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Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 07:13 PM

I have a Boxster customer with a brake problem. She's had the car for 140k miles and has taken it with her to Hawaii and back.

Late in August, she experienced a very strange brake failure about 50 yards from her driveway. The pedal went to the floor. She stopped with the parking brake. Immediately after stopping, the brakes worked normally again.

She took the car to her old mechanic, who replaced the master cylinder.

Last week, it happened again. This time, she was going 45 and had to swerve to miss traffic. She ended up in the grass, facing the other way by the time she stopped. Once again, the brakes were back immediately and she drove home.

When she returned to her mechanic, he told her the car was a liability and said he couldn't help her any more.

That's when she found me.



There are no fault codes stored or active for the ABS and she is now afraid of the car. She wants to keep it, though.

She's a school teacher who can't afford the $4000+ bill to replace the ABS (if that were to become necessary).

We have discussed bypassing the ABS hydraulically, but I told her I have ethical questions I have to ponder before doing so.




I would like your opinions, please.

Posted by: messix Oct 20 2011, 07:19 PM

i think the liabilty of altering the brake system like that even though sound could leave very exposed legally.

Posted by: Krieger Oct 20 2011, 07:19 PM

Last time I checked, there were tons of cars on the road without abs that work wonderfully. ABS= anti lock brakes. If the car still functions without the system and the driver isn't an effin airhead. Is there a legal aspect to it? Maybe have here sign a waiver...that will release you from any liability. Right? And no I'm not a lawer.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 07:22 PM

That's why I asked an ethics question and not a legal question.

People in this country are so programmed to the insurance industry liability mindset, that we have a hard time seeing common sense solutions.

Posted by: flipb Oct 20 2011, 07:22 PM

A quick web search turned up this similar story.

http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-competition/24162-brake-failure-watkins-glen-race-cause-abs-control-unit.html

Rather than alter the system, could she achieve the same effect if you subtly recommended that she pull the ABS fuse?

Posted by: carr914 Oct 20 2011, 07:24 PM

I wouldn't do it. There are Millions of Scumbag Laywers waiting for this Case

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 07:26 PM

Maybe, but the car will continually harass her that the ABS is not functional.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 20 2011, 07:27 PM

ALL lawyers are scumbags. Right up to the time you really need one.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 20 2011, 07:32 PM

I wouldn't do it. Why stick your neck out modifying a stock break system. It seems you have enough work on your plate without this. Think of it in aviation terms. What happens when you modify an existing design on your airplane without authorization from the manufacturer or our friends at the FAA? Would Porsche authorize this mod.?

Posted by: carr914 Oct 20 2011, 07:35 PM

My Ex is a Lawyer & a Judge - I sure didn't need that !

Posted by: mepstein Oct 20 2011, 07:52 PM

Don't lots of people modify their brake system by changing calipers, rotors, master cylinders for bigger, different, ect? Aren't you making her brake system functional since it isn't working now? Don't many of us change and modify all kinds of aspects of our cars from the way Porsche origionally designed? Brakes, suspension, fiberglass bumpers, 240+hp engines, V8 engines, ect. I don't think you are doing anything unethical if the customer understands what you are doing.

That being said, I'm sure there are lawyers who could rip you one if things went bad. That's just the world we live in.

Posted by: Joe Owensby Oct 20 2011, 07:56 PM

I probably would not do it. Although it is a low probability, just think how you would feel if she or some later owner ended up getting hurt by skidding off the road or something that could have perhaps been averted if the ABS brakes had worked properly. I would not want to worry about that, even if she agreed to accept the liability. If it were for a race car or something like that this would not be an issue since people know they are assuming responsibility for their actions. However, for a general passenger car, I am not sure. Just my opinion, not a recommendation. JoeO

Posted by: 76-914 Oct 20 2011, 08:00 PM

I got to hang with Elliot on this one. Don't do it Joe.

Posted by: underthetire Oct 20 2011, 08:02 PM

Just a question, cant you get a abs unit from the wreckers?

Posted by: bigkensteele Oct 20 2011, 08:10 PM

I would advise her to have a lawyer send a letter to PCNA describing the problem and let them know that a law suit and press releases will be the next course of action if they fail to inspect her car and determine the problem. After what happened to Toyota, I doubt that they would want anything to do with even a rumor of failing brakes.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 08:19 PM

Yes. That's another possibility.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 20 2011, 08:33 PM

Exactamundo. This is a Porsche problem. Let them deal with it. They got lots more lawyers than you do.

Posted by: bigkensteele Oct 20 2011, 08:41 PM

I should expand on this and say that a modern car should not suffer catastrophic brake failure and not even leave a code. If it does, it would seem that there is a serious design flaw. This is not your baby - it is Porsche's. They should be given the "opportunity" to correct the problem and potentially save lives before you should put your reputation, business, and entire life-savings on the line to "fix" the problem by disabling a safety system. No way in the world should you take on this issue alone.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 08:45 PM

These are all good perspectives, but have you ever tried to get Porsche to do something like this? Even if it had stored codes, the car is a 2000 model with 140k miles.

They are going to say "We can fix that for $4000. It needs a new ABS module. DO NOT drive it until it's fixed at a FACTORY service center."

This car has not been under warranty for many years. Porsche does not offer lifetime warranties on safety items. If your $2000 airbag throws a code out of warranty, it's your bill to pay.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 20 2011, 08:47 PM

Direct her to the 914World.com used car classifeds. She needs a 914.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 08:52 PM

Her car is worth about $7k if it didn't have the brake problem. As it sits, she's not getting a very nice 914 in trade.

Posted by: Woody Oct 20 2011, 08:54 PM

Are you sure the pedal is going to the floor or is she perhaps maybe loosing the booster? I've seen the boosters fill with water and work intermittently. Never heard of a intermittent soft pedal.

Posted by: bigkensteele Oct 20 2011, 09:00 PM

I think that you might have answered your own question, which is probably why you posted this in the first place.

I understand that you want to do her a favor, but it is not worth putting YOUR neck out there. She might not like shelling out 4 large to keep her car on the road, but you know that you don't want to disable here ABS either. You seem to be one hell of a nice guy, but sometimes a nice guy has to tell a customer "You really need to have this fixed properly, and it is going to be expensive".

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 09:01 PM

I've never seen anything like this before either. It's happened twice in 11 years and 140k miles. She's the only witness. The last time it happened, she almost crashed the car. I have to take her at her word.

I did drive the car today and forced the ABS to function twice. It worked and the pedal was totally firm.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 09:15 PM

Would you be saying the same thing if the car in question was a 1988 944? Because that car is so far out of warranty, probably not. The point I'm making is that this car is no more Porsche's responsibility than a 1971 914.

If a 914 had a brake failure, would anyone say "take it to Porsche. It's a safety issue that's their problem." Of course not.

This Boxster is 11. I think about it no differently than a 914 in these terms.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 20 2011, 09:22 PM

Big reds, lose the abs

Posted by: edwin Oct 20 2011, 09:29 PM

Sounds to me that if the last time she had a failure she locked the brakes which caused her to spin.
So to remove the abs altogether seems to make no sense given she isnt able to drive and not lock the brakes other times.
I would look at it as how confident are you in the customers ability to deal with it.
Sounds to me like she isnt able to safely drive the car without abs.
my 2c
Edwin

Posted by: bigkensteele Oct 20 2011, 09:31 PM

I agree with you on all points if you know without question that disabling the ABS will correct the issue. If it is only an educated guess, then I stand by my comments.

To really equate this to your 71 914 example, you would be disabling the second circuit on the 914 master cylinder, and I know that you wouldn't do that. As far as the 944 goes, if I owned a shop, the only way I would disable the ABS would be if the customer agreed that the car would be for track-use only.

Trust me, I am not trying to argue with you. I only want you to be in business for a long time. This lady might be a great person, but you don't know about her heirs. And God forbid, if she cashes all her chips in on brake failure in her Boxster, you will be hearing from lawyers of said heirs.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 20 2011, 09:33 PM

That's not what happened. She was braking in traffic, the pedal went to the floor and produced no reduction in speed, she pointed the car into the grass on the side of the road very quickly and spun around.

Posted by: GeorgeRud Oct 20 2011, 10:04 PM

It's problems like this that make me appreciate my 914-6 all the more. Sometimes simple is better in my mind.

It seems that modern cars are considered disposable since they are not repairable after a few years without spending more than they are worth.

Posted by: r_towle Oct 20 2011, 10:27 PM

Ethically you should do what is right for the customer, and advise her of the risks of each choice.
Legally...you could lose your business and house if you don't get a waiver from her.

Rich

Posted by: monkeyboy Oct 20 2011, 10:33 PM

I don't think a waiver would do very well in court if she killed someone with her modified brakes. They would still come after you.

I think as a shop, you have to walk away from this one unless she wants to fix it right.

Posted by: bandjoey Oct 20 2011, 10:34 PM

Can u prove it's the ABS or could it B possibly something else?

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 20 2011, 10:45 PM

Don't do it even if she signs a release. The person she crashes into did not sign the release. It's back on your shoulders. If your going to have a long career in the automotive field you need to reserve the right to say no when it's important.

Sometimes shit costs money. If she loves the car she'll either pay for the work or she will save up and pay for the work. Either way she'll pay.

An old retired defense attorney friend had a great saying he would use all the time.

People would give him sob stories all the time trying to defend them for free or discount his fees. He'd say, "Who's got the problem?" "Don't make someone elses problem yours." Then when she's a repete customer how do you charge her. Your her free mechanic.

Posted by: rohar Oct 20 2011, 11:06 PM

Legal is the most base form of ethical. If it's not legal in EVERY way, it's not ethical at all. Waivers are just a cop out on legal. Do it right or don't do it at all.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 21 2011, 12:06 AM

I'd be worried that the design of the braking system relies on the ABS to function when at the limit braking is needed. A car with a multi-channel ABS system, for instance, may have some rear brake bias in the system and rely on ABS to keep the rear brakes from locking.

Too many worries. And the ABS module might not be the problem at all. It'd be even worse to disable that and then have the original problem recur!

--DD

Posted by: Mikey914 Oct 21 2011, 12:27 AM

Sounds like a sensor issue. It would not thow a code as it it working as designed. There is a short (probably in the front) the sensor indicates that a wheel has stopped moving and releases pressure to the brake system. Pretty much what happened. Maybe you can find the smoking gun. If the ABS system "failed" it should throw a code as most have some type of self diagnostic that will trip the light. Not that it couldn't fail, but not as likely as a short.

Hopefully an easy not too expensive fix. Other than that you can suggest the client could pull the fuse on thier own, knowing that it will dissable the ABS, but you would have to advise her that while is solves one problem it could create a greater one, and it's her decision.

You may want to help, but as a professional you can't take on the liability.

Posted by: Van914 Oct 21 2011, 02:44 AM

If you look you will find problems reported just like this in Caymans and new 911's used at the track. Pedal goes to the floor then comes back.

Van914

Posted by: mepstein Oct 21 2011, 03:59 AM

Maybe the answer is to sell the car to a track guy or part it and move on.

Posted by: DBCooper Oct 21 2011, 06:14 AM

This is the best answer. The question was about ethics but most answers have been about about liability, something totally different. To answer the original question about ethics you can't let the lady drive that car the way it is now, you need to fix it. Explain the situation to her, let her both make the decision and accept the consequences. That's no different that what doctors do in difficult situations, counsel the patient, explain the alternatives and consequences, make recommendations, then let the patient decide. And she signs the waiver.

As observation this is already an old car and all old cars get modified, if for no other reason than aftermarket parts are cheaper than OEM. Anyone here using OEM brake pads? Anti-lock brakes may be a safety feature when they work, but when they don't they're dangerous. Register the complaint with the NTSB (www.nhtsa.gov) and see what they have to say, or have the owner give them a call.

Were Boxter's also sold without ABS? If so you're just removing an option. As a parallel BMW motorcycles came with ABS as an option since the early 90's. Most of those units don't work any more, are hugely expensive to fix, and are regularly disabled and removed by mechanics and by owners. Give your local BMW motorcycle dealer a call, see what they do. It might give you some professional guidance about handling the liability.

Posted by: MoveQik Oct 21 2011, 06:56 AM

I dunno Joe....if it were me, I would fix it right or not at all. I don't see a good reason to be the guy she is referring to when she says, "Right before I got in the accident this guy modified my brakes. Maybe that is why I didn't stop in time."

Even if the brakes work perfectly after you bypass the ABS, the fact that you modified them leaves your chin out if she is in an accident for any reason. If you were a shade tree mechanic trying to help a friend...MAYBE. But as a mechanic building up a reputable shop, no. I know she is on a teacher's budget and $4k is certainly a big bill for anyone...but perhaps a Porsche is not the right car for her if she isn't willing or can't spend the money to fix it right.

Posted by: tomeric914 Oct 21 2011, 07:02 AM

My ex had the same issue with her non-ABS 1989 Dodge Daytona that did get her into an accident. I thought she was nuts until I drove the car and had the same thing happen to me.

In my ex's case, the car had more than 100k miles on it. I believe the master cylinder was worn just enough that it would bypass fluid if the brakes were applied in a certain manner. There was no evidence of external leakage because it would just leak into the booster and not get out AND the amount of fluid leaked was minimal.

I replaced the master cylinder and the problem never came back.

Posted by: BajaXJ92 Oct 21 2011, 07:03 AM

FINALLY someone said it.

Posted by: Richard Casto Oct 21 2011, 07:09 AM

Someone may have mentioned this, but you may bypass the ABS and there still may be some other hidden problem that could still cause brake failure and an accident.

I say either find the problem and fix it or say "I can't find the problem and think its unwise to disable the ABS in the hopes that it will fix the problem".

Richard

Posted by: SLITS Oct 21 2011, 07:15 AM

Before you disable the ABS System, spend time on the net researching. In a few minutes, I was able to determine that this problem and others with ABS spans a lot of auto manufacturers. What reader was used to try and see if codes were present? Several posts indicate that only the manufacturers' readers pick up codes; Flaps readers won't.

While you are a raving asshole, I wouldn't want you to get pinned for an accident or death.

If you do decide to proceed, will you sleep well knowing that it could possibly lead to the above? It's all about how you feel, not her.

And in the end, would you drive the car on a daily basis, assured that it wouldn't happen again?

Oh well ... more coffee!

Posted by: carr914 Oct 21 2011, 07:25 AM

Good Idea !

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 21 2011, 08:01 AM

I love my shop. i enjoy helping my customers to enjoy their cars as much as I enjoy mine.
ethically you are responsible of informing her options and letting her decide. if its not a race car, there is really only ONE option.
before I turn her away, I would check the sensors for cable damage probably in the wheel well area before it goes up into the car. also check the magnet pick up and the tooth wheel. if there is no smoking gun, I would decline to repair it. AND I would only release the car to a tow truck or push it on to the street if she insists on driving it. as it stands right now, the car must be condemned as undrivable. the inspection invoice should state this clearly.
sometimes doing the right thing is tough love.
if she drives that out of your shop you might as well stand in the middle of I-95, pull your pants to your ankles and bend over

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 21 2011, 08:03 AM

PS. I have declined to repair several cars. I have also told 2 customers that I can only release the car to a tow truck due to safety issues.

Posted by: Spoke Oct 21 2011, 08:22 AM

In PA, a vehicle is not required to have ABS to pass the yearly automotive inspection.

Thus it is not a required function like brakes and headlights.

A friend just bought a 2009 Chevy Impala that did not come with ABS. ABS was an extra option.

I don't see how disabling or not repairing ABS would lead to any legitimate litigation. Unless of course there was some deception on the part of the mechanic or seller.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 21 2011, 05:51 PM

Then you need to get your eyes checked.

If the car's braking system was designed with ABS, disabling the ABS is impairing the function of the brakes. If it turns out this did not fix the original problem, the owner plows into the back of someone. At which point he/she may say "gee, Joe said disabling the ABS would fix this" to the insurance company. And they will hear "Joe impaired the function of the braking system so we don't have to pay."

Guess how many insurance companies are "reasonable easygoing guys" when money is on the line? Go ahead, guess!

--DD

Posted by: mepstein Oct 21 2011, 07:14 PM

All this just begs the question....Is she hot?

Posted by: carr914 Oct 21 2011, 07:23 PM

Posted by: bigkensteele Oct 21 2011, 11:26 PM

Good call! I think that we have now found the root-cause as to why this obvious question begs an answer from the questioner that defies logic.

Dude, this is an opportunity! Tell her that you can't possibly allow her to drive this car until you find the problem. Provide her a loaner if you have one, and then fix it right, eat up as much of the cost as you can, and let her know what a favor you did her. If she really loves that Boxster, she is really gonna love you for saving her ride. From there, who knows...

Posted by: Series9 Oct 22 2011, 08:32 AM

That's awesome. Unfortunately, I haven't met her in person. The car was delivered via tow truck. From the seat position, she's probably not a fatty.

As for the code reader, I have a Durametric system, so I can see the factory codes in the ABS. There are none.

I don't think this issue is parallel to the Cayman track car issue because this happens with mild braking and relatively cold rotors.

986s were never delivered without ABS.

I really appreciate all the opinions here. You have all been very helpful.


Here's to you.

Posted by: patssle Oct 22 2011, 08:43 AM

A reputable classic-Porsche shop here in Texas told me to buy a Boxster instead when I asked about 914/6 conversions. Hah...

My fuel pump broke last week when I pulled the car out of its Texas summer storage. I had a new one installed in less than an hour for $60. And I had never done that before. Good luck achieving that price and time points on a newer car!

Posted by: Series9 Oct 22 2011, 08:52 AM

Oh my God! It FINALY happened!

I've been promoted from Major to Raving!! I was really beginning to think it would never happen.


I would like to thank all those who stood by me all these years as a Major. It's only through your continued support that I have been able to achieve the elite rank of Raving.

Thank you, thank you sooooo much.

Posted by: kg6dxn Oct 22 2011, 10:44 AM

I had an RV with a brake problem. If you turned the wheel all the way left to lock, the brake hose would get hung up and pull on the calliper. When this happened the piston would be forced to the bottom. If you tried to stop after that, pedal to the floor and no brakes until it pumped back up. Only happened a couple times but very scary.

Posted by: majkos Oct 22 2011, 11:09 AM

I've been promoted from Major to Raving!!



That would explains all the nasty PM I get for Major

I'm Maj.KOS (Major Chaos)

OK Hijack over

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 22 2011, 09:41 PM

i was told im not nice. is that like a private?

Posted by: Woody Oct 25 2011, 06:50 PM

I have my doubts that its the abs unit. I would be hesitant to do any work without being able to duplicate the problem and complete a thorough diagnosis. I would really investigate the master cylinder. Pull it and see if there is any residual fluid where it goes into the booster. Just because it was replaced previously doesn't mean its a good part. Good luck and cover your ass.

Posted by: SLITS Oct 25 2011, 07:51 PM

Yes Grasshopper, you are a Private. To achieve the final level of promotion one must study the four aspects of Abrasive. Work on it diligently.


Tada ..... drum roll .....

And Joe,

You are sooooooooo welcome!

Posted by: 9146986 Oct 25 2011, 08:29 PM

You want advice? Walk away. No good deed goes unpunished. I don't know why, but many times it really is true. I'm no lawyer, but my step father (RIP) was and that would be his advice, the little fee you'll net is not worth the exposure to risk. It's your skin though, and I don't have your moccasins to check out.

Posted by: mark21742 Oct 26 2011, 05:04 AM

Funny thing is after reading ghost the other day I was driving my mother's 2002 olds Alero and it did the exact same thing....made lots of growning, dash lights flashed, dinger chimed, but didn't hardly slow down at all.....pulled into a store parking lot and popped the ABS fuse out and its been working great ever since......but I would never do this to s customers car....too much liability.