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Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 01:25 PM

I guess I spoke too soon in another thread, I said it wasnt that tough to do a V8 conversion. I keep running into little snags here and there. Of course the leaking brake lines have nothing to do with the V8, its a snag all in all. The little snag I am having now I am hoping someone here can help me with. I pulled the car out of the garage today and put it in the driveway since it is such a beautiful warm sunny day. Trouble is now, I get really bad chatter from the clutch when I try to put it in gear. I have it adjusted all the way to the end of the threads and it still chatters, did I forget something? Someone has to have encountered this before. Help a guy out, I really want to drive this thing.

Posted by: sgomes Oct 30 2004, 01:39 PM

I'm no expert but I too ran out of adjustment on my clutch. It was suggested from people who know, to add some washers to the adjuster. I did and it worked great.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 30 2004, 01:56 PM

sounds like an easy fix....

what clutch disc are you using?

Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 01:59 PM

The one I am running is the 228mm flywheel and pressure plate with the Kevlar puck stage III clutch.

Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 02:33 PM

Still hoping for an answer, anyone have this problem occur?

Posted by: drew365 Oct 30 2004, 04:24 PM

Scott; I'm pretty sure that on your last thread about clutch being stuck, someone mentioned something about chattering. I think you should look back at that thread. Sorry that's all I got.

Posted by: Mueller Oct 30 2004, 04:35 PM

sounds "normal" for Kevlar unit i believe....

Posted by: DrifterJay Oct 30 2004, 04:48 PM

just step on the gas...once you start moving it wont chatter

Posted by: sgomes Oct 30 2004, 06:08 PM

Um, I wasn't kidding. I think that is your answer! Did I missunderstand the question?

Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 06:12 PM

No, you got it right I think, I wasnt quite to the end of the threads and just went in and tightened it more and the clutch actually worked but still chattered a little bit, So since I am now at the end of the threads, I will take it off and put a spacer in there and see if I can go a little more. If it does, this car will be on the road the first part of the week.

Posted by: Toast Oct 30 2004, 06:15 PM

Try adjusting the pedal until its to the point where you have no slack at all before it engages. Then back track (unscrew) it 1/4 of an inch.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 30 2004, 06:16 PM

:immenent hijack!:

toast: hows smokey?

Posted by: Toast Oct 30 2004, 06:18 PM

Oops. Sorry Scott.
I was thinking about how to rig the break lights when you are racing.

Sorry if I confused you.

Toasted

Posted by: Toast Oct 30 2004, 06:20 PM

Still Smokin. (I really like that movie )
I cant figure out how to get it to quit leaking oil so bad.

Posted by: GWN7 Oct 30 2004, 06:21 PM

I think I remember a post about the kevlar clutches...it said something like they chatter till broken in a bit....

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 30 2004, 06:22 PM

i wasnt sure if i heard this either....

Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 06:58 PM

Well, since the car is outside and I still have not got the clutch to work without chatter, I figure I will leave it out for tonight and cover it up. Tomorrow I will get the clutch adjusted and finish the rest of what I need to get done and take it for a spin around the block. Then Monday I will go get the registration done and then over to the alignment shop. With any luck, nothing breaks on it. Then its time to get started on the body and get it ready for paint. Here she is all tucked in for the night.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: 914GT Oct 30 2004, 09:23 PM

With my stage III KEP clutch I had to bend the clutch fork a little and also put a washer behind the fork pivot. I didn't need to add any spacer on my cable adjuster and I still have a lot of threads left. But maybe you have a different setup than mine too. Does it go into reverse easily?

Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 09:41 PM

Yeah, I had no problem getting it into gear, it just chatters a lot when I try to let out the clutch. I will try adjusting it a little more tomorrow and see what happens. I let the clutch out in 2nd and let the tires turn for a bit and the chatter never stopped.

Posted by: 914GT Oct 30 2004, 09:48 PM

It sounds like the clutch isn't fully engaging - that it's too tight. Yet if I remember correctly you had to tighten it up to keep the clutch fork from interfering with the pressure plate. Maybe you should loosen it out a bit but just tight enough so your reverse gear still works without grinding (or the 'normal' amount of grinding).

Edit: Just reread your first post, is the adjustment all the way in or out to the end of the clutch cable?

Posted by: skline Oct 30 2004, 09:59 PM

It is all the way to the end of the threads if you were to tighten it as much as you could. So I am out of adjustment, I cant adjust it any further without putting in a spacer or something.

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 30 2004, 11:00 PM

I picked up on something here while reading this post. 914GT posted your clutch cable may be too tight. There may be something to that and it's worth investigating. Here's why I think he may be on track.

Soon after I finished my car I was having trouble putting it into 1st and reverse from a stationary position as some of you witnessed at the WCC. I think I was trying to grind hambuger not shift gears. I like the clutch to disengage close to the floor. Mine was a little too close.

After returning home the grinding was getting worse. I took up some of the cable adjustment so I had about 1/3 to 1/4 of the threads left. That solved the problem. No more grinding. Now the clutch disengages between 1/2 an 1/3 from the peddle board.

If you can shift into 1st and reverse as normal then your clutch is disengaging.


If put the car ingear and start it, then ease out the clutch, where is the peddle travel as it starts to engage?

If it's high this may confirm 914GT's post.

After confiming the engagement point and making an adjustment so the peddle is closer to the floor when take up starts. check to see if the arm coming out of the bell housing now hits on the pressure plate. If that is happening do as 914GT reccommended and install a washer under the pivot ball.

keep us posted

BTW: I have a kevlar 4 puck clutch with 6 springs. Take it easy for the first 500 miles. Call "B" I think that's what he told me. I think it needs to seat in. About 500 easy miles should do the trick. Mine is now smooth as silk!


One other original thought. did you install the correct pilot bearing?

The other suggestion. Nut and bolt it! Check every nut and bolt hold the engine in, the engine to the adapter plate to the block, adapter plate to the bellhousing, and the transaxle to the chassis. A bad or loose mount will cause the engine to buck wildly and feel like a clutch problem. I now have solid mounts on all 4 corners. My car just lifts the front and goes now!

Posted by: tesserra Oct 30 2004, 11:23 PM

Scott,
When you do the v8 conversion you moved the trans back about 1.5 inches. Is there still a good bend in the clutch tube? Is the firewall where the clutch tube goes in good shape? Is th firewall deflected at all? This used to happen to VW bugs and 911s. It could, unfortunately, indicate that the clutch tube, inside the tunnel is broken.
The fix on the bugs and 911s was to put washers at the end of the clutch tube at the trans end, that would put more of a bend in the tube. This was a fix that lasted about 1 year then the clutch tube would break in the tunnel and you needed to do some welding.
Whatever you do make shure the clutch fully engages before you put any power to it.
Good luck, Brad just spent a lot of time figuring mine out and the last people to work on the car before Brad was Renegade. Works well now.

George

Posted by: John2kx Oct 31 2004, 06:10 AM

Scott,

If you have the travel adjusted where you can engage gears without grinding, I would not worry about clutch chatter until you get some miles on it. Renegade told me to drive it like my grandmother for the first 100 miles. If this procedure was not followed, the clutch would be ruined and chatter would occur from that point on.

BTW, are you doing this test with the tires off ground? Just wondering based on the attached pic.

John

Posted by: skline Oct 31 2004, 06:26 AM

Yes, the car is off the ground right now while I do some other stuff. Replacing leaking brake lines and double checking all the nuts and bolts under the car. I also need to try to adjust the rear wheels a little, they are pointing out away from the car. Its like this sorta \ / and they squeal when I hit the cement on the driveway. I am already regretting installing Weltmiester control arm bushings in the rear.

Posted by: John2kx Oct 31 2004, 06:55 AM

The toe out problem is another issue. I'd focus on putting some road miles on it and building your "B" punch list, AFTER the brakes are leak free. I logged 100 miles a day the first couple of weeks to work out all the bugs and do the proper break in of engine............I was dying to feel full throttle : )

Surprising to me, the first time my car hit pavement I drove 50 miles to show my fellow gear heads without any problems. Did end up needing a minor adjustment to lifters, burp of cooling system and minor clutch adjustment.

John

Posted by: skline Oct 31 2004, 07:24 AM

Whats a "B" punch list? The toe in is a major concern before I drive it, if it sqeaks so much just moving in the driveway, some serious tire wear will occur when I hit the pavement.

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 31 2004, 08:08 AM

Maybe the axles hanging at full deflection are causing the feeling of the chatter. When I had my 1.7 in my car I had the bolts fall out of my transaxle mounts. The axles were at full deflection. as they rotated they would pick the transaxle up and then slap it back down on the Ansa exhaust. (mental picture)

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! It was horrible!

With the axles hanging that far down it may cause that shuddering. Just a thought.

Oh and BTW: clutch take up is going to be hard to judge without the resistance of the ground. Try hold the emergency brake handle up as you ease the clutch in and out. Hold the botton in though so you can let it off as you release the clutch to full engagement.

Posted by: John2kx Oct 31 2004, 08:11 AM

Sorry, "B punchlist" is a term used in my business where we identify (list) all items needing attention prior to turning a project over for operation.

I thought your bushings were only making noise when lowering car........like a squeek. Sounds like you have a more severe problem and agree, this needs to be corrected prior to driving. Not sure how hard to adjust toe in/out to rear would be for a DIYer, I have no experience with that one on a 914. Looking at the attachment points of the rear trailing arms, it does not look that hard to get "close".

John

Posted by: skline Oct 31 2004, 08:31 AM

The bolts at the attachment arms are a no brainer, the 3 that hold it in the front where the shims go is where the toe in adjustment is. I just need to loosen them and pull the back of the wheel out and then tighten them while holding out on the wheel. I tried it a few times and it still isnt right yet. I need to get someone over here to help me with it. Maybe Joe or someone could stop by and lend a hand with that. The clutch is just a matter of adjustment at this point, I am getting full engagement but there is a point where it can go too far and a point where it is not enough. I will eventually find the happy medium.

Posted by: vsg914 Oct 31 2004, 09:52 AM

Scott, I made a set of these from wood(I'm a cabinetmaker by profession). They work great.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/home_toe_in/home_toe_in.htm

Posted by: SLITS Oct 31 2004, 10:18 AM

The other method is to use a set of "jack stands" with a string tied between them at hub center height - called "stringing a car" in my day. You set the string equal distance from the hub center (front and rear) - this is your reference point. You can then measure from the string to the front and rear of the tire / rim and determine the "toe out / toe in". Car must be setting on a level plane - not on jack stands or block and the suspension must be settled (as in bounce on fenders while rolling it back and forth).

Posted by: skline Oct 31 2004, 10:34 AM

I dont understand any of that, Slits, come help me. I want to drive this thing today.

Posted by: SLITS Oct 31 2004, 01:11 PM

Wish I could, but can't today.

The string is a horizontal line between hub center lines (front wheel bearing and rear axle nut), but extends beyond each at least past the front of the front tire and rear of the rear tire. If this line is placed equal distance from the front hub and rear axle nut, it give you a point of reference in space to determine if your wheels are toed in or out, by measuring from the line to the rear part of the rim "A" and measuring from the line to the front part of the rim "B" (this measurement is taken at an equal height of the string on the rim). If the first measurement "A" is less than the second "B", the wheels are toed in and visa versa.

Not remembering the actual number I will say that "A" minus "B" should equal positive 1/32" to 1/16".