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Posted by: GTPatrick Dec 29 2011, 01:47 PM

Since there is another thread on new bodies in white for other cars by Tom T. , Mustang , Camaro , etc. ,. I thought that I'd put out some food for thought questions concerning the same subject .

Knowing what was said that if a body in white were used to rebuild/restore a car , say a real rust bucket 914 , it would have to be registered as a new car under another name . Right/wrong ?

If that were so , then when one restores a rust bucket 914 or 914-6 / Then at what point does the amount of new parts or rebuiling of old parts turn it into a building of a new car vs. a restoration ? 20% new parts , 50 % new parts , 75% new parts , 90% new parts or even 99% new parts ? Is there a real difference ?

But if someone were to use a new body in white and use the rest of an old rust bucket 914 parts aren't you coming at it from a slightly different angle but still keeping at a restoration level since say you are using 50% or whatever level old 914 amount of parts as you would have used in the previous paragraph ?

It seems to be just about semantics and how one interprets the reasoning ? What laws and other legalities determine what's a restoration is versus a whole new build ? What laws and other legalities determine what % amount of parts determines it a restoration versus a new build ? Does the law even make any legal determination as to what legally defines the meaning of new parts ,restoration or new build mean ?

It's kind of luck looking at a fence from one side or another of that fence with 2 or more people trying to determine or define what it is . Either way it is still a fence no matter what side you are standing on .

Does anyone have any thoughts on this ? Any real facts or information out there that is actually fact and not fiction ?


GTP

Posted by: carr914 Dec 29 2011, 03:13 PM

Seeing how Bodies in White have not been available for many many years, your question is moot

Posted by: TurbOH Brad Dec 29 2011, 03:24 PM

QUOTE(carr914 @ Dec 29 2011, 04:13 PM)

Posted by: carr914 Dec 29 2011, 03:32 PM

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 29 2011, 03:32 PM

You're killing me here.

Posted by: scott_in_nh Dec 29 2011, 04:54 PM

To keep it OT but not moot;

If I had a rusted out 69 Camaro in my garage with a clean title and I bought a complete new body and I cut, welded or stamped all state required VIN numbers to the car and destroyed/parted the rest who would know and what would be wrong with it even if they did? it has to be as good or better than a patched up car right?

I think the car has to be correctly/honestly described when sold, but that should be the case with welded up cars too!

Now in some states, probably NH among them, you could register it as a kit car or hot rod or as the motor year (buy an old motor) to get it on the road.

Posted by: Andyrew Dec 29 2011, 05:07 PM

Just To keep this a possibility.. There are excellent chassis that have been put up for sale over the years ranging from 1-7k. This all depends on the work done to them and the amount of parts still on it. But If one was looking they could find a rust free rolling chassis for ~ 2500.

Posted by: TJB/914 Dec 29 2011, 05:28 PM

Porsche 914 legend in the Detroit area.

When I got into 914's 15-years ago there was a story about a local guy who bought a complete 914 body from the Porsche factory. He had the Porsche factory build it into a 914-6 with a vin #, etc. Now in my senior moment, maybe I can remember the guys name and get the vin #. Really, a true local MI legend. I'll check with Eric if it's true.

Tom

Posted by: scotty b Dec 29 2011, 05:45 PM

Bodies in white sounds like some sort of indie art flick.....or a porno...........

Posted by: scotty b Dec 29 2011, 05:48 PM

FWIW I believe DMV deems building a car around a vin to be fine, but putting a VIN into another car is illegal. Not much differecne IMO assuming neither is stolen

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Dec 29 2011, 06:27 PM

QUOTE(scotty b @ Dec 29 2011, 03:45 PM)

Bodies in white sounds like some sort of indie art flick.....or a porno...........

Posted by: scott_in_nh Dec 29 2011, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(scotty b @ Dec 29 2011, 06:48 PM)

FWIW I believe DMV deems building a car around a vin to be fine, but putting a VIN into another car is illegal. Not much differecne IMO assuming neither is stolen

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 29 2011, 10:19 PM

If i understand the procedure correctly, around here, a build from a "body in white" always gets a new VIN assigned.

Posted by: Tom_T Dec 30 2011, 01:42 AM

When first discussing body-in-white builds last year, I was told by a guy who is currently a PCNA Regional Service Mgr. - who was with several SoCal dealerships back in the 70's-80's, who said that it was rarely done, but he knew of a few.

He said that so long as a dealer or body shop did it & properly replaced the original car's VIN info to the new assembly - say after a brutal accident - that Calif. DMV accepted it at the original car as repaired. That was then & before the salvage vehicle laws came into effect - and declaring a car salvage is primarily done by the insurance companies' declaring it a total loss. He wasn't sure about how a body-in-white would be handled by DMV now, and pointed out that it varied from state to state DMV as to how they handle it.

Perhaps the current state of affairs could best be answered by someone in a particular person's state who has actually done one of the Mustang, Camaro, etc. body swaps & registered it.

I like the idea above that building around a car & transferring VIN & other id. numbers to the new sheetmetal - whether parts or and entire body shell, but whether a particular state's DMV/BMV/etc. will accept that or something else (e.g.: a new salvage or kit car title) would be best answered at the DMV/BMV.

Posted by: scott_in_nh Dec 30 2011, 09:00 AM

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 30 2011, 02:42 AM)

Posted by: topatrout914 Dec 30 2011, 02:31 PM

My moot is rusted out! What to do?????

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Dec 30 2011, 03:26 PM

The question of how much car has to be used to consider it restored versus a new car is as old as restoring cars is. Everyone has a different opinion on what amount of car has to be reused to constitue being the original car.

I can tell you that in many very expensive ($1 million plus) cars, there is not much more than a fraction of the oringal car used. I know two Porsche race cars that were built up from a vin plate, steering wheel, and windshield. They were sold for over $500,000 each. I also know of a 993 Cup Car that the tub was irrepariably damaged and a new tub, with the original vin, came over from Germany.

Posted by: Tom_T Dec 30 2011, 03:58 PM

QUOTE(scott_in_nh @ Dec 30 2011, 07:00 AM)

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 30 2011, 02:42 AM)

I like the idea above that building around a car & transferring VIN & other id. numbers to the new sheetmetal - whether parts or and entire body shell, but whether a particular state's DMV/BMV/etc. will accept that or something else (e.g.: a new salvage or kit car title) would be best answered at the DMV/BMV.

In my scenario you have a 69 Camaro with a clean title. Maybe its been in your garage for 20 years and it is rusted out.
You rebuild the car using a new unibody (put your existing VIN tags on it), part out and destroy the old unibody.
Register the car and take it to the garage for a safety inspection.
They check the VIN, the car passes the safety inspection and you are legal.

In theory if someone supplied me with a new tub I do not see what would stop me from doing this with my exisiting 74 2.0

If I kept it registered and the rebuilt car passed the annual inspection that would be the end of it.

Posted by: GTPatrick Dec 31 2011, 06:12 PM

12/31/11

Before I get started , Happy New Years everyone ! ! ! Well at least in a few hours . I hope that everyone here finds 2012 a better one for themselves and their family than this one .

My original statement/question probably will never be answered . It's like repairing a wooden sailing ship like the sailing frigate USS Constitution has experienced throughout its life . Darn near 90% or more of its wood has replaced , sometimes many times over in all of these repair/restorations . It is looked upon as the same sailing frigate as it was back in the war of 1812 or is it ? Or another easier explainable example . You have a fence that has been surrounding your Grandmothers house and built by your Grandfather . It's worn out and needs repair so you replace say 90% or more of the wood and paint it with 2 coats of new paint . You then stand back with your Grandmother admiring it and still call it the same old fence that your Grandfather built back in the 1950's and she agrees with you . Or is it really the same old fence and not a new fence that was rebuilt/restored with a few parts of the old fence ?

Several have said that you can replace the panels and other stuff in a basket case 914 and keep the same s/n and it will still be the same car and no need for a new s/n . But if you change the s/n plate and put it into a new body in white frame/car while including some of the parts from the old car also include some body and frame parts from the old car , well you have a new car and therefore need a new s/n because you took the s/n off of the old car and put it into a new body in white car .

Is there really a difference between putting a lot of new parts and assemblies on an older rust bucket junk car and keeping the old s/n calling it the same car versus using the same amount of parts and s/n plate that is still attached to one of thse parts/assemblies , some built by you or built by an outside source but then call it a new new car that can't use the old s/n ?

To me it's a matter of semantics and how one interprets the situation and the laws further muddy up the situation because they them selves are not clear cut and 100% accurate in what they say .

I can understand taking the s/n data plate off of the old car and only that part/plate and putting it on a completey built ready for road use car may not be kosher or legal but that is a different situation from the above paragraph and all of the previous threads . Maybe there is no real definition or opinion that would make a complete and certain decision/judgement . Therefore its a moot point and certainly a rhetorical point .

Well unless some one else can add some other logical reasoning to this thread I guess that its died a natural death . I only wanted to get some debate going here and find a real clear cut answer but then that didn't happen . Kinda of like asking Santa for a new Porsche 911 turbo for Christmas and finding a used up abused Yugo in my driveway on Christmas morning . It ain't gonna happen .

Again folks , have a Happy New Year and may it be safe and prosperous one for all you . Also , lets not forget those who have passed away from all of us this year . May they live on in a better place and may we never forget them .

Ciao for now .



GTP

Posted by: Tom_T Dec 31 2011, 06:57 PM

GTP - Happy New Year back at ya!

I think your thread brings out that there are at least 2 ways to look at the question: one legal/registration & the other in acceptable restoration practice.

1. - For the first - each state would have their own interpretation & regulations on the matter, and one would need to check with their particular state. There is probably some level of commonality state to state.

1.5 - A sub-set of of that may be how your insurance company interprets the respective state law and their coverage policies & terms.

For both the above & #2 below, this would apply in the 90+% parts change-out or body-swap scenarios, but the state DMVs/BMVs concerns are that folks aren't ripped-off by a dishonest dealer, shop or home mechanic with a franken-car wreck that has been cut & 2 welded together (as opposed to a true resto.).

2. - For the second - in most classic car restoration circles I think it's generally been accepted that extensive restorations - whether by individual parts or by an entire body shell, can be considered a restoration of the original car - so long as the original s/n or VIN is transferred to the completed resto, and there's not an orphaned "shell" running around.

With body-on-frame cars this is more straightforward as the frame & drivetrain remain, whereas the thought on it has had to morph a bit with unibody cars since the frame is integrated into the body shell, and they have been around since the 1940s-50s (VW Bugs, 356s, 911s/912s & domestics & foreigns), and their restorations with body shells appears to be just as accepted today - as noted by a couple of prior posters.

Finally - in both cases 1 & 2 - re-numbering VIN/SN of an existing shell/body of another car gets into muddy waters & is more sticky with newer cars, because of the registration of the donor shell/body as another "legal vehicle" - particularly when it serves to change the character of the vehicle, including when it's key parts or just the VIN/SN stampings transfered into another car body which has been registered (e.g.: changing a 914/4 conversion with a legal original 914-6 VIN or body parts).

Even more muddy is when clips are used from another car which includes then the old & "new" VINs/SNs in a Franken-car (914/4 to 914-6 is again a good example).

So maybe 3. is these latter muddy cases, as there are many Brass Age cars from the late 1800's through 1920's, & some later cars, which have needed to be reconstructed from various cars parts.

In any case, I believe the key is to be honest & straightforward about the steps taken to repair & restore a vehicle in both #1 & #2 (& #3).

In my case, I explored the possibility of using a body-in-white as a better resolution of rust & accident damage issues which pushed the price to comparable or well past to what a new body shell would cost. I wouldn't have fudged on the fact, and would've gone through the appropriate steps to register it & have the "resto story" told for any CW events, etc.

But I really want the car to be more reliable & rust-free for me to enjoy for the rest of my life (I'm 59), then to pass it on to my son to do what he pleases. I'm not at all interested in a "hobby career" of dong 914 nor other restos, but just in enjoying my finished car which has a lot of history.

And...yes for those thinking he's crazy - I am, but I'm also open to jumping ship on my resto (becomes a parts car), if I could find an excellent 73 914-2.0 or maybe an original 914-6 in an OE color I like.

Hope that clears up the two aspects of this excellent subject you've brought up!

I think it is one which will eek along with new info added from time to time, so I'd encourage you to bump it every once in awhile to ask others to add in what they find out as they go through restos of all types.

Time to go watch some Rugby - oops! .....I mean "R-word"!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Posted by: mepstein Dec 31 2011, 07:09 PM

The shop that restored my car 25 years ago went in the opposite direction. Put a vin from one car into a rusty beat up shell.

Posted by: kg6dxn Dec 31 2011, 07:12 PM

I had a 1969 911 Targa. Welded a C2 front end on... Welded a C2 rear end on...Welded 930 flares on... Cut the targa and put a soft top on... Swapped the engine and tranny to a 915/3.2L... Swapped the doors with an SC... Swapped the interior with an SC... Swapped the wiring harness with an SC...

California DMV decided the car was a rebody and assigned a new VIN but kept it as a 1969. No smog check required but they added an emmissions sticker stating the engine had to remain a 1986 3.2L and must meet the 1986 smog regulations.

My new VIN was CA******* 1969 Porsche 911... Beautiful fun car but not as fun to drive as a 914

Posted by: Bob L. Dec 31 2011, 09:35 PM

"BigSneakers", here on this board, says he's about to crush what he describes as a rust free tub. He's selling off all other parts.
Sounds pretty close to a "Body in White" option for cheap. If you're in southern Ca.

Posted by: Tom_T Jan 1 2012, 05:17 PM

QUOTE(kg6dxn @ Dec 31 2011, 05:12 PM)

I had a 1969 911 Targa. Welded a C2 front end on... Welded a C2 rear end on...Welded 930 flares on... Cut the targa and put a soft top on... Swapped the engine and tranny to a 915/3.2L... Swapped the doors with an SC... Swapped the interior with an SC... Swapped the wiring harness with an SC...

California DMV decided the car was a rebody and assigned a new VIN but kept it as a 1969. No smog check required but they added an emmissions sticker stating the engine had to remain a 1986 3.2L and must meet the 1986 smog regulations.

My new VIN was CA******* 1969 Porsche 911... Beautiful fun car but not as fun to drive as a 914

Posted by: carr914 Jan 1 2012, 05:24 PM

This is like the story of George Washington's axe. The Handle was replaced twice and the Blade 3 times, so was it still Washington's Axe?

Posted by: charliew Jan 1 2012, 11:38 PM

I have come to a personal conclusion there is no such thing as a rust free 70's era mild steel unibody car. Anyone who says they have one, just doesn't know how to look inside them. If they have ever been welded on, the interior of the body has rusted from the heat from welding. Just drill a hole and look inside with a borescope. If by some miracle they haven't been welded on I think there will still be rust.

I think all you can do is wish for a rust free 914 and replace the rusted parts. It will still rust but it will take a long time to show up. If you acid dipped it to clean it and then galvanized it maybe it would stay rust free but what would that cost? I once read on a land rover forum where they were galvanizing some of their parts but I don't remember doing a complete body.

Wouldn't a new 914 tub that was assembled from galvanized parts be great.

I wrecked a 58 beetle in the mid 60's and welded a 64 beetle front end on it and never thought about the vin problem. I cut the windshield post and the heater channels. It was my first two into one job I did. The front end was only a year old but it didn't cost much I think it was 150.00, and the 58 bug wasn't worth 500.00 before it was wrecked, so really I don't think anyone cared. I guess it didn't matter, anyway I never sold it.

Posted by: McMark Jan 2 2012, 12:15 PM

I think if you're going to try and answer the age old, "Is it the same car?" question, you need to specify some parameters. If you're asking about legal status, there are some pretty clear laws on the subject, so it's fairly definitive. If you're asking about social status (what non-law people think) then you're going to hear a lot of different answers, and none are right and none are wrong. You have to decide how you feel about it and that's the 'right answer' for you.

As for me? I don't care how much of the original car is there or has been replaced. I only care if the work was done well. I also don't care about the specificity of the VIN number. If it's a good clean 914 (or whatever) that is solid and sound, I'm happy.

And in the case of a 914/6, I couldn't care less about the VIN as long as a conversion was built up using correct parts on a correct year chassis. I would value a conversion built on a 1971 chassis more than one built on a 1974 chassis.

But as always, what I care about is irrelevant beyond my own car. As long as you are happy with your car and the modifications you've made, I'm happy. It's about loving and driving your 914, not adhering to my brand of crazy.

Posted by: Tom_T Jan 3 2012, 08:18 PM

QUOTE(charliew @ Jan 1 2012, 09:38 PM)

Posted by: Tom_T Jan 3 2012, 08:19 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jan 2 2012, 10:15 AM)