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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ VIN swap discussion
Posted by: scotty b Oct 4 2012, 11:44 AM
FIRST PLEASE READ THIS POST IN IT'SENTIRETY BEFORE RESPONDING !!
This thread is NOT meant to be a discussion of the legality of a VIN swap. We all know it is illegal to simply swap the numbers from one car to another.
HOWEVER this comes up for discussion often as is the case in this thread
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=195530
So the HYPOTHETICAL scenario FOR DISCUSSON ONLY is this. I have 2 cars. Both legally obtained, both with clean titles and history. One is a rusted out pile of a 6, the other is a perfect example of a 1.7 4.
Now to " restore " the 6 would take many thousands of dollars, most of the metal on the car would be replaced with reproduction pieces, interior recoverd etc. So in the end very little of this car would be REAL factory built Porsche, and would in fact be a resconstruction
on the other hand I could professionaly change the vin from the six to the pristine 4 tub, have an all original factory correct chassis, then only have to swap over the few other 6 only pieces, and duplicate things like the undercoating etc tht would have to be done on wither tub. This ends up with a proper factory built 6, with original metal
The question. How do the purists among us see this. Would you rather see the original chassis completely cut apart and have brand new aftermarket panels put in, or would you rather see the vin swapped and have a TRUELY original untouched ( save for the VIN area ) Porsche body
Posted by: Woody Oct 4 2012, 11:50 AM
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 4 2012, 11:55 AM
I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional. 
Do what you think is best. 
Posted by: scotty b Oct 4 2012, 11:57 AM
I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional.
Do what you think is best. DAMNIT Elliot, I don't own either, this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 11:58 AM
Fixed the broken poll for 'ya ...
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 4 2012, 12:02 PM
I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional.
Do what you think is best. DAMNIT Elliot, I don't own either, this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion
You're right of course. RTFQ!! So if you HYPOTHETICALLY owned both cars and you are HYPOTHETICALLY a professional. Then I think you should HYPOTHETICALLY do what you think is best.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 12:03 PM
No matter how you slice it (pun intended):
- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.
- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.
- End of discussion.
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: scotty b Oct 4 2012, 12:03 PM
I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional.
Do what you think is best. DAMNIT Elliot, I don't own either, this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion
You're right of course. RTFQ!! So if you HYPOTHETICALLY owned both cars and you are HYPOTHETICALLY a professional. Then I think you should HYPOTHETICALLY do what you think is best.
I give up Thanks Andy
Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 4 2012, 12:05 PM
Good question. We transfer chassis numbers when we add repair panels. Is this wrong? Should we leave them out?
Posted by: bandjoey Oct 4 2012, 12:42 PM
I can't vote because it doesn't matter to me. Fix the old or move parts is all the same in the end. A nice -6
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 12:48 PM
Those two questions are not even related. The replacement trunk floor panel from RD does not have a chassis number stamped. It's a simple replacement panel.
You're *not* replacing one chassis number with another.
Cutting out a VIN from the front fender and welding in another VIN in it's place is what this discussion is about.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 12:49 PM
I can't vote because it doesn't matter to me. Fix the old or move parts is all the same in the end. A nice -6
Added a 3rd option for you ...
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 4 2012, 12:58 PM
I voted option 2, even though it doesn't properly represent what I think is best.
I would retain as much of the original chassis as possible without getting into ridiculous swiss cheese type repairs.
In fact, I just had a similar project. In this case it was a -6 race car with a nice low chassis number.
The owner thought I could replace the chassis with a '74 -4 he had, and swap the six mount, the vin, and some of the structural reinforcing elements that were installed when it was turned into a race car.
However, besides the numerous differences between the '74 and '70 chassis', this car has a notable history and therefore - a significant value. People who know about historic Porsche racing in the USA are going to recognize the car. Once I saw it up close, I told the owner it would be a serious mistake to go with his idea. Someone would be sure to notice, someday.
Using a donor chassis, we clipped the front end through the steering rack hump - going around the vin tag on the wheel well; we replaced part of the floor; we replaced the firewall above the seam; and we used repair panels to fix the passenger side outer long and sill. There were numerous smaller repairs and hole filling as well.
We removed the original roll cage and installed a new one.
We removed the ugly/heavy camber boxes originally installed by Aase Brothers and installed my camber boxes. We replaced some ridiculous heavy rear console reinforcements with my heim rod braces.
We reinstalled the fuel cell mount and tube structure around the cell; we retained the rear trunk tubular reinforcements; we retained the GT stiffening panels, and some sheet metal doublers on the inner consoles.
No one can ever say the car is a fraud, since as much as possible of the original was kept intact, and at least some of the battle scars remain for those in the know to reminisce over.
Posted by: '73-914kid Oct 4 2012, 01:11 PM
This certainly brings up the situation that you see guys with camaro's go through. You can build a complete Camaro out of replacement panels from Year 1, or whatever other company you choose. Then all you do is undril the vin, or cut it out, weld it back on the new chassis, et voila, its "my old car" with brand new panels, brand new everything. The only thing old about it is the VIN.
This situation is not too dissimilar from taking a wrecked chassis, and swapping cut front end from a parts car at the fuel tank bulkhead, or a new trunk pan, or other assorted areas. You can keep going to save a wrecked car with replacement parts off a rusted out car until the only thing original to that chassis is the windshield frame with the Vin rivetted on, and the Karmann tags that have been drilled out and re-rivetted back on.
As far as I'm concerned, the VIN is what identifies a vehicle, therefore if you find a '70-6 that's a rust bucket, and swap it to a '70-4 tub and make all the modifications that make it a -6, then swap the vin numbers in an exacting manner, I think you could probably call it an original 6.
My .02 cents. This is something we discussed at length in my personal identity class for my GE's. the group consensus was that the VIN is the identification number to that vehicle. No matter what it goes on, it becomes that vehicle that is associated with those numbers.
flame on 
Posted by: carr914 Oct 4 2012, 01:16 PM
No matter how you slice it (pun intended):
- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.
- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.
- End of discussion.
Posted by: timothy_nd28 Oct 4 2012, 01:16 PM
Posted by: balljoint Oct 4 2012, 01:22 PM
“This, milord, is my family’s axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine-hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y’know. ”
Posted by: balljoint Oct 4 2012, 01:24 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
Posted by: Jgilliam914 Oct 4 2012, 01:36 PM
I do understand the " poll question "
I have believed that the chassis is the soul of the car. Yes you can replace virtually every rusted out panel. You can repair and replace many parts of the chassis. and All is good. But if you pull the VIN off one vehicle and attach it to another and then try to pass it to another person being " original " thats fraud.
I once knew a guy that orinally owned a 71 Hemi Cuda that he hit a flatbed truck 6 months after he purchased it with less than 5000 miles. Being totaled and he bought a Corvette with the insurance payout. When the Hemi's started to go crazy several years ago he gets a call from a dude trying to find the history of the previous owners. The car was rebuilt from the VIN out. It supposedly had the correct numbers matching motor almost 30 years after. He has seen photos of it and it looked showroom new and accurate. It has been passed on to other owners since.
Porsche Speedsters are more prone to rust than 914's but as long as you have a original VIN one restored rebuilt or remanufactured is just as original survivor in like condition.
Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 4 2012, 01:37 PM
Those two questions are not even related. The replacement trunk floor panel from RD does not have a chassis number stamped. It's a simple replacement panel.
You're *not* replacing one chassis number with another.
Cutting out a VIN from the front fender and welding in another VIN in it's place is what this discussion is about.
Ok, let me try it this way. I have a car with a rusted rear boot floor. I get a part from a donor car and trim it and weld it into my car. Do I leave the chassis number from the donor car or cut out my chassis number from the rusted panel and transfer it to the donor panel?
How large of a donor panel would be acceptable to replace the rust damage before we call it a vin and chassis swap?
How about in the case of crash damage. Let's say you take a shunt to the right front wing. It causes enough damage you have no choice but to replace the inner wing with a used one. Should you leave the vin # on the used panel or transfer your original vin onto the used part?
Again how much of the used donor is acceptable before you call it a vin swap?
Posted by: Jgilliam914 Oct 4 2012, 01:39 PM
I do understand the " poll question "
I have believed that the chassis is the soul of the car. Yes you can replace virtually every rusted out panel. You can repair and replace many parts of the chassis. and All is good. But if you pull the VIN off one vehicle and attach it to another and then try to pass it to another person being " original " thats fraud.
I once knew a guy that orinally owned a 71 Hemi Cuda that he hit a flatbed truck 6 months after he purchased it with less than 5000 miles. Being totaled and he bought a Corvette with the insurance payout. When the Hemi's started to go crazy several years ago he gets a call from a dude trying to find the history of the previous owners. The car was rebuilt from the VIN out. It supposedly had the correct numbers matching motor almost 30 years after. He has seen photos of it and it looked showroom new and accurate. It has been passed on to other owners since.
Porsche Speedsters are more prone to rust than 914's but as long as you have a original VIN one restored rebuilt or remanufactured is just as original survivor in like condition.
oops my brain was working faster than my fingers I meant to say
Porsche Speedsters are more prone to rust than 914's but as long as you have a original VIN one restored rebuilt or remanufactured is worth the same just as original survivor in like condition
Posted by: shoguneagle Oct 4 2012, 01:52 PM
Restore the original Sixer for all the reasoning given prior!!!
Posted by: patrick3000 Oct 4 2012, 02:19 PM
No matter how you slice it (pun intended):
- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.
- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.
- End of discussion.
X2
Posted by: Scott S Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM
I just witnessed this scenario happen with a 100S Healey.
The lawsuits now going on are not pretty. The dealer who last sold the car had to refund the buyer (a close buddy of mine) both the cost of the car, the costs he had incurred so far in the restoration (that is where the misrepresentation was discovered) as well as additional funds on top of that. The dealer now has a car that is in boxes and is suing the person that he got the car from. There have been multiple owners of the car since it was first restored close to 20 years ago. The person who did the initial "resotraion" is a a very well known restorer. He is on the hook - deep - not to mention that his reputation is destroyed.
The situation is so similar. The car being misrespresented had some very slight frame differences fromt the original. They were altered to appear correct (the equivalent of simply removing the -4 motor mounts on a 914). The serial numbers were moved from the wrecked car and "professionally" moved to the appropriate places on the new chasis and body panels.
So far the payout that I am aware of is in the very high 6 figures - nearly 7. Legal or not, I personally would not want that coming back on me 20 years later like what is happening to this guy. Even if it was done in good faith, just the cost to defend yourself would be ugly.
Posted by: Gustl Oct 4 2012, 02:39 PM
I'd say - no matter what you do, do it well documented and honestly present the documentation when it comes to a sale
the potential buyer should know what he might get
Posted by: Jgilliam914 Oct 4 2012, 03:04 PM
I'd say - no matter what you do, do it well documented and honestly present the documentation when it comes to a sale
the potential buyer should know what he might get
Posted by: mepstein Oct 4 2012, 03:19 PM
Most of the value of a six is in it's vin. Sheetmetal is basically the same as a 4. So a 6 vin into a 4 is basically a massive restoration. A big deal is made btweeen the difference of a couple different numbers But...Legal, ethics, practicality and definition of a restoration don't match up so there will always be this issue.
On the other hand, a nice six basically sells for the same price as a nice minivan or suv. We're really not talking high dollar cars here.
Posted by: toolguy Oct 4 2012, 03:24 PM
You should have added another voting possibility
"It's dishonest and fraudulent, no matter what the reason or intention"
Posted by: zymurgist Oct 4 2012, 03:24 PM
The problem with swapping the VIN is one of provenance. Yes, you get a factory assembled tub, and that's a Good Thing. I bet a talented body man could make a /4 tub look just like a /6 tub to almost any observer. But if you do it, you're not getting a car that may have had a cool racing history... you're getting a car that a little old lady used to drive to the beach on weekends. (Not that there's anything wrong with that if all you want is a solid driver.) The really high priced cars have that provenance, and I can see why paying that kind of money for a car that was "there" back in the day versus a car that was "there" only in its number stamps makes sense for the serious collector.
Posted by: scotty b Oct 4 2012, 03:39 PM
You should have added another voting possibility
"It's dishonest and fraudulent, no matter what the reason or intention"
Obviously you did not read the initial post as you were asked to do
Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 4 2012, 03:44 PM
I believe that taking the VIN off a rusted out six and transplanting it onto a 4 cylinder car is morally wrong and legally fraud.
Now if my car gets hit when it is finished (God forbid) and the rear trunk floor needs to be replaced, I would source a new trunk floor and have my chassis number cut out of the old and installed into the new- and have the entire process photo documented. I do not believe there is anything wrong with that. I am not deceiving anyone or trying to make my car into something it was not.
However removing a six VIN from a wrecked, rusted, destroyed tub and welding it into a 4 chassis and calling it a six is just wrong. I am not saying it hasn't happened in the past and unfortunately will likely happen in the future. But if I bought a car which had experienced a VIN swap and was not made aware of that, and I found out, I would be calling the CHP and reporting it and going after the seller for a 100% refund in addition to any funds I had expended on the chassis.
The value in these cars is that they are few and far between. And every year they unfortunately become fewer. That is why they command a premium over the non-six cars. I could easily have purchased a very clean 4 cylinder car and just done a six conversion but I wanted a car that was on the rare side and inherently had some value.
I guess theoretically one could approach the CHP and/or DMV and explain they own a rusted out six and a pristine 4 and want to swap the VINS and see if they can get it sanctioned by the CHP and DMV - that would clear the legality issue. However you still have the moral issue to deal with.
I hope that in this "club" most people are of the same mind. I like to think that as small of a group as we are that we all want to do the right thing and be honest with one another.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 04:23 PM
Of course you would. In your case, you're replacing one panel that is rusted on the otherwise original chassis.
That panel happens to have a chassis number from another vehicle.
If you add your own, correct chassis number that matches the rest of the car back into a replacement panel you got from a donor, you never *switched* chassis numbers!
The chassis number that belongs to the chassis goes back into the same chassis.
Again, my point stands. Your case is not related to the question at hand. You didn't *swap* anything. The correct number went right back into the correct chassis.
The question of this poll is about a number going into a different chassis and then claiming it to be "the other" car ...
Posted by: MDG Oct 4 2012, 06:02 PM
. . . this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion
Well, speaking Hypnautically, I think if the keel doesn't float the boat's a goat.
Posted by: turk22 Oct 4 2012, 06:07 PM
I understand the subtleties of the discussion...
I can't explain or justify why, but I think its better to rebuild the rusted ol' tub with new panels, and maintain as much of the factory metal as possible....
Even understanding that it may end up a complete replacement panel car, it feels more authentic...
I also agree that if the process is documented like some of the rustarations that I've seen here, and presented with the sale, it seems much more 'above board'.
Turk
Posted by: bulitt Oct 4 2012, 06:16 PM
At what point does the car cease to be original? Say all that is left is the VIN plate laying on the barn floor surrounded by rust under a tarp.
Replacement panels, suspension, engine etc all acquired and attached to the Vin plate. Is it truly the original car anymore?
If you replace say 51% of the vehicle is it now over the "legal limit"?
Beats me?
Posted by: timothy_nd28 Oct 4 2012, 06:24 PM
Or even take it a step further, what if restoration designs started to assemble these replacement panels in house and sold new tubs.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 06:31 PM
It's called "body in white" and was at one time available from Porsche.
If i recall correctly, the DMV would assign a new VIN to those ...
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 4 2012, 06:31 PM
I can't speak to the laws in other states but here in the Peoples Republic if you're going to mess with a VIN, you have to get the Highway Patrol involved to OK it. They will take a good look and then "blue tag" it if you're lucky. Otherwise its a Felony. Far from hypothetical.
I hope we all answered your question for ya Scotty. 
Posted by: Michael N Oct 4 2012, 06:51 PM
I say if the vin and parts get moved to a /4 tub it becomes a six conversion with more authenic parts and NOT an original six. I voted repair the original car.
Posted by: edwin Oct 4 2012, 07:24 PM
Had a discussion like this with a friend at a car show here not long ago.
A guy turned up in a 904 and turns out it's an original chassis which was crashed bad early in it's life and this guy bought the chassis and had a replacement body fitted along with a 915 trans and 3.0 6cyl.
It annoyed me as to the amount of people that were giving it shit because it wasnt original.
Here in Australia things get interesting whith engine swaps etc and even harder when registering a kit type car.
I still figure this would be real 904.
how's it any different to guys saying that they have a real gt with parts used from a bunch of different cars etc?
I would be all for a car with vin swap that was really neat rather than a car that was assembled around a tag without the original manufacturing fixtures. For me it comes down to the end result
Posted by: kg6dxn Oct 4 2012, 07:47 PM
There was an article recently in Panorama about a guy that found a chassis, rear deck and transaxle for an early 550. He had a coach builder in California hand hammer and all aluminum body. It looks perfect! Is it still a 550? If he sent it to Germany and had Porsche hammer out a body would it be a real 550? Is it a fake 550?
In San Francisco, the building code allows you to leave a single wall standing on your property and call it a remodel. You can build an entire new house around the single wall and it is a remodel. Take down the wall and it's new construction...
So at what point in a restoration does it turn from remodel to VIN swap? What if 99% of the car needs metal work? If you keep the front fender and A pillar and replace everything else is it a VIN swap? If you have an original 6 and replace every panel, one at a time is that a VIN swap?
I think there is a lot of grey area here... Not sure what I would do. Not sure I would tell anyone what I would do...
Posted by: jersey914 Oct 4 2012, 07:51 PM
This one seems pretty simple to me. You have a perfect 1.7 4, and it you should stay that way. The six needs a giant douche and and the same ol' pile of work we are all so use to. Do the right thing and restore the six. If you don't have the scratch or may the need to own two 914s, then sell the 4..
Switching vin # Is wrong and nobody that truly cares about the lineage of this model, should consider doing it.
Posted by: bandjoey Oct 4 2012, 07:51 PM
If you look at the 6 in the other thread that started this discussion, there's probably not 10% of the metal still good. Someone pays 10k and spends 40k to restore the car with sheet metal from Restoration and other donors. Isn't that person entitled to sell the car as a real 6? It has all of the same parts??? A simple photo of the original car with the bill of sale speaks for the 'morality' of this matter.
If you watch shows like Chasing Classic Cars, you see $800,000 Ferrari's from the barn find, rusted out, and with a 1-2 year restoration being sold in Monterrey as original cars. So....the market does accept this kind of car.
Posted by: mepstein Oct 4 2012, 07:56 PM
Scott - I thought you said the switch would stay on the down low? You know, just between you, me and Kudzu. 
Posted by: hot_shoe914 Oct 4 2012, 08:05 PM
Okay, let's start with Christine. She has had the front clip replaced with an early model front clip. She is still a 1973 914 2.0. Say tomorrow some asshole plows into the rear end of her and I have to have the rear 1/2 of the car replaced, they do this with an early rear end. She is still registered as a 1973 914 2.0, yet at different times both halves of the car were replaced with early model halves. Does this suddenly make her an early model car? No, in the eyes of the law she is still a 1973 914 2.0. You people over thing everything.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 08:16 PM
I don't think so ...
Not too long ago, there was a completely rusted out original yellow /6 for sale on ebay that looked much worse that the one in the other thread.
Several months later, the VIN resurfaced as a rust free original /6 with GT flares and a big engine and shiny new silver paint.
The *only* things left of the original car were the VIN tags and some of the smaller parts.
The new owner has never officially admitted to a VIN swap, but the before and after photos tell the whole story.
Funny thing is, if it hadn't been for a lengthy thread here when the original rusted hulk was on ebay, nobody would have ever known that it was a VIN swap.
How would you feel if you just paid $50k for a really nice original /6 only to find out later you bought a /4 tub with 5 square inches of original /6 metal welded into the front fender?
Posted by: John Oct 4 2012, 08:16 PM
If I could, I would gladly "buy" a 914/6 vin and weld it into my chassis. Currently, the only differences would be the movable passenger seat, the oil return hose support, the (supposed) thicker sheet metal in some areas, the lack of dash board end vents, the later model front trunk gusset stiffeners, and the jack mounts in the rear trunk.
I have already done many of the 914/6 things such as the steering column, the oil tank and lines, the gauges, the fuel pump, and a few odds and ends.
I will never sell the car as an original "6", but I have attempted to keep the spirit of the marquee alive in keeping as many original or year specific equipment in tact. I did, however, back-date the gauges and the bumpers.
Posted by: 914Sixer Oct 4 2012, 08:33 PM
About 10 yrs back I remember seeing a real 6 body for sale minus the VIN tags. It was offered by a well know place. The sale stated that the VIN numbers had been moved to another body with the knowledge of the insurance company. The original body was beyond a reasonable repair cost for them.
Posted by: bigkensteele Oct 4 2012, 08:35 PM
In my view, this is a matter of yet another poorly written law. The intent was not to prevent swiss cheese cars from being restored, but to prevent late model stolen and salvage title cars from being resold without proper representation.
If I were to purchase Scotty's hypothetical six, I would MUCH rather it be restored using a pristine 4 tub with the numbers swapped over, than a cobbled together, 20% original 6 tub.
Excellence covered the "restoration" of Jerry Seinfeld's 550 a few months back. He had an entirely new body made, but nobody seems to mind. Would it not be more "original" if he used another body that was actually manufactured by Porsche?
Is the 4 tub verboten just because a lowly 1.7 once lived between the shock towers? I love Restoration Design and all that they have done for us, but if I were buying a restored car, I would want as much factory Porsche sheet metal as possible, and if that means a VIN swap, please, by all means go for it.
Of course, I would want the restoration to be documented, and full disclosure of the swap, but that is against the poorly written law.
Posted by: scotty b Oct 4 2012, 08:45 PM
In my view, this is a matter of yet another poorly written law. The intent was not to prevent swiss cheese cars from being restored, but to prevent late model stolen and salvage title cars from being resold without proper representation.
If I were to purchase Scotty's hypothetical six, I would MUCH rather it be restored using a pristine 4 tub with the numbers swapped over, than a cobbled together, 20% original 6 tub.
Excellence covered the "restoration" of Jerry Seinfeld's 550 a few months back. He had an entirely new body made, but nobody seems to mind. Would it not be more "original" if he used another body that was actually manufactured by Porsche?
Is the 4 tub verboten just because a lowly 1.7 once lived between the shock towers? I love Restoration Design and all that they have done for us, but if I were buying a restored car, I would want as much factory Porsche sheet metal as possible, and if that means a VIN swap, please, by all means go for it.
Of course, I would want the restoration to be documented, and full disclosure of the swap, but that is against the poorly written law.
this is my feeling as well. That is also why I stated that BOTH cars in this scenario had clean titles, yet many keep harping on the stolen aspect, and the lagality which was clearly stated were NOT the intent of the thread. Some seem to think that the metal on a 6 was magical. I see both as being the same car up to a point. One chassis went out the left door while one went out the right. IMO the two shells could have easily been in the reverse order. Opinions and assholes I s'pose
Posted by: Todd Enlund Oct 4 2012, 09:00 PM
If you built a very nice replica of a /6 on a /4 tub, with a /4 VIN, it is still not a /6.
If you then cut out the /4 VIN and weld in a /6 VIN, all of a sudden you have an authentic /6?
I think not.
Posted by: poorsche914 Oct 4 2012, 10:11 PM
SCENARIO 1: cutting up a rusty /6 and replacing all rusted metal panel by panel (all four fenders, both trunk floors, firewall, floors, longs, etc) with items cut from a /4 tub.
SCENARIO 2: cutting out the "good" parts of a rusted /6 (including VIN areas), cutting out the same sections of non-rusty /4 and then replacing with the /6 pieces.
Why is one acceptable and the other not?
Same parts are used for the final result. 
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 4 2012, 10:51 PM
Because one starts with the original tub and the other doesn't. Different tub, different car.
Same reason why a tubeframe racecar that started its life on a jig will never be a real 914, even if you add a few inches of front firewall 914 sheetmetal to it (as required by the rules) and put a FG shell on in the shape of a 914.
If you start with a /4 tub and add /6 numbers to it, it's still a /4 tub.
Posted by: pete-stevers Oct 4 2012, 10:55 PM
I think you would disclose the 4 tub with the 6 vin....
and you would be no better off after disclosure than if it were a convert in the first place...
Posted by: rdauenhauer Oct 4 2012, 11:34 PM
Lets be clear here folks, the root of this entire discussion is Money.
If you OWNED both cars as Great Scott theorized .... and you wanted to fix YOUR car & decided that you'd prefer to keep the /6... Do it. Enjoy it, after all... its just a car.
It only becomes complicated when money changes hands.
Posted by: toolguy Oct 4 2012, 11:47 PM
You should have added another voting possibility
"It's dishonest and fraudulent, no matter what the reason or intention"
Obviously you did not read the initial post as you were asked to do
I read your question and apparently you didn't understand my reply. . I suggested another answer availabe to you survey, to see what the feeling is about crating a false SIX. . . there have been pleanty of answers that seem to support that it is wrong to do. .
I feel there is no valid reason to falsify a vehicles vin or create an illusion as to a vehicles history. . .some place along the line, in the future, that illusion can become a fraud perpetrated on others. . . It's illegal for a reason.
A real six that is beyond repair is simply that, beyond repair. .it's a fact of life in the car world. . . the ones that are being resurrected from the grave are most likely being done to sell, and often by unscrupulous persons. . . . .
Damn, this isn't suppose to be a war. . . .
Posted by: Michael N Oct 5 2012, 12:16 AM
What about a certain prototype? If the vin was moved to a /4 body would it still be accepted as a prototype? Would it be accepted as a /6? 
I don't think it would be.
Posted by: carr914 Oct 5 2012, 02:58 AM
Maybe this perspective will explain things
This car is a 911 GT1
By the rules of that time it had to have a 911 (993) Bulkhead forward.
So in theory you could take a 993 & make one, but it would Never be a Real GT1
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Oct 5 2012, 04:44 AM
I would vote option Q
Me, Swap all the /6 stuff MINUS the vin to the perfect /4. Cut the tags and put in a bag and leave them in the glove box of the /4. My thought is while it will never be an orginal /6 at least the sprit lives on in the /4.
I know, I know 
Anyway that is what I would do YMMV 
Posted by: Series9 Oct 5 2012, 05:20 AM
I think about this from time to time and see both sides.
For me, I think we need some kind of accepted definition of what constitutes a restoration and what constitutes a VIN swap.
If you buy a /6 that has only the passenger, inner fender well as viable metal for a restoration, and you (let's look at it this way) replace all the metal around it with another chassis, is that a restoration?
I'm not a purist, so /6 VIN numbers don't really get me too excited. For me, each number is a unique 914.
The RS is 4722901447. She is a bad ass /6 and her history is unique.
Posted by: MDG Oct 5 2012, 05:59 AM
How would you feel if you just paid $50k for a really nice original /6 only to find out later you bought a /4 tub with 5 square inches of original /6 metal welded into the front fender?
Like many people here, I can work up an argument for both sides of this coin. And I 'get' what Andy is saying. But that is not Scotty's hypothetical intent.
You wouldn't just be getting a -4 with five square inches of -6 metal. The original 4 tub BECOMES the replacement metal and along with the five square inched of VIN tags, you also get every other component off the -6.
It could never be an 'original six' and could never be re-sold as such. But again - that's not Scotty's hypothetical question.
Or, maybe he's just weighing the idea of opening a chop shop and he's gauging how much anyone would care.
Posted by: chuckc Oct 5 2012, 06:48 AM
No matter how you slice it (pun intended):
- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.
- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.
- End of discussion.
I'm no purist, but ...if someone obtains your birth certificate, takes out a credit card in your name, gets a drivers license, and marries one of your ex girlfriends...would that make him you?
Posted by: mepstein Oct 5 2012, 06:53 AM
No matter how you slice it (pun intended):
- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.
- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.
- End of discussion.
I'm no purist, but ...if someone obtains your birth certificate, takes out a credit card in your name, gets a drivers license, and marries one of your ex girlfriends...would that make him you?
What if he was your identical twin?
Posted by: Richard Casto Oct 5 2012, 08:41 AM
Someone already beat me, but it is worth posting again...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
This topic has been discussed for nearly 2000 years and even as smart as this group is, I don't think there is going to be answer in this thread!
I read the "rules" in the first post and don't think the poll options cover all the bases, so I didn't answer. My personal opinion is that you can have an original /6 that has had no body work and maybe at best just regular maintenance (fluids, hoses, brake pads, tires, etc.). Basically a true time capsule car and then you have everything else. So the more extensive the restoration work, the less originality there is.
I would say the moment you swap out a single panel, the question of originality comes into question. Then you have questions about who did the work. If the work was performed by the Porsche factory, then who is to say they are wrong (and I am pretty sure they do this type of extensive restoration work). If it is done by a dealership, that is probably less "defensible" than the factory and so on down the line to regular people like us. I think there are also cases of historic cars that were wrecked getting restored. Problem is the car was in two halves. Each half is restored independently. Both claim to be the original car. What is the truth?
From a pure "logic" perspective, I see no difference in the two scenarios below other than the amount of work involved.
Start with a rusted /6 chassis in the left garage bay and a non-rusted /4 chassis in the right garage bay...
Scenario 1:
Cut and remove each body panel off the /6 and replace it with the body panel from the /4. At any one time there is only one part removed from the /6. At some point you will have to remove the parts from the /6 that includes the VIN. You cut and remove the VIN from the old part and place it into the new part. When done you have replaced all body panels. The /6 has always stayed in the left bay and parts were moved from the right to left bay. The old rusted /6 panels are discarded as you go.
Scenario 2:
Cut the VIN from the /6 chassis. Leave the metal with the VIN on the floor in the left bay. Remove the parts from the /4 chassis that you don't need (such as engine mounts). Carry the entire /4 chassis over from the right to left bay and then weld in the VIN parts.
As I said above, both are functionally the same. However scenario 1 just required complete disassembly of both chassis to accomplish while scenario 2 just short cuts the process via less disassembly/reassembly.
Please try to define at what point in scenario #1 the /6 no longer is real? Is it when the first part is changed? When 1/2 the parts have been changed? Would it make any difference if both cars were /6s and the one that was being restored was a known "historic" car as the source was a plain jane /6? At what point is the "historic" car no more?
There is no single answer as everyone will have their own. In my opinion, the correct (and ethical) answer is to ensure that whatever happens is documented and then the next owner can decide the value. Questions as to legality is a different topic.
Richard
Posted by: Racer Chris Oct 5 2012, 09:40 AM
...
In my opinion, the correct (and ethical) answer is to ensure that whatever happens is documented and then the next owner can decide the value. Questions as to legality is a different topic.
Yes.
I think that if full disclosure is provided to any purchaser of the "restored" vehicle,
and if full compliance with the laws of the governing agency (State DMV for example) was followed, there is nothing wrong with whatever may be done.
It's only when the vehicle is misrepresented as something it isn't that ethics comes into play.
Posted by: flipb Oct 5 2012, 10:07 AM
I would vote option Q
Me, Swap all the /6 stuff MINUS the vin to the perfect /4. Cut the tags and put in a bag and leave them in the glove box of the /4. My thought is while it will never be an orginal /6 at least the sprit lives on in the /4.
I know, I know
Anyway that is what I would do YMMV I like this approach. What does welding in the /6 VIN accomplish, other than making the car's provenance questionable instead of straightforward?
Posted by: timothy_nd28 Oct 5 2012, 11:14 AM
What about this, The German workers at the Porsche factory that worked on the 914-6 line were close buddy's. Let's say that the 914-6 production line consisted of only 10 Germans, which happened to all be kleptomaniac's. Over the years, each guy took home various parts. Wolfgang, one of the 10 people assembling the 914-6 was bending over Katja who worked in the administrative building. Katja had access to VIN plates, and grabbed a handful for Wolfgang.
Recently, they all attended a barbecue reunion to celebrate the time when they worked together. Wolfgang wanted to test each co-worker if they still remembered how to do their assigned job on the 914-6 assembly line. Each ex-coworker ran home to grab their various stolen pieces. A few hours later, they all met back up in Wolfgang's garage, for which they built a 914-6 within a few days. Is this a true 914-6?
Posted by: BK911 Oct 5 2012, 11:44 AM
Is the amount of repair panels allowed quantified somewhere? If 50% are new panels it is no longer original? 75%? How about 99.9%?
You cut all around the vin so the vin remains, and then attach one BIG repair piece around it.
Posted by: Jgilliam914 Oct 5 2012, 11:58 AM
What about this, The German workers at the Porsche factory that worked on the 914-6 line were close buddy's. Let's say that the 914-6 production line consisted of only 10 Germans, which happened to all be kleptomaniac's. Over the years, each guy took home various parts. Wolfgang, one of the 10 people assembling the 914-6 was bending over Katja who worked in the administrative building. Katja had access to VIN plates, and grabbed a handful for Wolfgang.
Recently, they all attended a barbecue reunion to celebrate the time when they worked together. Wolfgang wanted to test each co-worker if they still remembered how to do their assigned job on the 914-6 assembly line. Each ex-coworker ran home to grab their various stolen pieces. A few hours later, they all met back up in Wolfgang's garage, for which they built a 914-6 within a few days. Is this a true 914-6?
If the VIN was registered within the factory upon creation of the serial numbers then it would be considered a factory registered car. Otherwise it is no different than the 904 re creation that is in Hemmings. Would I buy such a car? You bet! But would I pay as much as a Restored or non molested original? Probably not
Posted by: carr914 Oct 5 2012, 12:32 PM
What about this, The German workers at the Porsche factory that worked on the 914-6 line were close buddy's. Let's say that the 914-6 production line consisted of only 10 Germans, which happened to all be kleptomaniac's. Over the years, each guy took home various parts. Wolfgang, one of the 10 people assembling the 914-6 was bending over Katja who worked in the administrative building. Katja had access to VIN plates, and grabbed a handful for Wolfgang.
Recently, they all attended a barbecue reunion to celebrate the time when they worked together. Wolfgang wanted to test each co-worker if they still remembered how to do their assigned job on the 914-6 assembly line. Each ex-coworker ran home to grab their various stolen pieces. A few hours later, they all met back up in Wolfgang's garage, for which they built a 914-6 within a few days. Is this a true 914-6?
No, and each one of them would be liable for Grand Theft (or the equivilant in Germany)
Posted by: Rockaria Oct 5 2012, 01:02 PM
It would be fraud to swap the vin numbers.. plain and simple.
Look at the price of a 1.7 4.
Now look at the price of a 1.7 with a 6 in it.
Now look at the price of a factory 6.
The only reason to swap the vin is to have the most valuable car. If money had nothing to do with it, this question would not have ever come up and the hypothetical owner would properly restore the original 6 or put the 6 engine in the 1.7 and enjoy!
If the vin gets swapped, eventually in it's life it will change hands. Probably more than once. The first person may disclose it, or not. What about the second, third and so on. We barely know anything about our cars sometimes. How will it be guaranteed that for the life of this car it will always be known as a 1.7 with a factory 6 vin.
I would hate to know I spent tens of thousands of dollars on a car that looks like a factory 6 when in fact it is an updated 1.7 that rolled down a completely different assembly line.
And Yes, This thread is about legality. Just the thought of Vin tags getting swaped, no matter the intention, makes it a legality issue.
Posted by: balljoint Oct 5 2012, 01:35 PM
Someone already beat me, but it is worth posting again...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
This topic has been discussed for nearly 2000 years and even as smart as this group is, I don't think there is going to be answer in this thread!
Richard
Nice effort Richard. Above and beyond what I did but no one reads anyone else's posts in a thread like this. You are casting proscuitto before jewelers.
Posted by: MDG Oct 5 2012, 02:25 PM
I wonder how many late 60s/early 70s Mustangs, Camaro's and MOPARS are out there with completely new rolling chassis' from Dynacorn and Year One and all those places?. All identifying marks transferred from the rusted tub and all still registered as a 1967 . . . or 1970 . . . or whatever.
A lot I bet. Those companies are doing booming business. In fact I know of two just in my circle of friends. And if you aren't aware - unlike our cars even with the valiant efforts of RD - for these things you can buy every . . single . . part . . new. They even come pre-assembled if you want.
Posted by: preach Oct 5 2012, 02:40 PM
I had an experience with this sort of thing before with a 1979 Jeep CJ.
A guy had a grudge with me and reported my Jeep to the DMV due to a welded rearend chirping the tires when I made a turn.
Well the jeep was on it's second body in my ownership, the rearend was out of an IH scout, this was from that, that was from this, etc.
DMV state trooper was really cool as he informed me on the letters of the law here in NH. Frame did not match Tub did not match windshield, etc.
After about 2 hours discussing the matter he scraped my inspection sticker off and wanted to take my plates. Vanity plates, so I talked him into taking the stickers off of those. He told me that in order to get them back I had to show receipts for all of the parts on the vehicle with VINs from the doner. Ugh, I had collected the bits over about 10 years so there was no way I could get this done. The vehicle was not even allowed to be flat towed on the road.
I ended up parting out the Jeep though it wast built quite well and performed exceptionally off-road.
Now, had I done a stellar job of replacing the VINs it would have been a completely different story.
I abstain from voting.
Posted by: Jesco Reient Oct 5 2012, 06:10 PM
...
In my opinion, the correct (and ethical) answer is to ensure that whatever happens is documented and then the next owner can decide the value. Questions as to legality is a different topic.
Yes.
I think that if full disclosure is provided to any purchaser of the "restored" vehicle,
and if full compliance with the laws of the governing agency (State DMV for example) was followed, there is nothing wrong with whatever may be done.
It's only when the vehicle is misrepresented as something it isn't that ethics comes into play.
Moving a VIN from one vehicle to another is not legal in any state, end of story.
Posted by: kg6dxn Oct 5 2012, 06:14 PM
Moving a VIN from one vehicle to another is not legal in any state, end of story.
Then keep the VIN and move the body panels over...
Posted by: bulitt Oct 5 2012, 07:44 PM
When do we start the discussion about salvage titles???
Posted by: BajaXJ92 Oct 5 2012, 08:09 PM
I would vote option Q
Me, Swap all the /6 stuff MINUS the vin to the perfect /4. Cut the tags and put in a bag and leave them in the glove box of the /4. My thought is while it will never be an orginal /6 at least the sprit lives on in the /4.
I know, I know
Anyway that is what I would do YMMV I like this approach. What does welding in the /6 VIN accomplish, other than making the car's provenance questionable instead of straightforward?
Who are you really trying to fool by cutting the VIN tags out and swapping them over, yourself, or someone else?
The only reason to do the swap would be to increase the value of the car, with intent to sell.
I would personally be livid if I purchased a -6 only to find out that someone did a VIN swap to a -4, as I'm sure most everyone would.
With that said, I don't honestly care to own a real -6, I'd be just fine with a nice 3.2 or V8 swap any day.
Posted by: TJB/914 Oct 5 2012, 08:21 PM
I wonder how many late 60s/early 70s Mustangs, Camaro's and MOPARS are out there with completely new rolling chassis' from Dynacorn and Year One and all those places?. All identifying marks transferred from the rusted tub and all still registered as a 1967 . . . or 1970 . . . or whatever.
A lot I bet. Those companies are doing booming business. In fact I know of two just in my circle of friends. And if you aren't aware - unlike our cars even with the valiant efforts of RD - for these things you can buy every . . single . . part . . new. They even come pre-assembled if you want.
MDG,
This is a great post, because I have a 1970 Mustang Mach-1 clear title with all the vin #'s left over from a former restoration many years ago. My son wants to purchase a Dynacorn body (about $15K) and use my title & vin #'s. These repo body's are exact copy's of the original and new parst can be purchased to NOS quality. The vin is an M-code with 4-speed close ratio trans, grabber orange fully loader w/options so it will become a real valuable Stang. I don't see anything wrong with this option. Sheet metal is sheet metal when it comes out of the press & has no claim to orig. or repo status if it's an exact copy.
I see nothing wrong with using a real 914-6 vin if repo sheet metal & correct parts are used for restoration. BTW: My opinion & not a legal statement.
Tom
Posted by: Jesco Reient Oct 6 2012, 12:38 PM
I wonder how many late 60s/early 70s Mustangs, Camaro's and MOPARS are out there with completely new rolling chassis' from Dynacorn and Year One and all those places?. All identifying marks transferred from the rusted tub and all still registered as a 1967 . . . or 1970 . . . or whatever.
A lot I bet. Those companies are doing booming business. In fact I know of two just in my circle of friends. And if you aren't aware - unlike our cars even with the valiant efforts of RD - for these things you can buy every . . single . . part . . new. They even come pre-assembled if you want.
MDG,
This is a great post, because I have a 1970 Mustang Mach-1 clear title with all the vin #'s left over from a former restoration many years ago. My son wants to purchase a Dynacorn body (about $15K) and use my title & vin #'s. These repo body's are exact copy's of the original and new parst can be purchased to NOS quality. The vin is an M-code with 4-speed close ratio trans, grabber orange fully loader w/options so it will become a real valuable Stang. I don't see anything wrong with this option. Sheet metal is sheet metal when it comes out of the press & has no claim to orig. or repo status if it's an exact copy.
I see nothing wrong with using a real 914-6 vin if repo sheet metal & correct parts are used for restoration. BTW: My opinion & not a legal statement.
Tom
The Dynacorn bodies DO have differing identification details and are supposed to be completed as kit cars.
Posted by: bandjoey Oct 7 2012, 10:14 AM
Ready for some new metal...Will it be the same car? Sure
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Sleepin Oct 7 2012, 12:33 PM
As long as you "move all the /4 parts to the /6 VIN", not "move the /6 VIN to the /4 parts".
Or as long as you keep the /6 firewall, tunnel and turn signal. 
We could argue the ethics all day long as to what makes the car "restored" vs. "fraudulent".
Posted by: kg6dxn Oct 7 2012, 09:07 PM
I'm thinking about swapping my 914 VIN out for a 71 Hemi Cuda VIN. It will be worth way more money then...
Posted by: Jgilliam914 Oct 7 2012, 10:32 PM
I'm thinking about swapping my 914 VIN out for a 71 Hemi Cuda VIN. It will be worth way more money then...
Sure why not? I think there are more 69- 71 Hemi's out there now than Detroit made in those 3 years one more wont hurt the market any
Posted by: ScoopLV Oct 12 2012, 10:15 AM
Lets be clear here folks, the root of this entire discussion is Money.
If you OWNED both cars as Great Scott theorized .... and you wanted to fix YOUR car & decided that you'd prefer to keep the /6... Do it. Enjoy it, after all... its just a car.
It only becomes complicated when money changes hands.
Only if the seller isn't upfront about what he or she hypothetically did.
If someone sold me a six, and I later found out it was originally a four. And I paid the going rate for a six, I would feel cheated. I might even put up a poll about what hypothetical illegal things I could do to the seller.
But if someone sold me the same car, and told me what happened and why, then it's my decision whether to buy it or not.
The problem arises when (not if) someone with a more cavalier moral compass decides to buy a six-looking-four for $X and then sell an "original, numbers-matching six" for $X+30,000.
Posted by: rjames Oct 12 2012, 11:14 AM
If you're really just swapping the VIN and not much else, then as others have stated, all you've done is added a six VIN to a four and made it into a six replica. The VIN swap doesn't change the fact that it's still a four. If the car was to be put up for sale and work was fully disclosed it wouldn't\shouldn't fetch the price of a six. It would only be worth what the 4 was worth + the worth of the added six parts. If you want a six, restore the six. If you want a replica then build the replica and don't bother swapping the VIN.
I get the argument that theoretically if you replaced 99% of the panels on the real six then what's the difference between that and just moving the VIN, but to me if repairing a six really involves replacing that much of the metal, than the car is dead and the VIN should be retired. It's OK, it happens. Besides, it will just make the remaining sixes worth that much more.
Oh and...
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