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Posted by: dian Sep 25 2011, 11:07 AM

hi yall

can a supercharger be put on a 74 2.0 l fi car? anybody seen one, done it? thanks.

Posted by: shuie Sep 25 2011, 12:48 PM

Back in the early-mid '90s there was a shop in the Port Orange/South Daytona area that did it a few times. The intake runners from the stock injection where used with a 66CID roots style blower & a big carb. IIRC, the blower made ~6lbs of boost and the engine put out maybe ~175hp. It's a pretty low tech setup when you consider the hotrod parts, engine managment systems, and information that we have access to now, but this was super badass back in the day. One of the supercharged cars this shop built made it into a VW & Porsche magazine. I have a scan of the article I can post if anyone wants to see it.

Posted by: Dr Evil Sep 25 2011, 12:58 PM

Always interested in stuff like this. Post it! Thanks

Posted by: shuie Sep 25 2011, 01:08 PM

Here you go. My current project car is one of the supercharged cars that came from this shop. The motor in mine was blown up and is long gone, tho. I've seen 2 more of the cars recently that are still on the road. Anyway, here is the article.

Posted by: ottox914 Sep 25 2011, 01:15 PM

I'd be interested in seeing more on how the belt drive was set up.

Posted by: shuie Sep 25 2011, 01:28 PM

Here's another photo that shows a little more of the belt:

Posted by: JmuRiz Sep 25 2011, 01:29 PM

That's darn cool, I really like the oil cooler setup too (with a stoneguard it may just work for me...hmmmm).

Posted by: shoguneagle Sep 25 2011, 01:30 PM

Interesting! Interesting! I can see "the black EVIL ARTS of the good Dr. Evil working overtime on this subject". Old technology but still provides additional dependable horsepower.

Need to learn more about this.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 25 2011, 01:47 PM

I always liked the idea of running a Kompressor on a T4.

I think it would be a perfect match ...

Posted by: Dr Evil Sep 25 2011, 02:28 PM

Mercedes c230 has a good, cheap and plentiful donor I intend to put one on the bus some day....way in the future.

Posted by: stugray Sep 25 2011, 02:59 PM

I just posted the other day in another thread:

It would be interesting to put a toyota 6 cyl, front wheel drive engine (camry, solara) in the rear of a 914.

You can put on a TRD supercharger for under $2500 and have >250 HP.

I always wondered if I could fit a 6cyl transverse automatic in the 914....

Stu

Posted by: Dr Evil Sep 25 2011, 04:13 PM

It seems like a hard way to accomplish something. But, I like innovation so please do it and document it

Posted by: ottox914 Sep 25 2011, 04:16 PM

How does this drive off the engine? I still don't get that, and would like to see it. Interesting the old school belt- non-ribbed, and the slight amount of wrap on the SC drive pulley. The 4 rib we use on the 240 HP miata I've been codriving for autocross this season has a ton of wrap and is about at its limit- more boost will require us to go to a 6 rib.

Something like that would be interesting with SDS or megasquirt to control spark and some fuel injectors mounted in the factory runners. Wonder if we could design an A/W intercooler/plenum to go under the s/c and pump up the boost...

(still like the 914 > miata for autox, but it was a fun co-drive for this season)

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 25 2011, 07:54 PM

You could use the crank pulley for the smog pump to drive the SC

Posted by: bigkensteele Sep 25 2011, 08:37 PM

Awesome!!!! I have been looking for this article for years. I remember reading it and keeping the mag for future reference, but after about 5 moves, it is long gone.

Thanks for the scan!

Posted by: zambezi Sep 25 2011, 09:57 PM

Use a pulley like the one I am using on my A/C setup. I believer they were for bus / type 4 engines.

Posted by: Randal Sep 25 2011, 10:19 PM

+1

And all the low end torque problems go away.

Posted by: Randal Sep 25 2011, 10:20 PM

Problem solved. Nice setup.

Posted by: racerbvd Sep 25 2011, 10:42 PM

Yes, Jay at RPM did some very cool stuff back then.. I use to go to his shop with Phil..

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 25 2011, 10:46 PM

How well does it fit the firewall?

--DD

Posted by: stewteral Sep 25 2011, 11:01 PM

Hey Shuie

I have just 1 BIG Question: What about cooling? Is there any data on Cyl Hd temps? Air cooling of smog engines was a bit edgy to start with, and since HP = Heat, the extra power has GOT to push the operating temps up!

Anyone have any info on this?

Terru

Posted by: kg6dxn Sep 25 2011, 11:04 PM

How about a centrifical supercharger to an air/water intercooler, to a Mustang throttle body on the stock plenumn. Top it off with programmable fuel injection...

Posted by: dian Sep 26 2011, 03:06 AM

are there centifugal superchargers, that are small enough? vortech starts at 550 hp (as per their site). vw g-lader?

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 26 2011, 06:38 AM

That's a pic of my car...

I would be happy to supply more pics if anyone is interested...

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 26 2011, 07:20 AM

That's a pic of my car's engine. I bought this car about 16 years ago. I have moved around, but always brought the car with me from place to place. Currently I am working to get the car back onto the road. I had though to start a build thread but could not figure out how to do that in the club forums.. A few senior members have been really helpful to me THANKS!
As I understand it it was built in the early 90's at a Fla speedshop called RPM by a Porsche guru named Jay..I do not think the shop is still around. I did make contact with another 914world member who knew Jay back when he was building cars. He mentioned that his shop was always doing innovative modifications to 914's.

The engine is a '75 2.0 Liter California (as I understand it, this is a variation of the 2L but I am not sure of the exact difference, expets here will have more knowledge about that, maybe sl. larger dispacement?), anyway the setup has a bolt on blower being driven by the crank, the belt wraps around the alternator then an idler pully then over the top of the supercharger pully. A weber carb sits on top of the SC. The car souds like a Lear jet when it's running...
Years ago I had a new SC pully lathed out of aluminum, much better than the pully it came with. When I got the car it had been built for the track, brake mods, suspention mods, fuel cell (original tank removed), nothing but a racing seat wheel and dashboard in the interior (would guess thtat the car was stripped down to reduce weight). The body is a 73 model, but modified with steel flares.
What other pics would be helpful? I would be happy to help out.

I would love to speak with anyone who may have worked on this car or has experience with the supercharging work that was being done "back in the day" with the Fla crowd back in the 90's.

Would also be interesting to see how many of these RPM supercharged cars are still around.

Exciting to see there's another one out there!

Send me a PM to connect...

Posted by: Dr Evil Sep 26 2011, 11:30 AM

Thanks for sharing! This is all very fascinating.

Posted by: 914Mels Sep 26 2011, 04:20 PM

Has anyone tried using the superchargers off a toyota MR2 or Previa van? They use a electric clutch to engage much like a A/C compressor does. I'd think the MR2 might be a good match engine size wise.

Posted by: Brett W Sep 26 2011, 05:07 PM

Jay was one of the pioneers of the twin plug setup for the Type 4 back in the day as well. If I remember right he used a Nissan distributor to control the four extra plugs.

As for blowers, currently I would use anything from Eaton. They are light years ahead of most others on the market as far as efficiency. The Buick and Pontiac 3.8 litre V6 engines used a perfect size Eaton for the Type four. You could port and polish the insides to increase the efficiency. Use a modern fuel injection and you might have a chance of getting the engine to live long enough to make a reasonable amount of power. But in the end your still dealing with an engine that was borderline to begin with as far as cooling and cylinder head design. You will be lucky to keep the heads on long enough to make any reasonable power.

I would also worry about the small nose bearing on the crankshaft. The extra stress from the blower drive could prove too much for that tiny bearing. I know Ford Added a supplemental bearing support for the nose of the crankshaft on the Supercharged Cobras.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 26 2011, 07:58 PM

No difference, just a catalytic converter and a smog pump. It may have been used originally because of the smog pump drive, which came out of the center of the fan.

--DD

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2011, 08:28 PM

All that and they expect a carb from a Ford Pinto to feed it. Humorous.

Posted by: tscrihfield Sep 26 2011, 08:30 PM

I second the motion!

Gotta love and hate this site for these ideas!

Posted by: bigkensteele Sep 26 2011, 08:35 PM

Jake, I was waiting for you to weigh in. It almost sounds like you are dubious.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2011, 08:51 PM

Oh, I am sure it would work... Built an SC engine in 2000 using an Eaton m62.. Did it once, never again.

Posted by: TC 914-8 Sep 26 2011, 10:58 PM

Sorry guys not a T4 but here is a picture of a Paxton Blower I put on a Ford V-6 which went into my first 914. It was originally from a Studebaker. It worked well on the 2600cc V6, I modifided it several times eventually adding an intercooler. Blowers definetly add low end torque, no turbo lag!!!

Posted by: Brett W Sep 27 2011, 11:37 AM

A properly sized and tuned turbo engine has no turbo lag either.

Posted by: r_towle Sep 27 2011, 11:38 AM

Seesm that a supercharger would be simpler with the retention of the heating system.

Rich

Posted by: Drums66 Sep 27 2011, 02:30 PM

...That be funny

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 27 2011, 03:16 PM

I'll take a closer look at the pulley, I think your right Dave, the belt may not be able to loop around without an offset crank pulley.

I am sure the belt wraps around the alternater though. If there is interest I will take a bunch of shots of the configuration of the belt and pully system.

Thanks Dave for the info on the California 2.0L was not sure of the difference I thought it may have been slightly different dispacement or slightly higher HP...Thanks for the correction!

Also, there was a mention of a twin plug design coming out of Jay's RPM shop in Daytona...my car has this dual plug set-up although it is not hooked up. And the distributor for that set up is either a nissan or suburu I can not remember exactly. Never had the twin plugs setup to run, The stock distributor caps works for 4 wires (5 with the coil), but one section of the cap needs to be filed down to fit the ditributor body..still has points in the dist. I will take some pics of this, maybe someone can identfy the type of dist it is, likely not Bosch?
I need to look closer at this, since I am getting close to getting the car up and running after many years of storage. Detonation concerns from some guyswho know ALOT more than I, have me a bit concerned as well. A certain shop in Altanta does not recommend using this SC set-up at all and will not work on the car unless I switch to something different, they suggested a dual carb set-up (i can understand that from a liability standpoint so I am more disappointed than peved)..but his may open its own can of worms (twin carbs) since I do not know what was done to the engine internally with the compression of pistons and cylinders etc. Part of me thinks the twin carbs would be a good idea, but a larger part wants to get this going like it was designed years ago with the SC setup.

Any thoughts?


I would love to get this car on the 914world forum . Everyone is so helpful and supportive, I love reading through the build threads! Some of these cars are just incredible, And I can use all the advice I can get.
Larry

Posted by: Rod Sep 27 2011, 03:58 PM

Where do I get one of those pullies??!!

Posted by: racerbvd Sep 27 2011, 06:23 PM

I sent him the pix you sent me, as he hung out at the shop at that time, sent them to a few other friends as well, but nothing yet, also working on getting Jay's current contact info for you.


Correct, Phil had one of these engines, and it was FAST!!! I also have one, but need a new Naps Z distributor (these came out of Nissan pick ups) Mine vanished

Posted by: Brett W Sep 27 2011, 06:48 PM

If you want to supercharge it, go for it. While I don't think the T4 is a proper candidate for boost, its a T4, they are a dime a dozen, if it pops you can build another.

I would use a two barrel Holley carb and a MSD Boost Timing Master to control your iginition retard if you decide to stick with a carb. Personally I would use fuel injection to get proper control of the timing and fuel. The Holley two barrel will have more options for jetting and adjustments to work good on and off boost. Watch your cylinder head temps and timing advance. Don't want to pop the heads off the first time out.

I was just looking on Rock Auto and they show the 1985 Nissan 720 pickup as the one having the twin plugs. I will have to look for the old VW Porsche Magazine that had the article about the twin plug engines. Can't remember if he used the whole dizzy or just the cap. You can do it, who cares what everyone else says. If you need bring it to Huntsville and I will work on it.

Posted by: biggy72 Sep 27 2011, 06:58 PM

I had an 80 200SX with what I think is the same twin plug setup as the pickups.

They probably are refusing to work on it for more of a lack of knowledge than liability. They are probably thinking it would be cost prohibitive for the time it would take for them to figure it out. I personally think this would be a cool setup with efi. I know the carb can work (look at most hot rods with super chargers), but the efi would just be way more efficient about getting the fuel spray into the cylinder still atomized.

I'm curious how are the heads setup for twin plug?

Posted by: racerbvd Sep 27 2011, 08:43 PM

Jay was a machinist and had a dynoe to tune the stuff with, he also programmed his own chips.. My twin plug RPM engine has been stting for a while, so it will get resealed & such, I'll get lots of pix when the time comes..

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 27 2011, 09:52 PM

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 27 2011, 10:17 PM

The pully on the crank of the car is not offset. There is another pulley and bracket bolted to the fan housing then goes under idler pulley then over and around the SC and back to the crank pulley. The second pulley allows the belt to clear the fan housing. I completely forgot about the second pulley. it can not be seen it in the pics. I will get new pics as soon as I can figure out how toget them off my DROID and onto the 914world website.
Larry

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 27 2011, 10:39 PM

Dave,

There is surprisingly ample room for the belt to travel behind the firewall.

Larry

Posted by: lrm914 Sep 27 2011, 10:45 PM

Hey Brett,

I may take you up on the offer to bring it to Huntsville...I am right in Cave Spring Ga.
That famous 914 shop in Atlanta is not interested in doing the engine work, I do need a good Type IV mechanic, wonder how much it would cost to ship the car to you...you were serious right?

Larry

Posted by: racerbvd Sep 27 2011, 10:47 PM

E-mail the pix to your PC, or pull the chip & get an adaptor to down load into your PC..

Posted by: Brett W Sep 28 2011, 06:38 AM

I could come get the car. I have a tow rig and trailer for this purpose. But right now I am covered up with stuff that needs to get done. It may be a month or so before I can get to it.

What is the condition of your engine? If the base engine is no good, there is no point in pushing your luck any further.

Posted by: shuie Sep 29 2011, 10:04 PM

lrm914, I just sent you a few emails with some info I have collected over the years. Let me know if that stuff doesn't go through and I'll send it again.

Posted by: paroxysm Sep 30 2011, 07:14 PM

I thought about using the charger off my g60 on my type 4, but went the swap route instead.

Posted by: Dasnowman Apr 11 2013, 01:35 AM

Interesting!

Posted by: falconfp2001 Apr 11 2013, 01:45 PM

I actually have a Judson that needs rebuilding. Unfortunately they are only for Type 1 style engines where the fan shroud is above not below and the single PICT carb.

They only added a small amount of HP.

They are very pricey if you find one.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Apr 11 2013, 06:01 PM

Okay, I got kind of lost/sidetracked while reading this thread, especially in regarding to the dual spark distributors.

But there is a really cool thread over at the Samba where someone created a dual dizzy setup for a Type 1 - I didn't even know this was possible!



Video of it running here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451493&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Posted by: Mblizzard Apr 11 2013, 06:22 PM

I did a supercharger once in the 90s on a 2.0 but kept it fuel injected. Cooling was always the biggest problem. While we were able to program (trick) the brain box into pouring massive amounts of fuel in resulting in some serious power, we were never able to cool it well enough. It was a beast to drive with the sound of a million pissed off bees right behind your head. It died in a fiery internal meltdown but what a trip it was.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 13 2014, 01:05 PM

Hey George,

If you google "964 distributor belt" you will see how similar in design that one in the picture above is to how the factory did it on the 3.6 motors. I had to replace the belt in mine when I 1st bought the car.

And a bump for supercharged Type IV's !

Posted by: ablesnead Dec 13 2014, 01:59 PM

I owned the first finished type 4 dual plug head from Jay..he used a Nissian pickup distributor...I bought and delivered the mill he used..everyone could notice how much smoother the idle was ( carbs )...I had no frame of reference for a power difference . Jay was part of the crowd building 600 horsepower CSI turbos for the 3.2 guys back in the day . I don't believe that he was a machinist , but he was very bright , and lacked integrity...Tim Studdard of Grassroots ( ax action then )used to hang at the shop sometime , working on a 914 if I remember right . I drove Jays street car ...CSI turbo on a 2.7 I think.. I won my class in the GUNNER CUP with it...astounding acceleration even by today's standard...I ran across an ad for RPM recently in another state I think, still advertising twin plug...man Time flies

Posted by: Maltese Falcon Dec 13 2014, 03:23 PM

Don't forget to service the bearings, shafts and drain/ refill with oil at 100,000mi. intervals. More maint. on the supercharger is the reason I prefer turbos over superchargers. Magnacharger going in for service, shown here
Marty

Posted by: 3d914 Dec 18 2014, 07:00 PM

This is very cool. Keep us posted with added info.

TIA

Posted by: Mueller Jan 16 2015, 11:58 AM

Back up again for those that like strange stuff

Found some super small superchargers from Aisin, supposedly used as smog pumps.
Can be found on ebay and other places pretty cheap.

AMR500 if you want to google it...

According to some of the places selling them one could get 5psi on a 1600cc motor if driven 2:1 so that you don't exceed max rpm of the supercharger which is 18000max or 16000 continuous...not sure that the redline of a 1.7 is?

Perhaps run 2 of them?

It would still seem smarter or more ideal to use an Eaton supercharger from a small Mercedes or Mazda(?)

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 16 2015, 12:18 PM

Those would fit nicely on my 3.6L ...

Posted by: mgp4591 Jan 16 2015, 12:40 PM

Howzabout a centrifugal supercharger like a Paxton or a Procharger? Isn't that like the G60 supercharger also? Run it thru a water to air intercooler for maximum benefit on an aircooled engine...

Posted by: Dr Evil Jan 17 2015, 12:57 PM