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Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 14 2012, 08:16 AM

The time has come. We are beginning to take pre-orders on the 914-6 rear calipers.

As you know, us 914 owners have long been looking for a solution to a properly biased brake system. The fronts have been the easy part, bolt on a pair of Brembo's ...or a 3.5" 911 front suspension and you would have your choice of larger calipers with 48mm pistons up front. But, what about the rears? You need a 38mm piston to give you the correct bias. For 914 owners that meant a long and winding road of searching for the proper solution which usually boiled down to two things; uber-rare (and uber-expensive) original 914-6 calipers or 911 rear calipers and a confusing handbrake assembly or, worse yet, 911 rear calipers and no handbrake solution.

Well, you're looking at the true bolt on solution. Aluminum castings of the famous 914-6 rear calipers. Final weigh-in has yet to be established but, we think we'll be under 3lbs each with the aluminum pistons.

These simply bolt on and use stock handbrake cables and parts. Larger pistons and larger pads make this the prefect rear caliper solution for Brembo bolt-ons and S-Caliper or A-Caliper upgrades.

What you are looking at is a raw alloy assembled prototype prior to anodizing.

Posted by: 904svo Aug 14 2012, 08:19 AM

Nice!!!!
What the cost going to be?????

Posted by: ottox914 Aug 14 2012, 08:26 AM

Amazingly cool. And likely worth every penny.

Posted by: matthepcat Aug 14 2012, 08:29 AM

I often suspect that my rears are doing little to nothing. This would be an easy solution.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Aug 14 2012, 08:36 AM

I'm ready for a pair of those.

Posted by: FourBlades Aug 14 2012, 08:49 AM

Those look awesome!

Who is making the castings?

John

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 14 2012, 08:52 AM

Think about it, 911 guys could use these to save lbs and still have a parking brake.



What about the flex ?

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 14 2012, 09:18 AM

I'm curious about this too. Even steel calipers flex, so when you make the same design out of aluminim, what is going to happen?

Posted by: mepstein Aug 14 2012, 09:26 AM

Aren't all hi performance calipers made from aluminum?

Posted by: Randal Aug 14 2012, 10:05 AM

Amazing, simply amazing.

Posted by: scotty b Aug 14 2012, 10:42 AM

Posted by: Justin Fischer Aug 14 2012, 10:52 AM

Looks like they are made for vented discs? Maybe...

Posted by: seanery Aug 14 2012, 11:16 AM

1. Can we get them polished instead of plated?
2. Can we get them spaced like a GT caliper?
3. When can we get them?
4. What's the wallet damage?

thanks, Eric, these are cool!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 14 2012, 11:24 AM

There will be 914-6 and 914-6/GT (solid and vented rotor) versions.

M8 fasteners vs. M7 will prevent any and all flex.

911 versions are done as well... 2lbs 12 oz. for those. They shave exactly 5lbs of unsprung weight off each corner of an assdragger. Removing the handbrake assemblies from a 911 will save an additional 2.5lbs.

Didn't want the 911 guys to feel left out:

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 14 2012, 11:43 AM

Damn those are Hot..

Posted by: jim_hoyland Aug 14 2012, 12:05 PM

Again, another great product to update the 914 ! Way to go I'm interested.

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 14 2012, 12:23 PM

Nice!

Posted by: JRust Aug 14 2012, 12:40 PM

Damn you Eric Like I need another thing to put on my list













Thanks by the way

Posted by: ruby914 Aug 14 2012, 01:10 PM

Nice

Posted by: MDG Aug 14 2012, 01:17 PM

Good work mister!

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 14 2012, 02:16 PM

oh I know, Group Buy, pennies on the dollar

Posted by: watsonrx13 Aug 14 2012, 02:16 PM

Fantastic...

--- Rob

Posted by: wingnut86 Aug 14 2012, 03:02 PM

Well now I know why I didn't here back from you

Who the hell needs 6 sets of used 914 calipers and a few sets of 944-Turbos when you got these toys on your kitchen table

Congrats Eric.

Oh, still return my PM - Umm, sometime

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 14 2012, 03:19 PM

All the brake companies will tell you the flex is in the caliper design, not the fasteners. Have you tried these out yet? Track usage? I'm not trying to pee on your parade - I think it's awesome you're making these, I just want to make sure they work as well as they look.

Posted by: Harpo Aug 14 2012, 03:21 PM

Awesome Eric. Show us more

DAvid

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Aug 14 2012, 09:54 PM

Okay Eric, Pee on my parade and give me the cost for my 73?

Posted by: Mikey914 Aug 15 2012, 06:35 PM

Have you priced the 944 turbo rebuild kits? They're about $90 caliper. $360 for the car OUCH.
Ask me how I know.

Posted by: smj Aug 15 2012, 07:25 PM

Oh, so this is what Fiid was talking about yesterday...

Even if all were perfect with the former fronts that have been moved to the rear, I'd want these for my -6 so I could have an e-brake again!

(slow clap) Well played, Mr. Shea. Well. Played.

Posted by: wingnut86 Aug 15 2012, 07:31 PM

Nope,

You & Eric are thick as thieves.

These are nice 944 calipers Mark.

Right down to the "Porchah" stamped on each one...

Hey, wait a SECOND

Frikkin flea market

Posted by: BKLA Aug 15 2012, 07:38 PM

Mark told me about these last week and I actually kept my big mouth shut.

You guys are amazing!!!

Posted by: mepstein Aug 15 2012, 07:59 PM

He told me in may along with some other really cool stuff that's in the works.

Posted by: porbmw Aug 15 2012, 08:39 PM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2012, 09:04 PM

Paul... those should look familiar.

Posted by: rdauenhauer Aug 15 2012, 11:55 PM

Ok enough with the teasing... will they be less than a OE set of /6 GT calipers?

Posted by: Porschef Aug 16 2012, 06:41 AM

Wow. Just yesterday I had checked your website to see what the story was on 914-6 rear calipers; sure, you rebuild em, but ain't got any...couple hours later, BAM! PRESTO!

Shoulda bought a powerball ticket last night


Vedy eenterestink.

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 16 2012, 07:37 AM

I did.
Someone in Michigan won the 350 Million.

Posted by: porbmw Aug 16 2012, 10:01 AM

Yup!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 16 2012, 11:27 AM

Sure I do...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=189591



Pricing: There were 2 minor CAD changes and 1 minor CAD addition. We're waiting on a total from the machinest to assess final cost. I'm a 914 guy too so, "I understand". We're looking at keeping these under the $900 price point per pair. Bottom line though... we simply do not know accurately enough to project pricing just yet.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 16 2012, 12:22 PM

What casting method are you using for these?

Posted by: Philip W. Aug 16 2012, 01:02 PM

very cool! This just went to the top of my list- i had been saving up to get new rears or send myin in for a complete re-do but i think i will hold out for these!!!

Posted by: balljoint Aug 16 2012, 04:22 PM

Oh boy!

I just got a package from PBR in the mail. Pretty exciting!

Thanks Erc!

I will let you guys know how they fit!

Posted by: 9146986 Aug 16 2012, 04:42 PM

Porsche has put aluminum calipers on their top of the line cars for years. Remember when the S alloy calipers were the top shelf?

One guy writes about "flex" and causes speculation.

99% of the guys in the 914 world are stoked!

Awesome stuff Sir Eric of Stoppage!

Posted by: mepstein Aug 16 2012, 05:09 PM

Not to mention their race cars. Does anyone do high performance steel calipers?

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 16 2012, 07:25 PM

I'm not saying it's not really cool that he's doing this, but I'm asking about the material. Go look at other aluminum calipers and you'll notice something really different - they are forged. As you know, the forging adds a lot of strength.

Now, I'm not saying that you these won't be good calipers, I'm asking if they have been tested and work. Taking a design that was engineered for steel and making them out of aluminum isn't guarenteed to work the same.

Posted by: 914_teener Aug 16 2012, 07:43 PM

I'm not saying it's not really cool that he's doing this, but I'm asking about the material. Go look at other aluminum calipers and you'll notice something really different - they are forged. As you know, the forging adds a lot of strength.




Not necessarily true......meaning adding strength by forging.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 16 2012, 09:00 PM

If you want tried and tru steel, I have a new set of perfect PMB 914-6 GT calipers I can sell you.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 16 2012, 11:52 PM

The Brembos we sell are cast. Same process. No flex. Much larger 48mm pistons as well. Everyone we've sold them to absolutely loves them.

Not sure about all the flex talk in calipers. Vic Elford can win Monte Carlo and race at Le Mans on aluminum calipers for 24 hours yet I hear from a lot of Internet racers that can't make it a lap around Riverside without complaining about "flex".

I have aluminum calipers on all my cars. I love them and highly recommend them.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 17 2012, 05:28 AM

The "flex" myth is huge in the bike industry. Every year the manufactures quote 12.8% stiffer than last years bike. Stiffer wheels, stiffer soles on shoes, stiffer bars, stems and all kinds of crazy stuff. The stiffer is better hype is typically bought by the bike racer that isn't winning at the races. Can't be the rider, has to be the equipment.

Posted by: bulitt Aug 17 2012, 05:46 AM

One former Boss of mine would spend thousands of dollars every year on new golf equipment...and he really sucked. So one day I very politely asked him why he did it and he told me "he just wanted to rule out equipment as a factor in his poor performance"


Checking the Wilwood site, their calipers are cast also. And Eric's prices are in line with their offerings.

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 17 2012, 06:19 AM

Posted by: biggy72 Aug 17 2012, 06:34 AM

Stiffer is better is true for most parts on the suspension, but I'm not sure you could tell anything at all if a caliper flexes .020 under hard braking. And that would be flexing quite a bit. The only thing a flexing caliper would do is change the brake feel. I wouldn't be surprised if the flex lines end up having more give than any caliper flexing could provide as far as changing how the brakes feel.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 17 2012, 06:45 AM

I have aluminum calipers on both of my cars. They were all designed from the beginning to be made out of aluminum. Brembo, Alcon, PFC, Wilwood, etc all spend huge amounts of resources on trying to make their calipers stiffer. Will there be unintended consequences of changing the same design from steel to aluminum? No doubt. Are they big enough to be a problem? Don't know - that's why I asked if you had used these calipers yet.

Just becuase they were good 44 years ago doesn't mean they are good today. Wanna argue that Goodyear Blue Streaks are as good as Hoosiers? Maybe we should all use slide rules instead of computers becuase that is what they used when they engineered stuff for Vic's car?

I hope these are great calipers and work well. I think it's awesome that you are developing parts for 914s (and Porsches in general). I'm not trying to be a jerk, but changing the material a brake caliper is made out of is a major change. I think it's appropriate to ask if this was an engineered, analyzed change or just one of ease of manufacture or becuase it is lighter.

Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 17 2012, 07:24 AM

Eric, Matt has a good point. These should be tested.


I volunteer...

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 17 2012, 08:41 AM

Sorry Rob. These will flex way too much for you.

The Brembos were cast copies of ATE steel A-Calipers. Hey Rob, how are your Brembos working out?

Tensile Strengths Steel and Aluminum

Structural steel ASTM A36 Steel
Yield strength (MPa) = 250

Carbon steel 1090
Yield strength (MPa) = 250

Aluminium
Yield strength (MPa) = 414

Human skin (mine is getting thicker with all this Internet philosophic discussion)
Yield strength (MPa) = 15

Aluminum


1. Ultimate strength
2. Yield strength
3. Proportional limit stress
4. Fracture
5. Offset strain (typically 0.2%)

Steel


1. Ultimate strength
2. Yield strength
3. Fracture
4. Strain hardening region
5. Necking region
A: Engineering stress
B: True stress

The Yield Strength of aluminum will always be the same regardless of the "caliper design". Now, let's get into real world observations: I've "NEVER" seen a broken aluminum caliper but I've seen "innumerable" steel calipers with mounting ears fractured off and sealing flanges fractured. Steel is much more brittle than aluminum. The aforementioned Brembos have been in use since the mid-70's and again, I've "never" seen one broken or fractured. Same material depth on the mounting ears and around the piston flanges. Again, an aluminum copy of an ATE steel caliper that was used on virtually every European make sedan and sports car. Finally, virtually all modern calipers are all made of aluminum now as it's lighter and stronger and better suited for the application of being hung off a cars suspension. They're using computers now and... they're using aluminum to manufacture calipers. Some "slide rule" designs were ahead of their time (Porsche seems to be famous for this).

Back it up. Can you tell me how you could possibly know these companies spend huge amounts of resources to make their calipers stiffer or is this a general claim? If I were to make a general claim it would be that their engineers look at the numbers I posted because modern (computer) design practices dictate the use of the "Yield Strength" figures.



Again, back it up. You've spoken to "All the brake companies"? I've searched for your "flex design" criteria. I think you're making general statements that people could easily confuse with facts and even those are wrong. E.G.: with 4 M8 fasteners running from the nose to back... the fasteners "definitely" do play a factor in flex or no flex. If the fasteners were made out of rubber; would the caliper flex? Aluminum? Now steel? Steel is used where it is needed in modern computer designed aluminum calipers.

So Matt... are you worried about actual "Strength" or are you concerned that these will literally "Flex" their way off the car? Or is there another point that you feel needs to be made?

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 17 2012, 08:54 AM

May I please be on the list for a pair in Natural finish Anodized, Narrow.= lighter
Regards

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 17 2012, 09:28 AM

If you want to play armchair engineer, which aluminim alloy are you using. Blanket statements like "steel is much more brittle than alumimum" show that you haven't worked with many different aluminum alloys. Try bending 6061-T6 and see how it does? There is a lot of work that goes into alloying a metal and picking the correct one for the application.



I've spent probably 10 hours talking to brake caliper engineers from Wilwood, PFC, and Alcon about the merrits of different designs and caliper flex and strength. Or, if you would like, PFC will tell you at http://www.performancefriction.com/motorsports/motorcycle-brake-calipers.aspx. Notice the number of times they tell you the calipers are forged and have gone through FEA analysis. Also notice that most new aluminum calipers have either a bridge bolt or an acutal part of the caliper body cross the pad area to hold the two halves from spreading.



Most of the flex comes in the caliper material and design. Does some come from the fasterner? Sure. Is it the majority? No. Notice most new hi-pefrormance calipers are forged out of special alloys. They are also designed [i]to be made out of alimunim, not steel.



Neither. Will they be strong enough? Probably, but I don't know. Will the flex themselves off the car? Probably not, but I don't know. Do you? Did you test them? Do the engineering? After all, brakes aren't that imporotant.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my original posts - will these flex and cause pedal feel problems? What will they do when they get hot? I'm sure you've come across the stories how the aluminum 911S calipers can be really spongy compared to the steel calipers. Wonder why?

Also, if you would like to make attacks, I'm happy to talk to you about being an "internet racer." I'm happy to put my track experience up against anyone on this site. What's you're track experience? Or better, what's your engineering background?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 17 2012, 09:55 AM

No personal attacks Matt... I was wondering the same. Just a general observation of all the Internet racer chatter about flex in calipers that have put others at the top of the leaderboards.

These are exact replicas of a proven design in a stronger and lighter material. Try bending a beer can... you win. I'm not going to get into it further.

My track experience? Schooled at Skip Barber and Bob Bondurant. With Skip, Terry Earwood was my instructor. With Bondurant, Bob himself at Blackhawk Farms. 18 years PCA on Mid-America, Las Vegas Motorspeedway, Atlanta Motorspeedway, Miller Motorsports Park. I haven't raced now for about 5 years. Probably not as much as you but, enough not to be talking out of my ass and, enough time on S-Caliper not to complain about them.

No engineering background. I sourced others for that. I just build thousands of brake calipers and just trying to make a quality product for the industry.

Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 17 2012, 10:34 AM

To answer your question Eric, I have had no problems at all with my Brembo front calipers. In fact they cool off so quickly it's spooky. Nothing odd in the peddle feel at all. I would have no concern whatsoever putting these on the rear where they do less work of braking...

Posted by: balljoint Aug 17 2012, 10:42 AM

Eric,

Are these a straight swap for my existing rear calipers?

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 17 2012, 10:54 AM

I've done Skippy School and probably 40 days at Watkins Glen, 100+ at NHMS, 30 or more at Lime Rock, 15 at Pocono, and a couple at Summit Point, Road America, and Sebring over the last 14 years. I've helped other folks with everything from a stock 914 to a GT2 911 (running 180 mph at Road Atlanta), a couple different Formula Fords, a couple of Formula Continentals, and a bunch of other stuff inbetween. I've set up a number of schools using the most senior Skip Barber instructor and the person that drove the data car.

I can tell you lots of different things about what brakes will do on a 914 including stock calipers, Carerra calipers, Boxster calipers, and Wilwood Superlights (the best so far). Flex in the calipers can change a lot of things. Just think, when you start to go fast enough, you flex the spindle and get pad knock back from that.

Things like caliper flex, bias bar hysterisis, and compressibility of the brake fluid are real problems when you push a car hard. The alloy that you choose for the calipers makes a huge difference. The strength difference from something like 1100 to 7075 is almost double. I've purchased trailer loads of aluminum, some coming directly from Alcoa for special applications. The devil is in the details and all aluminum is not created equal (even when it's supposed to be).

I do hope you calipers work. It's great that you are restoring old calipers and bringing new things to the market, I just want them to be well engineered and as good as the originals.

Edit: Here is a good chart to show the difference in aluminum alloy strengths. Notice the difference in strengths - 7075 is basically twice as strong as 6061 (the most common machinable aluminum) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/aluminumalloy.pdf

Posted by: MDG Aug 17 2012, 11:58 AM

Okay.

If your skin continues to thicken at the rate this chart suggests, thereby becoming less flexible and losing elasticity, as a precaution, have you now forbidden your Venezuelan maids from wearing those short skirts? You know, in case you have any, um, flex?

Posted by: 9146986 Aug 17 2012, 12:13 PM

I am the 99%












(of the guys that are stoked, and wouldn't ever worry about these calipers flexing too much)

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 17 2012, 12:52 PM

you didnt loose this...did you ??

hey I can do ultimate breaking numbers and expansion numbers to that point ...through destruct testing if you want. both steel/alum.

Posted by: IM101 Aug 17 2012, 01:07 PM

Awsome news Eric, will be looking to get a set down the road sometime.

Posted by: Porschef Aug 17 2012, 01:08 PM

Likewise. I don't race my car, nor have I autocrossed. I would like to upgrade my braking system however, and to me this seems to be right there. While my brake system works fine, I'd like to replace my rear AA calipers (with the broken adjuster screw on one side).

So, how would these work on a 4? Will I need to convert to 5 lug, along with vented rotors? I'd need to get a pair of hubs then, and upgrade the front end along with it, no? Also a 19mm master?

I think a car this light should be able to stop quicker than it does now.




What's a necking region?


I thought that was the back seat of Dad's Impala, circa 1977....

Posted by: scotty b Aug 17 2012, 02:26 PM

But wouldn't the flexing technically result in a stiffer piece

Posted by: MDG Aug 17 2012, 02:49 PM

excellent point, Scotty. We need an expert - Is there a doctor in the house?

Posted by: SLITS Aug 17 2012, 04:26 PM

Not in Erc's case ... you can't stiffen what is already flaxen.

Posted by: 914_teener Aug 17 2012, 05:30 PM

Strength of materials of human skin.....hmmmm....


Nice peice of work on the castings Mr. Erc.'s.

Posted by: kerensky Aug 17 2012, 11:00 PM

Matt and Eric, standing on the Golden Gate Bridge, suddenly feel the call of nature. No traffic coming, they step to the railing...

"Damn! This water's cold!"

"Yeah, an' it's deep, too!"

Seriously, guys. Discuss in another thread or by IM, please?

Apologies to Richard Pryor, who prolly didn't *write* that joke but is the first guy I heard utter it.

Posted by: ww914 Aug 18 2012, 08:11 AM

From a completely non-professional layman's point of view, I applaud Eric for taking on this task and making these calipers available to us for a reasonable price. Good job Eric and put me on the order list.

Posted by: DEC Aug 18 2012, 04:17 PM

Posted by: 914Sixer Aug 18 2012, 08:51 PM

SWEEEEEET !!!

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 20 2012, 05:17 PM

Wow great item !!!! By some chance might there be anything in the works for an Aluminum front 911 'M' style caliper, that will bolt on to the stock struts (3") and use stock rotors ???? (minus the .103" that needs to be shaved off the 'M' calipers mounting surface)

Just asking, as I would be in for a 4 wheel set immediately !!!!!!


I know I should just change the front end to 911 but I like the stock torsion bar spring rate and using stock sized brake pads (easier to remember and order)

Posted by: mepstein Aug 20 2012, 05:21 PM

Bembo's - There on Eric's website. http://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/4741552/6862358.htm

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 20 2012, 05:50 PM

Awesome!! thanks for the response !! So after reading the description ...... these are for 911s ..... so I would need to machine the .103" off the mounting surface for the 914 struts ....... I actually made a machine fixture for this exact job for the used steel 'M' calipers I bought, but my mill is a tad too small for it .... so needless to say I have not gotten around to it ................ maybe I can send the fixture to Eric?? Does he do machining?

Also not to be any more of a pain ........ but the brake pads for these Brembo cals are not stock 914 (or stock 911 'M'). They are a tad bigger according to the PMB description, he mentions it is the 320i pad size ..... but not the year of 320i.



Thanks again for the help and link!!!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 20 2012, 06:29 PM

The Brembo's will work on 914 struts in two configurations:

1. Without the spacers on an "early" 914 strut and a solid rotor.
2. With the BRAG hub that Mike Mueller designed for Brad Roberts, on a late strut and a vented rotor.

Regardless, I would move to a 3" 911 Boge strut and have the 911 hub, vented rotors and beefier bearings. Not that 914 bearings have been problematic... it's just that the BRAG hubs are NLA and as expensive or more expensive than a nice set of 3" 911 struts.

I think machining the calipers would be good money for bad.

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 20 2012, 07:22 PM

Eric, thank you for the response. Have you tried to machine steel 'M' calipers? Sounds like it may be difficult.

If you do not offer the machining ....... then ...... if I were to send you my pair of steel 1968 ATE 'M' calipers already machined at the mounting flange, would you be able to rebuild them? Maybe I can search for someone with a larger mill ...

When I get some other projects out of the way, I was thinking of making some of those NLA alloy hubs for late 914 struts. Because everytime I go looking for 911 struts I end up wasting a ton of time trying to find and identify years etc.. I always have the worst luck when it comes model compatability and fitment

Posted by: mepstein Aug 20 2012, 07:41 PM

911T struts go for cheap on pelican. Place a WTB for the model and what your willing to pay. Many 911 guys replace them with 3.5 spacing. I got mine for 100 and there were plenty of guys willing to sell for that price.

Posted by: dlestep Aug 20 2012, 08:22 PM

I have heard about (and tired of) the subject of flexing of aluminum calipers.
It started with Wilwood calipers in the '60s.
No matter what material is used, flex is always present in a cantilevered grip design.
Friction materials and fluids have advanced since the '60s and allow less
pedal input, (clamp pressure).
In the '90's metal matrix composite rotors were 40 percent more
thermally conductive than steel, heavy, and chewed up pads really fast.
During the turn of the century, composite and ceramic rotors evolved increasing
friction ten fold.
Carbon composite rotors were used on the Galaxy C5A way-back in the '80s, and
used on the LM X35 Rolls-Royce Allison Liftfan transmission in 2000.
Aircraft actuators, and pressure manifolds have always been made of aluminum alloys
and other exotics operating at 6,000lbs or more, far more than our brake pressures.
If you have a Cadillac, use steel to bring that barge under control.
If you have a nimble, light-weight sports car, that could reach 1g using stock tires
and solid rotors with single puck, steel calipers, then think what you could do on
the skid pad with proper tires, suspension settings and less unsprung weight.

Posted by: tomeric914 Aug 20 2012, 08:38 PM

Yea Eric, my Brembo's are working great too. Thanks for asking! (I kid of course, I know Rob volunteered)

So yea, I'd be happy to test out the aluminum 911 rear variant for you Eric to go along with these.

Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2012, 09:26 PM

Sweet!!

I need these to go along with the S calipers I bought for you. I can't spare the coin just yet. Just a matter of time.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 21 2012, 07:25 AM

We can rebuild anything.

Steel isn't difficult to machine. You're still talking about good money for bad.

I take it you are talking about machining a solid rotor (68) m-caliper to fit on a late model 914 strut. After reviewing all of these options many times, I fail to see the value in that. Here's why:

1. Exact same pad size as a 914 caliper.
2. Same solid rotor will not shed heat any faster.
3. Need to machine 914 rotor/hubs to 5-lug every time you need a new ones (if that's what you're doing).
4. Larger 48mm piston will throw off the bias unless you go with a rather expensive rear solution, but then...

....again, why not put that money toward 911 struts that offer a real benifit (larger bearings, lightweight hub assembly with vented rotors that weigh the same as a solid 914 rotor/hub assembly)? They simply bolt to your a-arms. Or - just stick with the stock late model 914 front caliper. It has thicker pads anyway.

So... Rear Calipers. Should go into final machine consulting today. I hope to have final pricing this week as well.

Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 21 2012, 08:32 AM

Mark told me about these about a year ago and I kept my mouth shut. Except to bug Mark and Erc about when they would be done!

Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 21 2012, 08:40 AM

Wing, you clearly don't know about Erc's house. He lives with three women and has an almost endless parade of his wife's Brazilian - supermodel friends coming in and out of the house. If it weren't for Rio his dog, he would have the only Y chromosomes in the house.

Bottom line - there aren't any 'toy' car parts on his kitchen table!

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 21 2012, 08:49 AM

Thank you for your time Eric. Yes, I have the solid rotor 'M' caliper and was gonna use them on stock late rotors (1973). I don't want to be a pain, I understand what you are saying and yes, what you describe is certainly 100% better but I have already bought new strut inserts, new brake pads and pin set, 19mm master and machined/drilled my stock rotors (5 lug). I only need to machine fit the 'M' calipers and this part will be done (for now). Down the road, if I ever get to drive this car and wear these rotors out, I will look into it again.

This car is not my main project and I unfortunately cannot just keep adding "while I am in there" parts, effort and time. I spent more years and money than I planned on and would hope to drive it before I die. This whole car project seems to be good money after bad .... I have already spent plenty on the very nice 2056cc and I still need to:

weld the flares
buy flared rockers / valences
do all body work
add body deadner
paint the whole car
install new weather stripping

then

the entire interior still needs to be done
buy tires and space the 7 & 8 x 16 fuchs to fill the flares
intall rear sway bar (front is done )
maybe rebuild gear box (probably big project in itself)
install new fuel pump
put the fuel tank back in
redo engine wiring / fuel lines for carbs
setup shift linkage, throttle / clutch cables
etc.......

So I just need some help fitting the 'M' calipers, so I can put the rotors on and bleed the brakes. Otherwise I will just throw the 'M' calipers in the ocean and put the stockers back on ...... which now, almost sounds like the thing to do ... .......................

Posted by: balljoint Aug 21 2012, 10:03 AM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 21 2012, 01:19 PM

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 21 2012, 01:54 PM

Yeah! That is how I felt when I was looking for 911 struts !


Edit: Do these struts use a standard 914 strut insert and fit the lower ball joint of my 1973?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=153123&st=0&gopid=1727150&#entry1727150

Posted by: SLITS Aug 21 2012, 02:43 PM

No, you would have to change to the early style ball joints ( 1/2 round moon cutout instead of the later wedge).

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 21 2012, 02:47 PM

do you need some wedge bolt T struts ??? i know of a few..

some 7&8x16 fuchs (al reed refinished)
2.0-3.4 6cyl

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 21 2012, 02:55 PM

Thanks for the response Slits! It has always been something when I was looking for struts


So would the early ball joint fit my late a-arm?

and lastly would my stock new 'strut insert' fit in these struts? .......... edit: this question answered by seller

Yes, with hubs, vented rotors and M calipers that will fit my 1973 and use stock 914 inserts ..... and not bent

I moved conversation about the struts to strut link.

Sorry for the high-jack Eric ...

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 21 2012, 04:03 PM

Oh no worries... I'm going to take all of the pictures of my flexible aluminum calipers out so we can discuss your front end needs... Ad nauseam.

Posted by: SLITS Aug 21 2012, 04:51 PM

The A arms are the same and YES an early ball joint will fit your late A arm. It is the strut you are applying that determines the ball joint needed or the ball joint determines the strut needed. Swap back and forth all you want, but you must match the ball joint to the strut.

An early strut has a slit in the bottom. A bolt with a nut goes thru the hole and when tightened "pinches" the bottom of the strut to hold the shaft of the ball joint. The ball joint shaft has a 1/2 round (1/2 moon) cutout in it for the bolt to pass.

A late strut does not have the slit. It uses a "double taper pin" (wedge) held in place by a nut. The ball joint shaft has a "wedge shaped" cutout in the shaft so the double taper pin locks it in place.

914 shocks fit 914 struts. 911 shocks fit 911 struts. They are different, as I remember, the 911 strut has a taper to it towards the bottom and the 914 does not.

Just for confusion, there is at least one more style ball joint fitted to early 911s ('65 - '68) or something like that.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Aug 21 2012, 05:55 PM

Before we do that, can you share what alloy they are? People here seem to think that all aluminum is the same.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 21 2012, 06:17 PM

And if it's not too much to ask, your last 10 years of tax returns.

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 21 2012, 06:25 PM

A356-T-6 My Guess

Posted by: bandjoey Aug 21 2012, 06:32 PM

I started out with a Schwinn Paramount racing around the Cotton Bowl in Dallas way back in the 70's. Johnny Milsap (and you know who Johnny is ! ) was my first coach, semi retired after earning 4 olympic medals ! Then I moved onto several progressively stouter stronger and lighter steel alloy bikes from Guerciotti to Bianchi to De Rosa. DAMN! After all those stiff steel frames, the DAMN BRAKES JUST KEEP ON GETTING LIGHTER MADE OUT OF ALUMINUM AND BOY DO THEY FLEX! Just 2 weeks ago Lance Armstrong was caught by a reporter lamenting - and I quote - "Where have all the Steel Brakes gone?"

Now that I've hung up the cycling clips, I stare endlessly at my old Raleigh with the Steel Brake Calipers (Chrome Plated no less) and dream of those happy ball busting stops on Steel! Nuff Said! Live Long Steel Brakes!

Posted by: gothspeed Aug 21 2012, 07:04 PM

Great post and thank you Slits! These details you noted are the kind of things that are known with first hand experience! I tried to find this stuff out by searching and asking in the past ..... but you know how that goes, sometimes questions do not go over very well

Are the early ball joints not as good as the later ball joints? I am wondering why they changed the design ......... unlike many people I cannot just dump endless money and time, on each and every part of the car .... so I have to be careful that a misinformed decision could end up costing me extra dough. because then the project stops

Thanks again for your great help, patience and for sharing your knowledge!!

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 21 2012, 07:22 PM

Thats not correct. Inserts for Boge struts fit the struts from either car.
Any differences would be based on the weight distribution of the vehicle.

Posted by: SLITS Aug 21 2012, 08:01 PM

Guess I was wrong on the shocks ... oh well

You would have to ask the Porsche engineers why they changed the ball joints. My assumption would be that the wedge locks the shaft better, but the ball joint is essentially the same save for the cutout.

In other words, I don't know why.

Posted by: scotty b Aug 21 2012, 08:21 PM

qwerty


Attached image(s)

Posted by: MDG Aug 21 2012, 09:37 PM

Erc, are you going to stamp any kind of cool logo on them?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 21 2012, 09:42 PM

No... They may crumble! What balljoints and strut inserts are you using?

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 22 2012, 04:00 AM

712 alum. my new guess

Posted by: MDG Aug 22 2012, 05:45 AM

Boogers and Dave.

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 22 2012, 08:18 AM

In my experience, the pinch bolt design has a tendency to ovalize the hole and allow movement.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 22 2012, 08:20 AM

Yup. That was the write up in Pano but, I've never actually seen an ovaled pinch bolt base. Must have been something as it evoked a design change.

Posted by: jim_hoyland Aug 22 2012, 08:24 AM

Eric, What is the pricing going to look like ?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 22 2012, 08:42 AM

On what? The struts? Balljoints? Recycled beer can calipers?

Shooting for a $799 and $899 price point.

Posted by: tomeric914 Aug 22 2012, 09:00 AM

Edit: Never mind, Eric answered my question above

Posted by: SLITS Aug 22 2012, 12:58 PM

Guess I'll have to buy a set and then while under hard braking they'll flex and shatter and cause me to wreck. That way the "T" I am running will not be blamed for the crash!!

Posted by: 914_teener Aug 22 2012, 01:12 PM

Posted by: jim_hoyland Aug 22 2012, 01:24 PM

Just the calipers....

Posted by: dlestep Aug 22 2012, 02:00 PM

Eric's Soda Can Brake Calipers !

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 22 2012, 02:41 PM

Break all the brakes you want... we'll make more! Slits has already been kind enough to go dumpster diving for our cut-rate aluminum. Thanks Lil'Buddy!

Posted by: MDG Aug 22 2012, 02:43 PM

Ah.

THAT explains all of the band-aids on his fingers and thumbs. Odd he went with the Disney Princess ones though.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 22 2012, 02:45 PM

Not really... once you get to know him.

Posted by: 9146986 Aug 22 2012, 02:46 PM

So that's why you wanted all those aluminum pop can ingots I made!

Posted by: kerensky Aug 22 2012, 08:19 PM

Wow! So, how long after that did he go blind? Pretty cool that he could just jump to a successful musical career like that, what're the odds?

Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 22 2012, 10:51 PM

Uh I thought you said it was a boroke water line ??

Posted by: tyfighter123 Jun 15 2019, 05:10 PM

Did these ever come to fruition?

Posted by: rgalla9146 Jun 16 2019, 05:21 AM

That ship came in.....and left.

Posted by: 914werke Jun 16 2019, 11:41 AM

Holy resurrection batman!

Dont you mean sunk?

Posted by: rgalla9146 Jun 16 2019, 01:10 PM

Weren't they available and sold out and now NLA ?

Posted by: Larmo63 Jun 16 2019, 10:10 PM

Only the super cool special top secret insider those-in the-know types got these.

You didn't know that?

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 16 2019, 10:58 PM

I’ve got mine...

Posted by: rgalla9146 Jun 17 2019, 05:01 AM

Looking for a set for sale....anyone ?

Posted by: mepstein Jun 17 2019, 06:48 AM

I don’t know the whole story but I don’t think they were cost effective for Eric to keep making. 914rubber had a steel version made and I think it was the same deal. Machining a small quantity was pricey.

Posted by: Steve Jun 17 2019, 07:20 AM

I think Ferrari 308 uses the same rear calipers, but the oil line fittings are in the wrong spot. I bought a reseal kit years ago before I switched to Boxster brakes and 911 parking brake. Even after the rebuild they still would stick, so I got rid of them.

Posted by: Olympic 914 Jun 17 2019, 07:23 AM

Got mine too.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 17 2019, 07:26 AM

They're still listed on his site for sale.

Posted by: Steve Jun 17 2019, 07:54 AM

They are but it also says "no longer available"
https://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/8778676/9712726.htm
But these are still available.
https://www.pmbperformance.com/914-brakes/914_6_Rear.html

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jun 17 2019, 08:35 AM

This was a super cool product. How many sets were made?

Was quite reasonably priced at $1500, given what it costs to buy or restore a set of steel 914-6 rear calipers—or what other aftermarket calipers (that don't include an e-brake!) go for.

Posted by: tyfighter123 Jun 17 2019, 09:55 AM

I am looking for a set of rears to match my S calipers up front. Does anyone have a set for sale?

Tyler

Posted by: amfab Jun 17 2019, 09:59 AM

I picked up a set of the steel ones in the classifieds last year, so they do pop up from time to time

Posted by: 914werke Jun 17 2019, 10:04 AM

Those are alum alloy? how come they have an ATE casting?

Posted by: Chi-town Jun 17 2019, 10:06 AM

Probably because the molds were original ATE cast iron ones?

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 17 2019, 06:40 PM

They were half of that Pete.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 17 2019, 06:40 PM

That is correct.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 17 2019, 06:41 PM

They were always intended to be a limited run. I bought the last set and that is closed down...

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 17 2019, 06:52 PM

Are you rich Tyler? It was an incredible collaboration for Eric Shea and Mark Whitesell to get together and produce the limited run they did, I don’t think Eric has time for that again, his business has a three year supply of restoration customers. If you’ve got a trunk full of money, you might talk someone who has a set into parting with them. But otherwise, you should consider other options.

Here in this pic are my Brembo/Ferrari/Alfa front brakes. Alloy, polished and clear coated. Not impossible to find, but pretty darned difficult.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: rgalla9146 Jun 17 2019, 07:26 PM

....... but the discussion is alloy rears

Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 17 2019, 07:26 PM

I have PMB V-calipers, stock /4 calipers with a spacer between the halves and shims (thin washers) between the caliper and the trailing arm mount. Uses 911 vented rears OD cut down 4mm.

I don't see these anymore, IIRC Eric couldn't find a supply for the longer bolts and the longer pad hardware (pins and springs).

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 17 2019, 11:18 PM

Well, I have front and rear alloys. My rears are the last set of PMB alloy rears sold.