I am retrofitting this thread to be my full on conversion thread, documenting my change from dual 40 Webers to MSII fuel injection.
Here is what I have so far, and what I need:
1.7 and 1.8 runners are not the same, 1.8 is slightly bigger, but won't match up to the 1.7 plenum. I have no 2.0 stuff to compare. The 1.8 runners will bolt up to your heads, that much I know. I always thought the 1.8 injectors were high, but several here have actually measured them, and found them low just like the rest.
I pretty sure the stock throttle body bore for a 2.0 is 45mm.
Yup, none of the intake runners are the same or interchangeable with other plenums, although I have cut and reoriented intake runners. Specifically getting a set of 1.8 runners to match a 2.0 plenum.
All 914 injectors are low impedance. L-Jet uses a resistor pack to 'emulate' high impedance injectors. If you want to use stock injectors with MegaSquirt, you can get one of those resistor packs to do the same.
The 2.0 throttle body has a flat bottom, and the 1.7, 1.8 have taper/cone bottoms. You could look into the size of the bus 2.0 TB.
Since you want to use newer parts, L-Jet (1.8) is the way to go.
The air plumbing is not interchangeable. The J-tubes for 1.8 and 2.0 are the same diameter but different length. 1.7 are a bit smaller.
There are many cars fitted with L-Jet so you can rip parts from them.
Ont thing you should pay attention to is the Air flow sensor. Older L-jet (like the 914) have a potentiometer that has a linear relation to the air volume. Newer ones are not linear (to save manufacturing cost) ant the ECU compensates for linearity.
If the 1.8 and 2.0 intake runners are the same ID, are the throttle bodies also the same ID? Will I be starving my 2056 using the 1.8 throttle body?
In the research I did it looked like the Bus plenum/TB worked/flowed better in a 2056 setup w/L-jet. IIRC that comes from discussions on Jakes site and Shoptalkforum...
If you are going to megasquirt, is there a plenum and set of sensors from a
common, modern car with a MAF, like a newer VW that would work?
Not using ITBs would allow you to use a lot of stuff from a more recent car.
what carbs do you have now? why not use them and weld in injector bungs to the manifolds?
My primary goal is to kill the roar of running dual carbs. Get to a point where I don't need earplugs to go on a longer drive.
All the other benefits of EFI come second to this sime creature comfort. Otherwise I'd just keep the carbs.
How about getting a TPI setup from a Chevy V8 and cutting it down to 4 cylinders
You can probably build an air-box for a lot less than that. Heck, just build it around your current air cleaners! Dyna-mat it (and make a long-ish intake snorkel pointing somewhere back away from you) and it should absorb a lot of the sound.
I finished building this same thing recently in the quest for quiet plus better low
end response. I need to post some pictures...
I tried it with and without dynamat on the runners and stuff and found it made
I welded up the carb tops and made a dual 3 inch / one 4 inch center plenum then
added a $25 cone air filter. Think I spent $60 total on it.
It feels a lot quieter but my sound meter does not show much improvement DB wise.
I'll post pictures when I get home.
There are a lot of other advantages of EFI, especially for cars that sit for long periods of time like mine. Both my 914 and the v8 in my jeep are going EFI though it would probably be easier just to do the carb.
cant you just redrill the intake flanges and bolt the whole shabang on there? Sound like it can handle your engine with a bit of adjustment.
Hey Zack, Will you be our "FI Poster Boy" when the next great "Carbs vs. FI" debate comes around, again?
Zach, I'm glad you're asking this stuff. I drive the 1.7 but have a 1.8 waiting in the wings for a 2056 build up. Was wondering the same thing about the 1.8 runners being larger. They "seem" larger but when I threw my caliper on them, I got mixed measurements (mostly because I can only get on the bends on the runners in the car).
Still batting around L-Jet vs MS so research and learn away while I piggy-back on your findings!!!
I apologize if this is a hijack. I would like EFI for a lot of reasons as well but I
thought I would see in a quick and dirty way how much the carbs could be
The carb tops and plenum are just welded up exhaust pipe and 20 gauge sheet
metal. I put eastwoodmat around the carb tops. The tubing, couplers, and cone
filter are cheap FLAPS parts.
I need to do some more tests but my initial results are 88 db with itgs at 900 rpm
and 82 db at 760 rpm with my cheesy intake system. I was getting 104 db at
2600 rpm with itgs and never took a good reading with the new system at that
rpm. I'll get on that.
Now I can hear the exhaust a little but also a lot of general air cooled noise that
is not intake related.
This seems to help low end throttle response but obviously would be restrictive
past a certain rpm.
Zach, if you get the v3 board on the megasquirt, it will run low impedance injectors. Diy auto tune is where I got my ms2 with the v3 board. At that time it was 249.00 for the diy kit. Takes about a full day to solder together, but was fun and pretty easy.
I already have an MSII v3.52 "factory" built box from DIY, a JimStim board for testing, and the V3 main board wire harness. I picked this stuff up from Jake over the summer from his personal stash, since he ddcided not to build a test mule with it.
I am retrofitting this thread to be my full on conversion thread, documenting my change from dual 40 Webers to MSII fuel injection.
Here is what I have so far, and what I need:
I've got a nice fuel pump you can have if you decide you need it. It came with my car which the previous owner had converted to ITB fuel injection. However, when I bought the car it had no engine, so I built a six with Webers. I'm using a Holley low pressure pump.
The extra pump is a Bosch 0 580 254 979 which is rated at 165 liters/hour and maintains pressure at 5 bars (72 psi). It came stock on 78-79 930's and 79-82 924 Turbos. The pump was probably used for about 500 to 1000 miles of driving.
Anyhow, the pump looks like this:
This is a stock image, though. Mine has -AN fittings on the intake and exhaust ports, plus a mounting bracket.
They cost quite a bit new but I really don't need it and I have noticed you contribute quite a bit to this site's content. So if you want it just pay for postage (probably $10.) and it is yours.
Let me know.
Rob, consider me letting you know I want it. PM me details.
you've got mail....
I know a guy that pulls the stuff needed to make the maga squirt dyi and sells them on ebay. He pulls everything off the fords. The ztec engine has the right timing wheel and pickup, coil packs, tps, and a funky sensor that tells the amount of eythanl in the gas.
The fuel pump out of the volvo turbos have a great fuel pump and filter setup.
As far as a real quiet intake, The filter box out of a dodge caravan (90s) works great. The same noise problem in the subaru/vanagon setup. I turned the bottom housing around and ran a hose out the intake side to get the sucking sound farther out. You could almost run it all the way back to the lights?
Just finished pulling the engine. We are officially under way. Carbs are up in storage as is the Tangerine cable sync. For sale by the way. Need money for EFI bits.
Joe, your 1.8 out yet? I need to scavenge!
I just finished a similar conversion for my '67 Squareback. I transplanted a '73 914 2.0L and converted it to MS2 V3 w/ EDIS using the stock 2.0L runners and a 1.8L plenum (clocked about 3/4" on the fwd mounting only so the runners would line-up) and a slightly modified 2.0L TB. I get my CLT temp from the LH valve cover. I switched to a Walbro pump. The injectors are yellow-top Type-3 D-jet injectors which flow almost as much as the stock green-top 2.0L type. I have had no fuel starvation with these
I've been meaning to pull it all apart to get it all powder coated, but I just enjoy driving it too much. . . It drives like a scalded cat!! When I get the car painted I'm going to have the pin-stripper badge it "SB Type-P SS" ("Squareback, Type-Porsche Super Sleeper").
Mine has EDIS, but if you want the MSQ-file, shoot me your e-mail address and I'll send it to you. It'll get you in the ball-park for your motor and have a good starting point anyway.
I'm just reading along and hopefully learning if only I can remember. I'm curious how a fuel pump can overwelm a pressure regulator if the return line is big enough. My son runs a BIG pump on his sti and still uses the stock lines. Oh yeah I forgot his pump is modulated.
Zach, There are some calculations to determining throttle body size.
cfm = (Max RPM x Volumetric Efficiency x Cubic inches) / 3456
max area of opening = (cfm x 2.4) / 300 feet per second
Use 85% for an average guess on volumetric efficiency. If you have information on what the actual volumetric efficiency is use it, but I'm not sure how to get it.
I would say that you need to calculate the area of the ID of all of the runners and make sure that they are at least as much as the throttle bottle. I would think that even a bit larger would be better. You want to flow as much air through the runners as the throttle body.
Don't oversize the throttle body by too much because at fully throttle it's fine, but at idle you bump the throttle just a little bit and a large amount of air rushes in. I would think that would cause some grief.
I haven't done this for myself yet because I have to get my car built from scratch, but when I do, these calculations will come in handy. (I think!)
I don't know if this will help you any but through my research I found a few tidbits here and there, and wanted to pass them along.
Okay, I've not updated this thread since November.
Could be I am maybe a bit embarrassed by my lack of getting-shit-doneness?
So there has been a bit of a change of plans.
I am going to be running McMark's Microsquirt setup.
I fought with myself for nearly 6 months before admitting that having a setup that took the engineering out of this would be a much better way to go right now. Mark's system gets me crankfire ignition, coil on plug, a weather sealed MS box that can live in the engine bay, a pre-built wire harness, and a huge bit of cussing and experimenting taken out of the picture.
The MSIIv3 box I have will go on the Jeep. Or I'll sell it. Dunno yet.
I just put my Mallory Unilite system up for sale in the classified section. NO BACKSLIDING!
Years ago I ran one of Chris's stainless fuel lines through the tunnel. For years I considered selling the return line. Almost gave it away twice. Glad I didn't. I was not looking forward to running it in, but tonight I did just that. While I had the tank out, I also pulled all the carb related fuel stuff out.
One kinda scary thing... The fuel filter I put in ~2008 was clearly not intended for ethanol. It looked like this when I pulled it out.
The inlet and outlet were both deformed and degraded from the fuel. If you are using this type of filter - CHECK IT!
Also, there was a LOT more rust in the tank then there was in 2008 when the tank went back in the car. Not nearly enough to be worried about, but enough that I was really surprised when I put a flashlight in and looked around. Stupid alcohol.
025 133 067a
if you can find one
A quick update.
Yesterday I picked up a used, but in excellent shape, Triad muffler from one of our local members.
I have made 2/3rds of the payment to McMark for his excellent Microsquirt driven EFI and electronic spark. Will be paid off by the end of the month.
I stopped by my machinist today and he promised my heads would be done next week. Of course, its easy to say "next week."
I gave my engine tin to Joe to take to his powder coater in Baltimore. They did a great job on his stuff.
This is really starting to move together. I'm getting excited.
You'll like it! Mark really has something in that package. I would consider it over carbs on a relatively stock car anyday.
Just in time to store it for winter!
If it runs in the winter that means it is likely to run in April. And that is what I really care about.
So, do you still want the loaner motor? If not, I have a guy who wants to use it to build a megasquirt system. Still yours to use if you want it though.
If I have the loaner motor, I won't need it.
If I dont have it, my car won't be driving at Hershey.
Kinda like taking an umbrella on a cloudy day to ensure it does not rain.
At this point, if there is someone that needs the motor, I can't justify having it on hand for insurance. Especially if you are going to ship it cause you are not coming this weekend.
Last week I picked up a triad muffler from Bill in Mt Airy.
Over the weekend I blasted it clear of old paint and what little rust it had. I also got a free, used O2 bung from a fellow teener this weekend at ECC.
Today I cut in the opening for the O2 sensor. I cleaned up the used bung and welded it into pace. I could not find a 18mm fine bolt, so I tried to be very careful not to warp the bung while welding it into place.
Then I put the first coating of grill paint on it.
I actually made real progress today!!!
The second and third coats of paint will come ay a later date. The first was put on quickly today to keep it from rusting up since I had blasted the metal bare yesterday.
Geez, you're working fast Zach....good to see that bung is working out--it's pretty meaty & shouldn't have warped much if any. Which wideband are you going to be using?
Yeah man, it worked great.
It took very little time to clean it up and get it all round again. Made for easy welding.
I got to work today way early (easy as I was working from home today) and was done by one. Had to be ready to help my wife out this afternoon. I figured I would get as much done on it until she got home. As it was, I had three solid hours to work, and I was just finishing the first coat of paint when she drove up.
You didn't warp it.
My welds are not pretty. But they hold just fine.
I don't do it enough to get pretty.
Triad muffler now has 4 coats of paint. After I out the kids to bed I laid some more down as it is a warm fall evening.
It looks brand new.
This part is done.
Just updated my project plan.
I have reached the tipping point!
I am 50.25% complete with my EFI conversion.
Yes. I am a nerd. So what? The project plan keeps me from diverging too much.
Kick ass! Looking forward to seeing your car on the road again Zach.
Way to go Zach!! Having fun AND making progress. That's a combo for great results!!
Just got a call from Joe that my tin was done at the powder coater.
Finished paying Mark this AM for his EFI kit.
Good thing I get paid Friday!
Now all I need is the call saying my heads are done.
Right now I think that call could wait two weeks before that lump of cash falls out of my hands.
I cant wait to pick up your tin
I advise you to stop by Warrior each and every day, till the heads are done.
I do believe we deserve some pictures sir.....
I got my Tins from joe last night. Yesterday I also got a call that my heads were done. I won't be able to get them until next Friday. But they are done!
Soon the engine will be back to a long block!!!
Got my heads today. Woot!
I need to CC them in case the CC value changed.
What's left? A lot. But getting closer.
Need to buy some more stuff.
Exhaust seals. CV gaskets. CV washers etc.
CC the heads and put them on the block.
Check pushrod geo to see if I need to cut new ones.
Pressure test my SSI exchangers to see if it is safe to hook heat back up.
Get the EFI stuff from Mark and install what needs to be installed before the doghouse and tins go back together.
Put the power train back together.
Get it in the car.
I'll ship off your crank sensor ASAP.
show us some HEAD !!!!
Is it finished ???
Everyone but Erin at home right now is sick. I still need to get the stuff to CC the heads.
Did some work on the lathe, but that's about all I had the energy to do.
I should have the stuff I need to CC the heads Monday.
Got assorted small parts needed when you put an engine back in sourced.
Only stuff left to buy is ethanol proof fuel line, a few more FI hose clamps, pressure regulator, and a new VDO oil pressure sender. And new cut-to-length pushrods if my geometry changed. Which I will find out when I put the old ones back into place and check my geometry.
What is the pressure regulator that people like? Mark, am I going to be pushing somewhere between 28 and 30 psi fuel? Or More? Or less?
I don't think I have a stock regulator.
Off to the For Sale section!
Got you covered. I have plenty.
CCed my heads today. Came out to between 60 and 61cc per head.
This will lower my compression ratio from 9.2:1 to 8.6:1. A little higher then stock but not much. Wonder if I will be able to get away with 87 gas now instead of the 93 I had been using. Before headwork they were at 56cc. I could have them fly cut a hair, but I think the slightly lower compression might be good for me.
My deck is at .040 and I don't want to go tighter then that.
With a deck at 40, you should be fine with 87.
back heads both say 56, which was incorrect... There was a 4CC bubble. I remeasured and they came out at 60 and no bubble.
The plate I cut out of a sheet of 1/4 inch acetate.
Got a small box from Mark today!!!
Its not everything, but it will get me back working this Friday after I get the kids to bed. I'm now one sensor away from being able to get the engine back in tins!
Let me just say that this trigger wheel is a really WELL made part. I expected goodness, and my expectations were exceeded. Looking forward on getting it bolted on to the crank!
I got more stuff today!!!
Original Customs 100% eFI kit. Let McMark take the engineering out of your eFI project.
New fuel injectors? Coil on Plug? Hell yeah!
Prebuilt wire harness? Yup.
O2 sensor included? You better believe it.
Weathertight Microsquirt controller? Included. Can you say mounted in the engine compartment with no worries? Yes you can.
There are a couple things that I am missing yet, but I can start taking chuncks out of this job for real now.
Eh, you'll still fuck it up
I have been busy
Looking like the parts are rollin in Zach. Following this thread closely. If the D-jet causes me a lot of headaches after the car is on the road, I may look into megasquirt.
Glad to see that you got your stuff from Mark. He's still working on my harness and it looks like we'll need an AAR to help with cold starts.
He tried one (AAR) on my engine and it idled too high. Might need some kind of restrictor.
Nice looking setup!
I can't remember, are you going ITB or common plenum?
Common plenum off a 1.8. The impetus for this was to cut back on the howl ITBs and webers caused.
Jake said that the 1.8 plenum can support up to a 2.4 liter plant, so my little 2.0 should be just fine.
Dude.... All this work and you could have like a way newer motor.....
This car will always have a T4.
When the 2056 gets tired i'll build it to a 2270.
And the FI will work on that too.
My engine is back to being a long block for the first time in a year!!!!
Now I just have 5 billion wires and such that I need to figure out. Was getting cold (its spring, warm the F up weather!) and overwhelmed. But I did get a lot done tonight.
Yesterday I double checked my pushrod geometry.
Since I had headwork done, I thought it would be prudent. And its a good thing I did.
All of my pushrods were still within +/- 5% of the advertised lift of my cam - except the #3 Exhaust, which was short and has to be recut. I think I have an extra cut-to size push rod somewhere. I'm glad I checked!
Stange thing was that all of them looked good at 1/2 lift, even the one that was a bit short.
Since I have not added pic in a while...
The knob is on the wrong side. Not going to change it unless the tin does not fit. It not like I will have to adjust a dizzy any longer...
The distributor block off will stay in without the clamp. But, it doesn't really matter.
I would shorten your oil pump studs. If you have to do any work on it in the car, you'll thank me. BTDT.
I knew I had some cut to length pushrods laying around. it only took my 5 minutes to find them while waiting for oil on my mower to drain. Even found the adjustable one.
Now I just need to get fuel hose and spark plugs! And the guts to start hooking up the new electronics.
All pushrods are now in-spec. :-)
And I have new goodies for the car "while I'm in there."
Including the firewall back shifter upgrade for my Rennshift!
And new brakes from Erc.
And wheel studs to replace the lug bolts.
Cause... you know if I keep buying things for the car I can ensure it never actually gets completed. Like the Winchester Mansion.
My 5 year old replaced all 16 lug bolts with wheel studs today. So easy, a pre-K kid can do it. All I did was follow behind and torque them in.
Then he drove the car back into the bay while I pushed!
Today was a very good day. Did not get anything done on the engine, but my son was so happy to b able to help with the car.
He knows he'll be driving by the time it's running.
Mike, your Tranny Wagon has been down for your FI changes longer then my 914. How's that glass house? And what are you doing with that stone?
Maybe this weekend, buttercup
I put insurance back on Mr. Yellow Sunflower today. My 7 year old and 4 year old are pumped to be taking the 914 out for a drive.
I hope they don't have it out too long.
You could always do what I did.
Buy a running 911 and you wont work on the 914 for at least 3 more years.
I do have one fender flare welded on...and three laying on the roof.
Holy crap! Progress got made!
I brought the engine to Rods shop for the ECC / Work party. Got a lot done on the EFI upgrade. I love working with other people. Special thanks go to Steven for keeping me on point for the past few weeks. He was a great help in figuring out how all the parts went together at Scott's shop in VA (where we could not actually get work done as I had forgotten the damned intake spacers at home...)
Check out the bitch'n orange injector holders. Jim gave them to me when I realized how grungy mine were. Just happened that he had Rod powder coat like 20 of them for him. I love it!
The trick here was the coupler nuts. We spent a lot more time then we should have trying to figure out how the COP bracket attached until I remembered the coupler nuts.
Bracket and coil near plug (CNP) detail. Everyone that saw this at ECC thought it was a really elegant design.
Another view of the CNP bracket and install.
I was able to use Rod's ultrasonic cleaner to de-grunge my throttle body, and got that installed.
The wires are piled on the engine here. I had McMark label them, install will be a snap.
My plan now is to finish adding the FI stuff, and take the whole mess to Translog for dyno tuning on his engine dyno. That will save me a LOT of time tuning, and I will get a dyno sheet when its done (ie - I'll actually KNOW how much power this engine is making). I'm hoping that it makes ~130.
Another benifit of letting Translog tune it is that they will be better at fixing the oil leaks... I have jet to get pushrod seals to to actually seal the first time. If there are other drips that show up tony will be able to get them (or at least ID them).
I REALLY have to get my car on the rod. Bob (that ass!) drove his car to Rods. I have seriously got to step up my game.
Whooo, nice progress!
That is a good looking engine.
Just in time for snow
How do you make your tack work with this set up?? i was thinking of distibutor-less ignition
Two options, at least. I used a Compu-Fire tach adapter. MSD makes one, and there are others.
McMark is working on an idea that he got from the forum that replaces the guts of the tach with current technology. It's going to be cleaner and better than the adapter.
The coil in a normal 12v relay should work as an output adapter too. It's what I used in my car. Better result than the msd adapter too
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=216719. It's not my development. I'm just following Timothy's instructions. Seems like the perfect solution to me. Works with most upgraded ignitions (MicroSquirt/MegaSquirt/MSD/etc) and works better than stock.
Is your car running yet?
I have a 914?!
Oh yeah, that thing.
Matt and Bob have both offered to come over and help me finish it out. But I've been swamped with family lathe work and deer season.
I'm going to host a frozen digit build party in January and hopefully that will end with the car turning over.
Spent a little bit of quality time with the engine last night.
Got the alternator on, and belt tensioned.
Got all the rest of the tin on an aligned.
Got the rest of the engine mounted sensors/senders installed.
Got the wires for the Microsquirt setup mostly installed. I mat change them around, and need to test continuity to make sure I have good grounds at the COPS and Injectors.
Got the COPS all set up on the side that did not have them.
Sourced some hardware that I has misplaced.
Sourced grommets for all the holes in the tin.
Stuff left to do:
Install Tangerine firewall back shifter kit.
Redo fuel lines in front any back.
install transmission to engine.
Put the engine back in the car.
Put the exhaust on.
Start the motor!
Drive it to Translog for tuning.
Actively fishing for someone to come over and work with me some weekend day in January/Feb to get it all finished up.
Heat I can provide.
70K BTU heater gets it about pleasant to work so long as the temps outside are about 15 or so.
More work last night.
Was 24 degrees in my garage at 9:30PM when I started setting up. So I got the kerosene heater started and smoked a cigar while it warmed up to something tolerable.
Rolled out the components that I was going to be working on.
The engine only needed a few things that I had run short of last time. A bolt here, nut there, that kinda thing. I never ordered the IAT I needed and intended to install on it next time, so that will have to wait.
My main task for the evening was the transmission. Wanted to get that done and join the engine and trans back together.
Transmission task was installing the rear shifter kit I got from Chris Foley last year at Hershey. I read the directions a few times while smoking the cigar, laid out my parts and set to work.
Now I'm committed. Also, Dr Evil is not speaking to me.
This went really smoothly. Chris, the template you included made this SUPER simple.
A little grease and a cone screw later, and the shifter bar was in place.
I so can't wait to drive this thing and see how much better the shifting is.
Now I hit a snag. I went to put the trans back together with the engine, and noticed that the long bolt was on the wrong side. The shorter bolt was trapped by the throttle. So I had to pull the throttle, clean and reseal to get the long bolt where it needed to be.
Back together again! I got the nuts on, starter on and exhaust hanger turned right side up. Was just finishing buttoning it back up when the heater ran out of kerosene and died. PERFECT timing.
Went inside, got cleaned up, and was in bed by 1:30 am.
I have to put the improved shifter bushing on at the firewall, and buy/install an IAT somewhere on the plenum. After that, I think the engine is ready to go back into the car!
Things left to do:
*Fuel tank, hoses, pump, fuel filter
*install exhaust, O2 sensor
*install fuel rails, injectors, fuel hose in engine compartment
*clean up wiring
*double check everything
*add gas (pressurize system, look for leaks)
*START IT UP!
soon. IAT ... remind me what that is ...
Intake air temp sensor.
Can probably get a cheap GM unit at FLAPS. Just need to do it and mount it.
You sir are a steelie-eyed missle-man for being out in a garage that cold (with or without a heater). . .
I don't like working in the garage when it gets below 50°... Burr!
I think it's almost 80° here today.
If we did not go out in the cold, garage time is limited to about 6 months....
Zach - thanks for posting those shift rod install photos, that Tangerine mod is on my
list of things to buy. I already have his firewall shift rod bearing mod and it's really nice. Now you've peaked my interest again with the MS setup, I'm gonna have to
read through some threads again to see if I want to try it on my 2056 build or stick
with D Jet. Jon
Put this in the correct thread this time....
While I am using L-Jet as the base of my intake, there are bits I don't need. One piece in particular is the flapper box that attaches to the intake. I don't need it for Mircosquirt and it makes for an air restriction. So I'm going to make a connector in place of the flapper.
In this connector I'll weld in the bung for the IAT. This is an added bonus, as I did not want to ruin the powder coat on the plenum when I weld in the bung.
You can see the obstruction for airflow. I'm going to make just a simple pipe instead.
At the very least I'll be taking an air restriction out of the intake path, and saving a bit of weight.
I got the stuff to make the intake pipe this morning, and it will hopefully be made (minus the bung which I could not get local) by the end of the day.
Nate, CLT should be your CHT. CLT is a measure of warmup and intake air isn't an indicator of that.
Bung and IAT already on order. I'll have the bung before I could get to someone that might have the gland nut.
AH! The other pipe is just a hose connection (AAR?). Got it!
I like the stock CHT for a CLT, but your way should work too.
Intake cut out and welded up. Turns out the slip fit section of a 2.25 inch exhaust pipe from NAPA is a PERFECT fit for the intake boot for Ljet.
Flange I made with the pipe fitted. I cut the pipe to length on my wood lathe, turning as slow at it would go and using a diamond shaped carbide cutter.
The hole in the flange I made with a cutoff wheel and lots of grinding to fit.
Just prior to welding it up.
It's all welded, except the bung. When I get the bung I'll zap that in and paint it black. This part will be done. :-)
No welding pics
Does Radar O'Reilly know you have his hat?
Hey, that muffler mount is upside down!
Steel bung came today to weld into the intake I made last week.
But.... It's 14 degrees now while the sun is out. No idea the forcast for tonight after I get the kids in bed. Not sure I have the stones to work when it's that cold out, even with the heater going.
Looks good Zach...when is the engine install party?
Friday night is usually work night. Tonights plan was to install the new fangled firewall shift bushing fromthe shift kit. After thats installed I can put the engine back in the car. 33 degrees is even warmer then its been most of the past 2 months. But I was exhausted and went to bed early.
So why am I up at 3AM if I did not stay up to work on my car?
Both my kids got up at the same time and puked in their beds. And then after we got them cleaned up and fresh sheets, they both puked again. Now they are asleep and I am up, exhausted yet wired. Tomorrow is going to be fun.
More progress made.
I got the new fancy shifter bushing installed. Another very quality part for Racer Chris.
Don't look at the rust. If I see the rust I'll never get the engine in and never get my car on the road. There is no rust there.
And since I had the shifter all apart, I figured I'd change up my look. For the past few years I've been sporting this:
It was the prototype 917 knob - the first one I made.
I decided to change to this:
I figured a mushroom cloud better personified my car. I was going to put it on my Jeep, but my Jeep will get something else in time.
Anyway, I THINK that I am ready to put the engine back in. Which means that I need some folks to come over and help me. Some of the tasks need a second set of hands. I'll set something up after the clinic next weekend.
So you have time for some rust converter paint on that lower firewall......
If my garage heats up to a point where I could put paint on before I get the engine in, that is a consideration. What kind of rust converting paint should be used?
Goddamn ninjas are everywhere.
Now just answer the question.
What is your question? What are you trying to convert priest to? Ninjas?
I have dabbled with quite a few rust-proofing options over the past few years. While its to early to really know which, if any, actually work as claimed...I would hit that area on the firewall with a wire wheel, apply two coats of "Rust Bullet" and a top coat and call it a day.
You don't want to be pulling that engine back out to address a rusty firewall next year.
This weekend... The engine may cough to life!!!
Matt, Mark and Bob have agreed to come over and spend the day with me saturday. Get the engine in the car, fuel hoses set, and hopefully start the bitch up!
I'm double checking things this week making sure I'm not going to be held up due to lacking a $.05 washer or something equally stupid.
Punchout list is slowly getting smaller. I'm getting excited!
If anyone else wants to come and help, just let me know!
Help? I thought it was beer and chili ?
Never fear, food and beer will be provided.
Also, potentially other goodies.
Looking forward to hearing that engine fire up Zach!
Matt...are you driving the 914 up? I'm undecided...concerned that all this snow melting may cause a wet/salty mess on the roads.
Catch everyone on Saturday.
I'm looking forward to seeing folks too!
Two cases of beer are chilling in the garage.
New red top is in the back of the truck.
Engine and various bits are ready to go.
Tomorrow is the day. :-)
Are you putting the motor in the car?
That's the plan.
That and hang out with other 914 guys.
Good luck. Just as long as no one tries to put the SCROT winner back together.
Mark, Bob and Matt showed up. Got a lot done, but the engine has not fired yet.
Shifter bar through the big firewall bushing. That was a tedious job even for two people.
Engine is in. Oil lines hooked back up to the cooler. Axles back in but not torqued properly or safety wired. Clutch cable hooked in and adjusted. Engine side fuel lines run.
At this point we broke for lunch. Chili and burritos. Yum.
Then Mark headed out.
Shortly after that a biker slid on gravel into the back of a pickup. Rider went superman over the truck. I called 911 while Bob went over to render assistance. This was essentially the end of the work session. No less then 2 ambulances, 2 cop cars, fire chief and the fire crash truck and a wrecker showed up. Rider was wearing a helmet which is unusual around here. Smart but unusual. Probably saved him.
When that was over Bob needed to head out. Matt and I wanted to get the engine side shifter bar in place and the exchangers / exhaust on. But, the shifter bar is very tight against the bar under the cockpit. There is paint on the inside of the engine bar at the join that I need to remove. Then it should fit.
At this point I was starting to get frustrated and had a headache from laying under the car. It was about 5 and Matt wanted to get home before it was dark. He was driving his 914. So that is where we called it.
Still some work to do, but a lot got done today and I appreciate the help and company!
So, fuel pump question. Bob and Mark puzzled over this for an hour with my Haynes and a tablet online.
So the line from the tank is clear (has a hose and filter on it). Do we run the return line back to the pump? Or should that go direct to the gas tank? This pump is in the front of the car, not in the engine bay.
S connects to the filter
D connects to the tunnel
R connects to the wye
S - Suction/Supply from the tank.
D - Druck(Pressure) goes to the engine.
R - Return: this is a bleed off in case the D port is over pressurized. Connect this with the return line from the engine and the return port in the tank. You need a Tee or 'Y' connection to hook the three lines together.
We knew we needed a T or a Y but could not figure out where it went.
Ok, I was worried you might actually get it running...whew
Great to see everyone & get caught up. Some photos:
Goal for tonight: Fuel pump in, and rear shift linkage fitted.
9:03 PM. Kids are in bed. Time to get working.
Funny timing, I was just about to PM you and check on status. Do you need a plastic cover for the rear shift console? I found one in my stash. Comes with the rubber accordian boot.
Yes. Yes I need those. Thank you!
Got the fuel pump plumed in and the shift rod in place. Rod is loose for adjustment at the console.
Next task will be to get the tank in place w/o kinking the hoses. Tank is attached to the hoses but I did not have the energy to deal with it tonight.
Ahh. Not buried in work. Not traveling. Actually have the chance to work on my car tonight.
Well, until dinner when my eldest son suddenly started pulling his ear and said he could not hear well. So instead I'm waiting to see the after hours doctor. Maybe tomorrow?
Grumble. I'm just not supposed to get this heap to Hershey, it seems.
Just shove our phone in his ear and take a pic. Send that to me and I will take a look
Raging ear infection in the ear and ear canal. Yea!
Will see if I can get some work in tomorrow. I'm going to bed.
Cigar break time.
CVs are torqued. Tangerine shifter bar is adjusted from under the car. That was a task. Lots of trial and error of tightly machined parts. But it is in and done!
Break for a bit to get out from under the car and then it's time to put on the exhaust.
Progress is slow, but progressing none the less.
Bah. No more work tonight. Temps have tumbled and I can't find the hardware needed for the heat exchangers. I'll pick new stuff up tomorrow and try to get the exhaust on tomorrow. But, I got some good work done tonight, and hope to get more done tomorrow. :-)
I did get the gas tank in, and time will tell if the lines under it are kinked. I'll figure that out when I can get the back end of the car on the ground and the front end up.
hmmm... I installed my gas tank then cut the fuel hoses to fit as a straight piece from the SS fuel line to the tank nipple. That way no possibility of kinking in the bend. The IS possibility of kinking if the cut piece is too long and would tend to try to bend and then kink in the bend. But if cut to just the right length, it's a straight piece. It is kinda a b!tch to tighten the hose clamps through the access hole but a right angle ratcheting tool was in the tool box and did it's job...
I like to have a service loop under the tank in case I have to pull it again. Which in theory I will do before too long when I start to reinstall the heat system to the cabin. Between the access hole and the front pump I hope to be able to smooth out any kinks.
I decided to order bolts from Bolt Depot last night instead of heading to True Value today. Will have to wait a few days to install the exhaust, but it gets me nuts and bolts with a 12mm head instead of the usual 13mm. That last mm is a big deal when installing heat exchangers. And I don't NEED exhaust to start it up the first time...
Steven is coming over next Saturday. I really want to start it with him there to help me get it running.
Had a really productive afternoon. Almost felt like I was back at the University again.
I got cut loose from work at 2:15 today by surprise when a training class ended early, and the one meeting I promised my boss I'd call into got rescheduled! Got home with 2 hours before the kids/wife would get home.
I made use of my time by getting the exhaust on my 914.
First I checked the torque on the CVs and then safety wired them.
Then the SS exchangers and TRIAD went up. Lots of fiddling to get it even, and no way to check for leaks right now but I think I have it pretty good. And the Triad looks awesome.
And got the o2 sniffer in (was kinda a bitch to get a wrench on it...)
I was getting the starter wired back up when wife and children came up the driveway and I had to stop. All I need to do before dropping the car back to the pavement (so I can raise the front end...) is tighten the leads on the starter, and check nuts and bolts. Maybe another 30 minutes of work (including lowering the car back down.)
So.... What does that mean I need to do? Straight line like Jim said, or just try to work the kinks free? What is the preferred way to work with this hose?
I don't know but your custom rear 914 badge is awesome.
Not helpful at all I know.
I followed advice from Mr. Foley and left my lines long so I had room to work under there with the tank up.
While I ended up with a kink in one of the lines, it was pretty easy to work it out with the extra length of hose under the tank.
I would leave it the way you have it.
I haven't found time to work on it yet, but one of my thoughts was to find a coil spring to slide over the hose to see if that will help keep a kink from forming.
So I stopped at best buy and bought the cheapest laptop I could buy.
My old machine is just too damn old and the battery only lasts a few moments. So time to see what a new $250 laptop can do. If I can use it for tuning and web browsing it will be worth it. Tuning may start as early as tomorrow, but likely next week.
Still a very slim chance the heap will make Hershey.
What do you get for 250 this month?
Not a hell of a lot, and windows 8. Which I am learning I do not like very much.
But the machine works with Tuner Studio and I can search the web on it. So it does everything I bought it to do.
The sticker on it says a 500GB drive, 4GB ram, 15 inch monitor, Celeron processor.
Tank - Pump - Pass Side Fuel Rail - Driver Side Fuel Rail - Regulator - Tank
In your picture, the fuel regulator outlet is on the left.
So fuel flows in from the side of the regulator and out through the bottom?
Or other way around?
Ignore the right side.
Car is back on all 4 tires at least for the moment.
Injectors are in. The engine has oil I. It and nothing is (yet) leaking. Shifter is installed but not adjusted from the cockpit. Trying to find the rennshift install instructions.
Tonight I'll get the engine side fuel lines plumbed in, and hopefully finish adjusting the shifter.
If I get that done, I'll get the air cleaner housing in and start chasing wires and cleaning things up.
Last thing this evening will be raising the front end so I can check and unkink the fuel lines under the tank. Getting really close to first start!
Nice, then you can come help me this weekend....I want mine running too...
Done for the evening.
Got the engine side fuel lines plumbed in.
Shifter in and adjusted.
1.8 Air Box in. That was kind of a bitch.
Got the car moved back and the front end up in the air. Tomorrow's task will be checking the fuel lines under the tank for kinks.
Cleaned up the shop a little and have stuff set up for tomorrow night.
planning on purchasing a Rennshift don't have access to an engine hoist...will I be able to install it without one
A good day. I got to do my first muzzle loading competition AND work on my car!
I took the cover off the steering rack and looked into the inspection hole. Also felt around. No kinks that I could find. Left the cover off in case I was wrong, but put the car back on the ground. Felt around the portal where the fuel pump is (pump is in the front trunk for 75+cars) and no kinks there either. Screwed that shut.
With the car back on the ground, closed the hood, and smiled. This week has been like it used to be when I worked for the university. Motivation and TIME that I can work on the car. Climbed behind the wheel and played with the shifter a little. It may need a little more adjustment towards R and 1st, but all the others go in REALLY smooth. I was tempted to put the battery in, and turn the key just to see the dash light up after so many years idle. But then I heard my wife scolding the toddler from the house, and I knew my car time was over.
Still, a damn good day. I love the spring. I'm glad spring finally decided to show up! :-)
congrats...great info / education
Today I got a little done but not much.
Got the vacuum line hooked up in the engine bay.
Got the MAP sensor in place and the vacuum line it needed run.
I THINK I have all the vacuum hose barbs closed.
Tomorrow I took off for my last ditch attempt to get the car to Hershey.
There are a few electrical connections that still need to be figured out in the engine bay.
Also need to get the expansion tank back on and get gas in the tank.
Then its vroom vroom.... (I hope).
I'm having grounding issues. Cyl 1&2 injectors will not ground through the injector studs. And of course I have to pull a bunch of crap to get to them to investigate.
Everything else is grounding properly. I'm not sure what insulating those studs.
Sorry to hear the teener won't make it Zach. On the bright side, I see a lot of alcohol in your near future.
Well yes. Indeed.
Today I buttoned back up the expansion tank on the gas tank.
I also called and made an appointment to bring the car to Translog and let Tony finish it up. I hated doing it, but I want to actually drive the damn thing. I'll work on it this weekend and bring it to him for the final check, start and tuning.
Not having the car at Hershey really pissed me off this year.
Ya, then you could have driven yourself home
Car is now at Translog for finishing. Dragged it there this afternoon and spoke to Tony for a bit. No idea when it will be up and running again, but its going to be sooner then if I was doing it on my own. I can only work weekends, and all my weekends are booked solid through mid June now. Tony got all my notes and I took some time to walk him through the engine bay, and trying to explain how it is all supposed to go together.
This is the really busy season for him, so I don't expect my car to be first. But I do hope o have it back by Matt's annual party in August. :-)
I hate that I had to admit defeat and hand the car off to get finished. But not having the car done by Hershey hurt, and I know this way it will be done right when it is done.
It's not defeat, it's bring in reinforcements - and soon you'll be driving.
"We have a turd in the punch bowl. Repeat, we have a turd in the punch bowl. Proceed with caution."
Looking good! It won't take long..you will be driving soon...
Mine is running!
Excellent! When you get it back, let's gather the locals for a drive.
I stopped by Translog today with my laptop.
The ECU stopped communicating with Tony's PC, so I showed up with mine to see if I could eliminate the ECU as the issue. No love. I think that the ECU is corrupted and needs to be reflashed.
But while I was there I noticed my 914 was one of many in the shop.
USB to serial adapters suck. I would invest in a $200 laptop that has a built in serial port.
And/or send me the ECU so I can test it in my car.
I use a Dell D630 which has a built in serial port. They're going for about $100 on Amazon.
The plastic body ECU is vIII.
You can always swing by and we can test it with my stuff....I have both, bluetooth and usb serial cables....I also have a stim...
Does the fuel pump turn on with the key?
How much does this sort of deluxe, COP, prewired EFI system cost?
I did not hear the fuel pump turn on. But I was not listening for it either. I was only there for a few minutes. Long enough to plug in my laptop to see if there was communication.
If I can get time, I'll go back and run more tests, but I'm not sure tony would want me working on my car at his garage.
Any updates on your car Zach?
You have this thing running and on the road?
I need to call Tony tomorrow and find out. He said he'd have it running by the end of march.
Nothing in particular aside from me not having time to mess with it for the better part of 2 years. I gave it to Tony thinking it would be a summer project for his team. That turned into a year project. It's not like I'd suddenly have time to start working on it, so I have not made a fuss. When I get it it should be a dyno tuned system.
I talked to Tony. Not running and he is stumped.
He can't get the ECU to connect to TunerStudio. Can't get to first base as it were. It's got power and ground but won't sync.
It did sync at one point. Lost connection in the middle of an operation and communication has not been able to be reestablished. I'm going over Friday to futz with it and could use whatever help I can get.
Zach, will you confirm they tried the tips I sent them. If they did, I'm gonna drop a spare ECU in the mail for you. PM me their address. The ECU has a bad tach_out, but everything else works.
Harness I think is different, but you are welcome to try my MSII to see if it works, we can swap the firmware easily....Marks solution is better, but anyway, mine is sitting here awaiting a car to put it in...oops, no vr circuit though...
Yeah, MSII is very different. Nice offer though.
Mark, when I talked with Tony today they said they had tried everything you had told them about.
Mail the ECU to me if you dont mind. If I cant get mine to connect this week, I'm going to pull it and send it to you to see if it works on an otherwise known good system.
Seriously thinking of towing my car back home. as long as I'm going to be working on it again, I'd rather walk out to my garage then take days off work to work at tony's shop. Nothing against Translog, but I just dont want them burning shop hours fighting a connection. I want them burning shop hours tuning.
My plan of action thus far is to do a loopback test on the ECU. This will let me know if the laptop and ECU even see each other.
Then reload the firmware onto the ECU.
I'm putting together a checklist of parts and tests to run, since I will have limited time.
Going to bring full set of tools, and multimeter, and my laptop.
Heading to Translog tomorrow. (thursday).
Packing up tools and I cant find my damn multimeter.
Guess I'll be stopping by the hardware store on the way there.
you realize you could have shipped the car to Mark
a year 3 years ago and be driving it right now don't you ?
Looks like the issue is a miswired factory serial cable!!!
I'm going out to find if I can buy a new minijack to DB9 cable.
On mine pin 2 is wired to pin 4. Only 2 pins used. Man I hope this is the issue!
Back at home again. Here is where I am at.
I hacked apart the DB9 end of the cable to "correct" the pin wiring. I have to say it in quotes as (after I hacked it up) I found other information that said it was correct the first time. But I get ahead of myself. I hacked up the cable, soldered the pins to the wires and tried to reinstall them into the DB9 head. This was not successful. The cable was never intended to be taken apart, and getting the pins back into the body resulted in mostly mangled pins. Then back to google to find information suggesting that the cable was right in the first place. *grumble*
At this point I packed up my stuff, grabbed the ECU out of my car and came home after doing a small favor for Tony by fixing a computer glitch he had on his office machine.
This was the pic that got me thinking my cable was wired wrong.
In this picture the wire that should have been on Pin 2 was on Pin 4.
After I hacked the cable apart I found this:
WTF right?! Well I found the problem. The pic up top is of a MALE serial cable, and the pic below is of the FEMALE cable. I was just using google image search, and the pictures were not labeled as male/female. I had to figure that out on my own. My cable had the female end. Which means it was likely correct in the first place and I just ruined a okay cable.
So here is my plan.
buy a female 35 pin ampseal plug, new serial cable, and the Microsquirt mini-jack connector. With this I can bench test the ECU, and hopefully bring it up. At which point we can put it back in the car and start tuning.
I tested connectivity at the harness and its good. There may be a bad connection at the fuse block - I got a fault there unless I wiggled it around.
I also got more information on the failure mode in the first place. Tony said that they had connected to the ECU for a minute or two. The dashboard came up in tunerstudio, and the ECU was auto-detected. He turned around, and when he turned back connection had been lost.
Its not outside the realm of possibility that a bad connection at the fuse panel cut power to the ECU while it was connected to the laptop, corrupting the ECU. At this point I really don't know. I'm going to build the bench test rig and go from there.
I do have a JimStim which I may be able to wire into the bench test harness. That may be more trouble then its worth though. We shall see.
Just left you a message Zach. Don't buy anything.
So right now this is my plan for the test board.
Please look and see if I have something glaring. Do I need to add a circuit?
I think I only need 3 circuits at this time.
3) Bootloader Ground
I have a 15 volt, 1.4 amp power AC to DC power converter on hand. This will allow me to plug the test box into a wall and not have to fiddle with batteries.
The numbers inside circles are the pins to the Ampseal jack.
Boot loader will be on a switch instead of plugging and unplugging a wire, with an LED to show when it is grounding.
On a whim, as there is little else I can do right now, I just checked continuity on the ECU. I got no connection between pin 1 (power) and pins 19-23 (all ground pins).
Should I have continuity between Power and Ground pins while no power is applied to the ECU?
I don't know for sure, can't test till Saturday. But I'm doubtful. There shouldn't be a clean path from power to ground because that would be a dead short. It's also unlikely there are any resistor type connections from power to ground. Most of the stuff is IC and does things with the power only when it's on.
Some power converters do not produce a clean enough voltage signal that sensitive electronics require.
A dedicated power supply may be better for the job if you can get your hands on one.
I don't have a spare car battery. My 914 and its battery are at Tony's shop.
Your power supply should be ok.
What exactly happened that the MS stopped working? I read through your thread but couldn't tell when the ECU stopped working.
I'll offer to take a look at it and see what's wrong. We do electronic solution development at work and have a lot of experience with small systems like MS.
Here's one we just finished. It's a camera on a needle for probing knees and shoulders. Pretty cool. We did the camera board (me) and the base processor and software. It runs Android.
Schematics are available here...
it could be just the rs232 chip that is no good....
Careful of changes by version. That schematic is v2.2, the ECU is v3.
yea, i thought about that.....ver 3.0 is also available...
Let's try this one.
Never mind......can't cut and paste
Herb, i may come to pick your brain when I get the tester built. Youve done this before and that may come inhandy trying to get the ECU back on line.
No problem...Jim stim and unit on my bench. I think I have everything to fab a cable if needed...
Well, I built the breadboard for the power circuit, and found an issue.
My 15 volt power supply (which would have been perfect for this) is actually a 20 volt power supply. Glad I checked it with a multimeter before connecting the MS unit.
Microsquirt can take a 9V to 17v supply. Looks like its time to go get a lawn tractor battery. At least I'll have a hot spare when the battery on my tractor dies.
Tester for power built.
tested with the meter: 12.68 volts. In business.
Attach the leads and put 12 volts on the Microsquirt controller. No problem.
Turn that off, and go to hook up laptop.
My laptop has sucessfully communicated with Microsquirt!!!!!!!!
Now I just need to figure out why it won't on my car... My laptop detected the microsquirt ecu within second of plugging it in, so I know the ECU is good. I also know my laptop is good.
Harness? Ground loop?
So here is my theory.
This test circuit only has power and ground and communications. Nothing else is hooked up.
I recall in the startup file I was reading again last night it said to unhook all the sensor leads and make sure they are not grounding anywhere. I bet this is the issue. The leads are unplugged but were just laying in the engine bay. I bet they are grounding and creating some sort of connection problem.
The other possibility is a fault in the harness. Maybe a bad crimp somewhere. Though I tested continuity on the harness and I got a solid tone each time, so this is not a strong theory.
Wont know till I can get back to the 914, which may have to wait till after Hershey - depending on Tony's schedule.
Brain goes back in the catr on Thursday for further testing. I had taken thursday off for Hershey anyhow, so this will be good timing.
Still, excited that I was able to get my laptop to talk to it, eleminating the ECU and my laptop as the issue.
No dice. Once in the car the ECU failed to connect again. I pulled everything that could be causing a ground loop out, still no love.
Finally pulled the wire harness to bench test at home. I may do this tonight at the Knights Inn, since the whole mess is in my car already.
Stuff I tested: there is power for sure. 12 volts.
Grounds are clean. Grounds go from the engine block to 1 place on the engine harness - so we should be getting a clean ground to the ECU.
The harness is the only thing I can think of at this point that would be causing a problem. Hopefully I will be able to figure that out tonight or tomorrow.
Certainly sounds like the harness. Most likely culprit is the pins in the connector at the ECU. Those connectors are a major PITA to assemble. I'd suspect the serial connection wires themselves first.
Will find out tonight. If I can get a connection with it my plan is to take it to Tonys tomorrow and put it back in the car. Go connector by connector until it fails to try and isolate the problem.
how many pins is the connector?
Have you considered buying a more rugged cable with the correct number of wires, and redo the connectors at each end to match the new wire?
Something that may be easier to assemble and more reliable??
I am watching with loads of curiosity because I am about to go down this road....
Rich it's an amp-seal connector. Stop by my room at the Inn tonight it tomorrow night, I'll have it there. It's pretty rugged, and weatherproof.
Pretty sure this is your problem. Need a new hampster.
bring a gas mask...
Well, not the harness.
I did find a fault in the fuse block, but that is fixed easy enough.
I connected the harness to my laptop via my little tester setup and had a connection instantly.
I am at a total loss as to what I need to do next.
Its got to be something in my car, which makes ZERO sense to me. I'm totally stumped.
I now have full confidence in the harness.
When I did my test at Hershey I only used one ground point. It occured to me when I got sober the next day that there are 8 ground points. I married all the ground together when I got home on Sunday and retested.
ECU connected right away on the test bench.
So, its something in my car. YAY! ;-|
I dont wantto tow the car back home, but I dont see it making sense to work on it at Tony's as I have to take off work. I also dont want to pay tony to chase wires. I want to pay him to tune...
So I guess I have to tow the car home and start digging into it old school style. Which will have to be Friday, and then work on it while I still have my post Hershey 914 buzz going on.
I will admit I was pricing buying IDFs again to get the car moving under its own power. But I'm not giving up yet.
Bad relay board? Test the power supply pin. It's the one in the white connector on the right/passenger side. Make sure it's getting 12v, maybe even try jumpering it straight to the battery.
Relay board is first of the things I have to check.
The fuel pump also does not turn on when the key is turned, so I think there has to be some wierdness going on there.
When I had carbs it was not much of an issue.
Hot wire. Eliminate everything and then add back one by one. Do you need to borrow my trailer?
Have faith, look what Wally did....
Herb, I'll just flat tow it. Thanks for the offer though!
Main power relay on the board may not be tripping. That would cause both issues.
relay board fuse, could be a switching transistor on the main board also.
Since he's got Megasquirt I listed in his signature I suspect he's talking about the MS board. Another reason I only use MicroSquirt.
Since I will be doing some rewiring, I made something big.
All the 914 wire diagrams in one wall poster.
Big one is the engine side, since that will be my main target.
Little copy of the firewall forward.
Detail of the relay board - my likely nemesis.
And the ledgend for all three charts.
Calipers are in there for scale reference. It's 48x36 inches.
That should help a bit.
my 914 is back in my garage.
Work starts tonight...
Are you using the ms relay board? I only use my original one for the voltage relay.
As usual, life got in the way. But work started at home again on this today.
An old wire harness I got from Joe a longtime ago paid off. I needed to make a new 12 pin harness, and that got made today and is in the car. For the first time in YEARS my car will have reverse lights... assuming the switch at the transmission works.
I still need to test the main board, which will happen this evening after the kids go to bed. After that, I need to attach the plug to the crank fire wires I had to cut. Good times. This is what I want to get done tonight after the kids are in bed - assuming I can keep my eyes open.
Good Luck, If it works are you going to the Import Show next weekend in Carlisle? It sure would be nice to meet you after being so close a couple of weeks ago. I just broke something in my shifter yesterday. I got carried away and shifted to hard or fast I guess. Paul in Harrisburg is going to get it fixed for me so I can attend the show next weekend.
Good luck, keep on it.
Got a lot done today, in my own slow way. Both Molex plug ends are in and the crankfire wires are connected again. So tired I can barely see straight. Goodnight.
I love your poster board! My schematic pages are all taped together and rolled up like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Good luck on this
Keep at it, even an hour a week and you will conquer your demon....
You should rename the car demon btw.
With any luck, tonight I put the harness back in the car, unhooked aside from power and ground, and see if it connects.
We have a connection in the car. repeat! We have a connection in the car!
I had a really good feeling when I turned on the key and suddenly I heard the fuel pump turn on for a few seconds. I had not been getting that.
Loaded tuner studio, and the MS connected!
Slightly scary part is that I have NO CLUE what I did to make it start working. But it is WORKING!
Tomorrow, if I get released from mothers day duty, I'll start replacing the harness in the car. Right now its just the power and ground plugs installed.
The only thing that is not connected now which had been connected earlier is the crankfire sender. Easy enough to see if that kills it, but not tonight.
Send Mom to the spa, instruct kids to clean their rooms in 15 minute segments broken up by Pokemon episodes on Netflix. Attend to car.
Well, found the issue!
Something is wrong with either the throttle position sensor or the wires for the throttle position sensor.
I thought I'd have an easy night hooking back up all the leads. Some of them are not easy to get to.
Turn the key, and no fuel pump. Dammit! I am now using the fuel pump as my dowsing rod. If it turns on foe a few seconds, I'm confident that the brain is working.
Take off a lead and try the pump. One by one. I got the point where I thought I had all the leads off and was starting to get really angry when I noticed the TPS tucked deep in there. Took that lead off and the fuel pump came back.
So, I'm going to replace the sensor, as I really doubt its the wires. I also happen to have another TPS on hand. But not tonight. Its 11:30 on a work night. I gotta get my ass in bed.
Frustrating, but at least I found the issue. I wish I had found it a month ago while the car was at Tony's shop.
Are you saying the fuel pump turns on because of the TPS?
They should have noting to do with eachother
shorted wires in the TPS, drawing down the operating voltage, fuel pump relay won't kick in for the short prime cycle.
fuel pump is a good test to see if the cpu is functioning correctly as it has full voltage...
Replaced the TPS after work today. Tested it and and the fuel pump kicked over! We are in business.
Before I had to start being Dad, I was able to get the rest of the harness plugged back in, and turned the key for a quick test. The fuel pump kicked on just like it should.
I'm close to first start. Stuff left to do:
1) Calibrate sensors (TPS, AIT, CHT... I have a feeling I should have done this earlier, but I think I can do this with the sensors in the car.)
2) add fuel
3) put the air filter in
4) pressurize the fuel system and look for leaks
5) try to start it.
Would be totally awesome to be able to drive the car back to Tony's for final tuning.
Sensors are calibrated and seem to be working correctly.
I did run into a hiccup trying to update the ECU to the latest firmware. The installer would not install the firmware. More investigation is required, but I followed the printed firmware updater instructions to the letter.
Push comes to shove, I just run with the current installed firmware, which is 1 rev behind (for now).
Next step is fuel, and make sure my fuel system does not leak when pressurized.
You will note there is a "coolant temp" gauge. That is actually the head temp at the stock location (as opposed to under a spark plug). I have an under the spark plug CHT for the gauge in the car, giving reading for Cyl 3. Eventually I will install the 4 way. But first things first....
I also learned today that my throttle sticks open a little. There is something it grabs on before it gets fully closed. Thats why in the screen shot its reading at 10% open instead of fully closed.
I still have a few mysteries to work out with the spark tables. I set the offset to 295 degrees per Mark's instructions, but did not see where to set the initial cranking advance to 12 degrees. Still in the steep part of the learning curve for this software.
C'mon Hershey 2020! You can make it! Probably!
A slow methodical approach is good. You're making it happen and you'll have it up and running before you know it!!
Because he will have developed Alzheimer's......
Because he will have developed Alzheimer's.....hey, wait a minute?
gas is in the tank.
Need to rig an inline fuel pressure gauge to make sure I have pressure set correctly. And then I can pressurize the system and look for leaks.
Is it important to measure fuel pressure at the rail, or is any point aft of the fuel pressure regulator acceptable?
No, before the fuel pressure reg. Basically the rail is the best point.
Yes I mispoke.
Plan was to put the gauge into the short peice of hose between the drivers side rail and the FPR. Trying to use the nipple in the rail would make the gauge very hard to read.
Tried to start it tonight for giggles.
No fuel leaks that I could see. But also no indication that the system was actually pressurizing. The gas tank made some gurgling noises after the pump would run.
No clue if the pump is wired backwards or the lines under the tank are kinked or some other issue. Only had 5 minutes to play before I got called in for parenting duties. Really need to get that pressure gauge put in...
Got fuel in the tank?
Good luck, you are closing in on it.
Gotta cycle the key a few times to purge all the air.
I have Mark's sensor/wheel but my base offset timing is set at 62 degrees. Mark has told me to set it closer to 290, but, I never had any luck with this setting. Not sure how to explain it, but, my car runs very well.
Cool. The gurgling I was hearing was likely air getting forced into the tank through the return line. Which would indicate the pump is working properly.
Going to hook an inductive timing light to one of the stubby plug wires to mKe sure I am getting spark.
Going t try and get her fired up this weekend, if I can squeeze in some time. This weekend is f¥€king packed.
Okay, few steps forwards!
and one biggie back.
Fuel system is pressurized, with no obvious leaks. Fuel pump now sounds a little labored, and not just like its free wheeling. No clue how much pressure it has built (those parts come in tomorrow) but it sounds pressurized, and the tank is not gurgling when I turn the key.
Oil pressure warning light went out. YEAH! Which means I was cranking the engine enough to send oil through all the oil lines into the AUX cooler and then to finally build pressure. And no obvious oil leaks (which is meaningless until the engine fires.)
But I'm not getting any spark. Inductance timing light does not flash at all when cranking. I did not expect to have the timing right, but I did expect to at least see some evidence of sparks being thrown.
Obvious possible fault will be the plug I wired into the crank wheel wires. Will have to check them. If thats not it, more digging will be needed.
You should see cranking RPM on your laptop.
Nope, the tach in TunerStudio does not budge. Just tested that.
Crank fire wires?
Under Ignition Setup -> Base Ignition Settings, try flipping the Ignition Input Capture. If it's falling edge, try rising edge. This is how you 'flip the VR wires' in software.
Nope, no dice there either. (handy having a laptop while standing at the car...)
Are these correct?
I am going to check continuity just make sure the pins in the plug are actually mating as expected.
Check the Dual MultiSpark Ignition Options Menu
Single Crank Wheel Input
Enable Auto Trigger
Offset Advance 0.0
after reading the pages with various information here, my acquired 71 1.7 has a megasquirt installed. After the car was not running because of broken rear suspension (which is almost done fixing it) what i did is just install a battery and started the engine with just one time turn on the ignition key, the engine run and immediately went around 700 to 800 rpm. Amazing megasquirt!!! But since i have to drop the engine to fix the suspension, now I don't know if after putting back those several wiring if the car will still run. I have no idea on this MS specially I'm not the one who installed it.
Here is the picture of my MS system. I beleived it is MS III.
Mark what are the flow rates on your injectors? And do you happen to know the plenum volume for a 1.8 plenum?
Does plenum volume include intake runners? I suppose I could just fill it with water and measure that.
Won't THAT be a fun task.
I've never done all that. I don't even know what section you're looking in
General fuel setup. One of the fields is plenum size in CC.
Sounds like I don't need to worry about it.
back on the bench again. :-/
After weeks of connecting, I plug in this morning and suddenly nothing. Only difference was that I put my battery on a charger last night due to all the cranking yesterday.
Get frusterated, and hook up the ECU the Mark lent me - boom. Connection. I have to reload settings, but it connects instantly.
So now i have my ECU out of the car trying to get it to connect again in lab conditions.
A few days ago I tried to load the new firmware, but that operation errored out. I am going to try and redo that on the bench, and hope the new firmware expunges some of the gremlins that have been plaguing me.
Yeah, incomplete firmware upload can be a bad thing.
I found that Manifold Displacement setting, but it's greyed out for me. I tried flipping a few settings to see if I could find out why yours is available, but nothing I changed to enable that setting. I think this is all tied together.
Did you get the latest firmware from http://www.useasydocs.com/details/usv3code.htm as well as the INI file?
It can, and I guess (am hoping) this is a result of that. But in the past a bad firmware updates have shown up immediately, not a few days and a dozen restarts later.
Until you are getting an rpm reading to register in Tuner Studio you will not get a spark or any fuel spray from the injectors. During cranking you should see an rpm reading of a few hundred rpm.
Until you solve that issue the car absolutely will not start. Even iif your settings related to crank angle, etc. are off you should get an rpm reading. The possibilities include a bad crankshaft position sensor, bad wiring between the sensor and the MS ecu, incorrect position sensor settings in Tuner Studio and finally a bad ecu.
There is really no point worrying about other possible problems until you have a working position sensor.
I've been through this,
What is the difference between the MSExtra firmware that comes loaded on the v3 units and the BG 3.83 firmware? The unit Mark sent me still has the MSExtra firmware and I'm afraid of briking the unit if I try and update it to the 3.83.
I have a feeling my unit got bricked when I tried to load the 3.83 firmware and it errored out... Its not responding on the bench. At all.
Also, how can I test the crank fire sensor without dropping the engine and pulling the doghouse? I am getting zero indication of engine speed with either my unit (before it stopped working) and the spare unit.
I probed the plug, and the plug has continuity for the blue wire, white wire, and shield. I also double checked to make sure I did not cross wire the plug - and I did not.
So the fault is either at the sender, or at the harness ampseal. Tonight I'll check continuity between the plug and the ampseal pins, and HOPE its my issue. If its not I have a long and frustrating night ahead of me.
Have you tried measuring the voltage off the sensor while cranking? Even with a digital Peter you should get a signal. I do have an oscilloscopebifbyou need to borrow one.
It's a special firmware install that ONLY tests the trigger wheel. So you don't have to configure anything, or worry about settings. You just run the program, crank the engine for 30s, then analyze the results.
That page isn't exactly clear, you have to load the S19 firmware file onto your MS first. Just like loading any other firmware, use the MS Downloader program.
Sorry, Pound per hour
Use the tooth analyzer.
Where I am now.
tooth wheel to sensor clearance.
When I crank the engine, sometimes I get a burst of activity on the tach for the first quarter second of cranking. It will flash ~325 rpm and then the signal will drop to zero. Not all the time, but some of it. Usually the tach just stays pegged at zero.
Right now I have the car up and front tin and fan off. I'm not sure I have the clearance to remove the doghouse.
I can pop the plug end off, but getting to the bolt/screw that holds the shield wire will be really hard w/o removing the doghouse.
does the sensor require 12 volts to operate? or does it generate it own voltage via the trigger wheel? I may be able to test the sensor in place and see if its the wiring.
Herb, if you could come up for a day, i'd really appreciate the guidance from someone who is not feeling his way around in the dark like I am.
Oh, by the way. If I need to flip the trigger wheel, now would be the time to tell me. lol.
It is so whiskey time.
The gap there doesn't look close enough to me.
Should be well under a mm from my experience.
The fan hub alignment pin should be roughly lined up with the missing tooth. Which means when you flip it, the missing tooth stays in the same place. But it really doesn't matter where the missing tooth is once you get it running.
There are only a few possibilities if you are not showing a tach signal. You have eliminated the ecu as being the problem by swapping in a known good ecu. There are three other possibilities:
1. Bad wiring between the sensor and the ecu.
2. A bad crank position sensor.
3. The sensor could be positioned incorrectly. Too close or too far away.
4. The wrong sensor type specified - VR vs Hall.
5. Incorrect setup of the conditioner circuit.
In TunerStudio you can look at the Logger to view the CPS input pulses. I found this helpful.
Zach, I would swing by but am flat out until after the 14th. you should have it running by then.
picture of what I just installed yesterday..a little close so I spaced it out by 1 very thin washer. running the sensor and wheel on my drill press, I can generate a pretty good signal at a pretty good, 1/4 inch gap.
Didnt you hack the sensor wires and then reconnect them? IIRC, there was concern that the signal would be goofed up from this maneuver, unless I am mistaken.
Its a possibility. Mark does not think so, but it is a possibility.
Also a strong possibility that I don't have the software set up properly.
The shield wire grounds to the engine case. I am wondering if it has an improper ground. I'm going to pull the doghouse at some point this week (if I can get time) which will also let me pull the wire and sensor. Then I can test it on the bench.
At this point I'd start looking at taking everything, put it on a bench top, hook the TWo a drill, hook the rest to a stim board and diagnose.
It must be a PITA to try and trouble shoot everything bent over the engine bay.
At this point the tach is the only sensor malfunctioning. Everything else seems to be working fine and responding to input.
I'm just gonna be an asshole until it happens -- use the tooth analyzer tool.
I will. Sometime this week I will get that loaded. Was hoping to today but kid B and I both get t stomach bugs today. :-(
I may have lead you astray with my comment about wrong sensor type. I have an MS3ex so VR vs Hall requires jumpers on the main board. I believe you are using a Microsquirt which requires different wiring connections to the ecu and no internal changes.
The appropriate manual for Microsquirt discusses checking out the crankshaft sensor in section 2.15 on page 38. This is a link to the manual:
I tested the sensor location using the Composite Logger and Tooth Logger as discussed in the manual just using the starter to turnover the engine. I had to adjust the sensor location location closer to the tooth wheel than I initially had set it to get a crank signal.
Let me know, but I seem 2 be available this weekend if I can help. If not, I will put mine back together...
I'm helping family move Saturday but will be free Sunday.
I should be able to do Sunday, anytime after 12:00..
Last night I got the BG 3.83 code loaded. Yay!
I also tried to load the tooth analizer, but the firmware uploader did not like it. Need to see if there is a different uplader for that code.
However, once the BG 3.83 code was loaded, the ECU started constantly tripping the fuel pump solenoid. Nonstop. As soon as it finished one pulse, the solinoid would trip for another.
At this point I was too tired to continue (was not able to start work until 10PM last night) so I just unplugged everything and came in. I'm going to reload the MSextra 3.3.3 code and run with that. I may also try the MS uploader to see if I can get the tooth analyzer to work - but this will be obviated if Herb brings his oscilloscope tomorrow.
Planning on it!
The pulsing fuel pump will go away once you choose the ecu type in the general settings. Which is to say, it's normal.
Stuff got done today.
We did not fire, but we got closer!
Herb and his son came over.
We got the B&G 3.830a code loaded on the ECU
We used Herb's oscilloscope to confirm that we were getting a solid VR signal from the crank wheel.
We wiped out the B&G code and loaded the tooth analyzer to confirm that the ECU was recognizing the signal from the VR.
Put back on the B&G code and got stuck.
So we called Mark out in California who walked us through the settings needed to have the ECU start using the tach signal.
We got the VR signal reading the 170ish RPM from cranking, and even got an occasional spark (as registered from the timing light). But the engine would not fire.
Aside from getting the right fuel and the right spark at the right time, logs showed that the ECU was getting shitty power. We think this was due to an early iteration of the fuse block on the harness. Mark has since moved to a more robust block, and I bought one to replace the fuse block currently on the harness.
Output from the tooth analyzer. The missing tooth was inverted here, so we had to change the setup in Tuner Studio.
I've been watching this thread from day one. Every email notification I jump with anxiety.
This car is cursed.
Its getting closer. I've put all other hobbies aside this summer to work this out. Made my wood shop off limits. I've not been shooting (much) or building firearms at all.
For the past many years, I've ignored the car for projects with faster turn around. Now I'm trying to keep myself as laser focused on it as I am able.
When I get reliable spark (which is the battle I'm fighting now), I'll be able to set timing fairly easily. That will also get me to a point where it should start and idle.
The only rapid turnaround projects I have been doing are little things for the 914. Like installing the BMW mirror. And today I took off a door panel to fix whatever was wrong with the window regulator. I've also really dialed in the shifter. Other small stuff like new carpet, LED tails and front turn signals, and rebuilding the front headlight mechanisms are on the work list too, but these are all "I'm frustrated lets do something easy" jobs.
The car has been problematic. But I'm learning everything as I do it. Bound to run into errors along the way.
I look forward to this running.....and the subsequent "I got towed home again" posts as you work through all the bugs
Not trying to be mean spirited Zach. Just wanted to know when was the last time this car was on the road?
Spring of 2011 I got pissed off about carbs being pissy and decided to take it off the road till I found a better way.
have you been on the MS forums to get some answers there? They are a bit slow but usually give good info..
A good person to talk to is Matt Cramer, owner of DIY auto tune. He knows MS inside and out
Just turned down a kayak down muddy creek trip to save time to work on my car tomorrow.
*sigh* that one kinda stung. Would have been with a crew that would have given me tips on how to get around a feature that has intimidated the hell out of me...
These guys make it look easy....
Get r done!
car looks good.
Did you ever get this sorted and running?
Not touched it since June. Will pick it up again after hunting season.
It. Ran. Today.
Doug came over today. We fixed some kinks under the gas tank.
Found some leaks. Fixed them.
Found that the fuel lines in the engine bay were plumbed backwards at the pressure regulator. Fixed that.
Primed it a few times (well, Doug primed it while I watched the fuel pressure gauge at the fuel rail).
And it fired up.
Fuel pressure is low. Only 20 pounds. I need to adjust the pressure regulator.
I need to seriously do something about the rats nest of wires in the engine bay.
I need to get a new throttle cable and hook it up so I can start the car from inside the car, and not stand by the engine with my hand on the throttle.
And then I need to actually tune it.
But it is getting CLOSE!
Congrats, the hard part is over, now it's just time to tidy up the mess.
Way to go!
Way to go Zach!!
Look like the mystery 914 is finally to Hershey..
Nice! Now start tuning and go drive.
keep going, you're close now.
Way to go Zach!
Kick ass. This is great news!!!
Congrats Zach. Expect ya at Hershey then. Way to go.
Good Times ahead :-) Have fun tuning, you will learn so much!
I'm back from Hershey and exhausted. But there is an update to the saga.
The car moved under its own power this weekend.
Scott, Mike, ans Stephen helped me with it Friday before we went to Hershey for the weekend - and I was trading PMs with Mark during down time at the big swap meet.
Where it is:
there are two critical path items that need addressed:
1) The shifter needs adjusting. Its out of phase and needs help. When you can get it in first, it pops out. It will find 3rd and 5th fine. R, 2, 4 are missing.
2) it runs really strong but at too high an idle (1500rpm warmed up.) needs tuning.
Once those 2 things are done I can start gently driving the car and tuning it.
And then aggressively driving the car an tuning it.
And then I can make it look pretty again. :-)
Can't believe the shifting did not piss Mike off enough to fix it.
Are you planning the turbo setup yet?
Take the car to get dyno tuned. I'm gonna keep saying it.
Mike had been working with the shifter Friday, and had it most of the way fixed.
I think I got it re-aligned last night.
As soon as I can get the car to idle properly, I'll take it to tony to get it dyno tuned. I know he can do that.
Another note -
At one point there was a concern that the stock tach would probably not work with the microsquirt output.
I was intending to just replace the stock tack with a modern one. Scotty_b suggested just plugging the stock tack in to see if it worked, so I did. And it did. For whatever reason, it worked great with no bouncing as you ran up and down the rev range. We were comparing it with the tach output on my laptop, and it was perfectly accurate!
One of the things that it has me thinking though is to replace my smaller diameter steering wheel with a regular diameter one. It would be nice to actually see my gauges.
I think the late tachs work and the early ones don't.
Did some work on the car today, and yesterday. Took advantage of the break in the heat and the lack of kids this weekend.
I did nothing in the engine bay. However, I got the front trunk re-buttoned up. Added a molex connector to the wires that run to the fuel level sender.
I also spend several hours diagnosing shifter issues. There is only 2 stock parts left of my shifter (and one of those has been modified). So figuring out shifting issues is a bit more involved. I was getting R, 3, 5 and missing 1, 2, 4. I finally found my issue by climbing under the car and working the shifter at the console. Two bolts that hold the gate at the console were slightly too long and were hitting the ball cup. Once I clearnaced those a bit, I got the shifter adjusted quick. The shifter on my car is really precise now. I'm pleased.
I modded the cover to fit over the enhanced shifter console and put it back on.
With the car back on the ground I started doing work in the cabin. There is dubious wiring from my earlier iteration of the car. Since I am adding a center console, I needed to move gauges around. Since I made no notes (that I remember) the first time around, I spent part of the afternoon chasing wires to see where they go.
My goal right now is to get the cabin rewired where it needs it before finishing up the engine. Last thing I want is a wire short or a electrical fire.
Pictures please of your Megasquirt set up in the engine compartment.
Sound like you're going to be driving soon.
Do I dare say it......
So. My desire to eventually drive the car has overrun my desire to finish this build myself.
I'm sending the car to McMark to button up my EFI and get it dyno-tuned.
With any luck I'll be able to fly out and drive it home sometime this spring.
It'll be good to see your car on the road again Zach.
That's great news Zach glad you're getting it done.
However, my only concern is your plan to drive it back home from Grand Rapids to York Pa. You might want to ease your way back into it once McMark is done and have him tell you if he thinks the car is solid enough to make the long trip home.
Just saying if it were me I'd get it shipped home, probably be less expensive then flying back out to Grand Rapids to pick it up and drive it home.
Car is at Marks shop, and there has been progress.
Last Friday, my helper steered the car while I pushed it out of the garage and got it down the drive way.
So very dusty!
But also really nice to see it out in the sun again.
Up on the flatbed ready for its big trip to McMark.
Mark started having some of the same issues I was having with the spark signal and getting random misses. So he took out the plug I put in to the crank fire wires.
Seeing as how I doubt I'll be removing the wire harness again, I told him it was okay to delete the plug and make it a permanent join.
But that didn't fix the weak spark signal.
mark said he went so far as to build a test rig that only hooked up to the VR sensor and it still had issues when on the car, but worked fine when off the car. They tested all the EFI stuff, and it made no change. Pulled the battery, no change.
Pulled the starter....
And got a solid strong signal!
So, somehow my hi-torque starter has been interfering with my ignition signal. A stock starter worked just fine.
Mark was so excited he started texting me this afternoon as soon as he had figured it out.
This actually may be the answer to why I was always getting random misses with the Mallory as well. No one could explain it, but I would get constant misfires from the spark feed cutting out randomly. I worked around the problem at the time by putting in a HUGE coil and just pumping more energy into each pulse. There would still be misses, but the spark that went through went through with a lot more power.
I don't know that I EVER would have thought to pull the starter and test it with another starter.
I need help with this one. How is a starter affecting running? Bad connection to the power connection at the starter?
I certainly hope that this works out for you, I have been watching you rebuild and get this car running for a long time.
My hat is off to Mark for finding that, what a great find. Still confused to why, but still a great find.
That was one of the craziest troubleshooting sessions I've had. I tried everything and was pulling my hair out because nothing was working. Sometimes when all the obvious stuff isn't the problem you have to try the crazy stuff. All in all, I tried the following:
1 Removed the connector Zach added.
2 Tried a spare VR sensor.
3 Tried a whole new wire to the Vr sensor.
4 Tried a spare ECU.
5 Tried a dedicated, VR-only wiring setup.
6 Pulled the VR only setup and tested it with a trigger wheel on my lathe.
7 Tried the VR only setup back on the car, but with the ECU powered by a separate battery (isolating the ECU).
8 Tried the VR-only setup with separate battery and by turning the engine by hand. (This is where things started Working)
9 Swapped in a spare starter and left the Ford booster solenoid and factory wiring disconnected and used a starter button. Things still worked.
10 Reconnected the solenoid and factory wiring back the way it was but with the spare starter, everything still worked.
Whew! Next week I'll actually put a tune in the ECU for the first time and see if it runs.
Oh yeah, I also tried adding extra ground cables in case engine grounding was the issue. It wasn't.
Wow thats one crazy issue. Wierd that that the starter can affect the VR sensor when its not even energized...
Well done Mark!
since I have a hi torque starter also, I will be watching.
Unless there is some current leakage through the starter, I just can't see how it would affect the signals...???
Glad its working!
Wow Zach, this is great news and amazing that in such a short period of time it sounds like McMark has gotten to the root of your problems and is closing in quickly to getting your car back on the road. Perfect weather coming for a ride (if it doesn't snow Sunday).
Are you still thinking of Driving it back?
Great find but really weird.
So put in a different starter and the VR sensor works fine? What is the VR sensor? Is that a power supply for the Megasquirt?
Everyone like to believe in PFM (pure funking magic) wrt electricity and electronics because one cannot see what is happening in an electric circuit until it starts working or the smoke is let out of something.
Since it seems the actual root cause has not been determined besides putting in a different starter, I'll take a guess that with the original starter in the circuit, there is some sort of instability causing oscillation wrt the impedance of the starter and the characteristic impedance of the power rails. Not all dc power supplies are stable over all load conditions.
Did anyone use an oscilloscope to check voltages at the VR sensor or the starter? If so, what did the voltage look like? I don't trust voltmeters to give a accurate dc reading since voltmeters generally average the voltage spikes and oscillations it sees. An oscope shows the actual voltage.
I say this about using an oscope after an experience trying to figure out why a new chip we were developing at Lucent wasn't working. Power was a stable 3.3Vdc as read on our voltmeter. We put the oscope on the 3.3V and found it was 3.3Vdc with 2VPP ripple on top of it. Voltmeter said Ok but oscope revealed we were fucked.
Son's smile says , my first car is almost ready for me
Sitting at work daydreaming about driving my car this spring.
Its been a long long LONG time since I have done that.
Turns out, as is so often the case, that there were two issues contributing to the same problem. After I posted above that I thought I had the whole thing solved, I came back the next day and the signal was wacky again. I didn't touch or change anything, it just didn't work anymore. After a bit more testing I found that the VR signal wires weren't being shielded correctly from EMI. So I added a jumper wire from the shielding to batt. neg. and everything cleared right up. Pulled the jumper, problem came back. AHA! I left everything alone and tested it a couple more times each day for a few days. Each time was the same, with the stock starter I could cause or fix the problem by connecting/disconnecting the VR shield jumper.
Today I installed the hi-torque starter since I thought I had proved that wasn't the problem and lo and behold, the VR sensor signal with the hi-torque starter was garbage no matter what I did. So I feel vindicated since the starter did turn out to be a problem. Either this hi-torque is degrading somehow, or they all throw out a LOT more EMI than a stock starter. Once I installed the new rebuilt starter I ordered, everything went back to working depending on the VR shield jumper.
I couldn't have solved this issue without finding both contributing factors. Now I'll replace the VR sensor wire completely and improve the grounding setup of the shielding. This improvement will reflect in all future versions of my MicroSquirt setup as well.
Tomorrow I need to solve the 70psi fuel issue as well, and then...finally...I can try starting the car.
Great news! I think that the MS only uses the VR sensor for a couple of revs anyway? I think I saw a video of it being removed after starting. I can believe that the starter is very noisy, just when you need to get a stable VR signal.
Glad you figured it out!
The Son is smiling.....
Have you guys considered switching out the VR sensor for a hall sensor of the same size? The hall sensors are not effected by EMI like the VRs are. I dumped my VR a few years ago because of intermittent EMI issues that would induce a random miss.
May be at least worth looking into going forward. Glad you got a handle on it.
It's something to keep in mind. But I haven't had any issues with this setup on my car, and now that Zach's is sorted we'll see how it goes. Nothing is ever ruled out completely.
So... It takes 6 years for a megasquirt conversion...?
I've only been thinking about it for 6 years. Can't pull the trigger...
Mark said my 2056 dynoed 130 HP and 140 TQ at the wheels.
I'm pretty pleased at that. Looking forward to getting the dyno chart.
Really looking forward to driving my car.
Congrats in order for "stick to itness"! Enjoy the Hell out of it. Didn't know about the Divorce. Factor that in and you get Triple Points for successfully weaving your 914 through Divorce Court.
I am thrilled for you!
Been a long haul, I hope I make it to Hershey to see you and your car both!
Got this from Mark this morning.
Assuming 18% drive train loss, engine is making 149HP at the crank. Not bad for a 2056, and a lot more then I expected.
I don't have an RPM plot yet. Still the torque goes up FAST and then gets flat. I like it.
Still some weirdness to be sorted. It's loosing fuel pressure at WOT (probably a kink somewhere) and there is an electric issue that may be the engine relay board failing. But, man, this is progress. I'm pleased.
Glad to see you're getting it sorted!!
Awesome! Thanks for sharing your numbers and graph. Something to look forward to hopefully
Quoting the Monkey that got his tail caught in the lawn mower, "It won't be long now".
I am so impressed with Megasquirt. The video of Mark driving down to the dyno was so smooth.
As for stick-toitiveness, sometimes you just have to know when to write a check. This is why I go to Mark. I've got no time and I get to enjoy it sooner!
Its going to stay with Mark a little longer to figure out what is causing the electrical issue. This was a new issue to me. But the alternator is not charging fully, and suddenly the ignition switch would not turn off the car and stuff on the dash started getting wonky.
Mark thinks its probably the relay board.
When the car comes home, I'm going to wash it and get the interior back together and just drive it for a bit.
And then I'll start hacking up the fenders for flares and 5 lug.
But it will be nice to be able to actually DRIVE the car again.
Shipper just contacted me and the car comes home Monday night!
The charging issue was the voltage regulator.
Mark had to make a slight change in wiring to fix the run on issue after the key was turned off. Maybe he will chime in on that.
Now I just need to get the interior back together, get the head temp sensors into place and the console hacked to support the 4 way gauge.
But the car will be drive able Monday!
I'm pretty sure the feedback/run-on issue is a failing alternator. But I changed the wiring to an alternate, but still correct setup.
The car also needs a warmup idle air bypass. The 1.8 style should work well. It's a little hard to start and warmup right now, but I tested it was a controlled air leak (a long hose from the intake manifold to my hand!) and was able to make it idle really nicely from cold.
Also, the fuel lines need to be more comfortably routed.
I've got one of those in my parts stash. How will it need to be wired in?
Duct tape Mark to the rear trunk, leave the engine lid off.
It will run perfect!
Shipper delayed pickup. So it left GR on Monday instead.
Got it around 5 today. Took it for a quick spin around the block before looking at the gas gauge and seeing I was running on fumes.
There are some punch out tasks, but its really close now.
1) fab up a hold down for the battery
2) Air box, fuse panel need to be bolted down.
3) under tank fuel lines need to be shortened up to remove kinking. This will kinda suck as it will remove the service loop, but it needs to happen.
4) put the AAR back on the car and close up the air leak at Idle.
5) interior back into the car.
6) adjust the clutch cable.
7) make a new shifter knob. The mushroom cloud looks cool but I don't like how it feels.
I've used these once, and have been meaning to try them again:
Those are for AN-5 (5/16") barbs. I'm not 100% confident that's the one you need, but the technology is nice. Reach up in the hole, pop the quick disconnect and you're done.
There's also caps, because IIRC it's not 100% leak proof, just a occasional drip.
Mark (or anyone) do you think its worth putting in a dual port pump instead of the 3 port I have in there now?
I would for plumbing simplicity. It's less components to fail, and less to deal with when servicing or accessing.
But functionally, no there's no benefit. A pump is a pump.
Glad to hear you are rolling again, Zach. You deserve it.
not in that order!
Great to see you have your car back and running!
I can't believe Mark ever figured out the voodoo starter issue.
I would have replaced the whole motor before ever thinking of the starter.
Get out and drive it now.
Mark and I still have our heads together to get the cold start right.
I adjusted the idle when warm that the engine would idle fine without the air leak.
Mark is going to make a small harness to wire the AAR into the Microsquirt.
I energized the AAR and timed its function and it was closed up within 40 seconds. Thats just not enough time. So what we are going to do is have the AAR energize when the engine warm up is complete.
I've been having connection issues getting my laptop to talk to the ECU, and have traced it down to a continuity issue in the coms cable that goes into the ECU. I'm guessing there is some oil/dirt/crap in the 3.5mm minijack which I consider to be a weak point. tonight I'm going to unscrew the housing from the minijack and start probing to see if the jack is the issue or the wires. Its possible that something vibrated loose either in the Ampseal connector or at the jack or somewhere in between.
I've driven the car a few times. No long drives yet. Buts its more punchy then I remember, and it sounds TOTALLY different then it did with carbs.
You should be able to slow the AAR down a bit by adding a series resistor. Although if the resistor is too large, the AAR won't open completely. It might be possible for the AAR to completely open with a series resistor and slow down the opening timing.
Is there a reason why you are not using a PWM idle valve that would be directly controlled by the Microsquirt ECU? They are relatively inexpensive and very easy to setup.
I'd like to know more about the PWM valves.
My biggest issue right now, and I'm pulling my hair out over it, is that I can't get the ECU to talk to my laptop.
Mark and the tuner were both able to connect. My laptop had connected in the past. I've gone through all the trouble shooting guides. Loopback tests work for the cable and serial to USB adapter. All the wires have continuity to the right places. All my drivers are updated. It just wont connect and I'm going nuts trying to figure out why.
Mark, could I get screen shots of your port settings? This is where I am sitting.
If anything here looks weird please let me know.
The other option I have is to try a Serial to bluetooth adapter instead of the serial to USB. Which I have been meaning to set up anyway so I can use my iPhone as a data logger.
Those match my settings.
I know Zach's tired of me saying it, but I'm gonna post it here for everyone else to see...
When I started working with MicroSquirt I tried three or four different USB serial converters and never had any luck with them. In fact, one time one of those units glitched somehow and erased the MicroSquirt while driving with the laptop connected.
After wasting tons and tons of time, I just went on Amazon and bought a https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Latitude-D630-Laptop-Refurbished/dp/B014WVHL40/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1493639340&sr=8-3&keywords=latitude+d630+refurbished with a built in COM port for a little over $100.
And I've never looked back. It's the right tool for the job.
That being said, the bluetooth setup shows promise, and may be a better solution than a dedicated laptop.
I've had consistent connectivity success with the serial to usb adapter listed on diyautotune.com's website for my Megasquirted scirocco and TunerStudio. You may want to try that one.
Built and configured the Serial to Bluetooth adapter last night, but was too zapped to want to go out in the driving rain to get into my garage and try it out.
hopefully removing the USB adapter will allow me to connect.
Are you running PortCheck at the same time as trying to connect to uS ECU?
The PortCheck will open and hold the connection and prevent the ECU from connecting.
I suggest to close the port check program, reset the COM port (USB adapter) and then run the ECU search function under "connection" tab in Tuner Studio.
If you can see the port, the ECU should connect, assuming that you have the physical connection in place. I had issues with the phono jack not seating properly at first.
I am a fan of hardwire connections not wireless comms.
Bit the bullet and bought one of the refurbished Dell 630 laptops with the serial connections.
Man I hope it works. I'm tired of fighting with my Acer and trying to get it to connect with the RS232-USB adapter.
The Dell laptop with the native serial port came in. Still not connecting but getting a different failure mode
In the Tunerstudio's Mini terminal, with the ignition on and the Microsquirt powered up, it is acting like its doing a successful loopback test. IE, anything I type into the upper window is looped back to the lower window, just like I had jumped the pins for a loopback test.
The cable does not do this on its own - it has to be plugged into the Microsquirt ECU.
I loaded up the newest versions of tuner studio and made sure my port settings were correct.
Hopefully this gets me closer to being able to connect. Thoughts?
I've gone round and round with the ECU connecting.
DIYautotune support thinks that the ECU itself is bad at this point. Either the coms chip or the coms ground going bad will cause the echo I'm seeing.
They have recommended a shop in Virginia Beach that will test and repair the ECU if needed.
If the ECU tests okay, I'm going to bring my laptop, cable and ECU and get the tuner there to show me WTF I'm doing wrong. This is right down the road from Scott, and I head down that way about monthly.
Did you turn it off and turn it on again??
What version of Windows are you running?
We've had troubles with Windows 8+ running some programs that use USB or serial ports. It seems like the program is running but it really isn't connecting to the peripheral.
We had to turn off something in Windows which authenticated the port or program. I don't recall the exact procedure. Had to do it for several different programs.
I still have the three spare tester units. I can throw them in a box for you today if you want.
Zach, about loading a program in Windows 10, I described your issue to my colleague and his response is:
There's a special startup sequence that you go through with Windows 10 to load unsigned drivers. But you only need to do that if the driver fails to install. It sounds like this is a different kind of problem.
Did you check the cable and baud rate as I suggested in post 551? If these are not correct you will never connect.
And the verdict is...
The coms ground pin on the Microsquirt was burned. That's why I was unable to connect. The guy said once he replaced the bad pin it connected immediately. He says its a fairly common fault.
If I'm still having issues when I get it back, I'm going to pull the harness out of the car, and take the ECU, the harness, and my laptop with me to his shop when I go down to visit Scotty_B in richmond in August, since the guy's shop is about an hour further down the road.
If anyone was interested, the guy DIYAutotune sent me to to check the Microsquirt was:
Peter is one of the good guys. Been around quite a while and very good with the MS units.
I still need to complete the new wiring on mine....soon...
I have to send mine in to be fixed as well. But it is a resistor not a pin.
Wow. Did he mention if there was a reason? I should probably have you send those other units to him instead of back to me when you're done and check them all out.
So a brief update and a little progress.
I've not touched the car in months. On Sunday I NEEDED a project to take my mind off other issues. So I built a test harness (that only had power, ground, and coms in the Ampseal. I set it up on a switch with a 2 amp fuse in the circuit. Hooked my car battery to the system for isolated power. Plugged in my laptop, ECU, powered the system on and the ECU IMMEDIATELY connected to my laptop!
So, the ECU is fixed, and my laptop (I was using the Dell with the native RS232 port) has proven good.
I'm going to do some connectivity tests on my harness again (and check them against the test harness that I know works). I'm hopeful the the RX and TX lines are just in the Ampseal backwards (which would be my fault).
Should be in business soon!
Oh, also I've been driving the car a little as is. Only a few miles at a time... Man, I really miss this car!
Great news! I will assist if needed. We will be in the new house next week and should be fully moved by early October. Lift will be available.
baby steps to progress.
Today I bit the bullet and took the harness out of the car.
Hooked it up on my kitchen table, and instantly got a connection! I literally danced a little.
Again, all that was connected was switched, fused power, ground, my battery and coms. No other sensors were hooked up.
The ampseal connector on my car's harness is CONSIDERABLY looser then the one on the test harness I made. I'm sure its from plugging and unplugging it so many times. But for the sake of being sure, I unplugged and reseated the ECU.
Power on, no connection detected.
So, I think the ampseal itself may be the issue. Or one of the COMS pins inside the ampseal needs some love. I hate taking these things apart... they are fiddly. But that is my next move. Pull the COMS pins and inspect them. I think I have another new Ampseal 35 block on hand, maybe I just replace the loose block with a new tight one.
Now that I am following this train of thought...
I wonder if while chasing connectivity while the ECU had the blown COMS ground, I probed too aggressively and expanded a female COMS pin in the Apmseal block so that it no longer has a good mechanical connection to the male pin on the ECU?
Just another thing to test...
Its incredible how this drags.
I had sent the harness back to Mark to have him re-wire the Ampseal. Which he did. As soon as it got back, I hooked it up and have been happily communicating with my laptop.
In January I wired in an AAR, but have not had a chance to test it yet.
Last weekend I put the harness back in my car. Well most of it. Weather went from 70 to 40 in about an hour and I ended up getting sick. :-(
This weekend I'm hopeful to finish the wiring.
We still have salt on the roads here, and the forecast is for several more inches of Snow Saturday (WTF! - I've never had snow this late in the spring.)
I finally bought a 2 port fuel pump and will be simplifying the plumbing under the tank. Hopefully this will resolve the issue I was having with fuel pressure decreasing under load.
I know I can't make Hershey this year. So that pressure is off. But i still want to drive this car. And I have motivation right now from the trip to Amelia Island. So lets make use of it.
get yours done and I will finish mine...lets go for a ride!
Fuel pump arrived this weekend. But, well, life. I've been stupid busy. Being sick as a dog for a week didn't help, and working 7 days a week.
Damn, this month has flown by! I'm so close. I need to make time and finish this thing!
Like eating an Elephant. However some Elephants are bigger than others...
While it is frustrating when you don't have time to work on things, I think it is worse when you have time but lack the part or have to spend lots of time on a minor issue that should take 5-min and then turns in to a Mongolian cluster F&*k and steals all of your time.
Hang in there. You will likely still beat me back on the road.
Been working on the car in little bites.
The gas tank is epoxy sealed with the Caswell kit.
The new pump is in place and wired in. No fuel lines are run to it yet.
I’ve bent up a hard fuel line to make that tight 180 turn after the fuel pump. Tired of fighting kinks.
The harness is back fully in the car, including the AAR valve wiring.
The AAR is wired, but the hose barbs are HUGE compared to what I need. I will either need to make fittings to step the hoses down, or replace the AAR with one using the same size hoses.
I’m close to starting the car again. Maybe this weekend. Won’t have a working AAR yet, but should be able to get the engine running again.
God all this takes me so long.
I looked back but couldn't find any info in this thread about your AAR, but if the one I was working on will work I can send you my adapter piece and you'll have to order a Hyundai valve.
check out my solution for the AAR. Post 49 and onward.
If Im correct you bought a 2 wire unit. If your ports are as big as mine, I took some barbed brass fittings and JB welded them in there so I could plumb .5" hose, which is darn close to the 13mm stock.
or go with Marks setup.
Tank went back in last night. Front end of the car is jacked up as I need to get under and attach the hoses to the underside of the tank now. I'm not leaving myself a service loop for anti-kinking reasons, which has made everyhting a little more challenging.
But if it results in fuel pressure not dropping under throttle, then its worth it.
I may be able to start the car this evening. At least, thats the plan. In theory everyhting will work and I'll be able get my laptop on it. Or maybe just take it for a gentle drive around the block.
great news! Mine is running. I went for tuning run on Monday, but the rear brakes are dragging and I had bad brake fade.
Need to source new rear calipers.....
I’m glad I only put 2 gallons of gas in it. Looks like I popped a hose.
Just finished siphoning all the gas back out of the tank.
I’m glad I took the time to push the car outside before cycling the pump to build pressure.
Uhh. I’d say the new fuel pump is delivering plenty of pressure.
Keep battling bro. You are close to the finish line!
Back in the garage. Hose popped off the pressure pipe as suspected. Easy to fix but no time now as I have to go visit mom in the hospital, and have to clean up.
I have a really early set of Chris’s stainless fuel lines, before he started putting bubble flares on them. I just need to tighten the clamp down more over the hose.
Zach. if you have a flaring tool put a very small flare on the end. Just enough to make a ridge. If you don't have a flaring tool you can take needle nose pliers and gently bend the end edge out enough to form a small ridge. It doesn't take much. We used to do this to the copper pipe so that the rubber cone washers wouldn't slip off. Our pressures varied from 30psi to 90psi.
Its running! We are back to the point we were last summer. it runs but has a very high idle.
I love how brite my tail lights are with the LEDs. It has really made a difference.
I'm connected to my laptop! That is the error that took about a year to fix! Now I need to fix my tuning laptop. The battery is DEAD and it only runs when connected to an outlet. One is ordered.
A slightly bigger issue is that the throttle cable is somehow trashed. :-( Looks like something was chewing on it, and the wire sheath is all fucked up and causing the cable to bind. So I need to order and run a new throttle cable. This issue is keeping the car from being drivable at all.
My fuel pressure is also set too low - 30PSI. But that is easy enough to fix. Given that it was late I did not test to see if fuel pressure dropped under throttle. Ill test that tomorrow.
I found a new Terry throttle cable in my parts stash. It may have come from Kens parts that I bought up after he passed (thanks buddy!).
I had Theo help me pull the old cable and run the new cable in and he was awesome. Still need to hook up the throttle pedal and the throttle. But the hard part is done.
(yes, we have 2 pin type jackstands holding up the car. I leave the jack in place as an added layer of safety.)
I was under the car with him, but he is getting old enough where he does not really need a ton of direction anymore. Just need to show him where things go and let him figure things out.
I should be able to get the throttle cable buttoned up at some point next week. I just need the AAR and I should I’d be able to drive it to Jim’s party in early August. 2 weeks left! eek!
Started to get on you about jack stands...but, now I see them.
One big thing I noticed is no safety glasses on your son. I didn't wear them for years. Then, after a near miss, I now wear them religiously when working on the car where something may go flying or debris may drop in my eyes.
I was using two pin type jack stands and the jack as well as an added layer of security.
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