA values seem to be up for 914s also. we also gave him some high end ebay copies. only one of my customers had any build records but 3 of them had pictures showing the car to be straight and clean prior to accident.
I think the key is to be pro-active and gather teh info before the insurance adjuster does his own looking (that part is speculation)
also remember that his first offer is just an offer. many people I speak to dont know that they can counter that first offer. I think it is part of their job to minimize their employers losses so of course the 1st offer will be lower than what they can give you.
all of the claims I helped with were settled north of $10k on 4 cylinder cars...or they got their car repaired without a salvaged title

what constitutes a total loss? if repair costs exceed X% of total value...
I dont know what X is.

Posted by: eric9144 Aug 30 2011, 08:48 AM

QUOTE(sean_v8_914 @ Aug 30 2011, 06:38 AM)

Posted by: rdauenhauer Aug 30 2011, 09:49 AM

all good info, but can we stop calling these incidents "accidents" and start calling them what they are...collisions?

Posted by: rick 918-S Aug 30 2011, 11:03 AM

QUOTE(sean_v8_914 @ Aug 30 2011, 08:38 AM)

Posted by: Ferg Aug 30 2011, 02:45 PM

Thanks for the info Rick, I fall into the Hagerty group but same info would apply for the Daily Drivers, wife's car ect.

Few questions since we are on the topic, what is the trick (if any) to get compensated for Diminished Value these days???

How does one keep a minor accident from being reported to carfax if using insurance (if possible?)

If you are a extremely picky customer like yours truly, can I ever expect a "perfect" paint match on modern metallic's because I have yet to see one? I had to settle for 99 percent but it still bugs me...

RE: above, when do you call it in vs pay cash, in the above senario, wife backed into pole, fix was few hundred more than deductible so I paid cash, right move?

Do non accident related damaged raise your rates? (hail, vandalism, kids bike ect)

TIA

Ferg

Posted by: Ductech Aug 30 2011, 03:51 PM

Rich you ever see
"hot fuzz"....

Theres a line in that movie that says something along the line of " we don't call them accidents cause that implies no-one was at fault"

An accident is when you drop a tool on your buddies uber nice paint job. assramming a 914 at a stop light is a life altering shit story. collision much more appropriate.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Aug 30 2011, 06:15 PM

QUOTE(iamchappy @ Aug 29 2011, 10:21 AM)

Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 31 2011, 05:56 AM

I agree with Elliot 100% - get your phone out and shoot a bunch of quick photos to document position of the cars and location and then move them off the roadway to the shoulder ASAP.

I use to carry a yellow lumber crayon in my car in the event of a collision just to mark the tire locations and then move the cars. That was a hold over from my former career.

Posted by: jaxdream Aug 31 2011, 07:41 AM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Aug 31 2011, 03:56 AM)