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Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 09:26 AM

I am installing a 2.0 engine with Weber 40's fitted. This is my first experience with a carbed engine. It came to me with the fuel block/pressure regulator pictured below. It was marketed or made by PMO. It has a broken fuel barb and I need to repair or replace it.
My question: Is this a good system? It is "1 in/4 out", 2 out to carbs, 1 out to gauge, 1 out to tank. The return to the tank regulates the pressure with a hose clamp that restricts the outflow to the tank.
Should I fix or replace this or is there a better system. Haven't checked to see what pump I have yet. It has been moved up front. Haven't talked to PMO yet either. Thanks for any advice. Expect more questions in the next week or two as the install proceeds (wiring? breather hoses?). Stay tuned.


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Posted by: Bleyseng Apr 24 2003, 09:44 AM

Are you still using the stock FI fuel pump with that set up? I would install a proper carb fuel pump instead.
Geoff

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 09:47 AM

Like I said, haven't looked at the pump because it has been moved up front and is hidden. Car has been driven for several years with carbs so I assume pump is low pressure. I will check.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 24 2003, 10:54 AM

with a carb setup , you dont need return line to fuel tank. I have a noisy lil facet fuel pump up front and a purolator regulator out in the engine compartment. supplies my dual 44's good. facet fuel pumps are noisy!

Posted by: brant Apr 24 2003, 10:58 AM

I ran a return line on a carbed car...
Overall.. I recommend running a return line on a carbed car.

The theory being: that you are providing cooler fuel to the motor at all times.

brant

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 11:18 AM

Hum..


where do I start ..

ok.. I wont.

I'll just say what I use and you can make your own judgement.

I only use a regulator/return line/gauge when I'm running a racing type of fuel pump like a Holley Blue pump or Red pump. Everything you buy from a parts store like the FACET or knock off's of it (even the little rotary pumps) only put out 3.5 psi which is what all carbs (even triple throat) work well with. No need for a regulator or return line on street cars. Porsche didnt have a return line or a regulator on the 9146's and they used a big honkin pump that looks just like our fuel injection pumps (but pumps 3.5 psi) imagine that..LOL

Replace that barb and run with it. Hook up the return line or plug it. You'll be fine (as long as they have a generic pump up front)

Please NEVER try to regulate down a factory injection pump. A well known Rennlister burnt his wifes car to the ground when he put carbs on it and tried to regulate the factory pump to 3.5 psi. He is a ASE certified mechanic. LOL


B

Posted by: MarkV Apr 24 2003, 11:37 AM

I am running one of these w/ DRLA 40's. mounted where the stock pump was w/ no return line & no regulator. Nice and quiet.

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=577

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Apr 24 2003, 12:27 PM

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2003, 12:36 PM

this is the pump i was running on the 72. will be removed and put on the 73'. this location was prob not the best plan, will place on the 73 in a location down stream for the f line outlet at the lower firewall. i can't imagine a clamp to regulate the pressure to be the best way to go,flow restriction not presure reduction. this pump is quiet. the other small cyl is a f.p.r that came with the unit. cb performance. i do intend to install a gauge infront of the carbs just so i know whats going on. lost my f-in job today. lots of time to work on the silver car now, once i calm down.

kevin


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Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 04:10 PM

Burned to the ground you say.......just looked under the steering rack cover. I found a fuel pump that looks very much like a high pressure FI model. It looks the same as the low pressure one on my six, but it has a VW symbol and the number 0580463005 stamped on the motor end. That number does not match the PET part number which begins 311. It is the only number I can find on the pump. Can anyone look at a stock pump and check the number? I have a feeling the device pictured above was attempting to reduce 30 psi to 3.5! According to PMO's installation instructions the pressure is reduced only by restricting flow back to the tank (the clamp you see on the far left fuel line in the picture is the "reducer".)
Apparently it worked for the PO. Now what ?

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2003, 04:20 PM

somebody please explain. how could restricting the flow BACK to the tank, lower the fuel pressure? the 35psi at the pump would be 35 at the incoming side of the gauge. i can't remember what i paid for that rotary from cb, but it was pretty resonable. i'll go to their site and see what they get for them these days. i see, that was the link to the site. $42.95, that and some premium hose is cheap insurance. keeping the filter up stream from the pump is some what important. i'm going to install a petcock upstream of the filter. with where i intend to put my pump, it will be lower than the tank. changing the filter could be a bit gassy.

kevin

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 04:24 PM

Sorry LB. I should have been more clear.. I think it was early for me..LOL

I meant to point out.. the factory didnt do a return line from the carbs.

You are 100% correct. They used a return line from the pump.

B

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 04:27 PM

Kevin, my thinking exactly.
Brad, how about saying what you were thinking of saying?
The PO drove the car (hopped up race engine which blew up) with the PMO set up. I am installing a new engine in the car. I just found the PMO instructions which came with the fuel block/regulator. The device was (is?) intended to be used when converting a FI 911 to carbs. The claim is that you then do not need to change pumps. Same true of the 914 I guess. The directions are very clear, "pressure is controlled by restricting the flow back to the tank" using the "pressure clamp".
If I install the rotary from CB, should it be installed in the stock location or up front where the pump is now? I assume I must then plug the return line since it looks like the rotary only has "in" and "out".

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 04:32 PM

Basically they bleed off pressure not used. The stock system builds pressure against the regulator and "dumps off" what it doesnt need.

Jim's setup is doing the same thing.

Jim:

Here is what I would do:

Plug all the lines coming out of the block and turn the pump on for 4-5 seconds. Let the gauge show a reading and release the return line into a gas can. You'll know real quick whether or not you have a high pressure pump. BE CAREFUL. You can use your finger over the return hose to build pressure against. Make sure you have somebody in the car with the key on/off. It will only take a few seconds. Use a long long hose to reach the can if the gauge/return line setup is still in the car.

The guy who burnt his wifes car to the ground.. had a fuel line rupture because the pump built up too much pressure in front of the regulator. It burst a line near the fuel pump under the car while running down the freeway. FLAME ON.

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 04:36 PM

Sorry Jim.

You replied while I was replying.

On the CB pump:

The rotaries are good pushers but bad suckers. So.. they kind of need to be mounted towards the front of the car near the tank (just like a 911)

The Facet noisy pumps with the diaphram action suck and push very well. They can be mounted just about anywhere as long as they are mounted below the midpoint of the tank.

The stock pumps dont suck very well.. which is why they are mounted as low as possible in comparison to the tank exit lines.

B

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 24 2003, 04:38 PM

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2003, 04:41 PM

jim you can simply close off the return line by plugging it at the lower rear fire wall. or do it at the tank bottom and use of new short piece line. what did p use in the early carbed 4 cly engines? a return line? what sort of outlet in the bottom of the tank. to my mind, if the line failed at the reducing clamp, it would be line choking the spray nozzle down on a garden hose that's wide open. fine spray, goes further. i could never trust that setup thats on your ride jim.

kevin

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2003, 04:54 PM

acox, actually it was just above the spare cover. cb expressly warned against doing this (putting the pump in an enclosed space). but i saw a picture of a factory race car with the pump upfront. i wanted the pump loacted where i could see exactly what was going on. brad, if the pump was mounted in the region of the stock filter, i would think thats about the same or lower the tank outlet. as long as the rotary doesn't have to pull the fuel uphill, wouldn't that solve the push/pull issue?

kevin

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 05:09 PM

Brad, if I understand correctly, the stock pump is not shooting out 30+ psi fuel but rather the stock FI pressure regulator is "plugging things up" so as to create high psi. If I hear you correctly, I could continue to use the PMO set up, especially if I use high pressure hose and make sure the gauge is reading 3.5 psi (PMO says 4 to 5 and turn up to 6-7 at the track, but maybe that is for a six).

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 05:09 PM

Yes it does Kevin. I wanted to point out you can't mount them in the engine compartment and expect them to work like they are designed to.

They work fine in the stock location.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 05:19 PM

Your are reading correctly Jim.

4-5 is "safe" for print purposes. You may or may not be able to get that pump down to 3.5-4.

I say run it and see what you can get it down to. I dont have enough info on your fuel pump to make a educated judgement.

B

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Apr 24 2003, 05:23 PM

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 05:24 PM

As always, you are a great resource Brad. I am 99% sure my pump is the stock FI pump. I intend to replace the broken hose barb and plumb things as they were. If the gauge reads 3.5-6 (and if fuel is not leaking or blowing by the needles) I'll leave it alone. I'll report when I get the engine in and running. I'm sure I'll have a few more questions for this board before I light the fire (no pun intended).

Kevin, thanks to you as well. I'll be in touch soon for a repeat on your instructions regarding a breather box. I found one at a VW shop as you suggested, just need a reminder on how to hook it up.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 05:27 PM

LB,

I know just enough to be dangerous. I cant/wont recall everything every time.

I do my best to not lead this group down dangerous paths..

Luckily we have several people who can correct me when I'm wrong.


B

Posted by: seanery Apr 24 2003, 05:28 PM

Call me a nervous nelly but I agree with Rhody's post earlier. I don't think I could trust that setup.

I'd go out and spend $45 and get a facet, mount it like the 75 cars did up front and be happy and safe with a new low pressure pump. (This is how I did my -6 conversion by the way).

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 05:35 PM

Sean, I have some reservations too. My thinking is that it worked before; it was designed by PMO the carburetor specialists; and, if the gauge reads 3-5 psi then the "restriction/regulation" from the clamp on the return line is not very much. It sounds to me like it is the pressure regulator in the stock system which allows the build-up of high pressure, rather than the pump itself.

Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Apr 24 2003, 05:36 PM

When I was in Virginia, my fuel pump died. I pulled it, and discovered it was some old Mitsubishi model, totally gunked up with rust and crap.

I called every FLAPS in Richmond, but couldn't find a Facet. I settled on a Purlolater model, that pushes 3-5 psi. After 2 years, it's worked well so far. Oh, no return line.

-Rusty

Posted by: seanery Apr 24 2003, 05:45 PM

Jim,

I trust PMO, I guess if they said it was OK, then I'd trust Richard's judgement, but I'd definitely replace ALL hoses with PMO's recomendation, or have them send me the hoses they use.

You'll have to fax Richard at PMO, they don't do the phone thing, but he should call you back.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 05:52 PM

Do like I said and find out exactly what the pump puts out. I'm betting its a low pressure/low volume unit that they like to sell with a factory part number. They may have used that pump in other cars.


B

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2003, 07:09 PM

jim, is the hose on the left "protected" from the clamp by electricians tape? if so that's a nice touch. phiss, spark, whoomp. damn, should've sprung for the "known pump".

kevin

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 07:14 PM

Damn.. Kevin. Your starting to sound like me (havent had a job in 16 months)




B

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 24 2003, 07:24 PM

Yep, the tape is under the "regulator" clamp. I'm going to fax PMO tomorrow as Sean suggested. Hope I get a response.

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 24 2003, 07:40 PM

brad, actually it's ok. the wifes been telling me to walk away from that "turkey ranch" for months. all ready spoke with the attorney, things could go down hill for them in a hurry, when i decide to screw with someone i get real personal. everything on that project is going to come to a screeching halt. all of the "project notes" are stuffed in my little pea brain. they don't have shit. like i said, lots of time for the silver car and yard. like you said, "vulgar display of wealth", right. i'll go down to arcata ca. and visit my oldest son.

on my thread re multiple pictures. you said send you the pictures and you'd make a thumbnail and post. what's the place to send the email to,can't include pictures via the 914 site that i can figure. i'm a computer dope, i mean it, lower case postings and a picture or two is all i can handle. the directions others provided were great, but it's like swell what does all this mean? got off topic. go ahead and spank me guys.

kevin

Posted by: seanery Apr 24 2003, 07:47 PM

Jim,

You WILL get a response. I'd bet money on it!

Posted by: campbellcj Apr 24 2003, 09:49 PM

FWIW this is the "possibly temporary" pump & filter setup on my -6 conversion. It may either be redone or moved, depending on the fuel cell setup I decide on (rectangular on the trunk floor vs. bladder in the stock tank.) This is a stock 914-6 fuel pump (I think).

I can't think why you'd need a pressure regulator if you have the correct pressure/volume pump?


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 24 2003, 10:03 PM

Kevin,

My email address is Brad@all914.com Send the pics to that email address. When you start the new email to me... your email client will have a "insert" button that allows you to select the pics you want to send to me.


B

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 25 2003, 09:41 AM

sent email w/ 12 pictures. did you get it?

kevin

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 25 2003, 10:59 AM

Havent checked email yet... and I need to leave to pick up a 914.

B

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2003, 01:50 PM

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 25 2003, 06:47 PM

that's $42.95 for the rotary w/pr. you can barely here them run.

kevin

Posted by: balthazar Apr 25 2003, 06:59 PM

VW-058046300- is the part number off a pump I pulled from a 74' 1.8 rust- bucket. This is very similar to your number. Prolly stock or OE replacement...IMHO

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 25 2003, 07:22 PM

Thanks Balthazar, sounds like I have a stock FI pump.
I am waiting for call from PMO. Faxed them today.

Kevin, what is pr?

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 26 2003, 07:09 AM

pressure regulator. perhaps i should'nt be so lazy and stop throwing abreviations in. sorry. i've got a couple of facets lying around jim. do you want to try one out? mail to your place would be around 4 bucks. their just in the way in a drawer. i know for a fact that the one off the white wreck (moby dick, can't seem to get it out of the driveway, my nemisis) is functional.

kevin

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 26 2003, 09:50 AM

Thanks Kevin. I have a facet on the shelf too. I am going to wait for a response from PMO, then probably hook up the existing system and check the pressure as Brad suggested. If it seems risky, I will go with the rotary like yours. For only $42 might as well have quiet. Is there a regulator shown in the picture of your pump? I see only the pump and 2 filters.

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 26 2003, 10:37 AM

jim, the small canister with the arrow is the regulator assem that comes WITH the pump. pre assembled and ready to go. if you have to buy an adjustable regulator it would drive the cost of a new facet to about the same price, and imho you still need a fp gauge. go to the cb performance site. i still intend to install a fuel pressure gauge when i complete my swap.

kevin


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 26 2003, 10:49 AM

Those regulators are junk. (sorry.. I stopped running them in 1990 when I was 20 years old) again.. the typical carb pumps put out what you need without a regulator.

If your doing the car correctly (and want a regulator) pop for the real thing and buy a Mallory from Summit racing.

The gauge is a good idea if you fiddle with tuning and setting the floats. Most people dont.


B

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Apr 28 2003, 10:38 AM

Sean, your faith in Richard at PMO is well placed.
I faxed him about noon Friday and he called at 9:30 this morning. Pretty good service considering I was not a customer and only "inherited" a PMO part.

He said they still produce the device and sell it with their carb conversion kits for CIS 911 pumps which are 90 lb. pumps. The high pressure is only created by the restriction created by the FI pressure regulator.
He said as long as my return line to the tank has no restrictions (kink/pinch, etc) I can use the clamp to create the restriction in the return line to dial in the correct pressure. The only way the pump would generate 30 lbs. is if some other restriction would plug things up. Think I'll use the system.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 28 2003, 10:42 AM

I couldnt imagine PMO selling anything that didnt work.

Cool. Get the car running.

Oh.. Kevin.. juts for fun.. The regulator in your pic above is set to wide open on number 6. Throw it away.. its not doing anything. That is the regualtor that builds pressure in the line instead of bleading it off thru a return line like the PMO and factory setup.

B

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 29 2003, 07:35 AM

brad, i don't use that fpr any more. i use the cb unit in the 72 that will be transplanted into the 73.

kevin