Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 03:41 PM

Over the yhears there has been alot of threads about how much to expect for pint jobs. I have always chimed in that it all depends on what you want in to end. Since starting my own shop, this 930 was the first over restored- " rust free " job I have done. The other nicer jobs all had a fair amount of rust repair, custom work, or are still not finished. I thought this would be a good opportunuiy to show what your money gets. While I say this car was rust free, you weill se some pics where I had some small patch work to do. These pics also illustrate a rust area on 911's that most of the time can't be seen without removing the fenders.

This car came to me as a 3 owner car, that has spent most of its life garaged. The current owner stripped 95% of the paint himself, pulled all of the glass out, and removed the bumpers, the rest was up to me.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 03:49 PM

The first job was to remove the remaning panels, diagnose any rust or damged areas and d/a/ the whole car to good clean metal. Int he first pic you can see where I have sanded vs. the strip job the owner had done. the rusty spots are where the fenders meet up to the cowel. This is a problem area due to the rain water being channeld directly to that spot, and after a few years the factory seam seler cracks open on the top side. On the insides of the fenders, there is a VERY heavy layer of undercoating that typically does NOT break loose. Thus preventing the trapped water from escaping


Attached image(s)

Posted by: URY914 Oct 23 2011, 03:51 PM

What year?

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 03:58 PM

Once the whole car has been sanded down, and rust spots sand blasted clean it gets a coat of etch primer and a coat of sealer. I do this BEFORE fixing the two rusty spots for a couple of reasons. I want the metal coated before it has time to flash rust, and these spots are small enough that the repairs won;t affect the rest of the car


Attached image(s)

Posted by: swood Oct 23 2011, 04:00 PM

I'm going to like this thread

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:05 PM

Everthing gets guide coated and blocked. Imperfections get bumped and mudded, areas that get broken through to bare metal get re-etched and sealed. then the whole car gets a couple coats of high build primer, followed by another guide coat for the next blocking operation


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:12 PM

Now that the car has a couple good coats of primer I went back and repaired the rust spots at the fnders, and fixed the cracks in the bottoms of the fenders


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:20 PM

After giving things a couple weeks to get nice and setup, I then went back and hard blocked the car for the second time, this time with a finer grit. It is at this point that hte " OVER-restoring " begins. There are spots on all cars that from the factory are less than perfect. On 911's the top edge of the hood has a significant dip that I smoothed out, the back of the rear 1/4 windows has a dip, and all four corners of the roof where it is joined are ripply. In addition, the radius from the flares to the fender bodies are not quite perfect so they get a little work too. FYI On the early 930's like this one, the flares are welded on, not stamped as part of the fender.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 23 2011, 04:24 PM

Thats not a 914 Maybe you should do a thread on a 914?

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:26 PM

Next comes ANOTHER coat of primer and guide coat. All these subsequent coats of primer are more to fill in scratches from the sanding and to isolate the filler spots. IOn nicer jobs like this I let the car sit for a minimun of 4 weeks after each coat of primer to let it fully cure. The actual build thickness is not that great in the end because the majority of the primer ends up getting sanded off up to this point


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:27 PM

b-low me

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:33 PM

Prior to starting the wetsanding, I flip over the doors, hood and engine lidprep and tape them off, and shoot the color and clear. They will then sit for several weeks while both the primer on the outside, and the color on the inside setup. In the mantime, I sanded the insides and reblacked them. My camera was f-ed so I dodn;t get pics of the blacking.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:37 PM

whuile all that stuff sits, the lower trim panels all get prepped and coated with factory looking rock guard, then immediately get primed and painted out.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:43 PM

then after a whole lot of wet sanding we get to this point


Attached image(s)

Posted by: MDG Oct 23 2011, 04:51 PM

Excellent!

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 23 2011, 04:53 PM

You need to show this to Plasket's wife She would force him to get his car done, then.

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 04:54 PM

After thjis I blacked out ALL of the trim and door handles, and window frames. those pics are trapped on my camera that finally took a dump last week I'm going to see if I can get them off onelast time. My card is literally glued into the camera from when some laquer thinner splashed on it. IT will onyl power up for a minnute or two now, so I may have enough time to get them off.

In the meantime I borrowed my parents camera to get the last of the pics this week.

And finally after a little wet sand and buffing job


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: watsonrx13 Oct 23 2011, 05:01 PM

Scotty thanks for showing us the complete process. How long did it take from the time you received the stipped car until the last photo?

--- Rob

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 05:02 PM

So long story short, time and materials, this is what 12,000.00 will get you. I don;t have my time log right here, but the materials were around 2000.00. the rest is actual labor to get to this point.

Keep in mind this is near top of the line paint job. It could have been done even further, but at this point it is more than the owner wanted. I have done some work on a 356 speedster he has, and he told me he didn't want the 930 as nice as the 356 which IMO is about a 100% perfect. I'd say his 930 is about 90% there.

Posted by: MDG Oct 23 2011, 05:04 PM

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Money shot. Freakin' amazing!

Show off.

Posted by: scotty b Oct 23 2011, 05:05 PM

I've had the car for about a year, but like I said a LOT of that time it sat and dried. Actual hours, I have close to 200 in it IIRC.

I've pretty much killed the battery in my laptop with this post so I probably won't be answering any questions tonight I'll check back in tomorrow morning

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Oct 23 2011, 06:33 PM

Scotty,

Beautiful workmanship, Wow I am impressed. If I did the math correctly your hourly rate is $50.00 per hr. You earn your paycheck and your worth more than a Porsche technician makeing $100.00 per hr.

Tom

Posted by: uncle smokey Oct 23 2011, 06:46 PM

Scotty, you do some fantastic work.

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 23 2011, 06:50 PM

Nice write up. Nice work!

Posted by: Randal Oct 23 2011, 07:03 PM

Absolutely beautiful. So nice and so much work.

What I don't get is how you can color sand all those inside parts and never go through the clear.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 23 2011, 07:11 PM

He needs to charge more.

Posted by: BajaXJ92 Oct 23 2011, 08:53 PM

Roland, being the super nice guy that he is, is getting a very nice car.

These pics do absolutely no justice for anybody who hasn't been lucky enough to see this car, as well as Scott's work in person.

In regards to Scott's "labor rate", your estimate is FAR off. While his time may or may not have net him a lower rate, I merely attribute that to the fact that his background is filled with doing higher end work, and the absolute fact that he has NO idea how to do a half-ass job. Clearly he aims higher than customers expectations.

Posted by: tdgray Oct 24 2011, 08:48 AM

Excellent write up Scotty... this should be required reading for all of the weekend warrior DIY guys that think you can just strip a car and send it off to the body shop for $2000 and get a show quality paint job.

Great job... very reasonable rate indeed

Posted by: FourBlades Oct 24 2011, 09:23 AM

Thanks for sharing this. Your threads are some of the most educational on here
and help to make this place so useful. Your work is greatly appreciated.

John

Posted by: Chris H. Oct 24 2011, 09:27 AM

Incredible job Scotty. With all the work you put in $12k sounds like a steal. Never seen silver shine like that in a photo.

Posted by: scotty b Oct 24 2011, 05:45 PM

Thanks for all the complements guys.

Todd that is exactly why I made this thread. I see all to regularly on this board and others, how people expect so much for so little. The Am. car guys seem to be the worst about that.
Shows like Overhaulin are intertaining, but give the average guy the wrong idea about building a proper car. I know 2 people that have been on those builds, and what you don't see is that there is an average of 60-70 people working all day and all night on that car to get it done in 7 days. One of the guys I know, said he alone put in over 100 hours that week
In my years of doing this work I have come to realize the only people that understand what it takes to get a car to this point are the guys that do it for a living, and the DIY'ers that have actually tried it for themself. I have had more than one car come in where the owner just got disgusted with their own work, or realized they got in over their head. That to me is the best kind of customer, because they tried to do it and realize what it takes.

Posted by: smontanaro Oct 24 2011, 05:54 PM

Scotty, great thread. (Someone please add it to the classic forum.)

I have a question. You indicated that much of the time during restoration the car is actually sitting while the paint dries. That obviously isn't how it happens at the factory. When you buy a new car is the paint still drying or is the paint formulation different so it dries faster? Or do you not bake the paint?

Skip

Posted by: boogie_man Oct 24 2011, 06:00 PM

Boy ain't that the truth. I'm in the bodyshop business and hear it all the time
from the normal fender benders to "how much to repaint my 69 Chevy"??

ScottB...(my name too lol) you did it the absolute right way no question as that
is at least the going rate at 12k...at least !!! And to the haters...I'm glad he
showed his work even though it wasn't one of your own....thought the 911 owners
were snobs (I have one of those too) can't we all just get along?? Let's see some
more of that awesome work dude

Posted by: scotty b Oct 24 2011, 06:11 PM

The reason I let it sit and the factory didn't is mainly due to the soak back. As the bondo, and more importantly the primers dry, they shrink. As they shrink they will settle into the sand scratches in the previous layer more and more. If you look at a restoration job that was done in a short amount of time ( 2-3 months) it may look great the day it leaves the shop, but 6 months down the road, you will start to see san scratches showing up. IF the car was done well, but quickly, the scratches will not be that noticable during a normal veiwing, but under closer inspection you will see them.

This particular silver has almost no pigment, which makes it very sensitive to scratches in the body work or primers. Normaly silvers have pigment added so they cover better, but the Porsche silver is almost all flake which also makes it a bitch to lay out right

Posted by: mepstein Oct 24 2011, 07:01 PM

I think I remember Gint's 914-6 restoration thread that after the painted shell sat for some time, he took it back to the shop and they refinished some spots that shrunk. Not new paint but maybe some polishing?

I just read that the ovens are used to speed along the drying process. Not actually make the paint harder than normal drying (like I previously thought). Painting at a production level is done as fast as possible.

I can't wait to see what Scott does with my car.

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 24 2011, 07:46 PM

I can not wait to see my car when it is finished. It will be well worth the wait Its already better than its predecessor.

Posted by: zymurgist Oct 24 2011, 09:00 PM

Beautiful job. I saw it in person at Scotty's party and it really is as nice as it looks.

Posted by: TargaToy Oct 24 2011, 09:17 PM

Can you show some shots sometime of how you re-did the seam sealer on the removed fenders once reinstalled (and any other parts of the body) and how you treated the insides of the fenders?

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Oct 24 2011, 09:20 PM

Scotty had asked me why I would ship my car all the way over there. After reading earlier threads of his and seeing this latest, also hearing members opinions on his work, why not? Great work sir! Paint and bodywork is a art.

Posted by: 9146986 Oct 24 2011, 09:29 PM

Very good work indeed! I'd love to see one of those "we restored this car in a week" jobs a year later, cause it won't look anything like this!!

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Oct 24 2011, 09:31 PM

a new car does not have the 30 years of punishment that Scotty has worked out of this one. perfect, straight, clean, new metal does not require all the steps in between required to turn back the hands of time

did that include reassembly?

Posted by: mikea100 Oct 26 2011, 05:31 AM

Scotty, thanks for sharing your work, it is state of the art. Can you please post what materials you use, like brand and type of primers, sealers, sand paper grit etc.

Posted by: scotty b Oct 26 2011, 06:14 AM

Paint is all PPG Deltron on this car and 2002 clear. I used to use Spies Hecker but due to a change of hands with the local distributor the managers left and I followed them. FWIW that shop is on the verge of shutting down, the managers took 90% of the customers with them. Sometimes the people ARE the most important part of a business My loyalty was with my friends more than the paint. PPG has been just as good a product, color match is just as good, there is just a learning curve when switching brands.

Sandpaper is whatever I can get the best deal on up to 180 grit. Usually either 3M or Klingspor. Everything from 320 up to 2000 grit is all 3M

Buffing compounds are a dime a dozen, I use 3M because I get good resuilts from it, it is reasonably priced, and damn near every supplier keeps it in stock.

Posted by: andys Oct 26 2011, 01:50 PM

+ to everything scottyb said.

Some of you know that I prepped and painted my 914, and I can tell you I won't do another. Tons of work along with the risk of not getting something quite right, which is the same as saying it's best left to the professional. There's value in that $12K that may not be immediately obvious at first glance, but believe me it's there.

BTW, nice job on the 930!

Andys

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 26 2011, 02:25 PM

Very, very impressed. And, having just gone through this, $12k sounds like good value to me. Very good value.

pete

Posted by: flipb Oct 26 2011, 02:43 PM

It's pretty amazing to scroll through this thread and see the Before & After photos. I can only imagine what it's like to drive a 914 that looks and feels brand new.

Still, the cost of that paint job is about the total amount I have into my 914 in 2+ years of ownership (purchase price plus a lot of stuff that needed fixing). Totally understand why it costs what it does, and see the value... but I would need my money tree to start bearing lots of fruit before I could take that plunge. Maybe someday...

Posted by: mepstein Oct 26 2011, 02:48 PM

I'm pretty sure Scott can do paint for less than 12K and still make it look great. As you get close to perfect, the costs go up quickly.

Posted by: Rav914 Oct 26 2011, 04:44 PM

And that would be me. I spent more than a few months painting my car. It was my first and most likely my only attempt. Many many hours and I'm a little disgusted. The mistakes make me wince but at least I don't have to worry about dings or rock chips. When I get the scratch together and just can't stand it any more, a $12K+ check will be easy money to spend. Nice work Scotty, I'm only a little jealous.

It may look good in this picture but it's no where even close to that turbo.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 26 2011, 06:09 PM

Absolutely. That is why I made certian to state that this car was very much over-restored. The 914 in this post had hell hole repair, previous damage repair on the left 1/4 and basic bodywork for somewhere around 8000.00. Obviously it is no where near the level of the 930, and the paint was the cheapest single stage I will willingly put on a car and stand behind for some amount of time ( there is cheaper but I won't touch it )


Attached image(s)

Posted by: plas76targa Oct 27 2011, 05:59 AM

I thought the same thing when i first saw this last night. I told K she'll have to see this. update: i have a coil in route from Parts Heaven. Maybe the 911 will start this weekend. okay back to Scottie's thread. The 911 WILL be in your shop someday soon!

Posted by: rudedude Oct 27 2011, 07:03 AM

I wish I'd had you do my 911. I'd been glad to pay you so little for sch nice work!
Jule

Posted by: scotty b Oct 27 2011, 12:06 PM

Posted by: r_towle Oct 27 2011, 12:11 PM

with todays paint, do you still feel the need to wait between steps?

Given you had no timelag for money or getting paid...
And you had a heated booth....

Would it still take such a long time between coats to do it "right"?

Rich

Posted by: scotty b Oct 27 2011, 12:20 PM

Yes. I don't care how "modern" paint gets. It still needs time for the solvents to completely evaporate and setup to prevent soakback. Go to a local show and look really close at the paint jobs. I can gaurantee, you'll see several with scratches under the finish. Better yet, paint your car, wet sand and buff it nice and slick, let it sit for 3-4 weeks, THEN throw a car cover on it and leave it on there for a week +, then take it off and see what happens.

A heated booth only speeds up the initial flash and setup period. Paint continues to setup and out gas for weeks after the job has left. I tell people not to wax or cover a car for a MINIMUM of 6 weeks

Posted by: r_towle Oct 27 2011, 12:55 PM

That would never be an issue with me...haha

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 27 2011, 05:57 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: kwales Oct 27 2011, 06:29 PM

Purdy work Scotty!

I have only one question: With a rusty car like the 914, do you ever wake up at night and remember that after you put on the color coat, you forgot to fix a couple of rusty sections that were hidden under the primer?

That's exactly what I would do...

Ken

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 27 2011, 07:02 PM

He doesnt forget anything. He takes his................time........and gets it all. Even the new stuff that forms while he is waiting

I am joking, of course.

Posted by: hwgunner Oct 27 2011, 07:07 PM

Great write up. Just wish I could do it to my car. I am having a hard enogh time getting it on the road, let alone painted.

jonathan

Posted by: scotty b Oct 27 2011, 07:11 PM

I'm putting you on ignore

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 27 2011, 07:18 PM

Dont hate the player, Baby. Hate the game

Dont fight your feelings.

Posted by: smontanaro Jan 24 2012, 05:10 PM

Scotty,

A follow-up question regarding galvanized bodies such as the 930... Does the sanding/media blasting damage the galvanizing? What precautions do you have to take to keep it intact?

Thx,

Skip

Posted by: dgw Jan 24 2012, 07:34 PM

I was wondering the same thing about galvanized bodies as I was looking through this thread.

I enjoyed the thread as I have a 77 930 that needs a paint job. Some PO seriously farked the paint. I'm not sending it across country though, it sounds like Scotty has plenty of business. Plus I may not even paint it, the paint is so bad I don't mind parking it places I would never consider parking other Porsche's.

Thanks Scotty for taking the time to photograph the project and post the pictures.

Posted by: scotty b Jan 24 2012, 07:45 PM

I never blasted galvanized bodies. I can tell you the sanding process does remove a lot of the surface galvanizing, but not all, as it seems that the galvanizing process embeds in the metal to some extent. I do however use a etching primer on the bare metal which IMHO is almost as good as galvanizing. I have a Jeep hood I stripped about 8 years ago and have nothing on it but etch primer. It has lived outdoors uncoverd for all this time in the mid-atlantic weather and has not started surface rusting anywhere except where it has been scratched.

Posted by: BajaXJ92 Jan 25 2012, 07:54 AM

I'm quoting myself, as some of you may never be lucky enough to have Scott do work on your vehicles and realize that he really does go above and beyond any expectations you may have. I mean, he's not gonna cook you dinner, take you on windy walks or buy you flowers, but I can promise you that as soon as your car enters his shop, he's going to treat it like he owns it.

His passion for cars is beyond ridiculous, almost scary at times, but that reflects in every detail of his work.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 25 2012, 08:45 AM

Am car guys and specially hot rodders around here place little value on the endless hours it takes to bring a car to this level at the shop. When these guys build most of the car they think they are as good as the career tech. They want to be your buddy and not your customer. I cringed when I would hear a hot rodder say..."Hey while your at it"... Actually one of the reasons I drifted away from building muscle cars and street rods 20 years ago and started playing with BMW's.

There is no substitute for attension to detail. Either you have what it takes and see and feel the imperfections or you don't. Nice dedication to your craft Scotty.

Posted by: scotty b Jan 25 2012, 09:02 AM

Thanks Rick, that means alot coming from you As far as the hot rod guys go, I think it's all about the individual. I have some rod guys I have been dealing with lately and they all seem to get it. Now these are guys that have been into rods and customs their whole life and lknow what ut takes. My experience has been the " new gen " of rodders don't. They are the ones that got into the hobby since the creation of Am Rodder, Am chopper, Overhaulin etc . and really have no clue what it really takes. I call them the " one color and shiney " crowd.

Posted by: bulitt Jan 25 2012, 09:21 AM

Scotty- Thanks for the advice on the Deltron, Its good stuff. Sprayed my primer a month ago and have been watching little holes and ridges appear just like you stated.
This paint is not cheap, one qt. of primer plus cat cost 112$ Paint and supplies will easily be 600$ before I am done. This just for flares.

Posted by: gothspeed Jan 25 2012, 11:25 AM

Great thread, great info and great pics!!!

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jan 25 2012, 11:50 AM

Fantastic work. I think if I had spent 12K I'd be afraid to drive the car anywhere for fear of a scratch, dent or worse. I'd be wringing my hands after leaving it in a crowded parking lot. This car is obviously not a daily driver (or is it). Is this to be a show car or maybe just a weekender? Scotty, how difficult is it to repair a paint job like this one that has been dented, scratched etc. It's good to see there are still craftsmen around.
Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 25 2012, 12:19 PM

Bodywork on cars is a real art. I can do it, but I am very slow, and I don't have that artistic touch that really good paint and body professionals have. The attention to detail by the artiste is something to be admired. From what I have seen of Scotty's work, I would not hesitate to take my car to him.

Elliot... I paid 12K for the paint and body on my 914, and I drive it anywhere. If you don't drive it, it's not a car, it is some very expensive art that you keep in the garage.

Posted by: porsche_dreamer Jan 25 2012, 01:20 PM

Hey Scotty, just out of curiosity have you used any of ppg's waterborne stuff yet? I have been using sherwin williams for a little while now, and was just wanting to know what you thought of it if so.?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 25 2012, 04:00 PM

I can promise you that you would never want me to treat your car as if I owned it!

...I'll never be able to do what Scotty does. Especially in the Sandbox.

--DD

Posted by: scotty b Jan 25 2012, 04:38 PM

NO I haven't I have only used waterborne once. I am avoiding it until I HAVE to use it. FWIW from what I am hearing PPG's is one of the better ones out there. The people I know that have used it have been very happy with it and say the color match is dead on. DuPont still has yet to get theirs right but DuPont is a whole other mess of a story right now

Posted by: scotty b Jan 25 2012, 04:42 PM

The good thing about the guys I use is when they mix paint for me they save the formula. That way if I ever need to repair that same car, they can mix up new paint exctly the same as long as the pigments haven't changed which does happen. As for the actual repair it wouldn't be any different thana normal collision repair except for the level of fit and finish involved.




...I'll never be able to do what Scotty does. Especially in the Sandbox.