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Posted by: steuspeed Dec 18 2011, 07:20 PM

So I have had my car about 6 months now. It has 105k on the clock. No record of when the last time the transmission oil was changed. First and second gear syncros are toast, but if I am real careful I can get it to slip in without grinding. Got to put it in first just before you come to a stop. I just changed the oil (Brad Penn) and thought it would be a good time to try some SWEPCO 201 in the transmission. The oil that drained out looked pretty good. Still had an amber color to it but a little on the low side. So now with the SWEPCO 3rd has a real notchy feel to it. second will zip on the teeth as I come down from third with my usual methods. First is even more finicky than before. Outside Temp is 35-45 degree range right now. Will this get better over time? Seems like I went backwards. Any comments welcome.

Posted by: PancakePorsche Dec 18 2011, 07:37 PM

I have to admit my trans shifted much smoother and quieter with 85/90 from local Napa at a fraction of the cost. Not real sold on the Swepco based on my experience. My 2 cents.

Posted by: kg6dxn Dec 18 2011, 07:38 PM

Dr. Evil told me to buy the cheapest gear oil available from my FLAPS. Works great.

Posted by: tod914 Dec 18 2011, 07:50 PM

Brad Penn makes the correct gear oil too. $6 a quart or so, for what ever that's worth. Just put it in my car.

Posted by: bam914 Dec 18 2011, 08:03 PM

^^^This. Never ran anything other then the cheapest stuff. Even in my races cars.

Posted by: scott_in_nh Dec 18 2011, 08:08 PM

I've only had mine a few months longer, it came with fresh SWEPCO in it and shifts as you describe after the change.

I think I'll try some dino lube tomorrow and see what happens. I'll save the "precious" SWEPCO just in case I made a mistake!

Posted by: bembry Dec 18 2011, 09:17 PM

This is the 2nd or 3rd time I'v heard something like this. I'll stick to cheapie trans oil I guess. My synchros suck--sounds just like your did originally--don't want them to get any worse.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 18 2011, 09:25 PM

I cover the points about the swepco type of boutique oils in my 31 pages of notes below.

Posted by: steuspeed Dec 18 2011, 10:39 PM

I'm replying on the wrong thread. I thought mine got hijacked. Anyway Dr. Evil. So I should be running this Red Line non synthetic GL5 gear oil 75W-90? Sounds like the stuff I need. Or maybe just run good old Valvoline like underthetire says.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=47&pcid=7

Posted by: rfuerst911sc Dec 19 2011, 04:09 AM

I'm no Dr. Evil but just go to your local FLAPS and purchase regular gear oil, either Valvoline or any brand that is not synthetic. I know some use synthetic with good results but our synchronizers need a little friction to work properly.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 19 2011, 05:47 AM

I never said that. Regular dino oil was fine for the first 30 years. There is no magic lube without sacrifice/risk as I outline in my notes.

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 19 2011, 07:34 AM

About the only thing swepco has a bright blue colour and you can immediately tell if you have a trans leak.

I do think they have an acceptable engine oil for our older cars, still spendy for a dino oil.
They have a excellent water resistant grease that can be used for everything, including CV's.
I like the fuel injector cleaner, but mostly for doing a whole shot as it really cleans the carbon out of the engine, but doing this is a major freaking smoke bomb.

Posted by: Richard Casto Dec 19 2011, 09:07 AM

Just to add to something else to read, I wrote this article on transmission lubricants awhile back...

http://www.blueskymotorsports.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=6

Every oil has their "secret sauce" with respect to additives. One of those additives you will find in transmission/gear oil are "friction modifiers". So it could be that the Swepco is more "slick" than what you were using previously. So this means that your already questionably syncro rings and associated hubs and sliders are not working as well as they did with the other oil. The design of the synchro system in this transmission relies upon friction to work properly. The friction allows the dog teeth on the slider and synchro hub to "grip" the synchro ring. When this works correctly, the friction allows them to match speed and engage with out drama. If they don't match speed, then you get a clash of the dog teeth which causes the grinding noise.

In general I follow the general conventional wisdom of a number of people here and that is to use the cheapest oil "that works for you". To echo what has been said above, mainstream GL-5 dino oil has worked fine for decades. More expensive "boutique" oils may or may not work for you and they will NOT give you any extra value (due to their extra cost) if less expensive oils work just as well in your transmission.

My car is currently in pieces in my garage, but if it was running, what would I use in my 901/914? It probably would be Valvoline HP 80W90 GL-5. It is GL-5, it is the right viscosity, it is not a generic house brand, it is dino oil, it not synthetic, it has EP additives, its not particular expensive, and it is readily available at FLAPS near me. Other mainstream brands that fit this criteria would also probably be just as good or better.

Anyhow kudos for at least changing your transmission oil!

Richard

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Dec 19 2011, 10:11 AM

WHAT? Are you saying I've been right all these years? It can't be! All those guys on the internet couldn't be wrong. After all, it IS the internet, source of all things true. Besides, Swepco has to be better because it costs so much ................

The Cap'n

Posted by: wndsrfr Dec 19 2011, 08:33 PM

+1 to running dino but watch out for Valvoline in the white bottle--in small print there's a banner reading "limited slip" on it. I used it and found the shifts to be notchy--went back to the plain ol 85W90 & it smoothed out. BTW, this was with brand new synchros installed by the good Dr.E.

Posted by: Richard Casto Dec 20 2011, 08:13 AM

Great point! It is not uncommon to find a version of a specific gear oil that is tailored toward limited slip differentials. It should have something on it somewhere to indicate that it is for use with a limited slip differential, but you are right that it is commonly in small font on the the front, or even buried in the fine print on the rear.

Usually this version just includes additional or different friction modifiers to smooth out the grab and release action of a clutch type LSD. But that same friction modifier may make shifting harder due to it's extra "slickness". I suspect those who have a 901/915 AND a clutch type LSD have a fine line to walk on picking the right transmission fluid. Most likely anything is going to be a compromise between shift quality and smoothness of the LSD.

Richard

Posted by: worn Dec 20 2011, 01:36 PM

I did the same thing for the same reasons and had exactly the same result. However, I can live with it.

Posted by: pete000 Dec 20 2011, 04:00 PM

I switched to Swepco and it did not do much but lighten my wallet...

Posted by: bigkensteele Dec 20 2011, 05:24 PM

I rebuilt mine at one of Dr. E's clinics. Richard was also present. It was in really good condition and probably didn't need a rebuild, but what the heck...

Anyway, I filled it with Swepco when I installed it, and now it shifts worse than it did before I rebuilt it. I will be switching back to the cheap stuff over winter.

Posted by: earossi Dec 20 2011, 05:34 PM

I agree with Casto. I have a 993 and have found that using a trans oil with friction moifiers in it does not work well with Porsche synchros. Many 993 folks have found that an oil like Redline 75W90 N.S. which is a synthetic that does not contain any friction modifiers works best. Many transmission guys working on Porsches will guide you away from Swepco for that reason. So, suggest that you look for an oil without any friction modifiers in the formula.

Posted by: '73-914kid Dec 20 2011, 06:32 PM

And all this after spendning $50 on a gallon of swepco. perfect.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 20 2011, 08:42 PM

Just use it.

I've torn down my trans several times over the years (rebuilt in around 1998) for modification. Everything looks great after years of abuse.....and it's still going strong with Swepco. It's been pushing over 200hp/ft/lbs thru it since 2000 with fat stickey tiars.....now over 300hp/ft/lbs.....with fatter stickies. This crapping on Swepco comes up every few years.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 20 2011, 08:46 PM

You haven't got "Porsche snycros" in your 993.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 20 2011, 08:51 PM

Swepco is great for boxes that are being torn down and RnRed often.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 20 2011, 10:06 PM

Humm.... funny, I never had to replace a part in it except to change gear ratios and to install an LSD. I learned sumthin' new.

Posted by: Gint Dec 20 2011, 11:02 PM

I tried swepco once and I wasn't real impressed. I use cheap o gear oil. Never had an issue.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 21 2011, 05:50 AM

The detergent quality on Swepco causes yoru box to be very clean inside, no? Is it magic and it causes dirt and particles to dissolve into the ether? No, it is that it keeps such things suspended in solution. Regular dino oil allows crap to fall to the bottom of the case thus keeping it out of your gears and bearings. If you open and clean your case often, then this becomes less of a problem as you clean and change the Swepco. If you use Swepco, you need to be replacing it sooner rather than later. The recommendations for dino oil are 10Kmi, I would change Swepco far sooner.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 21 2011, 08:54 AM

Manny's the time I reused the oil I had drained out.....after all. it's 50 bucks a gallon. , a trans is not an engine, and MY usage was at most 300 miles a season after I took it off the street....hard miles but... Contamination consisted of metallic particles stuck the the magnetic drain plug,
Over the years I ran the stuff I bought maybe 3 gallons of Swepco.
I spent a hell of a lot more on engine oil......the best I could find.....I suppose that was an error also?
You do your thing, Doc, I did mine......that meant taking care of my equipment as best I could which worked out pretty damn well.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 21 2011, 09:26 AM

Your data is far from generalizable. I don't care what you do, but your scenario is not analogous to the majority of people you are trying to recommend swepco to.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 21 2011, 10:52 AM

AH....now I see... the big frog discounts any experience except his own. My 14 years of using the same trans on & off the street is worthless in your opinion. This is not about trans lube at all, but about egos.
I yield to your self importance.

Posted by: mikea100 Dec 21 2011, 10:52 AM

I used Mobil 1 75W/90 in 944 and it was very smooth. It's readily available in your FLAPS.

Excerpt from my favorite 944 site http://www.clarks-garage.com/
"The factory service manual calls for the transmission fluid to be changed every 60,000 miles. There's always been a lot of discussion about what type of transaxle fluid to use in the 944 transaxle. The factory shop manual calls for hypoid transmission oil SAE 75 W 90 to API Class GL5 or MIL-L 2105 B, or SAE 80 to API Class GL or MIL-L 2105. What does all that mean? I don' t have a clue.

Better, but more expensive alternatives to the standard transmission oil (IMHO) are Redline Synthetic MTL, Swepco 201, or Mobil 1 75W/90 gear oil. There was some discussion several years ago with regards to Mobil 1 gear oil attacking bronze synchros. However, there's never been anything to my knowledge to support that. Regardless of which of these three you choose, you'll probably notice a marked improvement in transmission shifting and noise, especially when the transaxle is cold."

Posted by: bigkensteele Dec 21 2011, 09:40 PM

JP, I will gladly sell you a gently used gallon of swepco for $20 + shipping - less than 200 miles of use. I know how my car shifted before I put it in, and it isn't the oil for me. I am going to drain it anyway. I may as well put it back in the bottle it came from a few weeks ago and let it go to someone who values it. Just PM me.

Posted by: Richard Casto Dec 22 2011, 09:40 AM

I think that is a good point to note. While this is 914world and we generally talk about the 901 series transmissions (such as in the 914 and older 911s), it should be noted that I think the 901, 915 and 930 were the last of the Porsche transmissions to use the classic "Porsche" synchro design. Later transmissions such as the G50 and beyond (actually pretty much any new manual transmission these days regardless of manufacture) uses the newer and simpler "Borg Warner" design. Part of this is also why people should not expect older Porsche transmission to shift like those in their econobox Honda or Toyota! In generally those who are new to older cars have been spoiled by modern transmission design. Not that you can't get a 901/915 to shift nicely, you can, but it will never be as nice as newer designs. Anyhow, I digress...

So.... shift quality characteristics are a combo of a specific transmission fluid AND the design of the transmission AND your personal driving/shifting style (I.e. try to speed shift and you will have more problems and do more damage). So a given fluid may work well in your 914, but not in your later/newer 911, or vise versa.

Richard

Posted by: dlestep Dec 22 2011, 10:40 AM

...in the late '80s and early '90s, Porsche owners with the "flat face" syncros
were having problems with some new transmission oils emerging, at that time; like Royal Purple,
for example, tested their oils on Porsche transmissions and found that the boundary
layer of their oil was too robust and caused difficulties when engaging gears.
The newer tapered BW types did not have a boundary layer problem.
If one were to talk to Royal Purple engineering, they would have suggested the
use of their RP ATF in the manual transmissions...some did, some didn't.
I for one, did not, even with their documented failure mode tests reports.
Use manufacturer's suggested lubricant, or its' equivalent specification and you
won't need to worry.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 22 2011, 11:04 AM

Many moons ago I went thru many T-10s, Muncies, & Saginaws ( a real POS) so I was familiar with BW syncros. The first time I got into a Porsche trans (901) , I sez to myself "WTF is this lash up". When I figured out how the syncros worked I sez "this is not a better idea" and I understood why the "balkyness" of the shifting and the requirement that the "pause" between the shifts was necessary. Couple that with the Rube Goldberg shift linkage and careful treatment is necessary. In 1988 Porsche started using the BW syncros.....that took em' long enuff to figure out....the NIH syndrome. In my 40 odd years of experience with manual shifting cars, the only time I gave any thought to trans oil was with the 901/915 and their effed up syncros.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 22 2011, 12:27 PM

Why are you such a dick?

Big Frog?

Do you deny that your use is far from the usual?

Posted by: Rockaria Dec 22 2011, 12:52 PM

I use Swepco in all of my 911/914 tranys. That is, up until my 73 914. It had sat for 5 years and the trany leaked. I was not about to put the expensive swepco in it while I got it back into running condition. I just put in the cheap stuff I use on my truck.

Well, I got the 73 to run and I noticed that it shifts great. Very smooth and nice. I have driven it almost a year now and I can honestly say I am impressed with the cheap dino fliud.

Whoda thunk it.. Oh wait you guys! Now if I can only get the engine to run smooth.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 22 2011, 01:28 PM

I did the conversion (and trans) in 1998 and took the car off the road in around 2005 so it's about 50-50 but.... my maintenance is far from the 914 usual it seems.

When anything started to act unusual I fixed it. The trans has required none of these steps past the "usual" (initial) sorting out the linkage bits....it seems many folks don't even do that.

As I've wrote before, I give credit to the trans builder for this success and it has
lived far beyond my expectations. All I did was treat it as gently as possible...under the circumstances..... which are well beyond your experience, I believe & keep it full of Swepco.......of course you discount all this and start name calling, Doc. I am not a trans expert. The trans is just another link in the chain and has to be dealt with like any other sub-system of a car.....so I learned to deal with it.

I'll have to go back and look at all this thread but I think my only "recommendation" was "just use it" to someone that already had some Swepco. The rest was recounting my experiences with the stuff and letting folks make their own judgments.

Bigkensteel.....I'll pass, I reused only my own oil if the urge strikes and I no longer have a 914. I just come here to be a dick.

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 22 2011, 01:46 PM

Posted by: Richard Casto Dec 22 2011, 03:34 PM

Not sure when the BW design showed up on the scene. I know Porsche has a bit of a problem at times with NIH syndrome (anyone looked at their attempt to design their own caliper brake just so they wouldn't have to license a design from someone else? It had a caliper in the middle with a ring like rotor). Anyhow, I think Porsche apparently made a ton of money on licensing deals for their design until BW came up with a better mousetrap.

Richard

Posted by: bryanf Dec 22 2011, 03:58 PM

FWIW I have about 325k miles on my tranny and it is just starting to need a brief pause in the 1-2 and 3-2 shifts. Cheap FLAPS dino oil changed 3x times.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 22 2011, 04:37 PM

Let re-phrase that, the 911s G-50 with BW syncros came out in 1988. Dunno bout anything else.

Posted by: HalfMoon Oct 21 2020, 10:14 PM

Not sure if my problem is related to SWEPCO or not. Just before I changed out to a cable system from www.cableshift.com, I changed to SWEPCO and didn't notice any real change in performance, but once I went to the cable system I've occasionally not been able to get it in gear (and this even when I've disconnected the cable shift from the console in its entirety. I can eventually get it to go into a gear with channel locks and muscle and then things go back to being ok until the next occasion it jams up.
I wonder if this could be attributed to the SWEPCO?
I suppose it'd be easy enough to experiment and change out to dino to see if this solves the problem...
I'm currently unable to shift into reverse (and remember this is with the cable shift DISCONNECTED-very important to note it's not the cable shifter or a matter of adjustment), this is actually inside the transaxle.

Posted by: Steve Oct 22 2020, 07:16 AM

To a lot of people oil is like politics and religion. A lot of of racers and professional shops use swepco. It’s supposed to reduce wear and make the components last longer. So if your a racer it will make your trans last longer, which long term lowers your costs to race. For street cars, comfort might be more important to you. From my experience with my 915 gear box, swepco is harder to shift than standard Dino oil. This was really noticeable switching from swepco to Kendall or Brad pen oil. I doubt this is your problem. Using oil other then Swepco, will just make it easier to shift.

Posted by: Front yard mechanic Oct 22 2020, 07:33 AM

Try Walmart brand shifts like butter

Posted by: 914Toy Oct 22 2020, 09:28 AM

After many years of street and track 911 experience and attempts to improve transmission shifting by use of different brand oils, including Swepco, I place swept alleged improvements in the category of mythology.

Posted by: Lucky9146 Oct 22 2020, 11:33 AM

You learn something new everyday. Going to get that Swepco out and replace and it as it sounds like it may improve things. This has been a helpful thread, sure glad it was resurrected after 9 years. When the timing is right I will be putting my 915 trans in and will go with what has been recommended here.

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 22 2020, 11:45 AM

I quit using 201 long ago, tranny never felt smooth, FLAPS cheap dino gear oil does a better job in our boxes.
I still swear by 101 grease.

Posted by: Steve Oct 22 2020, 11:47 AM

I have swepco in my 915 trans now, since that is what PMS installed. I will eventually swap it out for Kendall, which can be purchased with LSD additive from Pelican. Andy from Callas Rennsport recommended Brad Penn with LSD additive, but I didn't notice any difference from the Kendall.
Lots of threads on Pelican on Swepco, similar to this thread. That's how I found out about Kendall, which does seem to shift better/smoother for me and my 915 trans.

Posted by: jfort Oct 22 2020, 11:59 AM

There's a similar discussion on RennList 997 site. The consensus was that a change to Swepco in those cars made a noticeable improvement. I changed to Swepco and I agree. But that's a 2007 tranny opposed to 1970.

Posted by: Steve Oct 22 2020, 12:24 PM

In 1987 Porsche went from Porsche synchro technology in the 911 to a Borg Warner design (G50). Huge improvement over the 901/914/915 trans. That's the reason why 1987 911's are worth allot more, than there predecessors.

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 22 2020, 12:46 PM

JP was a funny guy.

Posted by: euro911 Oct 22 2020, 02:09 PM

@T H O M A S always recommended the cheeeeep gear oil from AutoZone. I think the brand was 'Global'

Posted by: Steve Oct 22 2020, 05:42 PM

The 901/914 trans already shifts easier compared to a 915 trans. I agree with Dr. Evil, Thomas and others on this thread. I wouldn't waste money on gear oil for a 914 trans. FLAPS non synthetic 90 weight gear oil is all you need.

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 22 2020, 06:00 PM

Seeing this old thread with Doc gave me a chuckle with the old posts.

and I'll add this one as worthy a classic therin and above.


Carry on.

Posted by: Gint Oct 22 2020, 07:31 PM

I miss John (Cap'n Krusty). I miss JP. I'm surprised Ron (Slits) didn't post in this thread. I miss him too.

That's interesting. Maybe I'll put the rest of that Swepco I didn't use in the Boxster and try it. The 901 didn't seem to like it. I use the cheap stuff in my 914/901 transaxle.

Posted by: euro911 Oct 23 2020, 01:42 AM

Let us know how that works out, Mike. I'll probably change the transxale fluid in the Cayman when I do the next oil change - just because I wasn't privy to the PO's maintenance records

Posted by: steuspeed Oct 23 2020, 02:10 AM

I started this thread and I can confirm SWEPCO is a bad idea in vintage transmissions. Go with the old factory spec non synthetic 90wt hypoid gear oil. It's hard to find. It will be the cheapest on the shelf, but it works. The new stuff is too slick for the syncros to work properly. Once you put SWEPCO in it will be contaminated. It will take several oil changes to get it cleaned out.

Posted by: HalfMoon Oct 23 2020, 07:10 AM

Just a straight 90? I was told dino 80w90 GL-5.
But experience speaks louder.

Addendum-I looked in the manual and it does indeed stipulate 90