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Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 08:18 AM

Mahle PN 503-39-90

Can someone confirm the p/n listed above or point me to a place where I can do it?

Thanks!

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 09:10 AM

THE source for Mahle in the US is ANDIAL.
but i bet the guys at EBS could help too if you didn't want to deal with ANDIAL directly.

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 09:25 AM

pics 1:


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Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 09:26 AM

pic 2


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Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 09:26 AM

pic 3


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Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 09:26 AM

pic 4


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Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 09:31 AM

those look like they could be 2,2S pistone.
my E pistons are still powering the car so i can't show you a verified E piston for comparison.

i think you'll need to know the pin height before you can conclusively determine that they're -not- 2,4S pistons - the 2,4 was a stroker 2,2 - identical 84mm bore ... but the pin heights in the pistons is different to accommodate the longer stroke...

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 11:08 AM

The seller just sent this to me:

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 11:29 AM

well - that's not helpful - there were no 2,2's in '69 ...
and all 2,4 E's and S's were MFI engines.
and all 2,2's and 2,4's were 84mm bore...

i haven't seen enough of both to be able to eyeball the difference between an E piston and an S -- especially if we don't know whether it's a 2,2 or a 2,4 piston (2,4 engines had significantly reduced compression ratios compared to the 2,2's ...)

you need the pin height.

i don't know if pin height is referenced to the piston deck, crown or the bottom of the skirt (crown or deck, i'd think...) and i don't know what they measure (the difference) between a 66mm stoke 2,2 and a 70,4mm stroke 2,4 -- but someone here must. or call EBS ...

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 12:03 PM

I plan on calling EBS, sending the 2.0 -4 heads there.

The seller has sent an email to Mahle for confirmation, too.

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2004, 12:37 PM

I once had a set of 2.4L S P/Cs.......plan D or sumthin'.
Those aren't them. The valve pockets & domes were much smaller.....still, check em' out.

The only place I know of to find the dimensions would be a factory manual.
Andial would have the old P/Ns, I would think. They do have a website listing P/Cs.

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 01:10 PM

Andial has a set in stock $2591 but it doesn't show the Mahle P/N.

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 01:14 PM

i wonder how much a good 2.4 crank is?

any other differences between a 2.4 and 2.2?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 19 2004, 02:01 PM

503-45-90 is a 2.2T, FWIW The Cap'n

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2004, 02:04 PM

I sold one.....crank & rods for 400 bucks.....
I have another on the shelf (& 5 and a half rods ) , but wanna keep it. It works for a 2.7.

You'll need rods, also. AIR, they are 1 mm shorter than 2.2 rods. If those are 2.2 pistons, they are "iffy" for a 2.4L.....case clearance & compression (hi) probs.

2.2S is good for 180 hp....minus maybe 10hp with carbs.
S cams & Webers are iffy also....for a street motor.

Tom Wilkinson had Rothsport build him a 2.5L long storke motor with carbs. AIR it made 196 hp at the crank. He'd be a good man to talk at. He's here somewhere.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 19 2004, 02:09 PM

Good cranks go for 500-750. T cranks may be lower, E/S counterweighted cranks may be higher. The rods and rod bolts are different, and the rod bearings. I believe 2.4 cases are squirted, pretty sure 2.2s aren't. You can use a 2.7 crank in a 2.4, and a 2 litre crank in a 2.2. I have some of each in my pile of engine stuff, as well as some cases of various types. HTH, The Cap'n

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 02:09 PM

and people think we're kidding when we tell them it's as expensive to rebuild a 2,0 as a 3,0 ...

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 02:10 PM

I was just thinking if I bought 'em and they were 2.4 P/Cs.

The plan is E cams with weber 40s. EBS said they'd port the heads to S spec.

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 02:11 PM

I've been offered the set pictured for $1200.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 02:16 PM

all the references say squirters started with '70 production, with the 2,2's...
i don't have my engine open yet to verify.

i think i read something about a main bearing width difference between the 66mm and 70,4mm stroke cranks, but i can't recall where i read it, now ...

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 02:24 PM

i'm debating that very thing, i wonder if it's needed with the E cams - they have much less lift and duration than the S. T/E/S all had the same valve sizes; i wonder if you'd actually lose port velocity increasing area without a cam change ...

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2004, 02:31 PM

FWIW indeed.
Those aren't T cylinders.......

Some box swapping?

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2004, 02:33 PM

Solex cams are bout half way between the E & S.
You'll never guess what I used

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 19 2004, 02:33 PM

The main bearings have the same part number through 1974, leading me to believe they're the same size. The Cap'n

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 02:43 PM

my cam chart


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Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 02:46 PM

Cap'n I missed your p/n post earlier.
Thanks, looks like we know we're in the ball park.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 02:49 PM

you are correct - i found where i read that - it was the rod bearings - the journal was reduced in diameter and increased in width to keep the bearing area the same.

the same reference (Anderson 1) says "through 1970" didn't have squirters but they started in '71 -- so it looks like later 2,2's had 'em, and early ones didn't... i plan to run forged pistons, so my engine is getting the uprated Turbo squirters whether it's got any now or not...

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2004, 02:59 PM

Where were youz guys when I was offloading all my 2.4L engine bits....cheep.
5r case (nice)
crank/rods (perfect)
non injected heads

yada, yada.....your timing sux.

Still have T cams iff'n ya need em'......nobody wants those.

I still have a collection of misc. bits, so get aholt of me first if you have needs.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 03:01 PM

those are 2,0 cam numbers...

your first column should read "intake lift at overlap TDC" (the cam timing spec ...)
that's the same for 2,0 and 2,2 cams. the events are different for 2,2's tho...

T E S
intake opens 15* BTC 20*BTC 38* BTC
intake closes 29* ABC 34* ABC 50*ABC
exhaust opens 41* BBC 40* BBC 40* BBC
exhaust closes 5* BTC 6* ATC 20* ATC

actually - it looks like T and S are the same, but the 2,2E cam got hotter...

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2004, 03:20 PM

What is not shown here is lobe centers. Generally, the closer the lobe centers, the more overlap.

Lobe centers for the S is 97 deg (int to exh)
Solex is 97 deg
E is 102.

AIR, the intake lift at overlap for the Solex is 4.0-4.3. The lift and duration is about the same as the E cams.

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 03:37 PM

Since I haven't actually disassembled this motor I have a question about cams & bearings.

Webcam lists 3 and 4 bearing cams, when did this change occur?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 03:44 PM

1978

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 04:09 PM

ok, so all the 2.0-2.7 production motors are 3 bearing, correct?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 04:14 PM

i didn't see anything that came right out and said so, but that is my inference, yes.
i have been led to believe the 4-bearing cam boxes can be used on early cases but i haven't personally checked it out.

but i THINK i recall having seen references to people with pre 3,0 engines using GE-billet cams, and AFAIK those were all made on 4-bearing billets. so - i donno how they did it *exactly* but there are many hints...

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 04:26 PM

what I've read in the BA text infers that the later cam towers can be used.

Now I know what I need to ask for- If I get Webcam ground cams.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 04:34 PM

WebCams are good cams.
i was planning on using GE-60 with my 2,8 but i think i'll just continue to use the E-cams with the 2,2+ -- as long as they check out. if there are wear issues, i'll have to revisit the whole issue again...

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 19 2004, 04:53 PM

Those look like 2.2/2.4 S pistons.

At $1200.00 Buy them.

I have a 2.4 T crank you can buy.

4 bearing cam housings don't fit earlier engines (me has been told... could be wrong).

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 05:04 PM

Eric, is there a difference between the 2 (2.2 and 2.4)?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 19 2004, 05:51 PM

more reading (i should be working ...)

Anderson(1) reports the 2,4 piston used the same pin height (so that won't help to know...) but material was removed from the crown to reduce the compression ratio and account for the stroke difference.

and JP's weighed in that the pistons in the picture aren't 2,4 pistons. so the question is - are they 2,2E or 2,2S ? i don't know that i've seen anyplace with all the pistons lines up together for identification purposes ... based on the picture that's identified as being a 2,0 S piston, i'd hafta say that looks pretty darned close.

if it's a "buy or not" decision, it sounds like the price is right, and even if it turns out they're not exactly what you want, you've got a good enough deal that you can resell them and come out okay ...

Posted by: seanery Aug 19 2004, 06:25 PM

That sounds like a pretty good consensus.

I'm gonna offer him a grand (just cause I'm a dick) to see if I can get an even better deal!

Posted by: TimT Aug 19 2004, 07:27 PM

The only real diff between the 2.2 E & S pistons is S pistons are forged E pistons are not. And then the respective CR the pistons make.( 9.8 for S 9.1 for E). This is static CR, the cam profile has MEGA influence on actual cylinder pressures.

Ive been down this road before I built a S+ from a T engine. Ted at German Precison started the work on my heads.. I paid him to plunge the mill, I did all the finish work, like smoothing and blending the ports. I also bought a counterweighted crank from Ted... $300 plus shipping the crank was STD/STD

oops rambling again

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 20 2004, 07:37 AM

What Rich said... my post should have read 2.2 -or- 2.4

How do we know they aren't 2.4's again?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 20 2004, 07:43 AM

i understand. probably going to be hard to see the visual difference between a forged and cast piston (be hard for me, anyway...) so - can you see the CR difference ? in looking at the picture of the piston in this thread - did that look like an E or an S to you?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 20 2004, 07:46 AM

the piston crown should be lower. with two to compare it should be visually apparant but i don't know that i've ever seen such a photograph... (and i certainly don't have a shelf of pistons to compare.

however - JP - who's actually seen 2,4 S pistons says the ones pictured here aren't. that'd be good enough for me ...

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 20 2004, 05:03 PM

Has anyone ever seen a picture of JP?

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 20 2004, 05:08 PM

Ah ha....allow me to post this pic. I'm the guy in the white hard hat. It's an old pic and it makes me look older than I really am.

BTW, from the piston pic, I'm 90% sure those are forged.
Forgings will be shaped so that the part can be removed from the dies (draft angles). Cast pistons most offen have shapes that don't allow for this. An exception would be die cast.....which is why I'm at 90% without a really good look.


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Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 20 2004, 05:13 PM

Still skeptical...