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Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 04:09 PM

like the title, Beauty being a PIA.

before everybody put in "their" 2 cents worth,
here's the break down,

starter is FINE! ( can jump start the motor with wires, to relay and stater)
has hot start relay put in, works FINE
Battery is FINE, brand new

I do get power to the starter thru the relay board, just FINE.

problem?
turn key,
a very loud click, at starter.
no rolling of the starter
that's it.

where else should I look?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 13 2012, 04:11 PM

Large cable from hot lead of starter to the + battery post. Clean "everything" and get new ends if need be.

That or the solenoid on the starter.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 13 2012, 04:12 PM

Posted by: Jeffs9146 Sep 13 2012, 04:13 PM

Bad Grounds or low battery!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 13 2012, 04:15 PM

Yup... what Mr. "I Blew Off RRC" said. Check that braided ground strap on the tranny to the trunk floor.

Posted by: wingnut86 Sep 13 2012, 04:16 PM

Yep.



Or...........Mayan calendar glitch 2 months early - Y2k like

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 05:03 PM

I disconnect, assuming, every single ground strap I cold find,brush clean to freshen up "finish", after cleaning oil off a few,

Ground strap to frame, film of oil was observed
I had high hope THIS was it!

Sadly, no.

I do like the idea of a new line to the starter,
but I can turn the starter just fine from underneath,
not recommended, the actual kick start, scared the bleep! out of me!

That's how I know it's fine.

I'm still shaking.

Posted by: SLITS Sep 13 2012, 05:12 PM

The contacts in the solenoid could have finally given up. Even a hot start relay won't cure that.

I don't know if whacking it with a hammer will help 'cause it's not a Chevy, but you can most certainly try!

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 05:28 PM

I and then some, on the solenoid,
anyhow, works fine, ( battery charger test, with starter out,solenoid checks out)
stater re-install, same click issues, jump wire to relay and starter, kicks in and runs

this is where I head to the bath room for tissue.

Some weird stuff here.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 13 2012, 05:30 PM

Big line from the battery... just say'n. That or the solenoid.

Posted by: Rotary'14 Sep 13 2012, 05:30 PM

Measure the voltage on the solenoid wire (yellow) should be really close to battery + voltage when the key is turned to crank. If it's not close to the battery voltage you have a voltage drop thru that wire,, you can trace the wire back and clean all the contacts and connectors,, or run a new wire,, or run a "hot start assist" relay(oops you have one already,, but you should still see how much juice is activating your relay).

-Robert

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 05:35 PM

what's worse than your 914 on jacks?

Both of your 914's is on jackstand!

Posted by: SLITS Sep 13 2012, 05:41 PM

Ok, you have solved your problem to a degree ... the solenoid is not getting enough power from the setup to "kick in".

Are the wires on the hot start relay connected correctly? Don't know which kind you have ... Bosch or Ford.

Makes me wonder if your "hot start" relay has taken a dump.

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 05:44 PM

I've been wondering about the yellow wire all the way thru.
able to test for power, with lite tester, with color lights for Ground, Green, and Red for power, throughout relay board.

this is where why I cry for help, and you all pitch in,
have to give what my 'cuz is sayin',
because, dam! I'm stump.

I'm going to try to check the voltage test, need to do some MacGiver trick

Pretty soon I'm heading to Manitou Spring to work on Pieper 914/6
I do not need two non running 914's

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 05:47 PM

I totally agree you Ron, I have one more relay, three prong, to test.

saga continue

Posted by: Jeffs9146 Sep 13 2012, 05:55 PM

The hot start relay should have a large wire coming from the battery (you can use the one from the original solinoid) and then a large wire going to the post that is jumped to when you do the screw driver trick. Then the yellow wire would power the hot start relay which is grounded. This will bypass the original starter solinoid just like the screw driver trick does!

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 06:33 PM

You know, Jeff, (who shouda came to RRC so I coulda met ya!)
I wondered if I was missing something when I began to copy from the Green Machine, and pretty much suspected like my 'Cuz says, a long cable.
another one wouldn't hurt how I miss it?
and I remembered Ron mention something about x amont of cable needed for his kits.

Problem with old school, what you see isn't always right.

Posted by: kg6dxn Sep 13 2012, 06:35 PM

You can only test for voltage drop under load. You also need a multi meter set to voltage. It will be a 2 man job. You under the car with the meter and someone turning the key at the same time.

The starter wire is 40 years old, 30 ears past its intended life span. Every splice, any corrosion will contribute to voltage drop.

Have you checked the seatbelt relay? That relay interrupts the wire. Most PO's do a hack splice to bypass it. Cut and re-splice it.

Posted by: mittelmotor Sep 13 2012, 06:41 PM

What year is your 914? Sometimes the seatbelt interlock relay can be problematic. Take out your passenger seat, locate the "silver box of death" relay, and then cut & splice the two thick-gauge yellow wires together. No more interlock, and less resistance for the starter circuit.

Worked like a charm for me...I was having a similar issue.

Posted by: Jeffs9146 Sep 13 2012, 06:52 PM

lol Sorry guys I was thinking about going but I just got back from Hawaii a few days before it started and I didn't want to push it and try to get there in one day!!

Next time!! The car is running very reliably now a days but I still cant get my wife to ride in it! She says "its to small and to loud"!

PS: I don't think it would click if it was the relay under the seat!

Posted by: kg6dxn Sep 13 2012, 07:00 PM

Time to buy a new wife...


If there is a shitty corroded splice, it may only click. All depends on what is dropping the voltage before it gets to the starter...

Posted by: majkos Sep 13 2012, 07:01 PM

and to confirm it, I actually click the the dam seatbelt!

Posted by: Jeffs9146 Sep 13 2012, 07:03 PM

Sure, anything is possible!



It just means I get more free time to my self

Posted by: turk22 Sep 13 2012, 08:18 PM

I had the same problem just a few weeks ago, after wasting money and time, this is how I fixed it:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=192269&st=20

The cable from the positive battery post to the starter, the end was so corroded, inside the wire, that I had to cut off almost an inch to get to good clean copper, and replace with a new battery connector. Started on first try...

Posted by: euro911 Sep 13 2012, 10:22 PM

Another item you can check/clean is the ground strap from the body to the rear of the transaxle (if not already checked)

Posted by: kg6dxn Sep 13 2012, 10:38 PM

I agree with the above too. I have seen guys spend way too much money replacing parts just to find the battery cables need replacing.

When was the last time you replaced them?

Posted by: Tom Sep 14 2012, 04:48 AM

If the starter works when using the screwdriver, the battery cables must be OK. Sounds like your hot start relay OR wiring from it has gone bad. Check the relay and all connections. The relay just replaces the screwdriver. Works with screwdriver, doesn't with relay = something in the relay circuit is bad.
Tom

Posted by: 7275914911 Sep 14 2012, 07:02 AM

+1 Tom

The Yellow wire comes to front side of relay board and then leaves relay board from rear side to Solenod. Wiring diagram is your friend for which pins. It sounds very similar to recent trouble of mine. Loose wire in the Seat Belt Loop.

If you have power to relay board(front) but not out back. I would be looking at relay board/relays.

If you have power to relay board(front) and out back. I would be looking at solenod.

It you dont have power to front of relay board. I would be thinking seat belt loop wiring.

Good Luck,,,,

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 14 2012, 08:22 AM

Not necessarily. He has a keyed hot coming off the harness (hence the click). Jumping the solenoid will utilize that. He needs the + lead from the battery. "Just" went through this with my build.

Guessing that when the battery was replaced the + lead may have been dis-lodged in the + connector etc.

Regardless, it's a 5 minute trouble shoot, and a worthy one at that, to just make sure all of those connections are solid and clean.

Read Turk22's post.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 14 2012, 08:30 AM

Get the fattest, cleanest length of wire you can and string it from your + post to your starter hot lead. Turn the key. There's your MacGiver trick.

We did that with some #10 but BE CAREFUL TO ONLY TEST THIS WAY. It will get hot and melt the sheathing quickly if you're cranking on it.

If it works, go out and grab some #4 and a bitch'n end at your local Home Depot. 7ft. will do the trick and you may just have 10-12" left over for safety sake.

Posted by: Rockaria Sep 14 2012, 11:49 AM

I am not sure if this has been suggested. BUT, I remember a while back I had the exact same problem when my 75 sat in the southwestern sun. The ignition switch had a crack and when it heated up it would no longer make full contact when I turned the key and all I would get is one loud click, then nothing. I could start it with the screwdriver and new pants trick. Once cooled down it worked fine.

Maybe your ignition switch is cracked and not making contact enough to get the full power it needs to activate the relay.

When i put in a new switch, problem was gone!

Just my 26 centavos

Posted by: Rand Sep 14 2012, 12:44 PM

There is insufficient current getting to your starter solenoid.

Run jumper cables to another vehicle to rule out battery and battery-post connections. If it still doesn't crank, there is current loss in your system. That means dirty connections along the path.

I know a lot of people love the extra relay by the starter. But take that band aid out of the loop and get it working without it FIRST! It's just another potential point of failure while you are troubleshooting. It might just surprise you and work withOUT that thing. If it still doesn't work without it, then something in the system is weak and you need to fix THAT weakness first. Otherwise you are leaving gremlins in the system.

If your system gets into a state that works with the extra relay but not without, then there is a weakness in the system! (I get the point that a relay offloads current from the switching system and the value of that.) But if it won't crank without the relay then the wiring is compromised. Fix it first, add the relay back later if it makes you feel better.

Posted by: euro911 Sep 14 2012, 02:57 PM

We refreshed the wires and cables (snipped-off any corroded ends where necessary) and crimped new connectors on when we installed the upgraded drive train in the 'BB'. I didn't reinstall the hot-start relay that was on the car when we first got it. It's working fine

Posted by: Tom Sep 18 2012, 12:05 PM

majkos,
Did you find the problem?
Tom

Posted by: majkos Sep 18 2012, 03:01 PM

Nope.

That's why I'm MajKOS ( Major Chaos)

I got a chance to grab another battery lead,
bumped the hot start relay, starter jumped,
so I thought, back to basic set-up,
dis-connect the hot start relay,
new cable/lead/thick battery wire to starter.

**click**
hook up battery charger, plenty of amp (just to make sure!)
**click**



How do I check to make sure there is enough power
to the starter via ignition switch ?
a two person job?

I say this, because coming home from a great event ( Red Rock Classic)
at night, I used my headlights, but cannot use "High" beam for more than a few seconds.



Another reason I'm trying to get to the bottom of these elec. issuses.

Posted by: Kirmizi Sep 18 2012, 03:43 PM

Can you rig a remote starter as a test?
Mike

Posted by: majkos Sep 18 2012, 04:05 PM

I've thought of that, but I HATE electrical stuff.

Thanks for the idea though, because I know I have a spring loaded toggle switch,
I'm gonna man up and get 'her dun!

Posted by: Kirmizi Sep 18 2012, 04:10 PM

That's an easy enough test to rig up and should at the least help you to isolate the problem.
Good luck and have a Sams, it'll work
Mike

Posted by: majkos Sep 18 2012, 08:31 PM

as usual, you're correct.
but on the beer?
since I'm paying full price, I changed, to

Colorado Native. everything grown in Colo.Hopps, Barley
water?

Posted by: majkos Sep 18 2012, 08:50 PM

well................."Beauty" fine



maybe DumbAss Owner, (That'll be me),
replace the simple yellow slide on clip, (On Yellow wire)
which slides on a prong of the starter
power source from ignition, it be all good.

But check THIS out!

I had TWO Gas line leaks,

One on end of cold start valve,
the other, line coming from pump to fuel injection, (plastic to rubber)
PEEING everywhere!

Hmmmm, she's sayin' sumthin'?

Posted by: Kirmizi Sep 18 2012, 09:05 PM

Fixing the wire = good
Leaking gas = bad
Better to find that problem in the garage though....

At least you're closer to driving now.
Mike

Posted by: euro911 Sep 19 2012, 01:10 AM

Dude, put some stainless steel fuel lines in there ... and the good high pressure rubber hoses everywhere else ...

Posted by: Tom Sep 19 2012, 03:04 AM

If your high beams are causing a problem, check the condition of the 4 red wires and their connectors at the battery positive post. Replace as necessary.
Tom

Posted by: SUNAB914 Sep 19 2012, 05:45 AM

As mentioned before, Check the ground wire for the seat belt relay under the passenger seat. Brown wire grounds to body spade, clean it. Just do it! if corroded car will not start or turnover. With everything else you have done, I would think about replacing the ignition switch, if you have never done it also.
Good luck

Posted by: majkos Sep 19 2012, 09:28 AM

Tom, thanks for the tip about the high beam,
I always wondered what they were for, the red wires.
anyhow, while in quest to check and clean and possibly remove anything,
to make sure everything good, I re locate the four red wires that was bolted to a little wire,coming off the battery clamp, (inside of clamp, with big wire)
took a bit a time, but got then to go over the bolt that hold the clamp down,
that's a good connection!

so I double check Tom tip, fire up Beauty

and test all the lights, including highbeam ,with flashers on,
and driving lights

Everything works great!

I'm up for SS lines and have some decent rubber hose on her now,

but that's where the leak came from, last 1/2 inch of hose, very hard ,cracked

A little history about Beauty,
she's fairly restored, built for Track,
she's one of four, Stock category, (in Colorado)
for SCCA racing.

so on that note, I assumed everything is good and safe,
but rubber get old,
sometime the motor gets hot after a LONG trip

Keeps the tips coming, I learned a thing or two.
on the seat belt wires. It's removed. (weight)LOL

Posted by: majkos Sep 19 2012, 09:51 AM

how many miles left in the treads?

they work well in the corners still !