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Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 01:34 PM

Is there anything missing here?


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Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 01:36 PM

nuther


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Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 01:37 PM

last


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Posted by: Root_Werks Aug 18 2004, 01:41 PM

Lotso stuff:

The hard lines to the injectors.

The pressure regulator, fuel filter that keeps about 12lbs circulating to the MFI pump.

The injectors (I don't see them)

I think you have the needed linkage?

I have worked with MFI many, many times over the years. A great system once it is up and running. Warning, this looks pretty well taken appart. You will need to measure things (linkage) when assembling things. If you need any help, you know where to post!

Posted by: tdgray Aug 18 2004, 01:53 PM

Yea, A good coat of paint or stain on that deck

Sorry can't help just a smartass at heart <_<

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 18 2004, 01:53 PM

Proper air-filter with warm-up circuit might be another...

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 18 2004, 01:59 PM

All of the above. Remember, the linkage oon the throttle bodies thamselves is set up on a flow bench, so piecing it together isn't as easy as it might seem. pumps that sit are usually in need of a rebuild, or a cleaning/calibration at the very least. Need the belt, the oil lines, the drive pulley for the pump, and the engine tin to go with it. Also the bell crank, cross bar, decel components, and throttle rods. The Cap'n

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 18 2004, 02:06 PM

cogged Gilmer drive belt, electronic speed-sensor gizmo to operate the shutoff solenoid on overrun, and the linkage-actuated microswitch. i don't know that i see all the little ball/socket link rods...

the warm-up (thermostat) air comes off the left heat exchanger.

interesting - i don't think mine has that vacuum fitting on the rightside throttle body ...

Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 02:08 PM

What's the current "Pile-O-Parts" worth in your humble opinions?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 18 2004, 02:11 PM

I hate to say it but, as the Cap'n is eluding to; it may be worth more in parts at www.early911sregistry.com than it would be worth when you consider:

Piecing together parts
$1,600 pump rebuild
Issues with putting one in a teener bay
If it's a "T" MFI then you'll want the throttle bodies and stacks bored.
If they're plastic stacks then they will be a biotch to bore.

So... $1,600 for the pump. Another $1,500 to get the bodies and stacks up to snuff (ask me how I know...) You now have a very cool induction system that's a bit difficult to fit into your car (I know... it's been done before. Tell him how easy it is to time the pump.)

Although we just met... I have a deep love for you man. I'm just looking out for your wallet!

Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 02:13 PM

thanks man...I've always wanted an MFI car, was just thinking that it might be cool for the proposed E/S car.

New PMO's for the same price would to though!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 18 2004, 02:17 PM

I'm putting MFI on a 3.0 SC motor for my RS clone. They say "The Road is better than the Inn" We'll see about that... right now the "Road" has drained my bank account.

Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 02:19 PM

splain this to me Lucy!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 18 2004, 02:26 PM

The journey... getting there is most of the fun... the road is better than the inn...

Meaning we all strive for the end but it's getting there that hold the meaning. Or... building a 3.0 MFI engine is more fun than having one already built?? (Well... that shoots that philosophy!!)

Posted by: michel richard Aug 18 2004, 02:52 PM

6 throttle rods
fuel hard lines
injectors
electric fuel pump and some rubber fuel line (easy)
fuel filter console and filter itself
The thing that goes on top of the engine, with the thermotime switch and the fittings to feed oil to the injection pump.
The little plate on which the pump is supported, with a little spacer to holp the plate up off the engine.
special heater boxes with the the fitting to get heat to the thermostat
special engine tin to pass the hot air from below to above
K&N rainshields - I was not able to get the regular airbox to fit, it's turned around in a 914 but then fouls the mechanical pump. (rainshields need to be slightly modified)
a bunch of electrical stuff: the overun shutoff solenoid and a couple of other things on the 911 MFI relay board.
The thermotime switch
You need to organize a custom engine wiring harness, but that's not too tough.
I can't see the idle micro-switch on the right hand side stack (as mounted on a 914)
pump belt
I can't see if you have the toothed wheels on which the belt rides, both at the pump and on the end of the camshaft.

Anyway, that's what I can think of now.

I don't think you need a flowbench to set up the stacks, if the shafts are tight. I did with a synchrometer.

Michel Richard
914 with 2.2 E MFI

Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 02:52 PM

thanks

i'm dense sometimes

Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2004, 03:43 PM

well, IMHO, you are missing 6 Bosch electronic injectors, an electronic MAP, an air intake sensor and a TPS , oh yea and the ECU to control them all

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 18 2004, 03:54 PM

I thought he was missing a pair of Webers

Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2004, 04:11 PM

Jake would say he has 2, too many inlets

Posted by: Engman Aug 18 2004, 04:15 PM

Sooooo . What are the alternatives to the MFI on Sean's engine? There are alternatives, right?

M

Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2004, 04:25 PM

alternatives??

Webers, CIS (it works, but is boring), and of course EFI.......I'd replace the M in Mechanical Fuel Iinjection with an E......for Electronic Fuel Injection

There is someone that advertises in Excellance that has kits, no idea of the cost, but a DIY person should be able to do it for about half I would think.

Sean, is that pump good? I'd love to get a hold of one to take apart, I've worked on pumps similar to that in school (powerplant aircraft class)

Posted by: seanery Aug 18 2004, 04:27 PM

I was considering the purchase of those parts. A $1600 rebuild would be quite the turnoff. So, I think I'll pass.

Posted by: redshift Aug 18 2004, 04:28 PM

E, your fortune cookies suck.



M

Posted by: michel richard Aug 19 2004, 05:24 AM

Pumps rarely need to get rebuilt. My own little un-scientific opinion is that a lot of people have their pumps rebuilt when the problem is really elsewhere.

What you need to really inspect are the throttle bodies. The shafts have to be a really good fit and not loose at all. Throttle body rebuilding is quite expensive.

This being said, a well set-up MFI is better than any carb . . . but not as good as the modern EFI systems.

Like someone said recently on one of the boards, you can have a Timex that will hold time better than you can imagine and will cost $25, or you can have a finely made mechanical watch that will be less precise, will cost more but will embody what craftsmanship is.

It depends on what you want.

In my case, I just happened to have a complete system on a beat-up engine and thought it would be a fun project.

Michel Richard
914 2.2 E MFI

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 07:28 AM

"As-Is" MFI pumps come up all the time - i passed on an EBay one for $125 about a month ago. i agree with Michel that they rarely need it - if they've been kept in service - but do the research, get the Bosch documents and have a look inside to see what it's about. the 'speed sensor' is a rotating centrifugal balance weight gizmo. it's got a couple of rack-and-pinion mechanisms for throttle position sense and barometric compensation. the actual pump stroke is determined by a corkscrew spiral groove, and all that then controls 6 20-Bar piston pressure pumps.

as those parts wear, they'll continue to work, but they will lose accuracy. the tolerances involved in renewing them are pretty amazing.

bringing them back from storage (especially if they have not been prefilled with the special and very expensive 'calibration fluid') can be dicey, and if they've been wet - i think rust would kill one in a hurry.

i'm expecting my pump will remain in service for a good while, and that it'll be adjustable for a slight displacement increase.

but MFI pump space cams are amazing things - they contain small bumps and grooves that compensate for little flat spots in the engine operation map. you've seen the 3-D maps EFI uses? MFI sorta has that too, but it's implemented with little grooves formed into the metal. the overall shape of the space cam (fuel delivery map) has to match the engine characteristic - and that means there's a different space cam for every combination of displacement X cam Porsche made.

i'm looking forward to the day when i'll be having a 2,7RS space cam installed :-)

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 19 2004, 10:12 AM

Mine need to be rebuilt to have that said space cam installed.

Yeah, I just figured that out when I thought... "Hell, it would be much nicer driving my damn 3.0 MFI engine rather than building it"!!

Maybe Rich will be a nice guy (I'll let you look inside my pump) and build my engine for me...

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 11:20 AM

donno that the 2,7RS would be my first choice for a 3,0 -- 2,8RSR maybe...

i'd think that you'd want to see the results of the winter rebuild project on my own engine before asking me to get involved -- but we can talk :-) ...

i have neither the skills nor access to the kind of machine tools it'd take to deal with pump internals.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 19 2004, 03:30 PM

Well... let's see how you do with your engine, agreed.

Gus is getting my pump. He's seen an actual 911/77 pump and says he can do "something" for me. He mentioned that they were virtually identical (2.7RS and 3.0RS pump). Others swear there's no difference. Mark at Black Forest recommends the 2.7 cam as well stating that he's built up to 3.2 without having any fuel problems. 911/72's had a bit more compression than what I'm looking for. I would imagine their cam would be quite agressive with a bit more fuel than needed. Much more agressive cam. Keep in mind I'm using S-Cams.

I spoke with Jeff Smith who's been there for the "taking apart" of an actual 911/77. He was amazed at the simplicity of the top end. 36mm intake and exhaust ports but built on that funny 2.8 stud spacing. He stated that it's basically a 2.7RS engine built on the 2.8 case (ribs and all). I'll be keeping my ports at 36mm despite countless battering from a few in the 911 community. I think it works and works well with S-Cams.

How's that for hi-jacking the living shit out of Sean's thread?

(Sorry...)