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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 914 Engine Choices
Posted by: GreekDriver Aug 31 2004, 07:13 PM
Hello. I'm a BMW fan, sorry guys. But the 914 has to be one of the funnest cars I've ever driven! Other than its transmission feeling like shifting through oatmeal and damn near impossible to get a smoot shift out of... 
(This is on all 914s I've driven, even one with a rebuilt transmission)
Well, there's a nice 914 for sale, with minimal rust, original motor, great interior and paint, and low miles. It's a 76 2.0l I believe, in Black. A fella in the neighborhood has had it since 1979 and barely driven it. He's not a car guy, he bought it because it looked nice. It drives nicely, but it lacks power, and the brakes don't impress me.
It's going to need an engine and rebuilding the type iv to its horrible stock form would just piss me off. Alot. I've been looking at engine options and I have no clue on what to do. I want lightweight, EXTREMELY high revving, past 10k RPMs, and over 190hp. So the V8s are out of the question. I've thought about a 2.0l Carrea motor, as those should be able to rev like hell when built. But I haven't really seen much info on them anywhere. Another Idea I had was an S14 engine from the E30 M3(1988 BMW M3), but I have no clue what transmission I'd use and how I'd get it to work... My last idea was to build an M10 up. The M10 was THE I-4 out of the BMW 2002s, E21s, and some E30s. It loves boost, the 1.5l block was doing 1500hp for BMW F1 in the 80s. 
I would try to find a way to get it to rev high in N/A form, or boost it. But again, I don't know how I'd get it to work with the 914.
Anyways, just give me some general ideas guys. I'd worry about suspension and brakes later. Oh, and the damn transmission would be going to the yard and I'm going to request to see it crunched, it would make me feel so good.
Thanks! And it's nice to be here! Hopefully I'll get some interesting responses to push me to buy that car.
Posted by: lapuwali Aug 31 2004, 07:40 PM
You'll find that no matter what gearbox you use (including the 914 gearbox), it's the linkage that makes all the difference in shifter feel. With a freshly rebuilt and properly adjusted 914 side-shift linkage with something like the Rennshift (see the Vendor's section on this board), you're going to get about best feel possible short of spending megadollars on something like a WEVO 915 setup.
The basic 901 gearbox itself is actually a pretty decent design, and has the big advantage of being very light (about 75lbs). However, they're all old, and rebuilding them properly is quite expensive ($4000). There are a number of alternatives out there (Audi, ZF, 915, 930), but they're all either very experimental or very expensive.
As for the engine, the Subaru flat-four weighs 40lbs less than the stock 914 engine according to a few sources, which makes it considerably lighter than many other engines (the 914 engine is about 275lbs). DOHC, four-valve, and bone-stock turbo 2.5 versions are pushing 300hp. You'll not see 10K rpm with it, but I'm not entirely sure why that would be a requirement.
I've never heard of a "2.0l carrea". Perhaps you mean a Carrera, which covers a lot of ground, but as far as I know never came in 2.0L form (at least not in a street car). The engine out of an '84-'88 911 (the 3.2 Carrera) is most likely the engine you're thinking of, and is a relatively common swap into a 914, along with most of the other air-cooled 911 engines, which range in power from 120hp to over 300hp. They're not especially light engines (early 911 engines being 70-100lbs more than a 914 engine, later ones being heavier still), but they fit the car well and there are lots of parts and knowledge available on fitting them to the 914.
btw, the '76 914 is the heaviest of the series. If you're concerned about light weight, a '70-'72 is a good bit lighter (200-300lbs).
Posted by: VegasRacer Aug 31 2004, 07:44 PM
If you want high revs plus hp, what about a Mazda 3 rotor engine?
Posted by: rick 918-S Aug 31 2004, 08:19 PM
Stick to BMW's. You don't appear to have any real passion or anyreal knowledge about how and why the cars you say you've driven don't shift correctly. Could be the hand working the lever. 914 don't shift like other cars. Specially BMW's. They have bushings that ware and require service. They all need to have their brakes serviced if they sit too much and the late model smog cars will not impress you if your looking for a neck snapping throttle response. There has been every kind of swap you can think of done to these cars. No insult intended but any conversion, restoration or modification worth doing requires passion.
BTW:
1972 914 with 1980 euro-spec "S" motor 300+ hp
1977 530I L-jet conversion, 5 speed conversion, slammed & tucked
1984 533I
1971 2002 IMSA Style wide body
1976 2002 190 HP franken motor
1995 M3 Daytonaviolett, Borla, 18" Hammans with Toyo Proxies Carbon trim, chip strut bar
Posted by: Mueller Aug 31 2004, 08:29 PM
damn Rich, I didn't know you has so many of those darn blocking my way cars in your possesion 
GreekDriver,
do a search on google and the web in general....tons of information on 914's and conversions........adapting the engine to the transmission is usually no big deal, you use an adapter plate and flywheel (search)....as far as I know, no one has done a bmw conversion....i guess you could be the first....have you priced parts for your dream S14 engine or any engine for it to spin up to 10K (not including the rotary)...not cheap at all...a honda engine might be your best best for what you are asking unless you have deep pockets with money to burn
Posted by: GreekDriver Aug 31 2004, 08:36 PM
BTW:
1972 914 with 1980 euro-spec "S" motor 300+ hp
1977 530I L-jet conversion, 5 speed conversion, slammed & tucked
1984 533I
1971 2002 IMSA Style wide body
1976 2002 190 HP franken motor
1995 M3 Daytonaviolett, Borla, 18" Hammans with Toyo Proxies Carbon trim, chip strut bar
I can shift just fine, but coming off firm, yet smooth shifting BMWs to 914s that feel like mush is a very very frustrating feeling.
The reason I want a 914 is because it handles great and is a great looking car. I want an extremely rev-happy motor simply because of the sound. I just want it to rev like hell, because driving in open air, with a roaring motor is fun. It's not practical, but driving a 914 isn't practical either...
I should probably stick to my BMWs as a 2002 or an E30 M3 with the kind of money I'd want to invest would shame alot of P-cars. But I think I'm going to be stubborn and buy the 914 and have my fun with it. It seems like a great project car.
And really how am I suppose to have knowledge about those 914s? I'm new to them, but almost every person I've met hates the way they shift, and I don't know why it would be viewed as acceptable. It's going to be one of the first things I fix.
And can't I stick some kind of BMW brakes on to the 914?
My passion is the end result, I do not like the way the 914 comes stock...
Posted by: GreekDriver Aug 31 2004, 08:44 PM
GreekDriver,
do a search on google and the web in general....tons of information on 914's and conversions........adapting the engine to the transmission is usually no big deal, you use an adapter plate and flywheel (search)....as far as I know, no one has done a bmw conversion....i guess you could be the first....have you priced parts for your dream S14 engine or any engine for it to spin up to 10K (not including the rotary)...not cheap at all...a honda engine might be your best best for what you are asking unless you have deep pockets with money to burn
I did a search on Google, but the results don't bring up what I need, and I'm a good Googler. I've been looking for hours, and just reading posts on this forum has gotten much further than Google.
I might just forget the high revving idea and through in a turbo charged M10. M10s are really cheap, and produce alot of power reliably. I really wouldn't want to do a Honda Motor, Hondas get enough praise for being great.
But I'm going to look into that.The S14 is a dream, it would be extremely expensive, and I'm a bit of a purist with the E30 M3, meaning I wouldn't want to put such a limited engine into a non E30 M3.
I could get the M10 to rev to about 8.5k RPMS under boost and keep it affordable and reliable, while putting out over 220rwhp, so I think I might do that.
Posted by: seanery Aug 31 2004, 08:45 PM
As far as brakes go, just make sure the current system is clean and solid and it should stop very well. Get good pads and it's great.
I doubt you'll find any 10k rpm motor for our cars, short of a rotary. You don't need tons of rpms to get a great sound. Listen to any smaller six and it sings!
Remove the smog from the 76 and put a new cam with some bigger jugs and carbs and you'll get a nice, healthy powerplant that may spin to 7k safely.
And shifting a 914 is an artform. It takes finese. It's not like an E30 or E36 at all. Drive a well sorted car before you start your project and it will help guide you to a fun place. 
Posted by: GreekDriver Aug 31 2004, 08:46 PM
The basic 901 gearbox itself is actually a pretty decent design, and has the big advantage of being very light (about 75lbs). However, they're all old, and rebuilding them properly is quite expensive ($4000). There are a number of alternatives out there (Audi, ZF, 915, 930), but they're all either very experimental or very expensive.
As for the engine, the Subaru flat-four weighs 40lbs less than the stock 914 engine according to a few sources, which makes it considerably lighter than many other engines (the 914 engine is about 275lbs). DOHC, four-valve, and bone-stock turbo 2.5 versions are pushing 300hp. You'll not see 10K rpm with it, but I'm not entirely sure why that would be a requirement.
I've never heard of a "2.0l carrea". Perhaps you mean a Carrera, which covers a lot of ground, but as far as I know never came in 2.0L form (at least not in a street car). The engine out of an '84-'88 911 (the 3.2 Carrera) is most likely the engine you're thinking of, and is a relatively common swap into a 914, along with most of the other air-cooled 911 engines, which range in power from 120hp to over 300hp. They're not especially light engines (early 911 engines being 70-100lbs more than a 914 engine, later ones being heavier still), but they fit the car well and there are lots of parts and knowledge available on fitting them to the 914.
btw, the '76 914 is the heaviest of the series. If you're concerned about light weight, a '70-'72 is a good bit lighter (200-300lbs).
Wow, thanks for the advice. The Carrera motor sounds expensive and heavy, so I think that's out of the question.
And if the earlier 914s are that much lighter, I should probably skip this car over!
I'll definetly look at the vendors section, that shift feel really has to be fixed.
Thanks!
Posted by: GreekDriver Aug 31 2004, 08:54 PM
I doubt you'll find any 10k rpm motor for our cars, short of a rotary. You don't need tons of rpms to get a great sound. Listen to any smaller six and it sings!
Remove the smog from the 76 and put a new cam with some bigger jugs and carbs and you'll get a nice, healthy powerplant that may spin to 7k safely.
And shifting a 914 is an artform. It takes finese. It's not like an E30 or E36 at all. Drive a well sorted car before you start your project and it will help guide you to a fun place. :driving:
I had been driving a 3.0 Z4 the days prior to the 914 test... The Z4 had a salvaged title, but I had a great feel to it. I'm probably spoiled.
Who manufactures good pads for this car?
And is there any software like the BMW ETK software that has these cars mapped? I have software for BMW that has complete schematics. I could settle for a detailed book or repair manual.
Posted by: rick 918-S Aug 31 2004, 09:07 PM
Yes you can use BMW calipers. some guy's use modified 320 calipers. they require machining to fit. I'm running a set of 4 piston calipers off a 2002 on my 1972 914. They were a direct bolt on. This is my spin on upgrading the brakes. If you increase the sprung weight by adding a big cast iron V8 and add over size diameter as in taller, wider, and heavier than stock tires and wheels (unsprung weight) you will want to increase the clamping force. If you leave the car stock as in type IV motor, stock type wheels etc. the brakes should be fine as long as they are in proper order.
Posted by: lapuwali Aug 31 2004, 09:08 PM
35 years of design does mean something. The 914 brakes are also unpowered, which is something that takes getting used to for people who grew up only driving cars with servos on them.
Not entirely sure what you're asking here. There are copies of wiring diagrams on this board and elsewhere. The Haynes manual has them, too. If you're asking about engine mapping (as in the fuel injection system), these systems aren't "mapped", as they're not digital. All analog ECUs. 1960s tech, literally.
Posted by: DerekKim Aug 31 2004, 09:20 PM
Hey GreekDriver how much does your neighbour want for the 914?
Posted by: BatAc Aug 31 2004, 10:11 PM
Greekdriver, I gotta' tell ya' I love the shifting in the 914 (901 tranny)! As far as the high RPM's I don't believe that's necessary. At present when I'm in the car with a lady you already have to shout back 'n' forth do to the beautiful sound. Plus when we get out we have those big grins while our ears are hummin' like we jus' stepped out of a rock concert. Damn it's fun!!! 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 31 2004, 10:14 PM
whats that you say? cant hear you Hold on, lemme pull over, or go into a higher gear
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 31 2004, 10:23 PM
ok, here's some educational brain-excrement about high-rev-motors ...
unless you're talking about building a real racecar, a engine that revs into the 10k range will not be very useable.
basically, what you do by building such a engine is, simply put, to move the useable power band up into the higher rpm's.
the reason you do this for a race car is, also simply put, the fact that you usually don't run under, let's say 4k rpm on a open track, so power below that threshold is wasted.
thus, you build a motor that revs up to 10k but it won't make *any* power below 5k what-so-ever!
now, suppose you got a motor like that and also suppose you drive the car daily on the road,
do you have any idea what that will do to you while you're sitting in that traffic jam called morning commute?
a motor like that will not be drivable on the street if the car is used as a normal driver.
period.
for mostly street application and AX, you want low end torque. lots of it.
and you ain't gonna get it from a high-rev motor.
as for the sound, just record your girlfriends sewing machine,
pump up the volume by 10x and play it on 45 ...
(wait, they don't make those anymore!)
Andy
Posted by: GreekDriver Aug 31 2004, 11:04 PM
ok, here's some educational brain-excrement about high-rev-motors ...
unless you're talking about building a real racecar, a engine that revs into the 10k range will not be very useable.
basically, what you do by building such a engine is, simply put, to move the useable power band up into the higher rpm's.
the reason you do this for a race car is, also simply put, the fact that you usually don't run under, let's say 4k rpm on a open track, so power below that threshold is wasted.
thus, you build a motor that revs up to 10k but it won't make *any* power below 5k what-so-ever!
now, suppose you got a motor like that and also suppose you drive the car daily on the road,
do you have any idea what that will do to you while you're sitting in that traffic jam called morning commute?
a motor like that will not be drivable on the street if the car is used as a normal driver.
period.
for mostly street application and AX, you want low end torque. lots of it.
and you ain't gonna get it from a high-rev motor.
as for the sound, just record your girlfriends sewing machine,
pump up the volume by 10x and play it on 45 ...
(wait, they don't make those anymore!)
Andy LOL! I know what the advantages of having a peaky, high revving engine are. I'm not new to cars.
The E30 M3 is gutless bellow 4k RPMS and it needs to be wound to hell to get moving in traffic, and I love that. Except the E30 M3 isn't used by many as a daily driver... And this Porsche wouldn't be used as a daily driver, it would be a weekend/track car. I have this car to cruise the boulevards...
The way I see it, if the Honda S2000, a car that can be bought for under 20 grand used can spin at 9,000 RPMS and put out 240hp, why can't a heavily modified BMW or Porsche engine?
I am wanting to build a race car.
I shouldn't have said simply because of the sound, thats part of it though. Who wouldn't want a weekend/track car with a 10k RPM redline.
Lazy people don't like to shift in traffic, I personally have a hell of a time driving around town with a car that needs to rev to get power.
Plus Flat power bands aren't fun. Whats fun is a power zone where your either in it or not. Like on or off.
I'm auto-crossing in another E30 right now. It's cheap, has crappy tires, and its suspension is stock, so it wont cover any of my mistakes. By the time the Porsche is ready, I should be a much better driver.
Posted by: morphenspectra Aug 31 2004, 11:18 PM
i wonder how well a bmw shifts that was mfg from 70-76. 
you can make the 914 shift very well and smooth as well.but i dont think you will get it as well as a shifter that is pretty much attached to the trans like in a bmw.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 31 2004, 11:25 PM
10 feet of linkage with quite a few directinoal changes ...
i'm actually quite impressed how *well* a 914 shifts if you keep all your bushings in good working order.
all things considered, i think my car shifts great. the only "improvement" i can think of would be one of James's Rennshifters ...
which reminds me, it looks like i'll finally have to funds available to buy one this month!
Andy
Posted by: Bleyseng Aug 31 2004, 11:39 PM
Try to find a 3.2L 914 to drive as it should fit most of your requirements. Over 230hp, rvs like crazy and sounds great!
It would also be the most streetable engine I can think of....plus plenty of torque for the track.
This only costs around 10k to convert to without doing the updates to the brakes and suspension.
Buy a finished car and save yourself time and money if the high hp route is your dream.
A turbo rotary would also fit the bill but tons of work to build it right due to all the extra heat from the motor.
Geoff
Posted by: Mueller Aug 31 2004, 11:39 PM
that is fine and dandy, but do you know for a fact that you'll have a place to run this bastard of a conversion??
(anything not Porsche powered, just the same as powering an M3 with a chevy V8...wait, that would be cool, LOL)
even with my conversion, the installation of a VW Jetta/Corrado VR6 into my 914, I have no place to "race" it.......the only places for me to play are when some of the private groups rent a track and let me play....
you just want to make sure that once built, you have a place to run it instead of just the street....it should be fun car if built correct...now that you know it can be done, get on it and quit talking about it...we want to see progress
Posted by: tesserra Aug 31 2004, 11:42 PM
I too had BMW 2002's before my 914.
Yes they shift different.
Yes they do not rev as high.
None of that matters. These 914 cars evoke a different kind of one with the car feeling. I have been into turns auto-xing going way too fast, have been severly opposite locked, side ways, and got out of the turn without hitting any cones! These cars are so controlable at the limit that you feel comfortable there. My 2002 never came close. (and I had a very nice TII)
As far as motor sound, there are not many motors that can match an aircooled motor.
Aircooled Porsches sound louder as they rev higher. They have fans, noisy valves etc that combine to make you feel like you are going faster than you are.
This mechanical music, the quick shifts of a seasoned 914 owner and the balance of the car make it a tough car to beat.
I now own a 914 with a SBC. It is extremely fast, yet it does not feel like you are going 100mph. The threshold of feeling fast is so much higher that it is hard to get there. Whereas in the 4cyl 914 you had to do a lot of work to get to that same 100mph and so did the motor and you feel like you accomplished something. So the V8 car in some ways is not as much fun, or more correctly, not the same experience.
BTW I bought my first 914 just for the hell of it, took it auto-xing and never looked back.
One more thing, I think that 914's are only fun for the driver, not the passenger. They are loud, hot, and blow womens hair everywhere. I own my 914s because I love to drive them, no other reason.
Yasou,
Yiorgos
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 31 2004, 11:45 PM
amen!
Posted by: Kevin@ojai.net Aug 31 2004, 11:54 PM
I like the way the 914 shifts.
Posted by: soloracer Aug 31 2004, 11:59 PM
Actually the three rotor is the "big block" of rotaries and as such doesn't rev as high. A better choice would be a peripheral port 13B (two rotor) which can be built to rev 10,000 rpm. However even with a rotary you had better build it right for those rpm's. My twin turbo three rotor has a redline of 7000 rpm and probably pull 8000 rpm if you push it in stock form.
A normally aspirated peripheral port 13B will make a over 300 hp at the flywheel. Or you could just bridge port it and get 285 hp. The difference is the life expectancy of the engine. The peripheral port won't last as long as the bridge port. The candle that burns twice as bright burns 1/2 as long right? If you throw in a turbo you could get over 600 hp but you still would have a hard time with the 10,000 rpms. A three rotor can give you over 1000 hp in big turbo format. I'm aiming for 400 rwhp with the stock twin turbos.
Posted by: Mueller Sep 1 2004, 12:00 AM
what is this thing called "shifting"...must your car be running to achieve this so called lever moving operation??
Posted by: Kevin@ojai.net Sep 1 2004, 12:10 AM
HAHA! Ok, ok I haven't driven my 914 in a LONG time. I don't think it has seen more than 100miles in the last 2 years...
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 12:53 AM
I'm going to look at the 914 again today, be sure it's what I want. Hopefully the guy will be ok with taking it over to my mechanic and letting me jack it up and look at it some more. If the 70-72s are that much lighter... Maybe I should pass this deal over. He's asking 7,000. Pricee, but for minimal rust, good paint, and great interior... It seems ok.
It looks like a forced induced M10 from BMW will be what I need. 8.5k RPM redline, over 300hp, it's gong to be a mutant of an engine though. I'm going to give Kormans a call tomorrow so I can get a quote an a build. Then I'll divide it by 5 and take an M10 to my local engine builder.
Now where do I put the radiator and intercooler? In the front? 
Oh man, I crack my self up...
This will take years...
I better start reading every post on the boards...
Thanks! If you guys have more information, please tell me.
Posted by: redshift Sep 1 2004, 01:19 AM
Not a very good idea..
You could, for the same money:
A. Buy a Lotus. (easy, with spare change at the end)
B. Get a fully flared car, with a ZF, and a big block. (not easy)
The Lotus will scream, the BB will scream louder, and you can hold down over 1000 horses, without breaking it.
There is no reason.
M
Posted by: fiid Sep 1 2004, 01:30 AM
that is fine and dandy, but do you know for a fact that you'll have a place to run this bastard of a conversion??
(anything not Porsche powered, just the same as powering an M3 with a chevy V8...wait, that would be cool, LOL)
even with my conversion, the installation of a VW Jetta/Corrado VR6 into my 914, I have no place to "race" it.......the only places for me to play are when some of the private groups rent a track and let me play....
you just want to make sure that once built, you have a place to run it instead of just the street....it should be fun car if built correct...now that you know it can be done, get on it and quit talking about it...we want to see progress
Just an aside Hijack -
The Aston Martin and Jag 8K8 in the Bond movie "Die another day" were both powered by small block chevy v8s. They were on 5th Gear this week. They also had a lot of fake looking weapons that would pop up on demand. Very cool.
Fiid.
Posted by: fiid Sep 1 2004, 01:36 AM
Oh yeah Mueller - we can race with the ARC - which is a spin off from the Northern California Racing Club. Very lightweight rules structure.
I am doing the Subaru conversion. It should be nice - I've talked about it a lot on here - do some searches. I'll the spare the regulars the pain of listening to me go through it again.
Are you seriously talking about anm M3 engine? A straight 6 in a 914 will either hang out the back of the car or you'll be using it as an arm rest. Even the Porsche V8 requires a firewall move. You will probably get away with an inline 4.
if you want a serious racing machine - lighten one a 914 A LOT and put a Hayabusa engine in it. That will rev to 10k, and give you 175hp and a sequential shift box. They can be bored to 1500ccs, and I imagine you could also look at turbocharging the thing if that wasn't enough.
Just a thought
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 02:09 AM
I am doing the Subaru conversion. It should be nice - I've talked about it a lot on here - do some searches. I'll the spare the regulars the pain of listening to me go through it again.
Are you seriously talking about anm M3 engine? A straight 6 in a 914 will either hang out the back of the car or you'll be using it as an arm rest. Even the Porsche V8 requires a firewall move. You will probably get away with an inline 4.
if you want a serious racing machine - lighten one a 914 A LOT and put a Hayabusa engine in it. That will rev to 10k, and give you 175hp and a sequential shift box. They can be bored to 1500ccs, and I imagine you could also look at turbocharging the thing if that wasn't enough.
Just a thought
The original M3 engine was an I-4.
It's really expensive though.The I-4 I want to use is out of a 2002, E21, or E30. It would have the M3 crank though. Hopefully there will be enough room. I'll have to measure tomorrow...
Now I'm worried about the clutch, where will I find a clutch that can handle over 300hp?
Are there any forced induced 914s I can look at?
Posted by: redshift Sep 1 2004, 02:31 AM
http://www.v8914.com/
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 03:11 AM
Wow...
Too bad it is atrocious looking. Very functional, but atrocious. I think it would have looked better without connecting the flares of the fenders and quarter panels. But looks don't matter in that cars case.
Unbelievable work.
That guy is amazing.
Posted by: Jeroen Sep 1 2004, 07:44 AM
The clutch won't be the hard part... the tranny will
Start saving
Posted by: tdgray Sep 1 2004, 08:17 AM
With Rick, you should stick to things you "know" and leave the 30 year old cars to those of us that love and care for them. 
Go get yourself a rice-mobile and tweek that. That way you won't be hacking up any of our good cars. <_<
Oh and BTW - I can speak from experience having owned a 2800CS, a 3.0 CS and a 635CSi.
Posted by: ! Sep 1 2004, 08:21 AM
We're toast....another Greek wanting to hotrod a 914.....
RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Hope we aren't related....
Posted by: MarkG Sep 1 2004, 08:39 AM
"I want an extremely rev-happy motor simply because of the sound. I just want it to rev like hell, because driving in open air, with a roaring motor is fun. ".....
Do like I did - get a Ferrari 308, get the rev-happy/raoring motor fix out of your system(plus NOTHING shifts like a gated F-car tranny!)....then come back to reality, get a 914, build a really strong motor, upgrade the suspension (all for about the price of a tuneup on the F-car) and have FUN!
Or just drop a 308 or 246 Dino engine/transmission into your 914.....(you can find rebuildable 308 engine cores for around $6k.......)
Posted by: ArtechnikA Sep 1 2004, 08:50 AM
sure it did!
Abarth Carrera (about 20 made, a homologation special) and Carrera GTS (904) came with 2,0 liter 4-cam Carrera engines. (real Carreras have 4 cams ...)
and technically, the 906 was called 'Carrera 6' and it had the 2,0 6-cyl engine.
[ this historical aside concludes now ... ]
Posted by: d7n7master Sep 1 2004, 09:03 AM
If you have issues with the way the tranny shifts, replace ALL of the shift bushings & install a Weltmeister reverse lock-out shift kit. Make certain that the shift linkage is adjusted correctly. You will notice a HUGE improvement. In fact, it feels AWESOME. Certainly much better than any 2002 mush box.
As for as a hi-rev engine swap - have you considered a Mazda 13b rotary??? They're cheap, there's lots of them, make about 150hp & rev like a SOB. Personally, for the $$$ I'd keep the type IV and send it to Jake to magically turn it into the engine porsche should have put in our teeners in the first place.
Posted by: DNHunt Sep 1 2004, 09:12 AM
I'm really surprised we're being so hard on this guy. We've been very accepting of some pretty over the top mods before. We practically worship what Rick did with his 928 engine. And, GreekDriver's certainly not talking POS machinery. If he can pull it off more power to him.
I suppose he won't get everything he wants though. We are all hampered somewhat by the package as a whole. It's just we are more accepting of it's faults because we really value its strengths . No doubt we that love these cars are able to ignore things that more critical people won't accept. Many of us set about changing the items that we can and for the most part we are satisfied. GreekDriver just seems to want to do it all at once. I think that is where the problems will start. He's going to be undone by the rule we all tend to ignore. Only change one thing at a time.
I say good luck and keep us posted. I for one will enjoy see what you can do
Dave
Posted by: aircooledboy Sep 1 2004, 09:40 AM
Sheesh. Easy up on the guy ladies. He is excited and doesn't know all we know about the obstacles of the major mods he is contemplating. There has been some great advice in this thread. We should stick to that. "Smiliest", remember? 
Posted by: vortrex Sep 1 2004, 09:51 AM
dude you should do a 914 limo conversion, they autocross really well.
Posted by: soloracer Sep 1 2004, 10:33 AM
GreekDriver: Go to http://www.kennedyeng.com and check and see if they have an adapter for you motor. They also sell clutch set ups for Porsche transmissions and are a good vendor. Many of the packages being sold by other vendors are using Kennedy Engineering stuff.
Go with the Renegade Hybrids radiator set up as it has been proven to work with V8's in Las Vegas. Be prepared to spend about $1000 on that alone. As for the intercooler forget about putting it up front. Front mounted intercoolers are great for a car with a front mounted engine. However, on a mid engine car if you front mount your intercooler you will have a massive intake tract for the air to go through before it gets to the intake manifold. The result will be tons of turbo lag - not a very desireable thing to have. Better to go with a rear trunk mounted, roof mounted or rear wheel well mounted intercooler.
In an issue of European Car magazine there was a 914 race car that was using a turbocharged audi engine and 6 speed transmission. He had to custom fabricate a lot of things but it you wouldn't have to buy an engine adapter and it would solve your "shifts poorly" problem.
Good Luck!
Posted by: Brett W Sep 1 2004, 10:56 AM
Alright someone that thinks along my lines.
First: Find the cheapest 914 you can find, do not hack up the nice example.
Second: cut the front and back off the car
Third: build custom dual a-arm front and rear subframes
Fourth: find any motor that you want and weld suitable mounts on the subframes
Fifth: Call Roger Sheridan and order the one peice body kits to cover it all up.
For 10k engine check out: http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/
Get the 1UZ engine from a lexus, add the suitable amount of cash and you can spin to 10k but it will not be cheap. If your car wieghs 2000lbs you don't need a bunch of torque to drive it around town.
Posted by: tdgray Sep 1 2004, 11:18 AM
I don't think we are being hard on this guy at all... just realistic.
He wants something totally different than a 914.
I don't always agree with you guys on mods. I think Chebby engines belong in a Chebby et all but you do what you want and I'll do the same. After all is said and done we all still love the cars so it doesn't matter.
That said I just think our young friend here is going to blow alota money and be disappointed and in the process possibly destroy a piece of automotive history. But again he doesn't have to listen to me or anyone else, but he did ask for an opinion.
Of course you know what opinions are like, right
Posted by: lapuwali Sep 1 2004, 11:50 AM
I find it interesting that we have three people at the same time all interested in buying a 914 and putting some other engine in it and doing a lot of other mods to it, but have yet to actually buy a car.
Frankly, for Mssr. Greek, I think Brad's answer is the best one: buy a Boxster. By the time you gut one for racing use, you won't be up a huge amount on weight, and the total outlay for the power and brakes you'll have will be far less than what it would cost to add those things to a 914. It will probably shift better, too.
Posted by: DerekKim Sep 1 2004, 12:25 PM
Are you saying that it's the same person?
Posted by: ArtechnikA Sep 1 2004, 12:36 PM
i didn't get the impression he was trying to imply that at all.
these things go in spurts, sometimes. for a while, turbo 914's were all the rage, and there were four or five in more or less active development. a couple actually got built.
i took it as a simple observation. i don't think it that unusual that several people can simultaneously want to get into 914's and go directly to modified cars or modification projects. the word is out that if you're interested in doing anything to a 914, this is the place you come to talk about it.
Posted by: DerekKim Sep 1 2004, 12:42 PM
Ahh ok. Yeah I've actually been lurking aroudn these boards for a little while now. What happened is my mom and I go in a car accident and we needed the extra money so I let her borrow it from me and I gain interest off of it instead of some bank. She is also giving me 2k for a car. I would probably have the 924S in Tennesee right now had it not been for my new uncle who said that if the clutch went out on it it'd be like 1500 bucks. I was always thinking of either the 924 or 914 but kind of made up my mind once insurance came into thought in Cali. So I would probably have the car by now but I have to wait a month or more for a settlement.
Posted by: Sammy Sep 1 2004, 01:18 PM
It sounds to me like you are describing a Honda S2000.
You could put one of those engines in a 914 (a dream of mine, 9500 rpm and 240 hp) but by the time you get done you will have spent a lot o'money on something that will likely not be as good as an S2000.
I say just go buy one unless you really like to tinker.
BTW a slightly modified yellow S2000 regularly takes TTOD at our AX. Them things run. They also make an aftermarket supercharger for them, increased bottom end torque and 330 hp, out of a 2 liter. I like.
Posted by: Mueller Sep 1 2004, 01:47 PM
yep, same thing happens up here, I think he's an instructor that brings his S2000 to the Marina Porsche Club auto=x and damn near cleans up every time....
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 03:34 PM
A 300+hp BMW powered 914 that is light weight is hardly destroying automotive history... IMO it's repairing it...
What would I be dissapointed with? The 914 is a great handling car, with a beautiful design. I'd just be adding power. And there are over 100,000 with 98,000 having rust on them somewhere... This one has rust.
Anyways, I'm looking at the 914 again in about an hour, I'll report back with details.
I still can't believe there is no BMW powered 914, who would put a small block over a great BMW I-4?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 1 2004, 03:37 PM
leave the 914 alone... put a v8 in a 2002 
Posted by: Mueller Sep 1 2004, 05:20 PM
well, I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd have to say at there are at least 100 V8 conversions.....I guess all of them must be pretty clueless since they some how "over looked" this great BMW I-4 you keep bragging about (which they no longer make since there is something called progress
)Sometimes practicality wins over passion , you have a lot of passion for this I-4 motor and there is nothing wrong with that, but at the same time, you seem to be clueless about the motor when it comes to the real world of how much it's going to really cost to get the HP level you want from it. I don't know, you say you want 300hp and to keep it affordable at the same time, I'm guessing it's going to cost you at a minimum $5000 for the motor itself and that is with you doing a lot of the work....of course the price comes down if using used parts such as the turbo and fuel injection.
From what I've read about it on the web, yes, it's a pretty good engine, but a lot has changed and for some people, they don't want a motor based on 1960s technology (I know, they used the same basic engine up to 1983)
Posted by: Headrage Sep 1 2004, 05:53 PM
Hell, just build a massive 500ci chevy full alcohol motor, put it in the front coupled with a 2 sp with a 9" ford rear end and take it to the DRAGS!!! 
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 06:32 PM
well, I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd have to say at there are at least 100 V8 conversions.....I guess all of them must be pretty clueless since they some how "over looked" this great BMW I-4 you keep bragging about (which they no longer make since there is something called progress
)Sometimes practicality wins over passion , you have a lot of passion for this I-4 motor and there is nothing wrong with that, but at the same time, you seem to be clueless about the motor when it comes to the real world of how much it's going to really cost to get the HP level you want from it. I don't know, you say you want 300hp and to keep it affordable at the same time, I'm guessing it's going to cost you at a minimum $5000 for the motor itself and that is with you doing a lot of the work....of course the price comes down if using used parts such as the turbo and fuel injection.
From what I've read about it on the web, yes, it's a pretty good engine, but a lot has changed and for some people, they don't want a motor based on 1960s technology (I know, they used the same basic engine up to 1983)
1987 actually...
The engine will cost about 8k-10k with a turbo and intercooler. Thats with somebody else building, which would probably have to happen. But it would be able to put out WELL over 450hp.
The M10 block is good for up to 1500hp, it's proven.
What I would do is get 8.0:1 forged pistons, an S14 crank and 92mm bore would turn displacement to 2.2l, some custom rods, extensive head work, valve springs, keepers and rocker arms, turbo cam, o-ring, copper head gasket, etc... You get it. There are similair setups putting down 750rwhp under 2Bar of boost... Go find me a V-8 that can do that and keep the weight low. BTW... I'd be revving to 8k-9k RPMS... The M10 is free, I have a family member with a junk yard. I could do no work to it and put out over 200hp with a turbo, with a total cost of about 2,500, to 3,000 but whats the fun in that.
The M10 is still a great engine, I have no clue why BMW doens't still use it today. IMO, it's new I-4s aren't as reliable, and get worse gas mileage. At it's best the 1.8l SOHC M10 was putting out 127hp. That doesn't include its turbo charged 2002tii variant.
I didn't say they overlooked this engine.
The M10 weighs 186lbs.
Don't say it's not doable, it's been done. If it can't get done with 10,000 dollars, I'll put in more. I don't have many expenses.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 1 2004, 06:39 PM
sounds like a BMW BBS huh 
,
1st question: where are you going to put this intercooler? radiator? exhaust? etc...
2nd: what the heck are you gonna do with a transmission, 1 901/914 trans is good for 200 - 300hp (maybe). 1500hp? hmmm.. no.
3rd: with all this power, how you going to keep it on the ground?
seems like you want to build a mid engine custom car under a 914 body
oh well... 
Posted by: seanery Sep 1 2004, 06:52 PM
Those motors are good. My buddy has an EVO spec 2.3 in his E30 race car. I think it dynoed at about 270. Bullit is where he hangs out and they service his car, too.
Now, while those are great motors, I'd still prefer a Porsche -6 in my car for numerous reasons.
1. Cost - 3.2 is readily available and the design work is done
2. No water to mess with
3. THE SOUND - aircooled flat sixes sound like heaven!
4. Support - easy to find people who have Been There Done That
5. More venues to race (non-porsche engines are poo-pood in most P-Car clubs)
6. 320 HP is plenty in a 2000 lb car
To each your own, just my 2 cents.
Posted by: ! Sep 1 2004, 08:23 PM
He needs to spell out his last name before I think he's a troll.....except for my LAST name....it should be at least 3 syllables...
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 09:01 PM
Now, while those are great motors, I'd still prefer a Porsche -6 in my car for numerous reasons.
1. Cost - 3.2 is readily available and the design work is done
2. No water to mess with
3. THE SOUND - aircooled flat sixes sound like heaven!
4. Support - easy to find people who have Been There Done That
5. More venues to race (non-porsche engines are poo-pood in most P-Car clubs)
6. 320 HP is plenty in a 2000 lb car
To each your own, just my 2 cents.
I didn't know I could do that!
I better read the forums more.
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 09:16 PM
And some of you people are so unfriendly! I guess even the 2,000 dollar Porsche owners are douchebags...
Here I am wanting a lightweight, tossable, highpowered 914, and SOME of you people act like asses. I ask questions and get snooty replies. I guess a 2800lbs V8 powered 914 is awesome... But a 2200lbs 914 with a superior BMW motor(The M10 is unbelievably better than the Type IV) and you guys with your plan is TEH suX0RS!11!!!
I like the 914 and I'm going to stick a BMW engine into one. If you're just going to say, "That's stupid, you're might be a troll." Don't post.
If you're going to say something like seanery, who pointed out the Carrera motor might be good and keep weight down, post it.
Can you guys think of many 450hp 2200lb 914s that aren't race cars? I can't...
I apologize to those that helped out, this is not directed to you guys in anyway, you've been alot of help!
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 1 2004, 09:18 PM
Out of curiosity.. How much money do you have to spend on this???
Because if You want to do this.. Buy someone's project.. Get a ride in a v8 914... spend 25k on someones ALREADY done monster (in whatever mix..)
There are a lot of race cars for sale for 10k... Beef em up and you have what you want...
Dont start with a "great car" and make it a race car... Start with a Piece of junk or another race car.... Or buy someone's project..
Again..
How much money do you plan spending??
If you want the fastest 914... build a high revving SBC v8.... Ya, they sound awesome.... Oh and if 500 hp isnt enough.. theres always turbo's for an even COOLER sound....
AGAIN How much money do you have to plan on spending?
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 1 2004, 09:19 PM
v8 914's are about 2300 to 2400 lbs, in stock form...
Then do the usual lightening... and cut off 200 lbs...
Just on the engine you can loose..
34 lbs for an aluminum intake.
40 lbs for aluminum heads
100 (I dont know..) for an aluminum block....
See if there is a v8 or any high hp 914 around you to take a ride in.....
Posted by: ! Sep 1 2004, 09:25 PM
Ooooppsie...WE must be related...he's gettin' pissy. Ask yer questions after a bit of research....lot's of resources on this site and the 'BIRD" board.....we will help ya, but it has been discussed adnaseum (crappy latin)....look at the old posts and the FAQ......
cool yer jets and ask nice......otherwise.... :finger2:
Posted by: airsix Sep 1 2004, 09:46 PM
Here I am wanting a lightweight, tossable, highpowered 914, and SOME of you people act like asses.
Hey Geek. Good to have you join us. I've got tenure so I can say whatever I want and pretty much get away with it, so here goes. New guys around here usually don't start posting right off the bat. They lurk and read and search and then begin posting ever so gradually until they've built up a little acceptance with the group. You kinda 'burst through the doors' with a big entrance. Caught a few peopel off guard. I'm not saying it was wrong - just not what they're used to. Also a lot of people around here are defensive about the TypeIV, so you'll ruffle a few feathers if you imply that the TypeIV is less than magnificent. Like I said - I've got tenure so I can get away with saying it's anemic and sounds like a tractor. Anyway, some people I consider to be friends and generally very nice people have pitched some sh*ty remarks in your direction the past two days and I can only hope they didn't mean them to sound as bad as they did. Make some jokes. Hang around and get to know us. Pretty soon you'll find your place among us. This group is a community much more than most other BBS's you may have been to. A large percentage of the posters here have known each other for years. Even decades. When you barge in with a bunch of loud talk... well you know. So hang around a while and you'll be integrated if you'll give it a chance. Get a 914 and start posting your conversion project pictures and you'll win the crowd over in a hurry (extra points for doing your own fabrication work).
-Ben M. (on my way out to the shop to work on my "exhaust restrictor" project.
)
Posted by: lapuwali Sep 1 2004, 10:09 PM
I better read the forums more.
Not to be pissy myself, but you need to read the replies you've received on this very subject more. My first post on this subject, the very first reply, mentioned the 3.2 911 engine as a possible swap, since it's commonly done. You immediately dismissed the idea because I mentioned the engine was heavier than the Type IV.
I think some of the defensiveness and unfriendliness you're experiencing is due to the fact that you're dissing the car before you even own one. This tends to rub people the wrong way, and makes you sound a bit like a know-it-all asshole, which rubs even more people the wrong way.
Fitting any I4 engine longitudinally into the 914 is going to be a challenge, IMHO. The Chevy V8 just barely fits, and you have to do things like space the engine back AND move the water pump off to the side to make it work w/o cutting the firewall. The one 928 V8 powered 914 has a heavily modified firewall (but the result looks well worth the effort). The 944 engine is known to not fit w/o serious surgery. There's a lot of width in the engine bay, but not a lot of length. Fitting the turbo and its plumbing probably won't be an issue at all if you can make the engine itself fit. Fitting an intercooler AND providing it with good airflow will be an interesting problem.
Honestly, I think just a stock early M3 engine should be quite enough. Anything over 200hp in a 914 will be tremendous.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 1 2004, 10:11 PM
I better read the forums more.
Not to be pissy myself, but you need to read the replies you've received on this very subject more. My first post on this subject, the very first reply, mentioned the 3.2 911 engine as a possible swap, since it's commonly done. You immediately dismissed the idea because I mentioned the engine was heavier than the Type IV.
I think some of the defensiveness and unfriendliness you're experiencing is due to the fact that you're dissing the car before you even own one. This tends to rub people the wrong way, and makes you sound a bit like a know-it-all asshole, which rubs even more people the wrong way.
Fitting any I4 engine longitudinally into the 914 is going to be a challenge, IMHO. The Chevy V8 just barely fits, and you have to do things like space the engine back AND move the water pump off to the side to make it work w/o cutting the firewall. The one 928 V8 powered 914 has a heavily modified firewall (but the result looks well worth the effort). The 944 engine is known to not fit w/o serious surgery. There's a lot of width in the engine bay, but not a lot of length. Fitting the turbo and its plumbing probably won't be an issue at all if you can make the engine itself fit. Fitting an intercooler AND providing it with good airflow will be an interesting problem.
Honestly, I think just a stock early M3 engine should be quite enough. Anything over 200hp in a 914 will be tremendous.
very well put
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 1 2004, 10:59 PM
Oh geez, I forgot to tell you guys about the 914 today...
I got it up on a jack, and its rusted pretty badly. I brought my fat friend with me, well he's kinda fat, but 6'4" so he's heavy, and the car passed the fat man test, but the amount of rust is worrying me. The rear suspension sags, and there is rust around the battery tray area.
I think I'm going to pass unless I can talk him down 2,000 dollars...
I know I will never find a rust free example, but I'll atleast look for the least rusty.
And it still has the FI system.
Posted by: seanery Sep 1 2004, 11:41 PM
the area under the battery that is making the rear (right side I bet) sag is called the "Hell Hole" for good reason. Lotsa rust causes the sag.
Posted by: Mueller Sep 2 2004, 12:16 AM
I only paid $800 for my 914 so piss off, LOL
what the hell do you expect?
a group hug??
you asked for advice/opinions.....you start off blasting the shifting qualities or lack of on the 914, then you criticize the stock type IV motor and give us a history lesson on why BMW engines are so superior....it's like me going to your house and telling you how f'd up your place is and that I've slept in nicer Motel 6's.....I'm all for an interesting engine swap, hell, anyone would love to have an 180 lb motor that is capable of producing 300 or more HP, but with what you've written, I don’t think you have the mechanical skill or knowledge to pull it off...who knows you might prove me wrong and build something nicer than I have (which isn't very hard to do right now, LOL)....
Ben, I've seen the Chrysler 4 cylinder turbo motor in a 914 (bolted up to the 901), and I'm pretty sure he didn't cut the firewall.....looking at some pictures, the M10 motor looks tiny and should fit in much easier than my VR6 motor
spend more money on a clean chassis, doing rust repair work sucks
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 2 2004, 01:28 AM
I don't really need mechanical knowledge, I need a plasma cutter and some weldling materials...
I have good enough know how about mechanics to get it done, if someone starts something they have to finish it right? Especially if they're paying for it...
This goes back to my schematics. I have software for my BMWs that tells me everything about the car. Where every single nut and bolt goes, and how every peice of electrical machinery works. For a project like this I would need something like that, some sort of schematics of the 914. Maybe if I could find some manual that Porsche mechanics used. Do you guys know anything like what I'm talking about. I know the 914 is old and its VERY unlikely it has schematics on computer, but there should be a book somewhere.
What it looks like I'm going to do is read the forums, wait for the right 914 to come along, get the engine built(if I cant' find a 914, I'll use a 2002), and then spend alot of time in my garage... There really is nothing I can screw up, if I do something wrong, I'd know. Just takes patience, and I have that for cars.
Now, about the rust. I know all 914s have it, is there rust I can get away without repairing? I don't know what the crucial zones are.
For the intercooler and radiator, I think I have an idea of how to mount them in the rear, but I need to look at a 914 alot more carefully to see if it is possible. I think I am going to use 2 smaller intercoolers rather than one larger intercooler, but I'll have to see. My friend suggested mounting them on the sides and have custom quarter panels made... He also said to stick the radiator right behind my head... I think he was kidding about both... 
I cracked up just picturing it.
Thanks.
Edit: What about the differential? Did the 914 come with different ratios? I'd like bellow 3.3:1, if it exists. <_< Are there any interchangeable diffs off other P-Cars?
Posted by: lapuwali Sep 2 2004, 08:37 AM
There are some other ring gears, but the ratio spread isn't wide. The pinion is part of the gearbox output shaft, so you would need to change that if the ratio spread were wide. You don't really want something below 3.3:1. The stock ratio is something like 8.5:1. The internal gearing on the 901 is very different from BMW gearing. 3.3:1 would only be useful if you're taking the car to Bonneville and plan to use a push truck. The 901 does have a zillion alternate ratios available (this was Porsche's primary racing gearbox throughout the 60s). Do a search here and you'll find a gearing chart with all of the alternate ratios.
Posted by: Jeroen Sep 2 2004, 09:43 AM
I tried real hard not to post, but I can resist no longer
You get snotty remarks, basically because you ask for them
Not because you say the type4 or other pieces/parts of the 914 are crap... We don't care about any of that. 914-ers have thick skins and are used to that (on the porsche-scale, most consider the 914 to be somewhere down in the gutter )
It's your BS remarks about things like it needs to rev over 9.5K, turbo, 1500bhp, blah, blah, blah... that will get you into trouble here.
Most people here have "been there, done that" and know a few things about these cars.
Some of them worked, raced or converted them for as long as the car is around, so they should know a thing or 2 about what works and what doesn't
We've had guys like you come and go here before. You come off with BS claims and a "know it all" attitude. Stuff like that may impress people on a BMW, Honda or other rice-racer forum, but here people will just laugh their asses off and tell you to piss off
So there you have it...
Back on topic:
Like I mentioned earlier... even IF you can build that 225bhp/litre engine that only weighs 30#, how are you gonna get that kind of power to the wheels?
A 901 box won't hold up for sure, and even a converted 915 (bring serious money) probably won't last long.
To handle that kind of power. You'd probably be looking at a modified 930 tranny (most likely not hip enuf for you because it only has 4 gears and wouldn't work in your case because of your high reving small powerband engine either).
More likely you'll need a late G50 type transmission (again bring serious money and then some to get it running in a midengined car).
I don't think I've heard you mention 1 thing about suspension upgrades and very little about brake upgrades.
Typical for any boy-racer, because you'd think that huge bhp's will win a race.
People here know different and will learn how to drive first, build a good suspension/brakes second and get more power once they know they can handle it
Another reason (for me) to think you're just full of BS.
For now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, just a little longer and see what happens next...
About the electronic parts catalog and even the factory manual... yes, they exist
you'll have to ask nicely and someone here may point you in the right direction
Oh, btw... Sean was wrong about the 3.2 it makes 230 (not 320) bhp in stock trim
Don't know too much about BMW's (nor do I care about them) but IIRC that's what the recent 3.2 3series BMW puts out, so BMW is only like 2 decades behind 
cheers,
Jeroen
Posted by: ArtechnikA Sep 2 2004, 09:45 AM
the stock R&P ratio is 4,429:1 (7:31 tooth ratio)
due to the torque convertor, SportoMatic R&P's are a little taller (8:32 IIRC).
Posted by: Mueller Sep 2 2004, 09:51 AM
about the only thing available for the 914 is found here:
http://914world.com/downloads/914_manuals/
the nice thing about the 914 is how simple it is, even the wiring is not too bad, I've pulled the entire harness out and re-installed it just using a copy of the factory wiring diagram (next time I'll label everything to save me a days worth of work)
you'd be surprised how easy the swaps are, normally for 90% of the swaps, the only cutting needed is just a few holes in the front trunk (air inlet and air exit for the radiator), the only welding needed is for the engine mount (and exhaust perhaps)
Posted by: lapuwali Sep 2 2004, 11:04 AM
My eyes...I even misread your reply, thinking you were correcting my number to 7.3:1 from 8.5:1.
3.3:1 still sounds absurdly tall to me, esp. for someone intent on building a 10,000rpm engine...
Posted by: seanery Sep 2 2004, 11:14 AM
oops, sorry bout the typo. 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 2 2004, 11:29 AM
i think he should do some huge hig revving 1500hp engine in a 2002. better yet, i want a v8 2002
Posted by: Sammy Sep 2 2004, 12:26 PM
My V8 914 weighed around 2400 pounds and I beat up on M3s and a modified M coupe (barely) on the track. My car was tossable and quick and fun.
I really like the M series inline 6, but I I'm scratching my head as to why you are so impressed with the inline 4.
It aint that special when compared to other modern engines Re: previous post on honda S2000.
Ok students, take notes, this part is on the test:
a 914 is......
a small, light, 30 year old car that is very fun to drive. Not because it has a fart pipe or powered by whatever stickers, but because it is so nimble, basic, and quirky. They aint fast (in a straight line) unless you put a large flat 6 or V8 in them. They are momentum cars that feel like a go-kart.
The shifting isn't comparable to a modern car, they have squeaks, rattles, wind noise, and are a bit "strange" and eccentric and require quite a bit on maintenence, they don't have power brakes or power windows or power steering, those are the reasons we love them.
If you love the 914 for the same reason, welcome to the club, you will fit right in.
if you hate the 914 for those reasons and want to try and change the car so that it is no longer a 914, don't buy one because you will not be happy with a 914 no matter how much you modify it, ever.
a 914 will always be a 914 unless you replace everything with parts from a different car, then it becomes a different car and isn't a 914. In that case isn't it easier just to buy a different car in the first place?
What I'm trying to say is, some of the reasons you dissed the 914 are the same reasons we like em. It is rather complicated and expensive to change these cars,
I suggest you get to know the car better before diving into something you may regret.
Posted by: gklinger Sep 2 2004, 12:48 PM
Great post Sammy.
I've had my '73 for 6 years now - driven nearly every day. Is it fast? Not hardly... Is it comfortable? Not in Phoenix without A/C... Would I ever get rid of it? Not on your life...
I’d advise actually getting a car and driving it for a while. You just might find that you like the underpowered little sucker. If not, then do what you want. Bring dollars…
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 2 2004, 01:50 PM
I don't see what's wrong with a higher revving turbo charged I-4 that can put out great power. If your worried about getting the power to the wheels, I'll find someway. In the mean time I would just turn the boost down.
Because my project sounds really ambitious you guys don't like it?
Suspension and Brakes come later, those aren't the hard parts to do.
Here are the characteristics of a 914... In my opinion.
-Good Looking
-Fun
-Tossable
-Great Handling
-Agile
-Light
-Sloppy Shifting
-Quick in an odd way
-Slow most of the time
The only thing I'd be changing would be the last 3. It would be devastingly fast. I'm not changing anything else. Except maybe the seats to something with strong bolster support.
BTW, the most recent 3.2l BMW engine puts out 333hp, it's in the latest M3... 100hp/per liter, natually aspirated.
You people have no clue what I'm about. I'm probably one of the most anti-ricer people you'll ever meet. I'm talking about installing a GERMAN turbo charged I-4 that can put out great power, and you people call me a ricer and mention fart pipes and stickers!
You guys obviously don't approve of this project. Don't say because it isn't possible, because anything can be done to a car with work.
Did you guys expect me to come and say the 914 is a great shifting car with a strong engine? I came in trying to remedy those problems.
Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 2 2004, 01:56 PM
a done, well sorted, high end car in the classifieds here, is what you will spend anyway. less down time too.
kevin
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 2 2004, 01:58 PM
kevin
But then I don't learn anything about the 914, and I tend to enjoy the work I have done.
Posted by: Sammy Sep 2 2004, 02:02 PM
Ok troll, knock yourself out. Do it and them come back and show us what you did.
BTW some of us have done some very interesting things to 914s, not just talk about it.
Posted by: Jeroen Sep 2 2004, 07:06 PM
Maybe you're not a rice boy, but you sure sound like one...
Obviously, you have no idea what so ever what kind of conversions are already running out there.
It's just that you sound like you are absolutely clueless what you're getting yourself into.
Being uneducated can be fixed, but being ignorant...
Or maybe you could just not rev it too high (put a block of wood under your throttle pedal)
cheers,
Jeroen
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 3 2004, 05:28 PM
Let me reiterate my post.. Which you didnt seem to bother reading...
How much money do you plan on spending?[SIZE=7]
Answer that. please...
Now... We dont mind turbo 4's... See anyone dissing Fiids subaru turbo project? No....
Heck we dont even mind super high hp engine's... One guy is running 915hp in a TT SBC....
And NO, suspension and brakes dont come "later" they come IMEDIATELY AFTER, because you WILL need them or else you'll break something or do something bad....
Its like what Porsche did when they turbocharged the 944... They didnt just slap on a turbo... If you do something to one part of the car, it changes another part of the car... They did everything from a 944 to a turbo... Aerodynamics, brakes, suspension, tires, trani, ect.
You will in the end do alot more to the car than you originally plan... Therefore why not start with a car that someone's done alot to already? Then just swap in your engine?
Posted by: airsix Sep 3 2004, 05:45 PM
Me either. Everybody loves an early 911S, and what was it? A small displacement high-reving "peaky" rocket.
Grab tools
and get to work. People will stop flippin you sh*t after you post a few project pictures to show you're not all talk.-Ben M. (counting down to a marathon 914 modifiaction weekend of my own)
Posted by: lagunero Sep 3 2004, 07:01 PM
I new it got good once I saw the hits on this generic named thread.
Although money usually dictates what you go with, advice utilized does effect the end result. Got cash, do it. Big plans, then save the money and the drama.
Posted by: bryanthompson Sep 4 2004, 11:07 AM
Here I am wanting a lightweight, tossable, highpowered 914, and SOME of you people act like asses.
.....New guys around here usually don't start posting right off the bat. They lurk and read and search and then begin posting ever so gradually until they've built up a little acceptance with the group. .....
That pretty much describes me right now. absorbing all the knowledge I can before tackling the rustbucket...
Is there any way to speed up the acceptance process, though? Or is being a 944 owner a bad mark on my record
Just kidding... i'm a happy lurker.
Posted by: J P Stein Sep 4 2004, 11:38 AM
That pretty much describes me right now. absorbing all the knowledge I can before tackling the rustbucket...
Is there any way to speed up the acceptance process, though? Or is being a 944 owner a bad mark on my record
We're all dreamers to varing degrees. Some actually convert their dreams to parts "flying in formation".
"Acceptance" by the group isn't the key(as I see it), rather, do you accept this group....warts & all... and want to keep coming back.
Some times the
flag pops up.....just like in real life
Posted by: airsix Sep 4 2004, 02:26 PM
We're a bunch of kids at heart. Pictures. This crowd loves pictures. You post a couple of before-and-after shots of your repair/restoration/modification handy work and you're in like a back-stage pass. You'll have people emailing asking YOU questions before you can say torque-wrench.
4 types around here*:
People who like 914's
Boys/Girls who own 914's
Men/Women who race 914's
Ledgends who build 914's.
-Ben M.
Posted by: Andyrew Sep 4 2004, 04:35 PM
944's are cool...
We have 2 turbo's.. SoloRacer has a turbo, and some other have 944's, and 928's..Dere great!
We dont speak of the 9elebens though.. Except when there parts cars.. There great!!
Posted by: jwade Sep 4 2004, 08:20 PM
I agree with Andyrew:
HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU PLAN ON SPENDING?
It also seems like $7000 is a lot for a car with questionable rust.
But if you can throw buckets of money at it, knock yourself out.
john
Posted by: nebreitling Sep 4 2004, 09:01 PM
even starting with a $2k roller, this is easily going to be a $15k-$25k project (new parts/no labor/diy-except the engine) if done "right".
roller ~2k
rust repair ~1k
cage/stiffening 0-2k
paint???? 2-6k
engine 5-10k???
tranny 4-7k???
conversion shit (radiator, etc.) 1-2k
interior 1k
wheels/tires 1k+
suspension 2k
and tons of misc shit ($$$$$$)
if you've got mad skills and patience to slowly aquire parts, don't mind using used parts, or don't care how 'finished' the final result is, you could cut those costs in half or more.
i say go for it, have a blast! people aren't giving you shit because your project stinks. they're giving you shit because expectations-without-the-research attitude. but, once you tear into your project, people will give you respect.
Posted by: redshift Sep 5 2004, 01:03 AM
BTW some of us have done some very interesting things to 914s, not just talk about it.
sammy
Posted by: redshift Sep 5 2004, 01:13 AM
I've been driving a 914, or another for damned near 24 years, or something. I've had them all 1.7 ,1.8, 2.0, 383/425 heh, and fantasized about everything else, including a fire sale on a twin turbo 935 motor for $22k once..
A BMW motor would be violating the Prime Objective.
If you have $50,000, and a tub to start will, go for it. Make sure you save along the way, cause your going to need another $20k to finish it 'just right'.
M 
Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 5 2004, 08:10 AM
the more i think about it, the more cents you plan makes. a big motor first is def the way to approach the project. if you have your heart set on a bmw engine, howsabout a V-12? the new brakes, clutch, konis, springs, bushings, fresh transmission, cv joints(going nla) and other upgrades are the LAST items you want to worry about. in fact, buy all new seals and paint it first. that way you'll have a great looking car setting in the garage for a year or 3. don't be offended. we just have a lot of experience with "gonna do that" projects on our cars. get an ebay roller, don't worry about the rust, the longs, the hell hole, the rust, the rear suspension ears, the rust, the bondo, the rust, the wiring, or the cracked windshield. did i mention don't worry about the rust? you'll have a pretty nice $12k car, that you might sell for $9k, for $40K.
kevin
Posted by: Headrage Sep 7 2004, 04:01 PM
WUH HAPPIN? No more posts? Give up?
Posted by: ArtechnikA Sep 7 2004, 04:43 PM
what's to post?
once again, the choices are:
big 4
Porsche 6
V8
which covers stuff for which there is prior engineering, and
something else, you're on your own.
it's your car, do what you want.
oh - and "don't tell me, show me"
that about cover it ?
Posted by: Headrage Sep 7 2004, 04:53 PM
I stayed out of it. It was just interesting read.
Posted by: redshift Sep 7 2004, 07:47 PM
Like reading a book about psycho-neurosis.
M
Posted by: soloracer Sep 7 2004, 09:05 PM
I was thinking of putting this engine in my 914. I realize it will be costly to install and require much modification but my budget is unlimited. Here it is:
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: soloracer Sep 7 2004, 09:06 PM
Or maybe this engine:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: soloracer Sep 7 2004, 09:18 PM
I'm looking for some constructive advice. So you nit picking, doubting, low lifes can just leave this theard alone..... :finger2:
Posted by: bondo Sep 7 2004, 09:20 PM
I saw an Opel GT on ebay a while back with an Allison V12 in it.. They lengthened it by 4 or 5 feet, and it was still sitting right behind the driver. (an Allison V12 is a P-51 Mustang engine) Proof anything can be done with enough insanity coupled with enough money
Posted by: redshift Sep 7 2004, 09:25 PM
Yes I recall that engine, in that crappy car.
If it was a Merlin, it would have gone for $60k, on buy it now
M
Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 7 2004, 09:30 PM
i thinnk the troll went back under the bridge
Posted by: redshift Sep 7 2004, 09:31 PM
Nah, he's here some, and reading... I think he's about to catch the 3.0 bug.
M
Posted by: nebreitling Sep 7 2004, 10:03 PM
lmao!!!!!
i'd only want that 20-liter twin turbo if it reved to 17k rpm.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 7 2004, 10:06 PM
can a 901 handle that?
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 7 2004, 11:13 PM
M
Damn it, the 3.0 is to my liking, I've been thinking about it.
I'm here, I had just forgoten about this thread. I passed up the 914, it wasn't worth the price.
How much money do I want to spend? Whatever is needed to get what I want done. I have been looking a buying a 911 SC or 1988 M3 lately though, so this might need to be postponed. One of those would set me back 15,000 bucks.
Yes... The troll...
is still here.
Oh, and here's a picture of my living quarters.
Posted by: fiid Sep 7 2004, 11:18 PM
alright - I'll bite - where the hell is the bridge??
Posted by: neo914-6 Sep 8 2004, 03:04 AM
GreekDriver,
I'm glad you have a sense of humor, this is a tough crowd.
Here's another choice, if you can drive like you're in economy class...
Felix
Attached image(s)
Posted by: redshift Sep 8 2004, 04:40 AM
ROFLMAO!
I guessed the 3.0, AND you actually do belong here... you are going to need a titled rust pile, and make sure to post off topic stuff whenever possible!
WELCOME! lol!
Miles
Posted by: GreekDriver Sep 12 2004, 02:52 AM
I can't tell ya where my bridge is, those god damn tourists are all over the damn place.
Anyways, a search for 3.0 or six or swap, really didn't bring up anything I could use... How much does a 3.0L motor cost? And what would a performance rebuild go for?
Posted by: nebreitling Sep 12 2004, 11:02 AM
$5-6k running with high mileage (100-200k). the more popular swap is the 3.2. these engines will go for a long time if taken care of.
a performance rebuild? bring buckets of cash. sky's the limit.
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