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Posted by: grantsfo Oct 10 2004, 02:01 PM

Wow that Alameda course yesterday really threw me for a loop. Literally. I think between going off course, spinning twice and making my first mis-shift ever from 2nd to 1st when I was going for 3rd (almost justified a new motor for myself!), I really felt like I had a driving brain fart. I was actually thinking about asking for an instructor after my second off course excursion. I finally sorted things out on my 7th and 8th runs and think I turned competitive times in Ai class, but then I talked to some of you Bp class drivers and learned that you were in 4th gear on that sweeper on the back part of the course. Yikes!

I have some questions for those who dont have problems going off course. Does anyone have tips on how to figure out the course when you are at speed? I always walk the course and see where I want to go, but then when I'm in the car I just cant see things the same. I always see a sea of cones - forget about great lines and pefect shifts, because I'm always doing all I can to figure out the course.

Posted by: PatW Oct 10 2004, 02:33 PM

Asking for help when out on the course is always a good idea, even if I doing well.

I found if I got there early and help set-up. I tend to learn the course quicker than I ushaly do. Then walk the course with a fast driver listen in or discuss brake/shift/ points. Understand what is happening with the car with any problem areas on the course that you might be struggling with and how to overcome them. Sit out a session if you need a break and watch other drivers and learn where you can improve and where you are doing well.

Car Control I think is the key to this Autocross addiction. Everyone has a diffrent take on this but, I think if you learn the basics (no easy task) You will be on your way.

Also I've found that if a go to the local indoor Kark track and ripp off a bunch of laps helps keeps me sharp.


Pat

Posted by: anthony Oct 10 2004, 02:48 PM

I've found that working first and watching the other cars going around helps me memorize the course faster. I also try to drive the course in my head before during and after runs. If you're just seeing a "sea of cones" then you aren't memorizing the turns.

Posted by: L8Apex Oct 10 2004, 03:24 PM

I was there yesterday in my 993. Which 914 were you that went off dozens of time?

I usually don't have a problem going off course, but my best advice is looking ahead and especially the pointer cones. They tell you where you should be "pointing" the car at. I noticed everyone was getting lost through the chicaine area where cones were minimal and also the second set of S's, people were missing the last cone and going the wrong direction.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Oct 10 2004, 03:50 PM

there's a few tips.

one is that your eyepoint is about 3 feet higher when you walk the course than when you're in the car. for critical sections, like turn-in points, it can help to crouch and really lock in what you'll see from the seat.

another is to pick up visual pointers and landmarks that are off the course. i had trouble with one section of a course until i noticed that 'the line' aligned perfectly with the airport tower. in general, picking up references farther rather than nearer is A Good Thing.

Learning The Course is an acquired skill that improves with practice.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 10 2004, 04:30 PM

I do this also on parts of the course that can be confusing.

It is an aquired skill indeed.

By all means, take an instructor. Don't worry about going fast, worry about where you are going.

Before the days of our local SCCA's "first 3 runs count" rule, I used the first run as a throwaway at a reduced speed to pick lines and make sure I had learned the course.....and this was with a couple years of AX experience. Now I practice "Katie bar the door" on the first run....and it can get ugly.....more often than not

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 10 2004, 06:55 PM

i was only in 4th gear coming into it. i'm surprised more people didn't do this. you could come into that sweeper pretty damn hot if you were VERY delicate in lifting... [good tires help]

having a full 5 AX's under my belt, i don't have squat to add, but i would second rich's/jp's suggestion of crouching down and look at key parts of the course from that point of view.

nathan

p.s. drawing maps of the course has really helped me get it in my head.

p.p.s. i'm still pissed about my first DNF -- i maintain that was bullshit.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 10 2004, 07:07 PM

I was the clueless one in the Olympic Blue 1.8. 4 times off the course, but it certainly felt like dozens! I think its too few and too much time between AX's for me ...and I was in extra dense mode.

Thanks for all the other tips everyone. I like the croutching lower tip, since when I walk the course I'm seeing it at 6 + feet.

Posted by: Randal Oct 10 2004, 07:20 PM

The course was tough, no doubt. A bit to many change ups(*) and very complicated cone placement to allow any new drivers to be able to find a rythym.

If you think it was hard to drive, think about us poor guys setting it up. We started before 7:00AM and were still working at 9:00AM.

Thanks to a few volunteers like Andrew B., we got it done.

It will be interesting to see how many DNF's were recorded, when the results are out.

Brad took my car around and made it, even without the benefit of a course walk, but that was unusual to say the least.

And next time your out at one of the GGR or LPR events ask any of us instructors for help. We enjoy seeing our students improve, as one of my students did yesterday, taking 15 seconds off his first time.

Fresno this weekend is a two day event, so come on down and get all the instruction you want!


(*) higher speed sections that feed into a very tight slow corners.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 10 2004, 08:18 PM

I can't be critical of anyones layout.
The one I did had about 30% DNFs.

I learnt from that. It's supposed to be a speed event, not a navigation exercise.

Posted by: SirAndy Oct 10 2004, 09:42 PM

aha, that was you!

we were wondering who's car that was ...
i got a few nice pictures of you on the course, unfortunately, i used DMan's camera, so if any of you guys wants to see some pictures, send HIM a PM or email ....

Andy

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 10 2004, 09:52 PM

Cool ... I dont have any AX pictures of my car. Thanks!

Posted by: trekkor Oct 10 2004, 11:01 PM

are you behind the GT?

KT


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Posted by: trekkor Oct 10 2004, 11:08 PM

or is this you?

KT


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Posted by: SirAndy Oct 10 2004, 11:17 PM

nope, 08 is DMan ...

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 10 2004, 11:24 PM

trekkor -- post more!

Posted by: trekkor Oct 10 2004, 11:58 PM

OK...

Who's this?

KT


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Posted by: trekkor Oct 11 2004, 12:05 AM

Our GTeener


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Posted by: trekkor Oct 11 2004, 12:09 AM

Randal's 15 second improver, my nephew Andy, in my car for his first a/x.


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 11 2004, 12:55 AM

My advice... SLOW DOWN. You dont have to set TTOD on your first pass. Run the course slowly the first TWO passes.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 11 2004, 12:58 AM

This ones for Jeroen...


B

Posted by: Randal Oct 11 2004, 08:08 AM

If your going to be designing courses this is required reading.

Roger Johnson's book on AutoX design:

http://home.houston.rr.com/rogerthereal/

After you design the course Roger will also give you constructive comments on whether or not your design works.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 11 2004, 03:07 PM

Yeah I think that, "drive slow", when I go out the first time, but I never seem to be able to slow myself down. I use to race sprints on velodrome as a cyclist so I think I have a sprinters mentality that is hard to shake.

I think next AX I'm going to ask for an instructor. It will force me to slow down.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 11 2004, 03:08 PM

I'm the one behind the GT

Posted by: GTeener Oct 11 2004, 03:47 PM

Yeay!

Nice picture of GTeener!

Thanks!

I did much better in the afternoon once my front sway bar was loosened. And I got a re-run once to keep my tires warm (I learned that from Andrew).

~Gwen

Posted by: AndrewBlyholder Oct 11 2004, 03:57 PM

Just thought I'd second the suggestions to walk and draw the course. If you see me between runs, I usually stay strapped in the car and study my course map on my clipboard, which I stuff behind the seat when I go out (it only occassionally flies around the cockpit during the run!) So the drawing is very useful to me. Making notes on it also helps me remember the things I've decided to do or worked out. Even if you threw the drawing away after doing it, it'd maintain it is still a very useful exercise because the mere process of creating it forces you to look at the layout critically and carefully (Are those salolm cones lined up? How far is that gate offset? Is that a long straight or a short one? etc.)

I also close my eyes and visualize my way around the whole course to work out where I want to place the car and what I want to do differently the next time out.

All these habits were all the more important at this event given the extra long course. I can't remember a longer course time in the last several years.

Andrew

Posted by: GTeener Oct 11 2004, 04:00 PM

And getting a lot of reruns helps you practice too. Line up behind a slower car and catch up to them

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 11 2004, 04:11 PM

Great advice. Thanks! I currently sit in my 914 before runs just to remind me where everything is! I have so little seat time in the car I just spend time getting feel for pedals, shifter, etc. I really get screwed up becuase my daily driver has opposite shift pattern and I'm to the point where I dont even think about shifting in that car.

Posted by: trekkor Oct 11 2004, 06:18 PM

Here's a shot from the GGR photo gallery.
http://www.pca-ggr.org/photos.html#100904autocross

KT


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Posted by: grantsfo Oct 11 2004, 07:21 PM

Oh yeah ...I'm a leaner too! Think thats an old two wheel habit.

and dang he got the Audi A4 dent!

Posted by: Randal Oct 11 2004, 07:24 PM

Another point: Courses are never laid out exactly as they are on the design map. Walking and drawing the course is a great way to start etching the course in your mind, for that time during the day, when you can finally let it all hang out.

And you will never be able to let it all it all hang out unless the course becomes automatic and the driving steps to the forefront.

And don't forget to talk during the day with other drivers. You'll be surprised, but it always happens that someone will have figured out one of the corners before you.

Actually I think Nathan had a better line on one corner than I did, which I saw when I was running with him as instructor. Of course when I tried that line (flat out) I got off the normal track and into the marbles, dirt and goose poop and zip around I went.

Actually Nathan did an excellent job when I was riding with him. He made very few mistakes and was pushing his car to the limit. And that was around a very long and complicated course. Nice driving Nathan.

Now I’ve got to ride with Mr. T again and see how far he has progressed. Maybe in Fresno?

I think if either of these guys gets a set of Hoosiers, watch out.

Posted by: trekkor Oct 11 2004, 09:40 PM

Nathan and I have been battling for some time now.
He raised the bar by stepping up to V-racers.
Now I must make the next move.

I'm looking at Yokohama A032R's racing tires.
Tread wear 60.
Saw them on a 911 at Sears sunday running well.
They are $180 each and are dual a/x and track tires.
http://www.yokohamatire.com/TireFeatures.asp?TireID=2

Randal, I am torn as to attending in Fresno.
Going only one day seems pointless. Going both days, and I am looking for trouble.

Thanks for the compliment. You're still my hero

Geese? I think it was pelican. those piles were MASSIVE.

KT

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 11 2004, 10:10 PM

randal: thanks for riding with me and thanks for your encouragement.

trekkor: bring it. and hurry up, too -- you'd better beat me quick before you put that heavy six in your car !

Posted by: Rob Ways Oct 11 2004, 10:55 PM

Man, all this good advice. It makes me wish I were an autocrosser.....

Posted by: GTeener Oct 12 2004, 11:30 AM

Loser!

Where were you?

Posted by: Steve_7x Oct 12 2004, 07:17 PM

1st of all - Kudo's to Andy for running the pants of his car an getting TTOD!!!

As for suggestions... you have gotten some very good one - though I have never done the crouching thing - though it makes sense.

I am terrible at drawing maps so I forego what Andy does - and often I am okay without a map - but this past Saturday I wish I had one and had his discipline to use it the way he describes.

My #1 observation is that I think many autocrossers make the mistake of stop getting instruction - we think we got it etc... I believe it was last year when I gave a Bill Benz a ride in my blue 914 - he commented that I had lost the smoothness that had impressed him when I was driving in Bi. I thought I was smooth - but when I reflected on the run I realized I had lost an element that had made me competitive in Bi. This was after 20 years of autocrossing... I still learned something...

With that in mind - let's remember that the instruction is free! In fact there were instructors with very little to do this past Saturday. We would have been happy to ride and give suggestions. Get suggestions and ideas from different folks... one of them may give you the tip that allows all the cards to fall in place.

One other suggestion - I try to pre-visualize the course as I pull up in line... watch the cars that are running in front of you... remind yourself where the course goes and what you planned to do different on this run... not just one corner, but all of the areas you wanted to improve upon, etc...

When you run is done... immediately self-critique yourself... reflect back on what worked and what didn't, what you want to try differently, etc...

I have heard the comparison that Autocrossing is like Golf (!) - a lot of it is technique, comfort in controlling the tools, but a large portion is mental... confidence and staying calm and being able to reflect on what you did and work on making the improvements required. Re-read Andy's post and I believe you will see the mental part of the equation was very significant in his response... and has nothing to do with engines, and tires and suspension.

And again... do not ever hesitate to ask for instruction... there are plenty of driver/instructors that will sit with you and give you ideas, ride in the passenger seat etc...

Sorry for the long post...

Steve

Posted by: trekkor Oct 12 2004, 07:52 PM

Excellant, Steve.

KT

Posted by: Dman Oct 13 2004, 10:36 AM

Hi Grant, Andy, Nathan and the rest of you. Nathan what was you best time?

Sorry I haven't posted sooner I just had my ACL replaced in my left knee . So am posting under the influence from a laptop on the couch.

I had fun on Saturday but was very challenged by all the shift points on the course. All the auto-x I have been to in the valley are 2nd gear blasts.

Andy got a buch of great shots with my camera, I'll sort those out and post those in a little bit.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 13 2004, 10:43 AM

I like this shot!

Posted by: Dman Oct 13 2004, 10:53 AM

That is a good shot! See how calm and relaxed I am behind the wheel!

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 13 2004, 11:15 AM

i put up an 80.943 -- 20th overall, 10th PAX!

rob's old v-racers were definitely worth a few seconds for me. i'm surprised how easy they were to "feel" -- i could easily sense where the edge was, and if i went past it, i could pull it back without too much trouble.

sorry to hear about your knee, that sucks big time.

http://pca-ggr.org/acresults/100904.html

Posted by: GTeener Oct 13 2004, 11:30 AM

I managed to pull off 35th overall (83.974) [19th PAX] on my last run. Better late than never eh?

Posted by: Dman Oct 13 2004, 11:41 AM

Way to go! Kicked my butt!

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 13 2004, 11:41 AM

Moreover, you pulled off TTODL!

Gwen, you ROCK!!

Posted by: GTeener Oct 13 2004, 11:43 AM

Luck I tell ya...

And probably the loosened sway bar and re-run helped a bit too

But thanks!

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 13 2004, 12:01 PM

I got 27th in PAX.

Posted by: GTeener Oct 13 2004, 12:03 PM

You Da Man!

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 13 2004, 12:05 PM

Nope I'm confused ...it was 27th and 6 PAX points