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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Megasquirt Project, .....IT RUNS !
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 1 2012, 07:45 PM
Hi,
Although I have been a member for a while (since I purchased my 914), I have not posted much. I still love my 914 and it's is interesting how this car drives like an absolute go-cart.
Anyway, my engine is a carbed 2270 that I built up with the help of many including Jake, and I am now embarking on a Megasquirt project. As many know, megasquirt is relatively inexpensive for a programmable FI system. I find, however, that there is too much information out there that it is nothing short of confusing. I want to share my progress so that at the end of the day, some may learn and may become less intimidated. Hopefully I will be successful....we'll see.
I have so many questions that I will post, along with some things that I have already learned. ANY and ALL comments appreciated.
I made a youtube video of my progress up to date. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoJfMZ9YgQc
Michel 
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 2 2012, 09:05 AM
I have no doubts that your Megasquirt install will be successful. You seem to have a MUCH firmer grasp on electronics than most folks do (myself included). Really nice test set-up!!
When I did mine, I was pretty overwhelmed with all the info too. I likened it to using a PC; you can literally run everything in your life with it, but all I want to do is surf the internet. . . 
MS has so many capabilities 9if you have the ability to use and understand it all, but in the end, I just wanted the injectors to squirt and the plugs to fire at the right time
I'm running it on my 2056 w/ EDIS that's in my my shop-car. If you want, I can e-mail you the basic MSQ tuning file and that will be a good starting point for tuning as all the basic parameters are really close and good for a type-4. Then you'll just need to run VEAL to get the VE tables closer for your 2270 and fine tune from there.
PM me if you want it.
BTW, I started really getting this thing dialed-in once I switched to domestic micro-brews. . . 
Posted by: kg6dxn Sep 2 2012, 10:24 AM
I have built many EFI projects with various systems.
In my opinion, you need to get that off the bench and install it into the car. It appears you have it all working but there is no substitute for a working engine. You will not be able to tune anything on the bench like that. Get it on the engine and finish it up. Find a chassis dynometer in your area that you can rent time on. The bench cannot compensate for various load conditions.
You're sooooo close... Get r done!
BTW, I do appreciate seeing everything on the bench operational.
Posted by: cgnj Sep 2 2012, 10:42 AM
Hi,
You may want to search Dave Hunts 2270 project. I believe that MS setup was blamed for the many of the problems on his build. But, if you succeed, I'm willing to follow in your footsteps.
Carlos
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 2 2012, 11:52 AM
Hi,
You may want to search Dave Hunts 2270 project. I believe that MS setup was blamed for the many of the problems on his build. But, if you succeed, I'm willing to follow in your footsteps.
Carlos
Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.
Posted by: cgnj Sep 2 2012, 12:53 PM
Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.
Not able to find any updates on his project. Have a link? My recollection is there is a question regarding the restriction with a stock pleneum and running overly rich. I though he switched to ITB's and SDS
Carlos
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 2 2012, 12:54 PM
I appreciate your comments Nate. I am still not very confident about this project especially when it comes to VE tables, setup parameters, idle valves (are they really necessary), and that MAP sensor mounted on the MS pcb seems a little out of place. I will post what I have been working on soon for some feedback. I may call on you for that VE file you mentioned. It's all kind of mysterious at the moment.
All the bench testing is important for me to better understand how things work and it's fun
When I finally get to installing everything in the car, hopefully, there will be less guesswork and less of a sore back too. There is no rush for me and as I have said, maybe it will help others understand the MS system more thoroughly and more successful installations will result. That's my goal anyway.
I think some of those microbrews will arrive later. The Dos Equis were not really that good
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 2 2012, 02:44 PM
Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.
Not able to find any updates on his project. Have a link? My recollection is there is a question regarding the restriction with a stock pleneum and running overly rich. I though he switched to ITB's and SDS
Carlos
He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.
Posted by: cgnj Sep 2 2012, 03:15 PM
He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.
Hi Nate,
Now this will turn to a STF thread. I was not aware of the change. It is as I expected though. Any thoughts or experience on using the stock or modified pleneum and runners? I've sat on the MS conversion since 2003. I guess I could ask my son to use his $140k engineering degree (that Mom and Dad paid for) to do some calcs for me. Trying to avoid the ITB route. I'm running Dell 45's and I'm older now. Looking to reduce the noise and support adding AC. I see MS as the answer and have believed should work for the last 9-10 years. Afraid to cook my motor. Dave's thread made me wary. I already have lots of intake noise, looking to reduce it.
Sorry for the hijack,
Carlos
Posted by: Tom Sep 2 2012, 03:39 PM
First that is a very nice bench set up and I am sure you have advanced your knowledge a lot by using it. I agree that it is time to get it into the car.
You mentioned noise on some of the lines. Did you ground both ends of the shields on the sensitive wiring? That can cause a ground loop and introduces all kinds of noise problems. Only ground one of the ends of the shields and carry them all to the same grounding point.
Tom
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 2 2012, 09:05 PM
He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.
Hi Nate,
Now this will turn to a STF thread. I was not aware of the change. It is as I expected though. Any thoughts or experience on using the stock or modified pleneum and runners? I've sat on the MS conversion since 2003. I guess I could ask my son to use his $140k engineering degree (that Mom and Dad paid for) to do some calcs for me. Trying to avoid the ITB route. I'm running Dell 45's and I'm older now. Looking to reduce the noise and support adding AC. I see MS as the answer and have believed should work for the last 9-10 years. Afraid to cook my motor. Dave's thread made me wary. I already have lots of intake noise, looking to reduce it.
Sorry for the hijack,
Carlos
How large is your motor?? I know that Jake has mentioned that it won't support much larger than a 2056cc at the higher end of the RPMs. The modified bus plenum with the 2.0L 914 runners I have in my shop car work fantastic. If your motor is larger, it's not hard to make a custom plenum and use a larger single TB from another car. It's all about sizing the plenum and TB for the motor you have. If you want, you can use the IAT sensor in the d-jet manifold, use all the injectors, the CHT sensor virtually everything for your MS conversion. You will have to make or buy an adapter for the TPS though and loose the D-jet TPS switch. All it takes is a custom wiring harness and a few hours laying it all out so it looks nice. I would highly recommend getting a 12' bundle of the engine harness wires from DIYAutotune to make your harness from. It will eliminate wiring stuff up wrong once it's all loomed together. Ask me how I know this. . .
One small piece of advice when wiring the VR sensor wires. Make the wires extra long and spin them with a drill so they are twisted as they go. This eliminates a lot of the noise that effects the signal coming from the VR sensor.
Another note on the VR sensor wires. If you go to start your bench tested system and find you have no spark AND no pulsing of the injectors, FIRST try switching the wires from the VR sensor. That thing ONLY works one way and everything is reliant on that signal for it all to work. Again, ask me how I know that too. . .
I'm sold on MS. Carbs are a compromise. Distributors are a compromise. With MS, you have it all, 'cept you are stuck with whatever cam the motor is built with. If only someone would make cheap and effective solenoid operated valves, we'd be set!!
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 3 2012, 07:31 AM
The plan is to use a 2L modified intake manifold with Porsche 944 ( 55mm) throttle body and stock 36mm ID runners.
The VR tach wheel and sensor that I am using is from Mark at Original Customs. I installed it at the time of the rebuild because I knew that I wanted to go with FI eventually. This saves me from pulling the engine out which is not my favorite job.
Mark also suggested that I use the stock intake system as he had success with it, and it is way cheaper that using dual ITB. There is also no linkage which is a major PITA if you ask me.
I had some 34 lb/hr injectors reconditioned that I purchased on ebay (part # 0280150431). Mr. Injector did a fabulous job cleaning them up and modifying with hose, O rings etc. for stock setup. Total price of injectors was less than $200. Hope they workout.
For the CLT sensor, I cut open a GM coolant sensor, extracted the thermistor, added wires and inserted into ground lug with some epoxy. I got this idea from the STF site. I checked calibration in boiling water, freezer, etc. and it responded as it should, so the default MS TS setting can be used. I have not decided where on the engine ( head, valve cover, or case) I will install this sensor.
I am undecided about the placement of the IAT sensor. I see many have installed it in the intake manifold, but, I have noticed that most cars have it installed between the air cleaner and the TB?
I have not purchased my O2 sensor as of yet. I have experience with an AEM one with gauge that I used to help me calibrate the CIS in my 911 a few years back (it seemed to work fine) and, DYIautotune is pushing Innovate. Any opinions on this?
Lastly, I want to make sure of the the firing order is 1, 4, 3, 2 and the wasted spark should have 1+3 and 2+4 firing together?
Tom, proper grounding and and minimizing noise is a definite concern. Thanks for your advice.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: McMark Sep 3 2012, 10:52 AM
Yup, the firing order and spark plug pairing is correct. One tid-bit that I learned while working out my MicroSquirt setup is that the injectors are paired differently than the spark plugs. When the injectors fire isn't nearly as critical as the spark plugs, but I found it interesting. IIRC, the injectors are 1-4 and 2-3, and I imagine the reasoning is that one injector is squirting at the intake valve that is open, and the other injector is firing at the intake valve that is about to open.
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 3 2012, 11:18 AM
IIRC, the injectors are 1-4 and 2-3, and I imagine the reasoning is that one injector is squirting at the intake valve that is open, and the other injector is firing at the intake valve that is about to open.
Mark, thanks, that is VERY good information. I have not yet assembled the injector harnesses or even looked at the injector setups yet. Maybe later this week, hopefully.
I want to do a another youtube video of the injectors firing fuel (outside without spark plugs nearby). Crazy, I know....
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 3 2012, 12:18 PM
I'm not sure if microsquirt is different than regular MS with the injector firing sequence or not, but mine are paired 1/3-2/4 just like the EDIS module. It's not as critical though since they are batch fired and not sequential.
I've got my CLT temp sensor mounted in the center of the left valve cover. It works fine there, but it does take a while to get warm. To make the WUE sequence correct, I simply lowered the thresholds for that and have WUE off by about 95F as registered by the sensor. If I had it to do again, I think I would put it in the air stream under the cylinders to get a quicker reaction and more real-time reading.
Adapting that plenum for that TB will be a snap and should give you the better flow at the top-end.
I'm running an LC1 and have had no issues with it.
For the love of Pete, get that thing installed and get tuning already!!
Posted by: wingnut86 Sep 3 2012, 03:27 PM
Agreed with Tom, similar background as he has.
Ummm, in blowing things up to learn from, sorry Tom, I couldn't help my Tarets.
Also, the sensor idea is way cool. I wonder what a FLAPS sells these for - pretend there is a lightbulb 
BTW, someone posted here a week or 2 ago about TBIs off a Honda street bike that match fairly close to carb runners, that's also another possibility...
Sorry for the hijack.
Good luck and keep updating us.
Dave
Posted by: McMark Sep 4 2012, 12:19 PM
It's not the ECU/Brain that matters in injector firing, it's how their wired. The paired injectors share a physical wire. If you look at the pinout on an ecu it's only got two connections for injectors. Which ones you pair up is decided by the wiring harness builder.
It's not as critical and I'm doubtful that you would notice a difference between 1/3-2/4 and 1/4-3/2 and I wouldn't dig into a running car just to swap it. But for those who are still building harnesses and those in the future who read this thread, I think it's worth pairing the injectors the way the factory did.
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 4 2012, 11:49 PM
Can anyone comment on my settings? I put them all together in one photo. Any and all comment appreciated
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: McMark Sep 5 2012, 11:37 AM
IIRC, the Tooth #1 Angle (top right box in your image) should be closer to 290°. Once it's running, you'll need to fine-tune that setting with a timing light.
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 5 2012, 10:17 PM
I am deleting this post, because information was not correct.
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 6 2012, 10:22 AM
I will need to make another bench experiment, but I got some microbrew IPA this time.
[attachmentid=332587]
A good IPA guarantees success IMHO
The main thing to remember about the 36-1 wheel and the VR sensor is that missing tooth needs to lead the VR sensor by 90 degrees for a 4 cylinder motor. I've not used Mark's kit, but if you have the ability to clock the tooth portion of the wheel on it's hub it while the engine is set @ TDC, you won't have to adjust the TDC in the computer in order to get the timing accurate in relation to the actual crank position.
Posted by: McMark Sep 6 2012, 11:57 AM
IMHO, timing should always be confirmed via timing light to make sure what you see on the engine matches what the computer thinks the timing is. The toothed wheel isn't adjustable, but MegaSquirt is very flexible on making this adjustment.
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Sep 6 2012, 04:25 PM
IMHO, timing should always be confirmed via timing light to make sure what you see on the engine matches what the computer thinks the timing is.
Absolutely! I hope my comments didn't make that seem un-important, because absolute verification is 100% required. Can't know where to go unless you know where you are. Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 6 2012, 11:57 PM
Yes, I confirmed tonight that the Tooth #1 angle adjustment is VERY flexible. I took some photos of the timing wheel (that I marked up with TDC roughly same spot as Mark's wheel) with my test setup. I fee comfortable with this now
Also, ordered up some SS fuel lines+tank screen from Tangerine Racing, so looks like I will be diving into the car soon. Wonder if I really need to remove the tank 
I need to mount my fuel pump under the tank too. Any tips on doing this?
Posted by: rwilner Sep 7 2012, 11:49 AM
boy this looks familiar!
When you get into tuning land, I HIGHLY recommend purchasing the full version of tunerstudio and using their autotune function to set your VE tables. They will get you to 90% of where you need to be (maybe 100%).
Also: I know you'll do this, but when you get everything in the car, make sure every sensor is reading as expected before even trying to start or tune the engine -- IAT, CHT, MPS, AFR, TPS are the main ones I think.
Looks like fun!!
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 8 2012, 09:23 AM
boy this looks familiar!
When you get into tuning land, I HIGHLY recommend purchasing the full version of tunerstudio and using their autotune function to set your VE tables. They will get you to 90% of where you need to be (maybe 100%).
Looks like fun!!
I did buy the full version and I am going through great lengths to test everything before hand. To me the journey is a BIG part of the fun. The VE tuning part does make me a little nervous.
Hope you didn't sell your 914 yet. In my opinion, I think you should keep it. It's value is only going up
Posted by: Michelj13 Sep 12 2012, 10:30 PM
Just receive my SS "through the tunnel fuel lines from Chris. Guess I'll be pulling the gas tank this weekend 
Posted by: Michelj13 Oct 13 2012, 12:35 PM
Almost ready to pull fuel tank. You can probably tell I am trying to delay this part.
I laid out my fuel system components and everything seems to work as it should. Next step is starting install in 914.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZkWpAmDFPM
Posted by: toon1 Oct 13 2012, 08:00 PM
Yes you are crazy!!! I think I would have used water...LOL.
Very cool to see it in action
Posted by: wingnut86 Oct 13 2012, 08:31 PM
Actually, if you used Bacatdi 151 and Long Island Tea mixers, all your friends could do shots
Follow it up with 91% alcohol to clean the pipes so to speak.
Of course, lighting it and toasting up some Brauts in the sweat spot would have enamored you in your neighbors eyes
Posted by: Michelj13 Nov 13 2012, 09:21 AM
I had some success this weekend The relay board got installed, hole through firewall, ran basic power also ran my head temp sensors. After going this, I still was not in the mood to remove fuel tank so I thought I would try running the engine using MS to just replace the distributor and coils. Success
Once I set the trigger angle correctly at 70 degrees, it started right up. It ran so mkuch smoother than before. I even ran it around the block. Can t wait to try the rest of the system.
I rewarded myself with some cold Lagunitas IPAs
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Nov 13 2012, 12:15 PM
Glad to hear that you actually took it off the bench and hooked it up to an actual engine. 
Let the tuning begin. . .
Posted by: DBCooper Nov 13 2012, 03:18 PM
Thread title is "Will It Ever Run?" Now it does, so you might want to update that.
Posted by: Michelj13 Nov 19 2012, 06:22 PM
I tried, but was unable to figure it out. I will start a new one once I get the fuel injection installed. Hopefully, this will happen before the end of the year!
Thread title is "Will It Ever Run?" Now it does, so you might want to update that.
Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 19 2012, 07:00 PM
I tried, but was unable to figure it out. I will start a new one once I get the fuel injection installed. Hopefully, this will happen before the end of the year!
Thread title is "Will It Ever Run?" Now it does, so you might want to update that.
You don't have to start a new thread. When you click on edit, you have to choose full edit to change the title.
Posted by: rudedude Nov 19 2012, 07:24 PM
Step up the pace! I want to do microsquirt this winter and need some encouragement.
Posted by: Michelj13 Nov 20 2012, 12:01 AM
Ok, the title is changed, yeh me. I only work in one speed, SLOW
Here is a photo of the temporary coil setup and look the distributor wires are gone.
and some photos of my head temp sensor setup....lest than $25 for both on ebay!
Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2012, 09:53 AM
Unfortunately that location won't give you true readings for head temp. The numbers you'll see talked about here on the site for a head temp gauge refer to a sender installed under the spark plug.
Of course, if you're using that head temp location to feed the Megasquirt, then it'll work fine for that.
Posted by: Michelj13 Nov 20 2012, 02:50 PM
I knew this when I decided to go this route. I have also read there are discrepencies in the readings from one head temp setup to the next. Which one can you trust? Then, I read a post where an aircraft mechanic experimented with sensors under the plugs and attached to the outside of the head. The result was a temp difference of only few degrees and the reaction time was a few seconds slower. Hey, for 25 bucks, at least I have an idea of my head temps and don't have to fiddle with sensors under the plugs, etc.
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 13 2012, 06:33 PM
Some good progress over the last few weeks. Finally got the hard lines throught the tunnel installed, along with fuel pump under tank with wiring to the relay board. The fuel filter secured to the firewall and short lines going up to the engine bay. Pulled carbs, manifolds and linkage out too. Photos coming shortly.
I spent some time playing with the idle valve. I am driving it with a TIP 120 transistor. Lots to learn with this selecting frequency, duty cycle, figuring what is normal and inverted, etc.
Its almost time to address the VE table. Does anyone have a msq file I could use as a baseline to tune my 2270?
Posted by: rwilner Dec 13 2012, 08:15 PM
Some good progress over the last few weeks. Finally got the hard lines throught the tunnel installed, along with fuel pump under tank with wiring to the relay board. The fuel filter secured to the firewall and short lines going up to the engine bay. Pulled carbs, manifolds and linkage out too. Photos coming shortly.
I spent some time playing with the idle valve. I am driving it with a TIP 120 transistor. Lots to learn with this selecting frequency, duty cycle, figuring what is normal and inverted, etc.
Its almost time to address the VE table. Does anyone have a msq file I could use as a baseline to tune my 2270?
Check out the last post in the thread in my signature -- it's for a 2.0, but should get your engine running and be a starting point for tuning.
Posted by: McMark Dec 13 2012, 10:57 PM
The MSQ stores all the settings, so if you've set up sensor parameters, loading a different MSQ will overwrite those changes. 
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 14 2012, 12:14 AM
Thanks for that heads up info. I did not realize this. So, I should be taking notes of all my current setups, load the "rwilner" 's MSQ file, then modify the settings for my sensors etc.
Sounds pretty straight forward. We will see...
Posted by: McMark Dec 14 2012, 12:19 AM
Notes are always good anyway. 
The MSQ is just a text file. You can open it in a word processes and find the VE table section, then copy and paste into your MSQ. BUT, you must take care not to change the format and order of the file. If you add an extra return/line or delete a comma, it will break the MSQ (keep backups before playing).
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Dec 14 2012, 12:30 AM
Save a copy of the MSQ after you're done making changes at regular intervals by clicking the "Save As" under the "File" menu. It should automatically name it with the date and time unless you give it a specific name. This is key because it's like a library back in time and allows you to easily identify an earlier tune even in the same day.
If I try tuning experiments over a few days that don't work as I would like; no big deal. I just flash in the tune from before I made all the experimental changes and I'm right back where I started. This is one of the best parts of MS; if you don;t like the changes, just instantly go back to what worked before and try a different direction.
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 14 2012, 09:25 PM
I am comparing "rwilner"s msq file with mine and there are many format differences. My file is much largerat 86KB vs 28KB. This can possibly be explained by the microsquirt vs megasquirt v3, I don't really know.
Looking at some of the tables in each file, the afr table is straightforward, I can just cut and paste.
The same is not that clear with the advance tables. Interestingly, my file had 3 have advance tables vs just the one in rwilner's.
When I compared the VE tables, mine had rows of 16 vs rwilner's 12 rows.
I don't really have a good understanding on all the tables, etc yet, so I think I would like to keep looking for a file that more closely resembles mine.
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 14 2012, 09:55 PM
Just a few progress photos. I invite all comments 
Posted by: Michelj13 Jan 21 2013, 07:34 PM
I had the whole day from 8 am to 5 pm to work on my project. I got the manifolds, TB, and all the wiring done.
Well, the engine started right up and all sensors appeared to be reading something.
However, after the initial start up, the revs went past 4k before I turned off the ignition. I discovered the TPS was wired incorrectly. I fixed that, calibrated the TPS and the engine started up again. The idle then settled at 2600. I disconnected my fidle valve (it is normally closed), reduced the advance in the table and now idle is about 1200. TB is closed, so not sure where air is coming from. Also, it appears the engine speed does not change when I disconnect the #4 ignition coil and injector. I will need to check these.
Anyway, I ran out of gas, losing my sunlight> It was time to stop, and clean up. It really was a Good Day!
I bought the full version of TS back in Jan 2012. Does it expire?
I would appreciate any help in progressing from this point.
Yeh me
Photos coming soon.
Michel
Posted by: kg6dxn Jan 21 2013, 07:35 PM
Posted by: FourBlades Jan 21 2013, 07:54 PM
Nice progress! 
You will get it set up with all the help here.
John
Posted by: wndsrfr Jan 21 2013, 09:00 PM
I had the whole day from 8 am to 5 pm to work on my project. I got the manifolds, TB, and all the wiring done.
Well, the engine started right up and all sensors appeared to be reading something.
However, after the initial start up, the revs went past 4k before I turned off the ignition. I discovered the TPS was wired incorrectly. I fixed that, calibrated the TPS and the engine started up again. The idle then settled at 2600. I disconnected my fidle valve (it is normally closed), reduced the advance in the table and now idle is about 1200. TB is closed, so not sure where air is coming from. Also, it appears the engine speed does not change when I disconnect the #4 ignition coil and injector. I will need to check these.
Anyway, I ran out of gas, losing my sunlight> It was time to stop, and clean up. It really was a Good Day!
I bought the full version of TS back in Jan 2012. Does it expire?
I would appreciate any help in progressing from this point.
Yeh me
Photos coming soon.
Michel
Wow...first start is always a nail-biter with new injection--congrats!
A couple of things come to mind:
1. What are the A/F R's at idle? It doesn't take much air at all & I'm going to bet it's quite lean.
2. How much advance do you have in at 1000, 1500, 2000 RPM? I'm at 14, 15 & 21 at those speeds on my SDS system.
3. I'm assuming you're on MAP sensing for fueling--what vacuum reading are you seeing at idle? Do you have a "wild" cam in there?
This is gonna be fun....
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 4 2013, 06:52 PM
This weekend, I had chance to spend a couple of hours tuning, but, no real progress to report. I played aroud with the ignition timing, VE generator, AFR table.
I think there is something really wrong somewhere. At 1200 RPM, with measured timing of 15 degrees (with respect to TDC fan marking), the engine has no torque to pull the car forward even slipping the clutch is 1st gear. If I bump the timing reference at trigger wheel 10 degrees, which raises RPM to 3000, there is then enough torque to pull car forward.
To answer wndsrfr 's questions.
1. I think it was around 12.5, but, I need to recheck
2. I set my advance like your SDS system with no variation WRT load
3. I think it was 120%, but, will need to check that also
The cam is a Jake Raby 9530. Not sure how wild it is and it did not come with a card. Jake told me, the 9530 cam nets .465 lift at the intake valve, and about .450 on the exhaust.
I will get more accurate info and I also need to figure out how to use the log feature of TunerStudio.
I am thinking, that I may need to give full advance by 2000 rpm for this to work!
Posted by: JamesM Feb 5 2013, 12:50 AM
Step 1: Make sure you are firing on all 4. No point in trying to tune anything if you have a clogged/bad injector or bad coil.
Step 2: Make sure the timing table you are starting with makes sense. Even better, post it here. I find it easiest to start with a table that ignores all vacuum advance/retard and then work from there. Just map out what a mechnical advance only dizzy would do, say idle starting at somewhere from 0-10 deg and progressing up to 27-28 deg around 3-3.2k, that should be a good place to start.
Step 2b:SANITY CHECK, in Tuner Studio, make sure ALL sensors are reporting expected values. IAT and CHT should show roughly ambient temp before starting, TPS should reflect throttle position
Step 3: Tune idle for max vacuum. Play with the fueling and take note of the changes it is having on manifold vaccum, and shoot for the higest vaccum you can get. This should help with your torque off idle.
Step 4: Auto tune is your friend here. Set up your target AFR table IGNORE EVERYTHING you have read in MS documents abount AFR target numbers, starting out all your AFR targets are going to be between 13.5-12.5:1. You can play with leaning these out later, but to start this is where you want to be. Once the targets are in place start up the car, let it warm up as much as it can, turn on autotune in TS and then tune the no load section of the table. Basically from idle slowly rev up the engine and hold it at different RPMs while autotune does its thing. If it is missfiring due to being to lean or rich you may need to tweak it manually as the O2 sensor wont know whats going on. Do this until you can hold the engine at any RPM in neutral and it runs smooth as butter, most likley somewhere in the mid 13:1 AFR range.
Step 5: From here do a sanity check on your fuel map. Looking at the cells that have already been tuned using auto tune, as load and RPM increase so should the fuel. If for some reason you see the fuel values in the higher load bins to be less then the ones you just tuned then you can pretty much assume they wont work well. If nothing stands out as being obviously wrong then move on to the next step of running autotune at light loads the same way you just did no load, and repeate the process. Autotune - sanity check - Autotune slightly more load - sanity check -etc
obviously there is going to be a lot more to getting it fully dialed in, but this should get you a good driveable base map to start from.
Post your current MSQ and/or some datalogs and we can see if anything is standing out as being off.
-James
Posted by: DBCooper Feb 5 2013, 08:22 AM
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 5 2013, 10:33 AM
James,
Step 1: I have checked that all cylinders are firing. However, when I pulled coil connections, there is more of a change when pulling 3 and 1 than 2 and 4. I will need to recheck this. I have a friend that has a compression checker that I need to invite over. I was thinking this may have something to do with injector pairing?
Step 2: I tried to do this, see photo, but my idle advance may be too high. All sensors read what I think they should including TPS.
Step 3: “Tune idle for max vacuum.” and “ Play with the fueling” . Those are new concepts for me. I need to keep this in mind. Thanks for pointing this out.
Step 4 and 5: Current AFR and VE tables attached. “IGNORE EVERYTHING you have read in MS documents” Wow, as I have said in my videos, I have often found it very difficult to get exactly the info I needed to get this Megasquirt project up and rolling. Everyone’s configuration is different and the info on the internet spans a long period of time where many things keep changing for many reasons. James, you have given me a lot to chew on here
I could not attach is my current MSQ (not sure why as I have see some posted?). I can email it to you. Feel free to modify, comment or suggest anything. I also want to learn how to use the logger.
Thank you for your input,
Michel
Attached image(s)
Posted by: jpnovak Feb 5 2013, 09:30 PM
WTF? Why do you have an rpm values that go from 700 to 1100 and back down to 400 and then jump to 2000 rpm?
No wonder the car does not idle. Your ECU is confused since you have two 700 rpm columns.
This needs to be fixed now. Start about 100 rpm below your expected idle speed and then make smooth even steps all the way to redline.
Tuning fuel for maximum vacuum at idle. This just means add or remove fuel (increase/decrease VE value) until your MAP value is at its lowest. On the cars I tune this usually means an AFR about 12.8 or so. Then you go back and change timing until the MAP value stablizes.
Starting the car is a milestone for sure. Now you just need to start the tuning process. Think of it as changing carb jets with your fingertips.
Posted by: JamesM Feb 5 2013, 10:16 PM
x2, getting the engine started the first time is one of the hardest parts, and yeah there is a lot of sorting out to do here with those tables. I am guessing this may be a result of trying to import other peoples tables from different code versions (lower resolution) into yours.
As for #1 I am guessing that you have cyl 1 and 3 wired on the same injection bank. If this is indeed the case then 2 things come to my mind as a potential source of that problem either A. Wiring issue or B. some versions of the MS code allow you to fuel each injector bank using different tables, if you had this enabled with different tables for each bank then the fueling differences would account for why one bank has more of an effect then the other.
#2 good chance that it is, a copy of your MSQ and some data logs would help, ill PM you my email address
#3, Yup as was stated by others, at idle try adjusting your fuel up or down to achieve the lowest manifold pressure (highest vacuum)
#4 Aside from the wacky RPM bins your AFR target numbers don't look to bad though for an NA motor you probably don't need to go any richer then 12.5:1 at full load. Should be good enough to get you driving with autotune anyways.
From what you have shown so far I would say the first thing you need to do is fix your RPM bins on all your tables. They should go from low to high and be no duplicate bins. Also you probably dont need the sort of resolution down low that having bins at 400, 500, 700 and 900 would provide. Honestly you could make it run well on 1/4 the resolution that table provides, but we will work with what you have.
I will have to get out my laptop and start searching for settings that might give you greef, its been a while since I have been in Tunerstudio and dont remember everything off the top of my head.
Posted by: JamesM Feb 5 2013, 10:30 PM
A couple things I might recommending changing on your timing table. First is that everything after 3100 where you hit max advance is just wasted resolution. You may want to move your 3100 bin further to the right and add some more resolution into the middle where it will actually make a difference. Second is that you probably are a little over advanced at idle. What can happen is that you get sort of a runaway condition where the over advanced condition speeds up the idle into the next bin, which has even higher advance and speeds it up even more. Increasing the resolution down in the lower ranges and lowering the advance in all bins below 1500 will probably help bring your idle speed down
Posted by: kg6dxn Feb 5 2013, 10:38 PM
The ECU looks at all surrounding blocks. Not just the one is is running in. It then uses an algorithm to extrapolate where to go next.
With your map RPM's all over the place, the ECU will never run correctly. You need to get the RPM's in chronological order before you do anything else.
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Feb 5 2013, 10:55 PM
with everything above.
My VE table is about 25-30 LOWER on almost all values. ie, my idle on the ve is around 22 @ 900rpms. I would recommend highlighting all cells and lowering them all by around 20-25 and then run autotune. As you are right now, you will be pig-rich everywhere which will make it run poorly.
Posted by: JamesM Feb 5 2013, 11:09 PM
with everything above.My VE table is about 25-30 LOWER on almost all values. ie, my idle on the ve is around 22 @ 900rpms. I would recommend highlighting all cells and lowering them all by around 20-25 and then run autotune. As you are right now, you will be pig-rich everywhere which will make it run poorly.
VE values are relative to a bunch of other settings and can vary quite a bit from one car to another depending on how they were setup. Unless it is known that every peice of hardware and setting is 100% identical, just copying someones VE table will not give good results.
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 6 2013, 12:27 AM
I am loving all the feedback. Thank you everyone. James, you are correct, I copied some of the tables from others (with earlier versions of code )that were trying to help me along. I cut and pasted parts of two different files (text) the best way I could think of. To be honest, I had not noticed the rpm jump around that jpnovak pointed out. It is obvious now that that is a huge mistake. This is a learning process, and actually, everything about this project is just that. I lot of fun though
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 6 2013, 03:24 PM
I spent a little time changing my .msq file. Please make any comment you wish. Will be starting the engine again (hopefully) tomorrow.
Here are my revised AFR, ADV, and VE tables.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: JamesM Feb 6 2013, 03:58 PM
Haven't had time to look over your MSQ yet (still at work) but your RPM bins looks much better now, though it looks like on your fuel table you leaned out the idle and overrun area quite a bit, you were in the 40's and you lowered them to the 20s. If you were running at 40 you might have a hard time getting it to start and idle now.
Like i said before, the VE table is going to be relative to a bunch of other settings as well as the hardware setup, so you need to do what works for your setup, no someone elses.
I didn't ask, and may have overlooked this but, you do have a wideband sensor setup on this car correct?
-James
Posted by: jpnovak Feb 6 2013, 04:04 PM
Much better. You will find it much easier to adjust fuel VE values and see a difference now that you have a nice progression on the rpm axis.
I suggest that you start the car with the laptop running. Keep an eye on the AFR. (you do have a wideband O2 sensor connected, don't you.)
Don't be afraid to tune the fuel up and down and see what it does to the engine. Watch the AFR go down when you add fuel. Watch the AFR lean out when you take away fuel. Keep going until the engine stumbles then add fuel back to stabilize it. This is part of the learning process.
You will need to do this process for just about every point on the VE table. OK, not really, the AFR table will drive the VE Analyze Live just fine while you drive. However, the results are only as good as the target value. Each engine runs differently with variations in AFR.
Posted by: JamesM Feb 6 2013, 04:05 PM
Also, depending on where you are idleing you will probably need to drop the advance at 1200RPM down to around 10 or below as well. What is going to happen with your current setup is the MS will average the 900 and 1200 RPM value depending on what RPM it is as between those, so say you are idleing at 1000RPM it will have your timming around 12deg which may get you back into that runaway situation where the speed will increase and in turn cause the advance to increase.
If you set both the 900 and 1200 range to the same value then any speed between those 2 RPMs will be locked at whatever advance you set. This will help stabilize your idle quite a bit. I would probably drop both those columns down to 8deg at least.
Your target AFRs up top are pretty rich as well, I would set the max around 12.5
Posted by: kg6dxn Feb 6 2013, 08:18 PM
3700 rpm @ 85% load needs to be smoothed out. If you look at that on a 3D map, it's a big dip in your fuel there. If it runs better at the present setting, raise it slightly and lower the surrounding cells slightly. The ECU will try to average out the cells (automatically as it runs) and stumble on big peaks or dips.
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 6 2013, 09:35 PM
I could not wait until tomorrow. I changed the advance to 10 degrees at 900 and 1200 and smoothed out the VE table. It started right up, but was a bit rough. I changed the injector pairing from 1-4, 2-3 to 1-3, 2-4 and idle got a lot smoother.
It got dark and looks like I ran out of gas again 
I am starting to get a feel for it, but, the whole concept of VE and how it relates to fuel enrichment is not very clear to me. At idle (1000RPM), MAP was reading 80. and fuel load was 85%. I think VE was 65. Does this make sense?
I tought TS had a logger, but, could not find it.
Posted by: kg6dxn Feb 6 2013, 10:19 PM
As you start to tune, play with only one setting. That way you WILL KNOW if it makes a difference. If you start adjusting too many things, you will loose track of where the actual improvement came from.
Follow the manual's list of things to tweek in order. Save a new file every time your done. Put a date or description of the tweek that worked. I used to save mine like this...
2-6-13 good idle-timing tweek rev1 2pm
I would save 4 or 5 files per day sometimes... I could then go back to a good file when I fuched one up and start over.
Posted by: JamesM Feb 7 2013, 05:32 PM
humm... I would think MAP should be a lot lower then 80, though the cam may have a lot to do with that. I just looked up the 9530 and jake states on his site that it is not compatable with ANY injection, stock or aftermarket. I also saw another ports where he recomends not using the 9530 on a 2270. Im not sure what affect this is going to have when tunning, might just make it more fun.
When you get to starting it up again check the AFR at idle try and get it adjusted down to around 12.8 (i have a feeling you are lean) Also maybe double check the actual timing with a timming light again. Let us know the MAP reading once this is done. I would hope to see the MAP reading down to at least 50 if not in the 30s.
Worst case i think if the cam doesent produce good vaccum is that you could switch over to alpha-n fueling. lets not jump there just yet though.
I could not wait until tomorrow. I changed the advance to 10 degrees at 900 and 1200 and smoothed out the VE table. It started right up, but was a bit rough. I changed the injector pairing from 1-4, 2-3 to 1-3, 2-4 and idle got a lot smoother.
It got dark and looks like I ran out of gas again
I am starting to get a feel for it, but, the whole concept of VE and how it relates to fuel enrichment is not very clear to me. At idle (1000RPM), MAP was reading 80. and fuel load was 85%. I think VE was 65. Does this make sense?
I tought TS had a logger, but, could not find it.
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 7 2013, 10:28 PM
Interesting. I spoke to Jake personally on a couple of occasion and he was very helpful. We also exchanged emails. He sold me that cam knowing the displacement, stroke, bore, and compression I wanted to achieve (8.3 on all cylinders). I also purchased pistons and other parts from him. It ran ok with carbs except for sluggish mid range. I was hoping FI would correct for this. Hope it does.
In fact, I purchased one of his early customs grinds back in 2005 that had very similar specs to the 9530. I ran this in a 2270 high compression engine. That engine did not idle well, but, over 3k it pulled like crazy to redline and more. Too bad I used poor re-built heads and dropped a seat, but that is another story
What I have is what I have. We will make the best of it for now.
Engine would not start today. Needed to charge battery. I will let you know about MAP reading at idle once I get going again.
Alpha-n? Who runs in this mode?
Posted by: JamesM Feb 8 2013, 12:17 PM
I have read posts on other forums with people using the 9530 with FI just fine, so i am not sure why jake says on his store that it is not FI compatable. Honestly it does not concern me to much as I am pretty sure that if an engine runs, it can be made to run with Megasquirt one way or another, given all the options that are available.
Alpha-N is for use in situations where there is low manifold vaccum, usually ITBs or extreme cams. A guy I work with run Alpha-N on his GTI rally car with ITBs. It does not use the MAP value to calculate fuel but rather throttle position and RPM. I am sure only Jake knows the full specs of the 9530, but from what I am reading it does not seem that extreme, so there may be somthing else out of place here.
Where are you pulling your MAP signal from? When was the last time you did a valve adjustment?
As with everythign Megasquirt related, tons of reading involved. This just touches on it http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MAP_Alpha_N.htm
Posted by: Michelj13 Feb 10 2013, 10:53 PM
Yes, today was a Big Day I drove it around the block 
. It was limping, but, it had enough torque to do it....no stalling either. Yeh me
After a well deserved
I made the realization, that I am truly NOT certain about my measured ignition timing. I have been reading that using a dial type timing light may induce timing errors when used with wasted spark system. (double advance issue). This needs to be sorted, and a number of other small details need to be addressed before I move on further, such as oil breather system, a more elegant throttle hookup, fuel pump re-wiring, and oh yes, vehicle registration and a few other things.
There is still a lot to sort out, tune, understand but I do feel confident that I will get there.
Posted by: toon1 Feb 23 2013, 07:12 AM
80on your MAP at idle seems real high.
i have the 9550 cam with MSII running a 36-1 trigger wheel and wasted spark (ford ignition) and the MAP is around 56ish at idle.
The map you get at idle is greatly affected by cam overlap.
If you are running rich at idle it will give you a higher map also.
Mt 1.7 seems to like about 13-1 fuel ratio at idle (and kinda all around).
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 4 2013, 05:24 PM
Sunday, I had some time to do some tuning. I was able to identify without a doubt that the "0" marking on the fan was indeed TDC. I even put a wooden stick down the #1 plug hole and rotated the engine to make sure piston was at its highest at that point.
Knowing this, I got the engine started, but could not get it to idle at 1000 RPM unless timing was set to +5 degrees as observed at the fan. It did idle nicely with this timing. With a bit of throttle input, the engine speed increased nicely to the maximun ignition advance set to 33 degrees, at which point I could see the 28 timing mark on the fan. I don't know how to explain this 
I am really starting to think, this cam was not the best choice for my engine
Posted by: JamesM Mar 4 2013, 06:14 PM
Sunday, I had some time to do some tuning. I was able to identify without a doubt that the "0" marking on the fan was indeed TDC. I even put a wooden stick down the #1 plug hole and rotated the engine to make sure piston was at its highest at that point.
Knowing this, I got the engine started, but could not get it to idle at 1000 RPM unless timing was set to +5 degrees as observed at the fan. It did idle nicely with this timing. With a bit of throttle input, the engine speed increased nicely to the maximun ignition advance set to 33 degrees, at which point I could see the 28 timing mark on the fan. I don't know how to explain this
I am really starting to think, this cam was not the best choice for my engine
I am not sure I follow exactly what you are saying, Is the issue that what you are actually seeing on the fan is not matching what MS is showing? If so there should be an adjustment for that though I would have to look it up as i run a different code version and trigger with my setup. If 5deg advance at idle is what you are actually seeing then you should be ok there. I have mine at 8deg but only because that is as low as I can set it with my particular trigger setup.
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 4 2013, 09:03 PM
James,
I wish I had a good idle at 5 degrees of advance. I guess I should have said, I need to set 5 degrees of retard to achieve a good idle. Maybe, I AM retarded, but that is what I am observing 
Posted by: jpnovak Mar 4 2013, 09:30 PM
If you set 5 ATDC timing in TunerStudio (or Megatune), What does the timing read with a timing light? These numbers should match. If not, you need to change the trigger offset value in the software until they match. Do this first before changing advance values in the table.
Also, What does your AFR read? I don't think you have answered the question if you have a wideband sensor. It is very possible that your engine mixture is off and this is why you need such advanced timing.
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 4 2013, 09:51 PM
I have a wideband O2 sensor from AEM. At idle, AFR is about 12.5, MAP is 85.
The timing can be adjusted with both trigger offset and advanced in TS ignition advance table. I have been around and around with these. It can get a little confusing especially looking through a mirror at fan markings. Bottom line is, at the fan, I need 5 degrees ATDC to achieve idle when looking at the fan markings.
I know it does not make sense. I will be a few days before I can play some more.
Posted by: JamesM Mar 4 2013, 11:51 PM
You need to be absolutely sure that the timing you are setting in megasquirt matches the timming you are actually seeing with your timing light. When you get the time to work on it again here is what I would do.
1.Make sure your fan has all the timming marks so you can see them with a timming light. Just to eliminate variables here you dont want to use an adjustable advance timming light so we will need all the marks.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_timing/914_timing.pdf
2. Under the ignition settings there should be an option for "Fixed Advanced", enable this (rather then use table) and set the fixed advance to 7.5 deg. If your car wont start with this setting then you can start it using the table and switched to fixed advanced with it running.
3. Every ignition event *should* occur now at 7.5 deg advance regardless of engine RPM or load. Confirm this with the timming light, you should see the 7.5 deg mark, if not then something is set incorrectly with your ignition setup and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be done. Most likely this will be the trigger angle that needs to be adjusted. Adjust until you are actually seeing the engine fire at the fixed 7.5. This confirms that the advance that MS is sending is the advance you are actually getting. Once this is has been confirmed change the fixed advance setting back to use table.
4. As an extra check that things are advancing properly I will set all bins on the ignition table 3000RPM and above to 27deg advance then check the timming while holding the engine RPMs over 3000, you should see the 27deg mark with the timming light.
This is all just another sanity check but should confirm that what you are seeing on the timming table in MS is what you are actually getting. VERY important to do before trying to tune, otherwise you are just chasing your tail.
Posted by: jpnovak Mar 5 2013, 12:43 PM
James, Excellent description of the process to baseline the timing output.
I am surprised that you do not have better than 85kPa at idle. Even with ITBs and a bigger cam on my 911 I could see better vacuum numbers than this.
If you put your had over the throttle do you actually feel vacuum? I suspect you might have an air leak. I use my compressor to put about 10psi through the vacuum port that the MS unit is connected to. Then listen for air leaks. You may have to tape off the throttle body to seal that end while you listen for leaks. Any common plenum should give you more of a vacuum at idle - even with narrow cam lobe ceters on a hot cam.
You may try the MS Extra code in ITB mode to transition the switch from speed-density to alpha-n at low rpm.
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 6 2013, 08:56 AM
I had a bit of a breakthrough last night. I swapped my injector plugs around "just to see" and this resulted in a much smoother running engine. It was dark and I am not sure who is on who, but it ran better, no doubt. Also, it was idling (1000 rpm)at TDC instead on 5 ATDC! VE analyse was working too
James,your description of timing in excellent. Thanks. I printed the timing label and cut it out and compared it with the markings on my fan. It all matches. I even calculated the distance between fan blades to 7.3 degrees! My friend has a timing light with wasted spark setting that I need to borrow to confirm my timing.
JP, I have been wondering about air leaks also. I will try your suggestion Thanks. OMG, alpha N again 
I will try that too to see.
It is amazing how much fuel I am using tuning this thing!
Posted by: JamesM Mar 6 2013, 12:50 PM
Stay away from Alpha-N for now, that should be the absolute last resort. From what I have read about your cam, and the fact that you are running from a common plenum I dont think you will need to go there.
You will be suprised how much timing and fuel changes can affect your idle vaccum, I was.
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 11 2013, 10:27 PM
Well, I have been fighting a few issues before going on my first 5 mile drive. One of them, was a huge vacuum leak. I found a piece of wire lodged between the head and intake manifold. This caused the gasket to break and the result was a high pitched whistling sound when reving. I also added clamps to the boots connecting the intake runners to the plenum. I use a stetoscope to detect these leaks. I am also building a smoke machine to play with.
Now with a few less vacumm leaks I ran the car about 5 miles. The engine is surprising strong. Staying below 2500 Rpm, the engine pulls smoothly and nicely. When stopping, the engine almost dies, drops to 700 rpm and the climbs back up to 1000 before settling, so I need to work on the idle. I would love to see how folks are setting up their WUE etc.
After 2500 rpm, the there are a few hits as it climbs to 4000, but it kept pulling really hard to almost 5K. Wow, I can't wait to get this thing dialed in.
There is still so much to learn too. Wish I had gone to COP instead of CNP using ford coils and Type 4 ignition wires. The wires are not up to the task of shielding such a high voltage ( I have suffered at least 3 shocks 
)
Posted by: Sneezy Mar 12 2013, 07:48 AM
So you guys are spending hundreds and hundreds of hours and who knows how much money and you end up with batch firing and stock sized intake runners?
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 12 2013, 07:56 AM
No.
But what's your point, really?
.
Posted by: jpnovak Mar 12 2013, 08:27 AM
Glad to hear you found the vacuum leak. did this help your MAP reading at low rpm? I suspect so.
The car should be easy to tune now.
If the car wants to die during off-throttle coast-down you need to check the decel fuel cut limit. raise the rpm limit a few hundred. You can also add timing to the lowest bins in the table at idle.
Don't forget that the stock MAP and rpm values rarely match each engine. Adjust these to match the lowest MAP reading in the second or third row. Then scale the rpm for your idle and redline. Then start tuning the engine. No sense in having rpm values to 7000 if you redline at 5500. Also, stop the MAP readings at 100kPa or close to this. No need to go higher unless you are running boost.
btw, if you are getting shocked then you might have a ground issue. Check the ground from coil to ground and plugs as well. You should not get shocked. It also could be that the wires are not seated properly at the plugs.
Posted by: JamesM Mar 12 2013, 09:36 AM
So you guys are spending hundreds and hundreds of hours and who knows how much money and you end up with batch firing and stock sized intake runners?
Seriously, what is your point?
Troll much? Not sure this even justifies a response but:
1. Nothing wrong with batch firing. Seqnential injection has little if any advantage as under load you are still firing on closed valves with either setup. Also MS can be setup to do sequential injection but again, no point in spending the time to do it.
2. Changing intake runner size? Why? Going with larger intake runners is not some magic bullet to net more power. It may shift the power band some and it could also decrease power. Also, again, he is not locked with these with MS but chose to use them.
3. I think i spent about 100 bucks converting my car to MS.
4. Seeing as how all the parts used are pretty much bolt on, even going the hard way like i did and solder my own board you are looking at maybe 20-40 hours.
I am not sure what you think the point of a custom fuel injection is, but the main advantage here is tuneability and replacement of NLA parts, not magically making your car go faster by ignoring the laws of physics.
Now that i have laid out the facts, back to the original point of your troll post (being a troll post) As to not dissapoint, here is a response for that too:
1. How is that "Tornado Air Intake" working out for you? Pulling some big numbers?
2. You are an @$$hat.
Good day Sir!
Posted by: FourBlades Mar 12 2013, 10:44 AM
Great progress. I have enjoyed following this thread. 
I think a lot of people have thought about putting MS on their 914.
Now your thread even has haters and drama!
John
Posted by: JamesM Mar 12 2013, 10:55 AM
Great progress. I have enjoyed following this thread.
I think a lot of people have thought about putting MS on their 914.
Now your thread even has haters and drama!
John
All in good fun!
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 12 2013, 05:36 PM
JP. I like your your idea of re-scaling my MAP table. I will do that for sure.
As I have said, there are still more vacuum leaks, but at least I got rid of the big ones. Unfortunately, my MAP value at idle is still only about 70. I am not too happy about that from what I know so far. Maybe the camshaft is causing this?
Sure, this project has cost me about $1000, but with me, the journey is a HUGE part of the fun! At the end of the day, I have learned quite a bit, and this may open doors for more MS projects (ie MS moded VW Corrado comes to mind). I need to follow through with this one though and then the plan is to document all my settings, wiring, and what I would have done different ( I can think of a thing or two already ).
Posted by: ddv005 Oct 30 2013, 08:21 PM
So you guys are spending hundreds and hundreds of hours and who knows how much money and you end up with batch firing and stock sized intake runners?
You forgot to say that it is a stand alone , fully programmable engine management batch firing system
I dare you tell me what is a better solution ?
Posted by: Michelj13 Nov 30 2014, 07:41 PM
After a rather long hiatus, I will attempt to get my 914 Megasquirt project running again. In March of 2013, I removed the MS harness because my idle valve was not working (it was mis-wired), then I found out that I had to move from the home I had been in for over 17 years.
I had a lot of fixin to get the house ready for sale, and the new house had plenty of stuff that needed attention too. Now that things have settled down, I am diving back in to the 914.
I made some changes, went from using the ford CNP to LS2 coils, and cleaned up the wiring. I hope to have the car at least started by the new year. I am slow but steady.
Here is a link to latest youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=honxgcZVcjo&feature=youtu.be
Posted by: McMark Nov 30 2014, 08:41 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, but did see the bit about swapping injector plugs. Most people wire their injectors in opposing pairs (#1 and #3, #2 and #4) but this isn't ideal. You want to pair them in the firing order. Our firing order is 1-4-3-2. So #1 and #4 should be paired and #3 and #2 should be paired.
Posted by: Michelj13 Nov 30 2014, 08:59 PM
Hi Mark,
I did noticed the 1+3 and 2+4 injector pairing on a few of the threads also. I had 1+4 paired on INJ2 and 2+3 paired together on INJ1. So, I swapped them so that INJ1 has 1+4 and INJ2 has the 2+3 pair.
Thank you
Posted by: Mike Bellis Nov 30 2014, 10:02 PM
I think the effect on a batch fire injector out of order would be negligible. We are talking about milliseconds of injector time 700-6000 times per minute.
If it were direct fire, the effect would be substantial.
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 17 2015, 01:10 AM
As I have said in the past, I am slow but steady. Had a chance to install the new harnesses and both the "new" LS2 driver board and relay board (with tach adapter in place of one of the relays).
Once I got it hooked up, changed the oil and gas, filters etc. it started right up. Amazing!!
I tuned it up a bit around the block several times and went to visit a friend - about 5 miles away. It runs great to about 3500rpm (with tons of torque, can even start in 2nd gear from stop, but then has a hard time reving past that point with low power. Lots of tuning to do yet.
I was almost at friends house when the engine reved up and then RPM dropped to idle barely keeping engine running. I discovered that the MAP sensor tubing got chopped in fan as I did not secure it to anything. I fixed it temporarily with outer insulation of a coax cable and tape. I think it was still leaking but it got me home. So, total trip was 10 miles.
Next phase of project is learning more about tuning, VE table, advance curves that work best, etc. Wish I knew someone in the area with a lot of Megasquirt experience.
Here are a few photos of harness and relay and ignition boards
Attached image(s)
Posted by: toon1 Mar 17 2015, 11:23 AM
As I have said in the past, I am slow but steady. Had a chance to install the new harnesses and both the "new" LS2 driver board and relay board (with tach adapter in place of one of the relays).
Once I got it hooked up, changed the oil and gas, filters etc. it started right up. Amazing!!
I tuned it up a bit around the block several times and went to visit a friend - about 5 miles away. It runs great to about 3500rpm (with tons of torque, can even start in 2nd gear from stop, but then has a hard time reving past that point with low power. Lots of tuning to do yet.
I was almost at friends house when the engine reved up and then RPM dropped to idle barely keeping engine running. I discovered that the MAP sensor tubing got chopped in fan as I did not secure it to anything. I fixed it temporarily with outer insulation of a coax cable and tape. I think it was still leaking but it got me home. So, total trip was 10 miles.
Next phase of project is learning more about tuning, VE table, advance curves that work best, etc. Wish I knew someone in the area with a lot of Megasquirt experience.
Here are a few photos of harness and relay and ignition boards
I didn't read the whole thread.....
Are you running the LS coils in wasted spark mode or Sequential?
As far as timing and VE tuning it's trial and error.
I have found that bringing in timing quickly has worked well.
My VE tables are about 43(approx. 13:1 AFR) at idle and in the 60's in normal driving area.
VE is in the 70's under harder accel.
As far as AE enrichment, it's dependent on how you drive.
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 17 2015, 12:36 PM
Tooni, thanks for info. LS coils are presently connected in wasted spark mode, but, connections for sequential are there except for a couple of jumpers and cam sensor signal needed.
I feel the LS coil conversion reduced the noise at the MSU significantly. Now, my USB connection never drops
Wish I would have gone that way from the beginning 
Posted by: toon1 Mar 17 2015, 01:21 PM
Tooni, thanks for info. LS coils are presently connected in wasted spark mode, but, connections for sequential are there except for a couple of jumpers and cam sensor signal needed.
I feel the LS coil conversion reduced the noise at the MSU significantly. Now, my USB connection never drops
Wish I would have gone that way from the beginning
I was just reading some of the thread....James suggested to set the "base" timing to 7.5*.
If you are using a 36-1 TW and set it up, on the engine, as per the Mega manual, 7.5* is wrong.
The default is 10* BTDC. This could be why your MAP is so high. I have the 9550 can and my map at idle is 45ish KPa.
My advance at idle is about 13.5*
Posted by: crash914 Mar 17 2015, 02:47 PM
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Posted by: toon1 Mar 18 2015, 11:06 AM
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Mar 18 2015, 12:43 PM
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
I am using a trigger wheel/bracket/hall sensor kit w/ LS2 coils from www.thedubshop.net with great success. I used to run a VR sensor when I ran EDIS and always had noise issues (which is always an issue/battle with VR sensors). With the hall sensor, I get clean signals and not one hiccup since the upgrade. Talk to Mario at thedubshop.net.
Posted by: toon1 Mar 18 2015, 04:02 PM
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
I am using a trigger wheel/bracket/hall sensor kit w/ LS2 coils from www.thedubshop.net with great success. I used to run a VR sensor when I ran EDIS and always had noise issues (which is always an issue/battle with VR sensors). With the hall sensor, I get clean signals and not one hiccup since the upgrade. Talk to Mario at thedubshop.net.
What kind of noise were you getting?
What symptoms did you see with the noise?
Does the car seem to perform better with the LS2 coils?
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Mar 19 2015, 07:23 AM
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
I am using a trigger wheel/bracket/hall sensor kit w/ LS2 coils from www.thedubshop.net with great success. I used to run a VR sensor when I ran EDIS and always had noise issues (which is always an issue/battle with VR sensors). With the hall sensor, I get clean signals and not one hiccup since the upgrade. Talk to Mario at thedubshop.net.
What kind of noise were you getting?
What symptoms did you see with the noise?
Does the car seem to perform better with the LS2 coils?
The noise is interference from other wiring that it crosses in the harness getting to the ECU. That is why VR sensor wiring MUST be shielded. This interference can cause random misfires or a loss of signal from the VR sensor. In my old system (MS2 w/ EDIS) I would occasionally get a random misfire when the engine was cold and under certain loads. 99% of the time, there was not an issue, but it was always frustrating that 1% of the time.
You can use the same trigger wheels with hall sensors (3 wire sensor) and it's un-effected by other wiring that crosses it. I have never had a misfire since moving to a hall sensor and the LS2 coils. Perfect signal, perfect spark.
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Mar 19 2015, 07:31 AM
I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
I've run Denso Iridium IW20 plugs since moving to MS and have been VERY happy with their performance and longevity. They are worth the investment IMHO.
Posted by: toon1 Mar 19 2015, 09:42 AM
Any notable performance gains with the PS2 coils?
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Mar 19 2015, 12:57 PM
Any notable performance gains with the PS2 coils?
Yes. Trying to accelerate with that random misfire, when it would occur, SUCKED. Now it does not happen; EVER. Just nice acceleration as it should.
Any performance gains by switching from EDIS (wasted spark) to the LS2 COP (sequential spark) is likely only noticeable on a dyno. Since I currently have this on the 2056cc with a red-line set @ 5600rpms, I'm not turning the motor fast enough to really see the benefits of the hotter spark at high rpms that sequential COP provides by doubling the dwell time on the coils.
In all fairness, you could likely have a similar result by using a hall sensor with EDIS. If you're buying all the parts new, then IMHO you may as well go LS2 COP and be done with it since the cost is comparable.
Posted by: Tom Mar 19 2015, 02:35 PM
Just as an information piece for you guys running wires that are being shielded, remember to ground only one end of the shield. If you ground both ends of the shield, it can become a current carrying source and the resulting EM field from that current can cause noise also. Why does grounding the wire at both ends do this? All ground points are not the same potential! A good insurance method is to run a dedicated LARGE ( like 2 or 4 gage ) ground wire around to where you need grounds for this system and hook all of your grounds to that.
Tom
Posted by: crash914 Mar 19 2015, 03:57 PM
I will look into the plugs, I have to use 10mm plugs so selection for resistor plugs is limited...it looks like I will have to add a quadspark module for the 4 logic level outputs as I only have the one with my older unit...
Posted by: Michelj13 Mar 19 2015, 06:28 PM
Here is circuit I used to on MS board to trigger LS2 coils in wasted spark mode. The LS coils only require 5 volts to trigger. The coils have built-in ignitors. You need to supply a ground and +12V from battery ( I also used a relay) to the coil connector.
I also built a dedicated ignition board to help clean up the wiring.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: crash914 Mar 20 2015, 03:01 AM
Ok, got it...thanks!
Posted by: Michelj13 May 31 2015, 10:13 PM
Hi,
I have almost 250 miles on my MS setup. It really runs very well as is, but, now I am into the finer points of tuning.
I have an issue I have that I cannot figure out. Once the engine starts from cold and finds a nice idle after a minute ( I sometimes need to use very light throttle, to keep it going and bring rpm up), then for the next 5 minutes after engine is at a very stable idle speed, the engine surges to about 2500-3000 rpm and slowly come back down to idle speed (1000). This occurs whenever I touch the throttle a bit of store auto tune of burn some new data to the ecu.
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Any help appreciated
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 1 2020, 06:07 PM
It's been 5 years and megasquirt project is still running. Not perfect, but quite good.
Enjoy the video below. You may want to start at the 1:45 time, pretty boring until then.
https://youtu.be/NTkOdxpMdq0
Enjoy :-)
Posted by: GregAmy Dec 1 2020, 06:56 PM
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Are you running an idle control/bypass valve? Could be the logic on when it activates is borked. Or something in the warm up tables.
I do not run an idle control valve at all, and do not have that problem with Microsquirt.
Maybe try unplugging the control valve and seeing if that behavior persists.
GA
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 1 2020, 07:24 PM
Yes I am running an idle control valve in closed loop mode. I agree, its some adjustment in the warm up. I ran in open loop just using the clt sensor data to control my idle valve for years and just recently have been successful with the closed loop idle mode.
The closed loop idle has been the most difficult part of megasquirt. I'm really close.
Posted by: JamesM Dec 2 2020, 12:39 AM
Hi,
I have almost 250 miles on my MS setup. It really runs very well as is, but, now I am into the finer points of tuning.
I have an issue I have that I cannot figure out. Once the engine starts from cold and finds a nice idle after a minute ( I sometimes need to use very light throttle, to keep it going and bring rpm up), then for the next 5 minutes after engine is at a very stable idle speed, the engine surges to about 2500-3000 rpm and slowly come back down to idle speed (1000). This occurs whenever I touch the throttle a bit of store auto tune of burn some new data to the ecu.
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Any help appreciated
If you post your current MSQ(tune file) and a datalog of the issue it might help identify what is going on. It could be the way your idle valve is setup but it could also be your warm up table, fuel table, ignition table, or any combination of all of those. To many variables to guess at, need data.
Posted by: BeatNavy Dec 2 2020, 08:21 AM
Yes, I'd be interested in seeing your MSQ as well. I've got a 2270 running Microsquirt, and I agree, closed loop idle tuning can be a challenge. I've been fiddling with it on and off for the last 6 months. There are so many variables to play with (cold advance, RPM targets and advance, general timing, PID values, VE table, etc. etc.), and because you only get one real cold start per day, it just takes a long time. My situation seems to be complicated by the fact that my idle AFR numbers don't seem usable. Right now I have the following:
1. Somewhat difficult cold start and initial idle (first 30 seconds or so) -- I've made progress here, but it's slow, and sometimes I think my PWM isn't big enough.
2. Closed loop idle generally steady around 1000 RPM, sometimes. But I can't figure out why other times I'll get a hanging idle up around 1400 that won't come down.
3. Otherwise it runs well and pulls strong and is a blast to drive.
A huge part of doing this is just learning more about how modern FI works. But in the unlikely event Jeff Bowlsby wanders into this thread, I'll admit that it's amazing how the Porsche / Bosch engineers made D-Jet work so well given the tools they had at the time, and how simple it really is. A well-tuned D-Jet car starts, idles, and runs nicely.
Would like to hear more about your setup/experience. At least a few more of us here have "jumped into the MS pool" since you built your setup.
Posted by: GregAmy Dec 2 2020, 10:35 AM
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
Posted by: BeatNavy Dec 2 2020, 10:45 AM
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
C'mon, Greg, what else would I do with my time other than chase the perfect idle, right?
That's kind of what I was saying (again, I'll deny ever saying this if Jeff asks): my D-Jet with 1-2-3 dizzy was rock solid idle, with so many fewer variables.
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 2 2020, 09:38 PM
Would love to get the closed loop idle just a little better.
I don't mind asking for help from someone who knows more than me.
Attached is my msq files and data log taken from posted video. I though it could help me watching the video and also studying the file on megalogviewer at same time.
2020_12_01_13.37.3rd_video.mlg ( 1.04mb )
Number of downloads: 119
2020_12_01_13.46.10.after_videos.msq ( 117.71k )
Number of downloads: 103
then I will take it to a dyno to get it all dialed in. Promise to share the video too :-)
Posted by: Frank S Dec 3 2020, 01:39 AM
Hi Rob,
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.
Take care,
Frank
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
C'mon, Greg, what else would I do with my time other than chase the perfect idle, right?
That's kind of what I was saying (again, I'll deny ever saying this if Jeff asks): my D-Jet with 1-2-3 dizzy was rock solid idle, with so many fewer variables.
Posted by: BeatNavy Dec 3 2020, 08:16 AM
Hi Rob,
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.
Take care,
Frank
Hi @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18632 !
Yes, I think you're right. I guess "rock solid" is a somewhat imprecise term. Looking at the tach it looks fairly solid, but then you look at the datalog and you can see some bouncing around. I'm still playing with it, and I just started playing with idle advance settings a few days ago. So many variables and tools at one's disposal with this system. I always appreciate your input as well as others like James and Greg's.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2122 , thanks for posting those files. I looked them over and re-read your post from the beginning. We have similar setups (I have a Raby 9950), although your injectors are somewhat smaller. In any event, those files have given me some good info and ideas to try. I think I learn more from one good Type 4-specific MS thread here than I do from all the random threads on the Megasquirt forum. I'll post a tune and datalog file here soon as well.
Thanks again, and I apologize as I don't want to hijack your thread.
Posted by: Frank S Dec 3 2020, 11:43 AM
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
Just do that adjustments with the fully warmed up engine.
Good idle is a combination of fueling, ignition timing and th extra air you add.
Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?
You are also loosing sync once within the short log.
Take care,
Frank
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 4 2020, 12:52 AM
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
Posted by: JamesM Dec 4 2020, 01:28 AM
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.
I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.
With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.
Dont have my tuning laptop in front of me atm, ill take a look at the logs when i do.
Posted by: Frank S Dec 4 2020, 04:18 AM
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.
You must fix the sync los problem!
Posted by: BeatNavy Dec 4 2020, 02:08 PM
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.
I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.
With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.
Guys, this is very good information, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification if you would be so kind as to entertain:
1. I have heard you all talk about tuning idle to lowest possible MAP. It looks like both @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2122 and I, with our Raby cams perhaps, have real difficulty idling below 70 kpa. Having said that, I guess you have to FIRST pick a target idle RPM, right, and then tune the fuel cells in the area of the VE table there for lowest MAP, correct? I mean, I get a much lower MAP when I pump more fuel/air into it, but then I'm idling more around 1200 to 1400. Yes, my AFR idle numbers are useless.
2. In terms of timing, I have always heard that Type 4's like the 12-14 degrees BTDC, but I also seem to hear that in closed loop settings it's good to set the ignition table in the idle range to something significantly lower than that so the idle advance settings have "room to advance" for adding RPM. Is that fair?
As always, I appreciate the insight. I've attached my current tune and a 10-minute, fairly boring datalog of my cruise today just so Michelj13 can see it. It idled pretty well in CL and ran well, although I think I'm lean in spots. At some point I was running so rich that I think I'm erring on the side of lean now.
Michelj13, like you I have a little trouble with the first start of the day. I can't get the tune to where it fires right up, stays running without any pedal feathering, and the RPM climbs to a healthy 1200 or more. In my case it may initially stall after catching, and then the second time with a little pedal it'll gain some heat / momentum. At that point, with CLT in the 70 degree range or so, it will stay running but with an anemic idle in the 600 to 700 range. Once CLT hits about 85 or 90 it starts getting much more stable and strong.
I meant to do a datalog of a cold start this morning, but forgot. How often do you do that? Take your laptop out to the garage with some new variables changed all ready to gather some good data. Upload the tune and fire it up without starting a datalog
10-Minute Cruise with some idling at the end:
2020_12_04_10_Minute_Cruise.mlg ( 1.47mb )
Number of downloads: 82My current tune:
Good_Idle___Little_Lean_at_Cruise.msq ( 119.42k )
Number of downloads: 81Posted by: Frank S Dec 4 2020, 05:01 PM
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.
I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.
With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.
Guys, this is very good information, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification if you would be so kind as to entertain:
1. I have heard you all talk about tuning idle to lowest possible MAP. It looks like both @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2122 and I, with our Raby cams perhaps, have real difficulty idling below 70 kpa. Having said that, I guess you have to FIRST pick a target idle RPM, right, and then tune the fuel cells in the area of the VE table there for lowest MAP, correct? I mean, I get a much lower MAP when I pump more fuel/air into it, but then I'm idling more around 1200 to 1400. Yes, my AFR idle numbers are useless.
You need to ask Jake for what idle RPM the cam was designed.
At higher RPM you'll allways get lower MAP reading
If you change IGN timing or fueling you need also to adjust "air" to keep the desired RPM.
Just try something inbetween 1000 and 1050 RPM (just guessing)
2. In terms of timing, I have always heard that Type 4's like the 12-14 degrees BTDC, but I also seem to hear that in closed loop settings it's good to set the ignition table in the idle range to something significantly lower than that so the idle advance settings have "room to advance" for adding RPM. Is that fair?
That's fair but you don't need to add or pull so many degrees in timing. When I check your log, you are running between 4 and 6° Advance during idle...
As always, I appreciate the insight. I've attached my current tune and a 10-minute, fairly boring datalog of my cruise today just so Michelj13 can see it. It idled pretty well in CL and ran well, although I think I'm lean in spots. At some point I was running so rich that I think I'm erring on the side of lean now.
Michelj13, like you I have a little trouble with the first start of the day. I can't get the tune to where it fires right up, stays running without any pedal feathering, and the RPM climbs to a healthy 1200 or more. In my case it may initially stall after catching, and then the second time with a little pedal it'll gain some heat / momentum. At that point, with CLT in the 70 degree range or so, it will stay running but with an anemic idle in the 600 to 700 range. Once CLT hits about 85 or 90 it starts getting much more stable and strong.
You are actually pulling RPM/Air at low temps in your MSQ.
I meant to do a datalog of a cold start this morning, but forgot. How often do you do that? Take your laptop out to the garage with some new variables changed all ready to gather some good data. Upload the tune and fire it up without starting a datalog
10-Minute Cruise with some idling at the end:
2020_12_04_10_Minute_Cruise.mlg ( 1.47mb )
Number of downloads: 82My current tune:
Good_Idle___Little_Lean_at_Cruise.msq ( 119.42k )
Number of downloads: 81Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 7 2020, 03:40 PM
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.
You must fix the sync los problem!
I spent some time with the megalogviewer today (first time actually) and have identified the sync loss as Frank S pointed out (see pic). Now I have to fix this, but where to start? I tried to find the crank tooth log but discovered that only the high speed logger can log this information. Why could this not be included in the regular Data log? Can I run the High Speed logger together with the Datalog? How do I correlate both?
Anyway, I went for a short ride (10 min) to Lowes and there were no sync loses, engine started great, idled right away, and everything ran perfectly. I took another Datalog on the way back and logged 3 synch errors! I never noticed any issues while driving. All I can think of is that it may be heat related.
I have to say, that the megalogviewer is very interesting, the more time spent playing with it, the more I understand.
Posted by: VaccaRabite Dec 8 2020, 08:24 AM
On loosing sync:
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.
I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.
Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.
Zach
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 8 2020, 09:13 AM
VaccaRabite, Well that is very interesting, never thought about that. Will keep that in mind, thanks.
Posted by: Frank S Dec 8 2020, 10:37 AM
On loosing sync:
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.
I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.
Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.
Zach
Good point, just checked his log again and Sync Los error 0, which is not a problem. However, I don't see this within my installation.
Frank
Posted by: Frank S Dec 8 2020, 10:40 AM
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.
You must fix the sync los problem!
I spent some time with the megalogviewer today (first time actually) and have identified the sync loss as Frank S pointed out (see pic). Now I have to fix this, but where to start? I tried to find the crank tooth log but discovered that only the high speed logger can log this information. Why could this not be included in the regular Data log? Can I run the High Speed logger together with the Datalog? How do I correlate both?
Anyway, I went for a short ride (10 min) to Lowes and there were no sync loses, engine started great, idled right away, and everything ran perfectly. I took another Datalog on the way back and logged 3 synch errors! I never noticed any issues while driving. All I can think of is that it may be heat related.
I have to say, that the megalogviewer is very interesting, the more time spent playing with it, the more I understand.
Review your log again. Your idle advance settings are killing you with retarded timing all over the place at low TPS% below 3000 RPM. Why would you retard your timing to
12° ATDC?
Frank
Posted by: Michelj13 Dec 8 2020, 11:32 AM
That is interesting. Travelling for work, will not get back to it until weekend.
Posted by: groot Dec 9 2020, 07:30 PM
So... I have to admit, I don't know much about any of this, but trying to learn... Thanks for posting your files so I can look at some real data.
Something to try.... In the "idle advance settings" try turning off "adaptive"... I know you're trying to get a good idle, but I think that table is driving the strangeness in idle ignition timing.
What I don't understand is why "SPK: Idle Correction Advance" log only shows zero.... so, maybe it's not the problem.... I don't know.
Posted by: Michelj13 Jul 2 2021, 11:46 PM
My latest video. I will answer any question, all you have to do is ask. Thanks
https://youtu.be/sXMhXcG6sBs
You need to watch until the end where I visit my friend Carlos where he is rebuilding his 914 engine. It's a camshaft not crankshaft as I said in the video.
Posted by: 913B Jul 7 2021, 04:18 PM
Congrats on your MS build. It looks to drive really nice. That 2270 does it run hot? Do you need any additional oil cooling for it? Hope to see it in person someday around Torrance.
If only I can get started on my Microsquirt build.
Best,
Ted
Posted by: Michelj13 Aug 24 2021, 10:02 AM
Sorry for delay in responding. Been fighting cancer, actually driving myself to radiation therapy in my 914. The highlight of my day!
I get a thumbs up or a nice car comment at least once a week. What else can you drive and get that kind of reaction?
Ted, to answer your question, I am not running an external oil cooler. I worried about that before the build, so I installed oil and head temp gauges to monitor. I think it is not necessary, but, a lot of it depends on your CR. I run about 7.5 to 1.
Posted by: 913B Mar 24 2022, 02:56 PM
I think that was you, your engine sounded pretty healthy at the intersection of Narborne and Lomita 2 days ago.
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