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Posted by: groot Sep 1 2004, 09:35 AM

I used this past weekend's Waterford Hills race as my first test session for the new car.

They threw this picture on the Waterford Hills website. Just thought I'd share it.



Learned a lot this weekend, like how some lug nuts don't fit some wheels, how I needed more front flare (notice the flare extensions) and how much I can squeeze out of my Optima before I don't get enough juice to run (no alternator). More learning to come on 11-12 Sept, but this time at Mid-Ohio.

Posted by: seanery Sep 1 2004, 09:42 AM

great shot!
Looks like fun!

Posted by: brant Sep 1 2004, 09:45 AM

wow,

NICE picture

brant

Posted by: synthesisdv Sep 1 2004, 09:58 AM

Looks mean, no sure I'd want to see you coming up behind me.

So how long could you run on the optima? Did it start missing when it ran low?

Congrats on getting her on the track.

dr

Posted by: brant Sep 1 2004, 10:05 AM

nother thing...

was the car a previous log book car?
I thought they weren't going to allow any more chop roofed cars?

wow, I love that picture.
brant

Posted by: groot Sep 1 2004, 10:40 AM

I ran 3 track sessions and multiple starts in between sessions on one charge. Then it started missing, ironically during the start of the race.... the first dry session. So, I pulled off right after the start. It missed so bad that I didn't think I could make it around the track and at that point I didn't realize that was the problem. I purchased a "jump pack" and plan on using it to start the car and I should be able to easily make it through a weekend on one charge.

Brand new race car. I'd paste my "before" picture, but I haven't figured out how to pull an image off of my computer and stuff it up here.

SCCA still allows chop tops, they're just trying to figure out how to deal with partial width main hoops, particularly the car's that don't have main hoops that go at least 50% across. Since this is a full width hoop, this type of cage is not being debated, which certainly influenced my decision on which type of main hoop to build.

Thanks for the kind words.

Posted by: SLITS Sep 1 2004, 10:51 AM

Nice looking and mean too!

REAL RACERS DRIVE IN THE ELEMENTS

the rest of the wimps go hide in their trailers.

Oh, BTW, I stole the image for a screensaver

Posted by: theol00 Sep 1 2004, 10:54 AM

nice car! - what's the wet stuff?

Posted by: URY914 Sep 1 2004, 11:56 AM

That looks nice.

Love racing in the rain.

Paul

Posted by: brant Sep 1 2004, 05:07 PM

Kevin,

what is your weight sir?

brant

Posted by: Jeroen Sep 1 2004, 05:15 PM

Kevin, please post more pics/details of your car. It looks like a lot of fun

Posted by: d914 Sep 1 2004, 05:17 PM

ok, I'm being a chicken when it comes to chopping my top. I now have a cracked windshield and have to make a decision. So how do ya like the open 914 and how was it in the weather.....

I have a est. on the fab work, not too bad.. its an emotional isuue that I'm working though. EVERYONE has said chop it!!

By the way, Nice Car!!

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 1 2004, 05:20 PM

exactly what im doing with the flared roller i got from jenny's brother.

Posted by: Racer Chris Sep 1 2004, 05:24 PM

Way to go Kevin,
Good to see you on track!
I never go more than 2 sessions without charging my battery, and always before a race.

The SCCA is not allowing any new open style GT cars, but since the 914 is not a new car one can still race GT2 or GT3 with an open 914.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 1 2004, 05:38 PM

Kevin, Looks good!

The engine is coming together! after a week long vacation I came home to the first batch of parts for it!!

Get all those bugs worked out before you get MassIve power!

Posted by: jgiroux67 Sep 1 2004, 11:03 PM

Nice Car! I like that helmet too.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Sep 2 2004, 12:40 AM

I see NO openings for oil coolers or brake ducting.

You have some kickass NEW secret you want to share ??


B

Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 05:52 AM

Right headlight is actually mesh, so there's the oil cooler opening. I haven't run brake ducts yet.

Weight is 1920, after the race, which is the 2004 EP weight for the car. I'm able to carry the extra weight in fuel, so I'll be spot on 1870 for the 2005 weight. And I can still go with fiberglass hood, trunk and rear bumper.

I did want to learn the limits of my battery. I have some experience with these Optimas, and they are impressive. We used them in our solar car in 1993 because they were head and shoulders better than any other battery.... and we tested 20+ different batteries. Anyway, now I know how far I can push it.

This was my first time racing in an open top car. I was worried about visibility and seating position. I had to really lean the seat back to get my head low enough to get the main hoop near the targa bar (rule says your helmet must be 2" below the top of the main hoop and within an imaginary diagonal line between the main hoop and front hoop). Anyway, I can't see either fender where I'm seated, but I got used to it pretty quickly. It's sort of an odd feeling, though. When you're seated in it stationary you feel way far back and low (even for a 914), but when your moving, you feel really close to the dash panel. Anyway, my worries about this were unfounded.

I've got some construction photos, but I haven't figured out how to post from my computer without first throwing the photos up on a website, so if someone can share that bit of info, I can throw them up here.

Posted by: Jeroen Sep 2 2004, 05:58 AM

Kevin, check the FAQ (link at the very top of the page) on how to post pictures...

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 08:35 AM

Thanks. I don't know why I missed that.

Ok, here's what the car looked like in Mar.


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Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 08:49 AM

More pics. I'll post some more "in progress" pics from my home computer.


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Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 08:49 AM

More


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Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 2 2004, 10:04 AM

Kevin, email me as many asyou can for your page on my updated site. We are working hard on the site every night this week!

Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 10:09 AM

I'll put something together tonight and send it to you.

Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 05:24 PM

More


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Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 05:24 PM

More


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Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 05:25 PM

more


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Posted by: groot Sep 2 2004, 05:26 PM

msg


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Posted by: Thorshammer Sep 2 2004, 06:23 PM

Kevin,

Glad to see you made it, and under the bar (roll that is). Still working on my EP 914-6, have made some major progress, but still delayed. Just got my cylinder heads back from port development with John Andruk of Circle Performance in Brockton MA. Great job, well worth the wait. I also had to modify the front flairs currently available. The EP front track is wider than the FP car, and it really is close. Lastly, I pick up the Hewland gearbox on Friday (tomorrow), geared it for my local track I normally test at (Loudon NH). Maybe if we are lucky and Bontempi, Wicker all go to the Runoffs maybe we could have a 914 tent in the main Paddock. I'd love to thumb my nose at the Toyota, Nissan, Mazda "factory" guys.

Erik Madsen

Wrenching as we speak!

Posted by: groot Sep 3 2004, 05:45 AM

Eric,

I'm with you on this.

Let me know how it goes with the Hewland. I'm going to order one early next year, if I can't find a used one to work for me. I'd be interested in some feedback regarding the linkage.

Posted by: Thorshammer Sep 3 2004, 09:01 AM

Kevin,

Actually, an FP competitor, Ed Givler from Rockland Mass has installed a Hewland Mark 9 in his 914. Ed is a friend of mine, and his install was fairly straight forward.

The Axles are cheap and easy to get, the CV joints are type 1 VW with the outers being 914. 33 Spline. His setup is different than mine, his linkage goes over the top of the motor, and mine goes under. I have an earlier mark 8 Hewland with VW supervee rear linkage. Ed has the formula ford style that comes off of the side. I was able to make my shift rod run very straight but use more apex joints than Ed had to. But it seems to shift (with Lovely wife turning stub axles) well. If you go on Taylor racing website, there is alot of usefull information. Taylor initially told me I would have to install mark 5 shafts and gears they are bigger. But The cost to do the trans new with a supercase and so forth was over 7K, which I could not afford. So I am going to try it the mark 8 stuff, and change the fluid every race weekend. If it works and I don't have any failures, I will REM process all the gears and install ceramic bearings on the shafts. I have photos of both installations if you care to see them.

When you are looking for a Hewland, you need one that does not have the starter area cut off, This is usual for formula Ford application I think. Also, figure out what you want for gears and ring and pinion. The stock 914 is a 7:31, so I would try to stay with that, but if you run into an 8:31/35 it will work. You can use the transmission as a five speed with 1st as a racing gear, but only if you get a shaft with an integral 1st gear, and then you still must be careful when downshifting into it, The gear is really small and can't be abused much. One huge issue is the release bearing. I am trying a centered bearing on the input shaft, and Ed is using a slave cylinder mounted outboard of the clutch/transmission casing, and the standard release bearing cross shaft.
After you have shifted one of these transmissions, you will never go back. Last thing and I will leave you, 2 things really, Rick Hilland and RIC racing in Bow NH does my transmission work, he is fair, knowledgable and will treat you more like a partner than a customer. I highly recommend him. When putting the car in gear they grind, so start it in 1st, or warm up the motor and then shut it off then into first and restart the engine. Hope to see you on the track in the future.

Erik Madsen

Posted by: groot Sep 3 2004, 11:06 AM

Great info.

Pics would be awesome.

I've had the same conversations with Taylor regarding the Mk5 gears and cost. In the end do you think you saved money going this route?

Posted by: Thorshammer Sep 6 2004, 06:35 PM

Well, Yes and no,


I can't stand the way the standard gearbox shifts, even after working for Force racing in Missouri where the Ultimate transmission was developed. You may remember the ads "can you upshift hard and fast?" Yeah that was us. Even after modifying the trans it still shifts like shit. i did some initial work with a guy to put dawg ring gears into a 914 box and utilize the standard shift linkage, but the prototype cost was going to be about 10K and a 5 speed box about 5k with gearsets in the 250.00 range. If I had access to this board back then I may have been able to make it go, but the Hewland is the only choice. Will send you or post some photos this week.

Erik

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 05:24 AM

There you all are! I knew there were some more people in the country that had EP 914s and 914-6s. Here’s a shot of my EP 914-6.


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Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 06:00 AM

On another note, would you all please show me your SCCA legal oil cooler configurations? I mounted mine, as you can see, in front of the front bulkhead (In SCCA you are not allowed to cut the front bulkhead) with about a 2 inch area behind it and there just isn’t adequate flow through the cooler. I need to work on that and a new front air damn as well as many other things this winter.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 6 2004, 06:18 AM

Welcome nein14-6,

I saw your car at the '03 Parade in Florida.
Very nice!

Paul

Posted by: groot Oct 6 2004, 06:31 AM

Cool. Do you run Summit Point and VIR?

Scroll up a bit and you'll see how I mounted my cooler. I use the left headlight to pull in air and duct it (dryer duct from Home Depot) to the area where the fuel tank used to be.

So far, I'm cooling it way too much, but I won't really know where I stand until I put in Jake's engine.

Posted by: MJHanna Oct 6 2004, 06:43 AM

Taylor is one of the best suppliers I’ve worked with. Craig is a great resource if you are having issues. I was having problems with losing my clutch, (Tilton) on the G-50. Craig said bring it and let’s see if we can figure it out. Long story short, they went out of their way to help figure out the problem and get me back on the track. Course they are local to me but really run a nice clean outfit. I don’t run a bunch of stickers on my car but I do run a Taylor sticker. Just a happy customer.

Posted by: groot Oct 6 2004, 07:38 AM

I've heard nothing but good things about Taylor, too..... except about the price. But, adding up the costs, they're actually pretty reasonable. That doesn't eliminate sticker shock.

I plan on having them build my Mk 9. I'm in the midst of picking ratios now, so I can get them started.

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 08:59 AM

Paul, Thanks and Yes, I mostly run at Summit Point but have ran on most of the tracks in the North/Mid East.

Kevin, Yes I see where you pull the air in from. Keith P. in NJ told me that he used a similar setup when he ran FP. Les Handly uses that headlight to pipe air to the fan for additional cooling to the cylinders. I use the front fog light grill to pipe air to the fan through home depot stove pipe. I was also looking into those tube style oil coolers, have you seen them?

Posted by: flyloki Oct 6 2004, 10:05 AM

Groot-

What color is that?

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 11:39 AM

Groot,

I am finally making some progress, Hope to make it to a open track day in a month or so, before the winter sets in. Craig is a great resource, but pricey. Good guy though. I am posting some pics of my car and the shift lever and engine bulkhead mount, engine plate.


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Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 11:41 AM

Engine mount,

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 11:42 AM

Screwed up sorry,


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Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 11:44 AM

Inside engine compartment trans/engine mount


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Posted by: groot Oct 6 2004, 12:19 PM

Ford Sonic Blue. It was on the Focus SVT and then migrated to other Ford cars recently.

The tube coolers I've seen are water to oil intercoolers. But, if you have a picture or a link post it.


Eric,

I love the shifter, that's great. The car's looking awesome. But, it does look like you have too many cylinders.......

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 03:07 PM

EP 2.0 liter six coming at ya big daddy

If it will make the HP numbers it can be a good car, but the carbs and valve sizes are the limiting factor, as well as the brakes. The spec line should read.

...... 46 mm weber type carbs with 42mm venturis
2.0 liter "s" head with 46mm intake and 42 mm exhaust valves allowed
Alternate front brake caliper Alloy "S" caliper with 3.5 inch bolt hole spacing.

This would enable this car to run near the front. Cure the overheated brakes, cure the underpowered engine. etc....

I thought you might want to see the carbon fiber oil sump enclosure.


Erik


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Posted by: Brett W Oct 6 2004, 06:02 PM

Hey Eric

You got your 6inches of clearence between the top if the windscreen and the top of your dry sump tank? Looks good though. You didn't relocate the rear mounts you just stiffened them up a lot?

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 06:16 PM

What is the rule about shifters/ shift linkage in EP?

I will look for one of the tube type coolers, I have a catalog in front of me that has one in it from setrab. It looks like it goes in line with a brake cooling duck.

I have sent several letters to SCCA requesting more allowances for us. The last one, I asked for 914-6 GT spec (46 webers, twin plug, bigger brakes, hole in front trunk, etc), that would have been great. I get denied every time. I have been doing enough shakedown at Summit Point though that I know that the car could be competitive in it’s current configuration, well at least at Summit Point. The brakes are fine as long as you have adequate cooling. The motor is a little weak, I agree, I figure 190hp is about the most you are going to get out of that configuration. Maybe if there are enough of us out there, we can get them to change the rules.

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 06:17 PM

Is that what six inches looks like, Damn, I've been lying to women my whole life.

The rear suspension pickup points are raised 3 inches, by Chris Foley. he did a really nice job. I also did coil overs in the front, hopefully I can get the thing mostly plumbed this weekend. We'll see. A picture of Limberts flairs, the fronts are'nt very wide, and may be a problem, but we'll see. Wish the quality was better.

If I had to do it again, I would buy sheridans, but the front is too wide for EP/FP?? Kind of between a rock and a hard place. Does anyone Including brad have a pic of the HPH flairs???


Erik


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2004, 06:24 PM

I dont have pic on this computer of our flares.. if I get home before Midnight.. I'll post from home.

You will end up needing larger shifter U-joints. Those are too small. They work well in a small lightweight open wheeled car.. but dont seem to work very well in our tub cars.

Looks good Eric. I spoke with Ron Wicker today. His dad died a few weeks back. I wondered why I hadnt heard from him.


B

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 6 2004, 06:24 PM

Good to see it coming together finally Erik!
(You need to adjust the aspect ratio on your avatar.)

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 06:25 PM

Thorshammer, what’s your plan on headers?

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 6 2004, 06:31 PM

I just noticed Erik,
Your cage looks different than last time I saw it.
Good for you!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2004, 06:34 PM

Erik (got the speeling correct this time)

Do you like the OBerg filters ?? I have used them in the past. I thought it was a good idea.. easy to inspect/take apart.


B

Posted by: Brett W Oct 6 2004, 06:36 PM

My rule book is a couple of seasons old but the last time I checked the Suspension prep for the 914-6 is Restricted. There is no moving of the suspension mounting points. Are you ready to drop the six and make it a four cylinder car?

I have a hard time believing the Six can make the HP to be competetive at the weight, that is why I choes not to do the six route. I don't have as much latitude with the restricted suspension prep and IT engine prep.

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 06:40 PM

The Oberg is fantastic! It definitely saves your oil cooler. I lunch a motor earlier this year, BTW don’t buy a used race motor, and I had a pile of titanium from the valves sitting on the screen but nothing got through

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2004, 06:40 PM

Yep. I was a little concerned about the 3 inch raising myself, but I havent read a rule book in over a year now. Foley.. give us the scoop.


B

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 06:41 PM

They lifted the restricted suspension rules and the IT head prep this year. Weight was also lowered

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2004, 06:42 PM

I normally run the Canton Mecca setup with the paper filter. Easy to cut open. I have had problems with the Oberg sealing (but I still like them)


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2004, 06:43 PM

nein 14... (first give me your name so I dont feel stupid...LOL)

I can get together EVERY 914 racer you have ever seen to help on rule changes IF you think it will help.


B

Posted by: Brett W Oct 6 2004, 06:45 PM

So what is the six stuck with right now? Any restrictions other than the carb size?

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 06:55 PM

Lets see,

Brad, They are 5/8 in every place except the shift tower, where they are 1/2. Remember I am shifting a Hewland, not a porsche trans. Plus the centerline of the linkage is completely parralel and only deviates 3 inches. I hope it will be okay. Will be good to see the flares and pricing too.

914-6 used to be Limited prep, so maybe your GCR is out of date but has been a full prep car for 1 year. So anything goes, and it is that is going.

Chris,

Yeah, had to change the cage a bit. Thanks for the splendid work you did for me. Anyone wanting to build a racecar really should contact Chris for the rear suspension mod, it really is done well. Oh, and is reasonably priced.

Headers; The headers on the car are from Mark Eschucie, they will get burns stainless collectors on the ends and then come together under the Hewland then exit Right and left through two Yoshimura Stainless Steel Exhaust cannisters 2 1/2 inches inlet and outlet.

As for the rest of the car. I am looking for a couple things.
-Really good Spark plug wires for an electromotive. I know I will have to make them, but an unsure of where to get the pieces reasonable and also with the seals to seal up the air shroud.
- Who has really good info on cannon plugs, where to get them, how to size them, I need a couple, one for the motor, and one for the Data system.


This is the biggest thing of all.

A few months back someone had used CATIA or IDEAS or PRO E to model a 914 suspension along with the rear suspension. It would be worth some information swapping as to what was found and what their intentions were. I would like to change the front suspension on my car next winter, and have some a good idea of what I am going to do, does anyone remember who was doing that?

Thanks,


Erik

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 06:56 PM

Sorry, my name is Rob Gordon

I think SCCA needs to see more of these cars run before they can make additional changes. Besides, Steve Limbert finished mid-pack this year at the runoffs in his 914-6

The restrictions are 34mm chokes, stock 914-6 valves (42 and 38mm, I think??), 12:1 cr, single plug, 1mm over bore on 2.0L. That’s about it.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2004, 06:59 PM

Thanks Rob,


Just trying to keep track of all the EP/FP/GT2/GT3 guy's around the USA.

5/8 is plenty big enough. I commented about them knowing that you had a Hewland (the Hewlands are harder on the joints than the Porsche box...so I have found..)



B

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 6 2004, 07:00 PM

Mark Eschucie makes great headers and builds fast motors, good choice! It looks like everyone is going the way of Burns lately as well

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 6 2004, 07:04 PM

What Rob said.

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 07:16 PM

You guys key so fast I can't even take a crap without missing something.

Brad I use the oberg copy, but have known them to leak especially when the oil is cold and thick.

The restriction for the six is Production trim for the motor Full prep, rods cams any compression ratio, used to be 12:1 but now it is open. 1950 lbs, and 1 inch more track than the FP car 40mm weber type carbs with 34 mm chokes, yes can we say restrictor plate racing

Drawbacks so far, Carbs don't flow as much as the heads do, 36 mm choke produce 4-7 more hp above 6500 rpm it revs to 8750. Safe to 9,000.

On 46mm carbs with 42mm chokes it makes 14 more HP which on the dyno I use is just about 202 hp at the crank. This is of course a dyno, and none of them can be trusted. But I'd say in this trim the car makes 185-188 just how it has been developed so far. I have dynoed other builders 100 hp per liter, and once the carbs are on, the HP is in the shitter.

So what does it need you ask.

46mm carbs 42mm chokes, "S" heads 46mmint 42mm exhaust and "S" brakes with 3.5 inch caliper spacing. This would run with a Miata, but I will only be able to prove this when I run and Limbert runs and other decide they want to run this configuration, Until then, its sucking Miata or Rx7 exhaust.

Erik

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 6 2004, 07:55 PM

Erik,
can you make minimum weight with your car?

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 6 2004, 08:36 PM

Don't know yet, But I don't see why not, I don't weigh much so thats a plus. LOL

Erik

Posted by: Brett W Oct 6 2004, 10:43 PM

Lets get a few cars running before we really try to change things a lot. The RX7 aren't making more than about 210hp (13B) at 2300-2450, The Miatas can't be making much more than 200 (1.8 and 1.6), yes their weight is down a little but that can be over come with good foundation design. Stiff chassis, correct suspension geometry, etc. Not sure what the Z cars are making but they are heavy also. An EP National Championship will be hard but do able if you have the desire to make it happen.

Yes I am running on a set of 2002 rules. I am too cheap to buy the 04 rules and then Have to turn around and buy another set in Feb. I can take that 25$ and get some steel tubing to build a frame jig.

Good luck guys.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 06:43 AM

Eric,

I was the one modelling the front suspension. I incorporated the alterations into my car. But, it's only my work, so no guarantees (unlike on Chris's rear suspension mods ). I have discussed the analysis with some of Ford's best suspension engineers and they agree it's the right way to go. And you should see the look on their face when they see what I did........

The toughest part of the fabrication was the struts.

At best these mods will only make the car a little easier to drive by allowing you to use less spring/bar up front to counter roll. This is accomplished by locating the roll center in a better spot and controlling it's movement much better than the stock setup. The simple analysis shows under extreme jounce and roll conditions the roll center on this suspension only moves about in a 3" circle... and all above ground. Compare that to the stock setup, or worse yet, a lowered setup.

Now, with all those caveats... I'll share my analysis, and even post pictures, if you want. I haven't yet to avoid the debates.

I suggest that one prove to themselves what they want to do with their suspension. I did the analysis and judged that the rear suspension mods are not worth the effort based on the amount of toe change and camber gain over the range of motion. But that's my assessment and can easily be argued. And that's why we build are own car's, right? So, we can do what we want to them......

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 7 2004, 07:06 AM

Yes please post pictures, you will get no negative feedback from me!

Let’s talk shocks, what brand are you guys using? I have the Cheapo Carrera shocks as they were the only thing I could afford at the time. Local racers here say they are crap, they have been great to me though, I can’t complain about them one bit.

Posted by: Brett W Oct 7 2004, 07:16 AM

I am going to be running my suspension points in Susprog 3D as soon as I find a tape measure monkey to help me re-measure the points. Susprog wants to locate from each axel as opposed to the vehicle center point so I have to remeasure.

I will probalby go with Carrera since I have a set for the rear already and they are revalvable. Plus they are pretty local. AS I understand the guys at Carrera know there stuff about shocks. They can help out with you setup.

Come on Kevin show them the front suspension. I bet you get the exact responses you figured you would get.

Kevin and i disagree about the rear suspension mounting points but he has done the analysis and I have not so I can't back up my arguement. YET.

Posted by: MJHanna Oct 7 2004, 07:28 AM

Does your local Carrera dealer rebuild? I'm looking at getting my redone. Factory has change ownership and they don't do it any more.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 07:28 AM

I don't have pics here at work. Brett-you can post the one I sent you if you want. It's not the best picture. I may have to take a few more.

But, not tonight, because I've got to stuff a new clutch and re-install the powertrain. I'm hoping to make a double at Nelson Ledges next weekend.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 07:29 AM

Oh, yeah... Koni.

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 7 2004, 07:57 AM

That's what I thought after actually setting up a trailing arm and measuring changes through the range of motion for both arrangements.
Apparently the value of the mod isn't to improve toe or camber characteristics.
There are other subtle changes. For instance, raising the pickup also lowers the shock attachment point, thereby increasing available shock travel. Also, when the trailing arm rotates upward it no longer moves forward at the same time. This influences the way the tire rolls over surface changes on the pavement.
I don't know how significant these effects are, but I am inclined to think they are as valuable some other major suspension mods, especially after having a season of experience with the change. I did lower the car further than it was before.
I am really interested in seeing how you did the front a-arms Kevin, especially regarding the attachment to the chassis. The track width on the FP car doesn't accomodate coilovers, so I have to continue using torsion bars. I would like to raise the attachment points and maybe even increase the length of the a-arms a bit though.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 08:40 AM

I looked into the track change with the rear suspension, too, and concluded it was not significant in my case.

But, you're absolutely right about the rear shocks. Personally, I believe there are serious problems with the rear shocks, unless some important modifications are made.

Specifically, if one retains the rubber bushing at the lower end of the shock it puts a bending load on the shock, which eventually will ruin the shock, but certainly doesn't allow the shock absorber to do it's job.... since it's binding up.

My solution (not yet implemented) is to use some Koni 28s.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 08:47 AM

BTW... I've heard that about the track difference between FP and EP before, but PCS has the 914-4 track as the same in EP and FP. 56.5f/58.2r for both.

The track for the 914-6 is wider in the front and narrower in the rear? Don't know why....

Anyway, the point is, the front track width is easily adjustable. I actually installed camber plates to reduce the camber . It will all make sense with some pictures.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 09:04 AM

Eric,

The dry sump cover is awesome. Are you going to run the accusump and the dry sump at the same time?

Oh, yeah. Eric, your dry sump mounting location is fine (as you probably already know). There's an allowance for the top of a dry sump tank/enclosure to be no higher than the cowl.

Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 10:05 AM

Overhead view... sorry about the shadows


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Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 10:05 AM

jbvnm


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Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 10:06 AM

The two rod ends are held to the strut with a 3/4" bolt that threads into the strut (that took some work). I have to remvove that bolt to adjust bump (that sucks). The bolt in wire tied to prevent back out.


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Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 10:06 AM

The plate on the vertical wall is used to provide stucture and mounting for the steering rack.


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Posted by: groot Oct 7 2004, 10:07 AM

This is the forward "a-arm" mount to the body. With this setup any cornering loads are transmitted into the cage and throughout the car.

Again, your mileage may vary.


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Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 7 2004, 11:19 AM

Interesting work Kevin.


The rear suspension mods as Chris stated are not for Camber/Toe changes but to get the swinging arm at a better location. When you get the car stiff enough at the rear without this mod, it can become "bound up" because the arm angle is at an upslope (the rear is higher than the front) the compression of the arm can be very odd, and the force of a bump is almost a tension force on the pivot due to the angle. This is not good, also when the pivot remains in the standard location, the shock and spring are in a somewhat cantivlever action, so the spring and compresion valving is somewhat digressive, some tuners compensate this with VERY heavy spring rates, and then the bump compliance is very poor. By moving the points, we can get good bump compliance and proper "movement geometry" for the arm, the result is better tracking of the wheel over bumps, especially on the brakes when the rear is lighter.

I am running an accusump as well as the dry sump, Just something about prelubricating engines before they are started. It's like warming tires prior to use, it's just plain better for you and the tire.

As far as shocks go, I have Bilsteins right now, but have Ohlins for the rear uninstalled and will be getting the Kanna Motorsports front struts with Ohlins Internals. I know what the Bilsteins are all about, so I wanted to tune the chassis using them as a base line, then sell them and develop the Ohlins around the package I have.

As for the front end, I have been looking at several Grand am cars front suspension, as well as some development work I have been doing on my own. I may not have quite as long of front a-arms that you have, but I will be moving the rack and the front a arms up 45-50mm in the chassis and lengthening them 105-125 mm This will not be done until next year when the car gets stripped and rebuilt. I have a couple more cage changes to make for stiffness, but need to see where I am on weight first.

HP:::: I like you! So don't take any offense, You are on HP crack. No way no how. Miata, 230 HP, no bullshit, RX7 well over 210 at the wheels, don't have any crank numbers for that one. But if you factor in the 15 % dyno correction for power at the crank that would leave us at 241.5 , and I think the RX7 13B is all of that and then some. Of course these are peak numbers , but the cars seem to make enough power under the curve as well. The real winner in EP is the Rebello built 240sx and 240z, the Z makes well into 255-260hp and the sx makes better than 250. When they go, gear for gear with the Miata and weigh 350 pounds more, theres more under the hood.

As for me, EP must make 9.25 LBs/hp, So to do that, I will need 210 for 1950 lbs. Now everyone will tell you they have done it, but have they really, or did they build a "cookbook" motor and call it 220 because it had 906 sized parts in the motor. Or a legal to EP specs,using the small carbs, with the small heads ...etc No material addition is the one that kills me, if not I would have already welded and reshaped the combustion chambers to actually burn completely.

What the SCCA does not realize is once that weight is moving, and aero takes over, its only motor pushing from there baby.

My car needs to be clean, mean, well sorted and well driven to have any chance they will change the spec line for me. On a regional level, it should win, on a national level, it won't. But I have hopes the SCCA will come around and make some adjustments. Brakes "S" caliper please, 46 mm carbs with 42 venturis please, "s" 2.0 liter heads with 46mm intake and 42 mm exhaust please, Thats all I ask?



Erik Madsen in search of a Runoffs Birth in 2005

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 7 2004, 02:05 PM

I am "dong it" as we speak.

Kevin WILL do it in EP in 2005.....

Kevins style pushes the envelope. As soon as I saw that I knew he and I had to work together.

He could have ran in FP and with 1/2 the money he is spending he could have been a front runner very easily. He is not taking the easy way out and because of that I am soaking up tons of time into this project that he isn't paying me a dime for.

Hell, I only have 5 parts for the engine at my shop and already have 40 hours of labor in it- the first wrench hasn't even been turned yet!

No "cookbook" engine on this end(those don't exist). It would take an entire dictionary to record this project.

BTW, it will see atleast 5 camshaft changes before it ever leaves my test cell. Maybe 3-4 differnt carb arrangements, and a couple of different exhaust systems. I won't be a bit suprised if it doesn't need a "freshening up" before it even gets shipped. (thats okay because it will give us an idea of how the engine is wearing so we can predict scheduled maintenance more accurately)

Every area that is "open" in the rulebook will be maximized- its the only way we'll make it happen and keep it together.

"when I have fully decided that a result is worth getting, I go ahead of it and make trial after trial till it comes"
Edison

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 7 2004, 03:18 PM

Jake,

I hope you did not think I was talking about you. The "cookbook" that I am talking about is the guys claiming they have 220hp for a 2.0 liter six because they have the 906 pistons,cams.carbs etc...

My only experience with the 2.0 liter four in prod was years ago, and with Dave Finch doing the engines to the rules at that time, 195 hp was on tap, but not for long, based on the weight Kevin needs to carry, 195hp in his car should do very well, at his weight, if you make 195 at the crank, and I think you may do a little better than that, but at 195hp his lbs per hp is 9.5, so it will take just over 200hp to be able to run with the Miatas, but don't kid yourself, the top running guys all are somewhere near 9.0-9.25 lbs per hp, anything under that and it is time to pack up and run with the small dogs, and none of us is interested in that.

Make that kind of Hp and maybe I will convert, the four cylinder car has better weight distribution anyway.

Erik Madsen

also


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Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 7 2004, 05:43 PM

Nicely done Kevin.
It looks very simple.
What did you do to cover up the relocated pickup points per PCS D.5.d.2 ?

Posted by: Powerman Oct 7 2004, 06:07 PM

Chris, I was thinking the same thing about the relocated pickup points??

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 7 2004, 06:25 PM

Chris,

Does'nt that apply only if the relocation enters into the drivers compartment, or am I wrong.

Erik

Post Script:

Chris, what do you think of Jims car??? Finally finished.

Thank God.

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 7 2004, 09:02 PM

"If such points are relocated to the driver/passenger/trunk compartments such points and attendant suspension components shall be covered with metal panels."

That's what my GCR says.

Jim's car looks very nice. I thought you delivered it to him a while ago already.

Posted by: Brett W Oct 7 2004, 11:52 PM

The 240sx guys are running the K24 motor right? If that is the case then there is no way in hell they are making that kind of power. The GT3 240SX gets 50mm venturies and unrestricted engine prep. They are having a hell of a time getting over 230-250. So I know some one is feeding you a line on that one. If the Miata is running unrestricted head prep maybe, but I would have to see it to beleive it. The RX7, maybe in Runoff trim, turning 10,500 rpm. Maybe. I have a friend that is running a 13b rotary, peripherial port in GT2 and makes about 325 flywheel with 51mm venturies. His last 12A made about 275 with 48mm vents (peripherial port). I just don't see a street port motor that in street trim makes at best 175 flywheel HP (12A), making 76% more power in race trim.

As far as rotaries go you will be able to pull him out of the corners as the rotaries just don't make the torque like piston engines do. I definitely see the Challengers they are fast and getting faster, but they are by no means unbeatable.


I gotta shrink the pics first, Kevin

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 8 2004, 09:32 AM

Kevin,


If I thought they were unbeatable, I would not be doing this exercise, thats for sure. But the 240 SX is faster than the Miata and so is the 240 Z and so is the GEN 1 and GEN 2 RX7, in a straight line, but the Miata goes throught the turns better, and when you consider the Miata DOES have 225-230 HP, and weighs 2100 then what kind of hp does the sx have to have to be faster than it and weigh 2450lbs???? In calculation this calculates out to better than 265hp, so yes it has a bigger stroke and should'nt be as peaky, but there is no way on this earth that a EP 240 does not make at least 255 hp. BTW I got the HP numbers for the Miata from an old EP Miata competitor that I know very well. The 240SX and Z are extrapulated, but the Miata and the RX7 GEn 2 are for real on the same dyno as I had my 944, yes I had a dark side once too.

Bottomline, you can be competitive with a four cylinder car especially at the current weight, but can the motor make the HP you will need to win, and will it stay together and if it does, for how long. As for me I will have some more development work to do to make the kind of HP necessary to win EP with the six. BTW anyone have any triple throat solexes with manifolds for sale cheap, I have a science project I want to do.

Erik Madsen

Posted by: groot Oct 8 2004, 07:01 PM

I agree about the potential of the 4 cyl 914 in EP... or else I wouldn't be doing it. But, I also know it will take a while to get there. Let's not forget these top competitors have already sorted their cars and know how to extract the most out of them. It's going to be fun (and not easy), no question.

About covering the front suspension points. I was going to do that before the first SCCA race, but ran out of time. The tech inspectors didn't seem to care. But, I still wonder about that phrase "the driver/passenger/trunk compartments." Is it an all inclusive statement like "driver, passenger, or trunk compartments" or is the word trunk there to make sure hatchback driver cover their points from the driver?

Another debatable rule.

Anyway, I can make covers for them pretty easily.

Posted by: groot Oct 11 2004, 08:20 AM

I, personally, hate getting into a horsepower discussion. I'd rather Jake discuss it. He's better at that anyway.

BTW, Eric, I think you're attributing some of Brent's horsepower statements to me, since I haven't made any .

But, here's some data from the production website.

http://www.coloradoscca.org/prodcar/viewtopic.php?t=3539

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 11 2004, 09:00 AM

Sorry K,


Yeah I think I have!. Anyway, the EP guys are very fast at the National level, I am lucky to have John Weisberg and Jrry Hinkle in my area, both are very good drivers and have very fast cars. So it is a good thumb check to know how fast I really will be. Can't do any worse than some. Made some more progress this weekend, Oil system plumbed and fuel system plumbed. Some very small fab work left, and then it will be time to install the drivetrain. Maybe I'll test it plowing snow.

Anyone have that snowplow installation number for 914's, Brad???, Mueller?


LOL

Erik

Posted by: groot Oct 11 2004, 09:44 AM

I may need that snowplow, too.

I threw in a new clutch over the weekend so I can make this weekend's race at Nelson. I hope it's not too cold. All this to keep my National license..... I miss California!!!!

Last race on the weak engine. I can't wait for next year!!!

Posted by: nein14-6 Oct 11 2004, 10:25 AM

Since you brought up the Production website....
The word is that if they bring back "DP" we will be allowed to run 2.5l sixes, that would be a fast class

Posted by: r_towle Oct 12 2004, 07:11 PM

Just a quick question.

What is the largest 4 cylinder engine allowed in EP??

Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 12 2004, 09:11 PM

2 liters (95x71)

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 18 2004, 09:14 AM

Chris is including the 1mm overbore from 94 to 95 mm but he is absolutely correct.

I noticed Mike or Kevin was over on the prod web site asking about HP numbers, If Tom Thrash has 180hp at the rear wheels I will eat my own fecal matter.

and if he does, then I should be able to drive by him like he was tied to a post, But since John Weisberg can't keep Tom Thrash's car in his sight, and I can't keep Johns car in sight, and Johns car makes over 205 hp at the rear wheels, then thrash has more than that. So he is full of shit. Its a wonder how the Miata and the RX drivers are underestimating their HP. They should, they are the fastest cars in EP.

Erik Madsen

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 18 2004, 10:16 AM

Kevin will have 180HP at his rear wheels...

Posted by: groot Oct 18 2004, 12:31 PM

Next season's going to be fun!

Posted by: Thorshammer Oct 18 2004, 12:36 PM

I know we have over focused on HP, its power under the curve that is so important. 180 at the rear will be more than enough to do the job.

Erik