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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ KitCarlson EMS Install

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 08:02 PM

I'm in the process of installing the Beta KitCarlson EMS. Today it ran. I've been working on modifying the wiring harness to match the stock layout. I had one wire in the wrong place today which made it keep running even when the key was off. Fixed that and now it idles great.

Things I've done so far:
- Modify the wiring harness.
- Buy plug wires that will work with the new coil.
- Made an adapter plate to mount the coil in the stock location.

Things I still have to do:
- Send the harness to Jeff B. for replication.
- Fine tune the engine.
- Make a mounting plate for the brain to put it in the stock location.

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 08:16 PM

Wiring harness. Colorful for now.

Attached image(s)

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 08:18 PM

You can see the coil in the last picture, here's the plate I made that will mount it securely in the stock location.

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry Oct 27 2004, 08:55 PM

Where are you mounting the brain?

If you mount the coil and brain too close together you wil get EMP problems...my SDS install manual stressed that you should keep the coil pack at least 3 feet away from the CPU.

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 08:58 PM

Stock stock stock. The box it's in will be grounded to the chassis. It's a stock, stealth replacement. If it causes drivability problem then I'll look for a solution, but I'm not going to start looking for problems to fix.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 27 2004, 09:13 PM

Where is "Kit" on this "kit" ? Are you the only person with a 914 related kit ? I found a dyno in Mountain view that is identical to Jakes and the guy builds alcohol burning T4 quarter midget race engines... he said we could use the dyno for injection tuning.

B

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 09:17 PM

I'm pretty sure I have the only 914 kit. I'm sending the harness to Jeff. Dave's not very talkative, so I'm not really sure.

Let me know when and what I need to do and I'll rip it out and bring the engine down. I'm free anytime.

Posted by: Britain Smith Oct 27 2004, 09:28 PM

Hmmmm....Dyno. I really need to get everything together for my engine.

-Britain

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 27 2004, 10:08 PM

Looks great Mark...You and Mueller are gonna put me outta bizness...

Any chance I can see this harness installed in the engien bay before you rip it out? How about the breakfast on Saturday?

Speaking of which...I invited the owner of that 25-Large yellow 73 to the breakfast....he said he might join us...

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 27 2004, 10:10 PM

Jeff,

Can you call me tomorrow at HPH ?? Or can I call your cell phone ?? I need to ask you a few questions.

B

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 27 2004, 10:12 PM

Sure I'll call you in the morning...

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 10:12 PM

Until I get the TPS adapter, I can't drive it. But I'll make it happen. You'll get to see it.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 27 2004, 10:20 PM

Cool let me know before you pull it...

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 27 2004, 10:21 PM

Thanks Jeff,

Mark,

I recall seeing the adapter in the box you gathered everything in.

I'll look around tomorrow for it however.

B

Posted by: McMark Oct 27 2004, 10:24 PM

I looked everywhere and my shop is cleaner than yours. Dave said he'd send me a new one. I'll look some more, and I'd appreciate any looking you can do.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 27 2004, 10:26 PM

I'm one of 3 people total who probably knows what it looks like.

B

Posted by: Mueller Oct 27 2004, 10:38 PM

are you talking about the adapter on "inside" of the TPS to adapt it to the d-shaft?

Mark, for even more "stealth" you should be able to rip the guts out of the stock TPS (I used a 2.0 unit) and fit the new TPS inside it....

Posted by: McMark Oct 28 2004, 02:16 AM

Damn Mike that's a good idea.

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 28 2004, 06:02 AM

Brad, who is this guy??

I have been trying to get up with some of those teams for months but all the ones I have found were running Auto craft engines these days...

I was going to try to convert them to TIV with my heads..

Tell that dude that I have a TIV head that flows 280 CFM on the intake and 230 on the exhaust!

Posted by: Hi_Fi_Guy Oct 28 2004, 09:57 AM

I just want to thank all the club members working hard to make the Kit Carlson F.I. system a reality.

I think the improved drivability, stealth look (for stock engines), and ability to pass smog test will benefit the entire 914 community for years to come. I also believe that a relieble "bolt-on" F.I. will bring people to the 914 community that are afraid of the old stock F.I., don't like carbs, or want BIG Type IVs without carbs.

Thanks again and keep up the great work!

Posted by: McMark Oct 29 2004, 02:53 AM

Got the TPS adapter today. So test drive on Saturday. Yay!

Posted by: McMark Oct 30 2004, 06:55 PM

Got the Palm hookup working. Now I can see what's going on.
Jeff, feel like picking up the harness so you can see it on the car?
Now to get things dialed in. Mueller, let me know about the LM-1.
Brad, who do I need to call about the Dyno?

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 31 2004, 08:59 AM

So Mark, I work in San Francisco and live in San Jose...how can we cooordinate? My weekdays are long and weekends are best for me.

Can you drive to the city or the peninsula and I can take installed photos?

What is your time schedule?

Email me off list...

Posted by: KitCarlson Nov 21 2004, 07:52 PM

Hey,

Kit is still alive!!!

I started working a part-time R&D job that thas turned into more hours and brain drain than I expected. I am making my way back, and have been working on the EMS.

The list of details for the release is becomming shorter.

Sorry to be absent for so long.

Posted by: redshift Nov 21 2004, 08:18 PM

Hey, make this thing CHEAP and NOW and throw in some BIG THROTTLE BODIES for my trip to California.

M

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Dec 3 2004, 10:34 PM

I'm still waiting for pricing. I'm frickin' SICK AND TIRED of my 40mm Dells -- I hate carbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just gimme an affordable, single throttle body FI system and I'll be happy.

Posted by: McMark Dec 23 2004, 01:56 PM

UPDATE ON AN OLD THREAD

I'm still having a fluctuating idle problem with my KitCarlson install.

Here's what I've found out after some testing...

My fuel injectors are spraying great. I cleaned them in an ultrasonic bath and checked their spray pattern. The injectors themselves are working great.

Fuel pressure is solid at 28 psi.

I checked my timing again and I'm fairly confident that it's timed correctly.

I hooked up a vacuum gauge and the needle did move around a bit in conjunction with RPM. But it wasn't the erratic oscillations I would expect from compressed gasses leaking past valves.

With the LM-1 hooked up, I've run things lean and rich and still have a fluctuating RPMs. I did hook up an inductive trigger timing light and noticed that occasionally there is no spark. It happens on every cylinder and there is no pattern to it that I noticed. I theorized that perhaps the mixture was so rich that it was keeping the spark plugs from firing, but I've run it pretty lean, so I've abandoned that idea.

Any thoughts?

Posted by: Korijo Dec 23 2004, 02:53 PM

grounding issues ? IPB Image

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 23 2004, 03:14 PM

Give it more initial timing... Also how much MAP are you reading at idle?? I ended up drilling a hole in my buterfly, adding some initial timing and settin it up at 14:1 for a solid 800 RPM idle..

Posted by: McMark Dec 23 2004, 04:52 PM

Well it fluctuates between 350 and 550 as the RPM changes. It's set at 10 degrees right now. Maybe I should set it at 12 degrees. IPB Image

Posted by: matt_o_70 Dec 23 2004, 05:02 PM

Snow on the ground 914 is in the garage..
now's the time I want to convert the 914 to FI before the spring..
Can I expect this to be available in the next few weeks.. or is this months away?

I'd be interested in beta tesing..

Posted by: KitCarlson Dec 23 2004, 05:42 PM

Mark,

Just read your post. You should set the RPM higher! You should have idle set to ~900 RPM. Use the air bypass screw on the TB.

Idle below ~700 RPM keeps the timing locked at static timing (no electronic advance or dwell control) it is designed for starting only. You are also operating to the left of the VE table data that starts at I guess 900, depending in the idle speed setting.

My experience on 3 other 2.0L applications suggest the stock TB is fine without modification with standard or a 73 cam.

Keep your VE table values smooth in the upper left quadrant, this is where MAP is low and RPM is low.

Set correctly the idle should be both smooth and strong, better than a stock D-Jet.

Dave

Posted by: McMark Dec 24 2004, 04:35 AM

The idle fluctuates between 1000 and 1400 rpm. It's the MAP reading I was referencing as going between 350 and 550.

Posted by: KitCarlson Dec 24 2004, 08:12 AM

Oops,

The fuel pulse should be near 28 that is 2.8mS at idle. Try increasing the FB (values 4-10 are typical), then decrease the FS fuel scalar and or VE values in the idle area. You will want to maintain the fuel pulse something in the 25 to 32 range that gives the best idle. What this does is adds a constant fuel percentage that does not vary with MAP. The fuel base is similar to the knob on the D-jet. A fuel base of 10 will give 1mS of fuel that does not vary with MAP. ALso decease the increase in fuel as MAP increases in the VE table in the idle column.

I have to travel and will be out of pocket.

Dave

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 24 2004, 09:36 AM

Cool stuff. I don't understand a word of it. But I like it. I think... IPB Image

Posted by: tommy914 Jan 12 2005, 03:57 PM

IPB Image

Is there an ETA on this being ready for the masses?

Posted by: Root_Werks Jan 12 2005, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Dec 24 2004, 07:36 AM)
Cool stuff. I don't understand a word of it. But I like it. I think... IPB Image

Umm, I'm with Rick on this one. Cool but huh?

Posted by: McMark Jan 12 2005, 06:14 PM

Makes more sense when you're sitting in front of it. Also once this is available you'll be able to share setting which will get things really close without much work. Currently the setup is on its way back to Dave so he can check out the harness and see if I did something wrong. IPB Image

Hopefully he finds something wrong. At least then the mystery will be solved.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Jan 13 2005, 05:18 PM

My Squareback really needs FI...getting impatient on pricing and availability IPB Image

Posted by: McMark Jan 13 2005, 06:41 PM

Hopefully in the next few months all the details will come out.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 13 2005, 06:50 PM

Where are you taking the MAP off the plenum?

I was going off one of the side ports and it ran like total crap...Map all over the place...then I moved it to the top of the plenum and the difference was like night and day.

You could also try sticking a .035 mig welder tip inside the MAP hose...it does work sometimes.

Also I know you dismissed it, but I was concered about you mounting the coil pack so close to the ECU.
EMP can do some real wierd shit.

Posted by: redshift Jan 13 2005, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Oct 27 2004, 11:13 PM)
Where is "Kit" on this "kit" ? Are you the only person with a 914 related kit ? I found a dyno in Mountain view that is identical to Jakes and the guy builds alcohol burning T4 quarter midget race engines... he said we could use the dyno for injection tuning.

B

1/4 midget?!

GODDANG! That's tiny!

hah

M

Posted by: McMark Jan 13 2005, 11:21 PM

I'm taking the MAP off the stock 2.0 location. Could have been EMP. IPB Image Wish I'd thought of that before I sent it back to Dave. Oh well. Hopefully he'll find something in the next few days.

Posted by: McMark Mar 10 2005, 10:33 PM

Got my unit back from Dave.

He found a couple small issues.

I spend some good time with the car these last few days and it's officially drivable. I have to work out some low RPM issues (rich) and some high RPM sputtering (Rev limiter too low?). But I cruized it around town today without much trouble. Just rev it high before taking off.

Just wanted to keep things updated.

Posted by: Hi_Fi_Guy Mar 10 2005, 10:56 PM

Thanks for the progress report. I know a lot of us are waiting to see who will get what product to the market and how it will work at what price. Best of luck and let know how it turns out.

Posted by: ottox914 Mar 11 2005, 01:18 PM

How have you been tuning the car, and how has it worked so far... by ear, by wideband O2, by EGT? C'mon, dish a little more- inquiring minds want to know!

thanks-

David

Posted by: Mueller Mar 11 2005, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (ottox914 @ Mar 11 2005, 12:18 PM)
How have you been tuning the car, and how has it worked so far... by ear, by wideband O2, by EGT? C'mon, dish a little more- inquiring minds want to know!

thanks-

David

he should be using the LM-1 wideband O2 reader which he has in his possesion

Posted by: McMark Mar 11 2005, 07:08 PM

I'm pretty sure my valves are floating at 4500 RPMs!!

I have 30 year old springs and ChoMoly steel pushrods. Not a good combo. The heads were rebuilt (not by me) before I built the engine. I have replacements on order as well as new AL pushrods. So the engine will be coming out again.

I haven't put the O2 sensor on it yet, but I definitely will. The unit came tuned for a stock 2.0 when I got it back from Dave. So I haven't changed any settings yet.

Posted by: ChrisReale Mar 11 2005, 08:10 PM

Mark, can you help me with the o2 sensor? I need to see what my AF ratio is.....

Posted by: McMark Mar 11 2005, 08:16 PM

Actually it's owned by a collective of the creme-de-la-creme of 914 owners. ( ) I'll have to ask the other part owners what they think.

Posted by: McMark Mar 13 2005, 06:56 PM

Long Version:So I was driving my car today. Still had the same low RPM, high RPM issues. I picked up a piece of 2" coolant hose from the FLAPS with which to attach my O2 sensor rig to the tailpipe. Worked like a charm and so I was able to see my fuel ratio while driving for the first time. I noticed that my car was running rich at low RPM (I figured this) and lean at high RPM. Around 3700 RPM things were good at 14.4:1. So with this new information I stopped by the side of the road and tinkered with some of the settings in the fuel map. When I pulled away it was like driving a normal car! Holy crap it was easy. There's still some fine tuning to be done as well as replacing my valve springs and pushrods (next week). Looks like I might have this thing 100% dialed in quicker than I thought.

I'll probably rope Trekkor into helping me tune. He can drive and I'll read the meters and change the settings. Hot damn, I'm excited.

Short Version: Tuning the EMS with a wideband O2 sensor IS REALLY EASY.

Posted by: TimT Mar 13 2005, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 13 2005, 07:56 PM)

Short Version: Tuning the EMS with a wideband O2 sensor IS REALLY EASY.

and tuning becomes intuitive, it becomes easy to tune by butt-o-meter and checking that against your wide band.. I was driving a car on the dyno the other day, and adjusting the ECU, by sound and feel, then fine tuning by the torque readings, O2 reading and EGT readings..

gotta love EFI

Posted by: McMark Mar 13 2005, 11:50 PM

My O2 sensor setup installed on the car.

Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor Mar 14 2005, 12:20 AM

I don't think all those cans near the hot exhaust is such a good idea.

Let's drive it.

KT

Posted by: McMark Mar 24 2005, 01:37 AM

Did some tuning tonight. (Thanks Trekkor! )

Made some really big strides. I figured out that the timing was dropping from 26 degrees to 23 degrees at 4500 RPMs and that was causing all the problems. So it wasn't valve float. (duh) But at least now I have lighter pushrods and new springs, so I can rev higher!

There are still some weird issues going on with the mixture. Really makes me wish I could afford some dyno time. That'd really tune this thing right in. I'm pretty happy with how it's running right now. There's some throttle related issues I have to figure out. But it'll take me a little bit to wrap my head around it.

Very productive night. Very cold too.

Posted by: ottox914 Mar 24 2005, 07:31 AM

Any issues with the hot exhaust melting the rubber on your exhaust rig? Looks like a handy way to move the wideband sensor between cars, and cheeper than the $75 or so they want for the MFG adaptor.

Posted by: McMark Mar 24 2005, 04:41 PM

Worked fine so far. Some silicone hose might work better, because this stuff is going to have a limited heat cycle life. I can already tell. But I'm happy with it. Works good. I've swapped it to a few different cars.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 24 2005, 06:46 PM

QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 13 2005, 10:50 PM)
My O2 sensor setup installed on the car.

actually, that is my O2 sensor, I subtracted the price of the sensor from yours and James' share of the LM-1

we are "supposed" to have own sensor each

no big deal, I'm sure it's cleaner now than when I gave it to you, I know my car was running way rich at one time....

Posted by: McMark Mar 24 2005, 08:02 PM

Ahhh, I was wondering about that. Well maybe I'll just buy my own sensor. Works like a champ though. Good stuff.

I drove that car again today. Whoopee! Gettin' close!

Posted by: william harris Mar 24 2005, 08:10 PM

I am definitely cheering you on! I wanted to buy the Kit Carlson "kit" and hope there is such a thing soon.

Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 25 2005, 08:21 AM

so the o2 sensor you guys are using doesn't care if it's placed behind the muffler? i thought they should be forward of the muffler but in a position that they read all 4 cyl?

k

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 25 2005, 09:25 AM

Dave is doing everyone a HUGE favor in getting the kit 100% before selling the....

These days that just doesn't happen.......

When it does wait as long as you need to because you have finally found a vendor thats worth a damn....

Dave has ben working on the system since 1996 and I'm SURE that he wants it on the market worse than all of us together, after all he built it.

I fully understand why he is taking his time and even though I have 6 engines here waiting for it with customers that are starting to whine I'll continue to patiently wait...

Posted by: Mueller Mar 25 2005, 11:48 AM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Mar 25 2005, 07:21 AM)
so the o2 sensor you guys are using doesn't care if it's placed behind the muffler? i thought they should be forward of the muffler but in a position that they read all 4 cyl?

k

how can the muffler negatively affect the reading?

the muffler doesn't add or remove anything from the mixture, it's just there for noise control