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Posted by: Kerrys914 Nov 7 2004, 06:24 PM

I am thinking about doing a V8 conversion this winter to my '73.

I couldn't locate the thread that talks about costs and what is needed.

- How good are the V8 kits out there?
- Who has a better kit?
- Do you need to overhaul the V8 to move the torque band up in the RPM range?
- What is a good engine to look for? I would not like to mess my tranny up so I don't need 400HP
- I am going through my tranny this winter too. I have another tranny to get parts from..Should I flip some gears around for better drivablility?

Cheers
Kerry

Posted by: 914GT Nov 7 2004, 07:10 PM

Go to the http://deserthybrids.com web site and you'll find a wealth of information on V8 conversions. All the kits are good. I've had no problems with DH and I think his will save you some $$. You don't need to overhaul the V8 if it's a good running engine to begin with. There are things you can do, like change the cam, to move the power/torque curve up higher rpm. Federal-Mogul's web site for http://www.21cgt.com/FMWebCatalog/default.htm cams has info on choosing a cam to match your requirmements. You can spend more money for improved lifters, rockers, etc. but it's not necessary in order to have a scary-fast 914. I think a 350, 327, 283 or even a 307 are good engines to use. The 327 and 283 have shorter strokes. I don't know about flipping gears around. Definitely for highway cruising it would be nice to have a higher gear. Personally I like the stock 901 gears for around town driving.

Posted by: skline Nov 7 2004, 07:22 PM

I cant say much about Desert Hybrids, I can tell you about Renegade Hybrids, Rod Simpson and Kennedy Engineering. If you want to shop around, check all of them out, They pretty much use the same stuff. 914GT really has a sweet car and very well laid out. If that is the kind of work that Desert Hybrids does, I would definitely give them a look also. As for the radiator, there is no comparison on any of them, Renegade is the only choice in my opinion. Kennedy has the best price for the adapter, clutch pressure plate and flywheel. They will also have the throwout bearing and pilot bearing kit. I think they have the best price on those items. As for gearing, the stock is fine for around town driving or AXing if that is what you want. If you want to do any long distance driving, I would look into different gears for 4th and 5th or at least 5th. Good luck with it, it is scary fast with any V8, the 327 or 283 are the ideal choice but many have had great results with the 350. Stay away from the 400's as they have way too much torque.

Posted by: 914GT Nov 7 2004, 07:33 PM

Thanks much for the comment about my car. Just to be clear - I built my car and not DH. But DH does build some great cars, and he is extremely helpful to answer questions. I did buy the engine mount bar, KEP Stage III clutch and adapter plate, starter, and radiator/fan kit from DH. I did my own electric water pump design. I have had zero problems with the DH radiator, 3/4" steel pipe under the car, and my water pump - even in stop/go traffic on 110 deg days. Engine has never gone over 200F. So I think you can't go wrong with either Renegade or DH. If you 'roll you own' cooling system be prepared to do some experimenting and engineering on your own to get it right.

Posted by: brp914 Nov 7 2004, 08:03 PM

Dont do it. You must have better things to do with your time and $. You will work your ass off, blow a fortune and then sell it for a huge loss.

Posted by: chunger Nov 7 2004, 08:22 PM

Go for it. . .

I tried to bite off too much for myself to chew on my conversion, but I will finish it. Got sidetracked with house.

I bought my stuff from Renegade, and the products are good, and they stand behind them.

KEP we helpful as well, and seems they've got their stuff together.

Desert Hybrids was not around yet when I did the majority of my conversion parts gathering, but they look like good folks.

My budget buster was the 930 transmission. Set me back $4500.00 but if I ever get this thing stuck together, I'll be able to romp on it. Mabe even know how to drive by then since I'm picking up Rob's a/x car.

Seems the 350 parts are cheaper than other displacemnents for motor building. Can build long duration, short lift (cheap valvetrain components) motor for reasonable.

-'Chung

Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 7 2004, 08:42 PM

Kerry,
There's tons of info on the conversion here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=8cea01ced9af4ce221b99af675766ba9&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=v8+conversion There's more if you search just "V8".
There are other websites, bbs', and PM (private messaging) to V8 owners. Decide on the type of car you want, how much you want to personally wrench, and of course your budget.
Good luck,
Felix

Posted by: Kerrys914 Nov 7 2004, 08:46 PM

Thanks..

I don't mind fabing things up..Kind-a fun

I figure I will need to buy fro DH or ?? ;
- Engine mount bar
- Adapter Plate
- Clutch kit
- Starter
- Radiator
- V8 Engine

Any more details on the electric water pump?

Does anyone one have a spreadsheet of the costs/parts they bought? Do you guys think it is possible to get a conversion done for around $3000 or less?

Cheers

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 08:50 PM

I'm looking at the DH site and half the 914 pics are from RH ?? The 930 shift linkgage is from RS ??

I push Renegade. Still push Renegade. The radiator setup from RH is VERY nice and somewhat pricey..


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 08:51 PM

3000$ or less ??

Do you have the engine ?? I forget what you said..lol

3000$ will get you a kit without a decent radiator.

I tell people 12k for a warrantied GM crate 350 and the install with RH parts and RH radiator.



B

Posted by: 914GT Nov 7 2004, 09:31 PM

Well, you can see everyone has their opinions on this subject. A few DH parts are Renegade or Rod Simpson, like the linkage. Some parts don't justify the effort & cost to build yourself, but he offers them to customers who want them. His water pumps, brackets, and engine mount bars he manufactures himself and they have some advantages over some of the other designs. The brackets are less prone to flex. But it all comes down to comparing the prices. I put $1800 into an old 350. It kicks ass. A good machine shop can build a better motor than a crate motor, and definitely better than the POS remanufactured engines from FLAPS.
I'm running Dedenbear remote pump and water header. Works great. Runs cool. Less than $400 and you can then run a stock Chevy fuel pump. Again, others have opinions they don't work and that's fine. Works for me and when I build another one I'll use the exact same design.

Follow-up correction to above: none of Desert Hybrids parts are from Renegade.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 09:55 PM

I like the electric pump idea.. but they are designed for cooling off engines between drag racing rounds. I looked into the continued use and it was something like 500 hours.. barely a years worth of driving to/from work once a week (please prove me wrong)

Correct on the crate motor.. ALL local shops can build stuff cheaper.. but you wont get the warranty. I dont use the all iron motors.. pay a few more bucks and save some weight with the aluminum headed crate engines.

I have assembled everyones kits over the last 14 years (except the DH guy) His stuff looks good. I'm happy to see he actually makes it himself.. something none of the others do. This means he can correct problems in the manufacturing of the goods fasters than RH or RS.


B

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 7 2004, 10:01 PM

May have some V8 conversion parts for sale soon.

I need money to buy this.


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 10:17 PM

That is VERY nice. Let us know what you are going to sell.


B

Posted by: WaltGGB Nov 7 2004, 10:25 PM

Question related to SBC swap. Sorry if this is considered a hijack. Can a TPI setup be used without hacking up the trunk?

Thanks, Walt

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 10:35 PM

I havent seen a successful TPI setup installed into a 914 (which year Walt ?) The throttle body would end up between your shoulders. I do know Accell sold one that hung the throttle body off to the side of the center plenum, but I havent seen that used in a 914 either.


B

Posted by: chunger Nov 7 2004, 10:35 PM

no tpi into 914 without hacking trunk. . . yet. . .

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 10:40 PM

why hacking the trunk ?? I dont get it.. nothing hangs off the back of a TPI engine.. the dizzy is the only thing in the way ??

I personally would use a mini ram engine from a 95 or so Vette.



B

Posted by: chunger Nov 7 2004, 10:44 PM

oops. . . sorry I meant hacking the firewall. I'm dislexcic and can't spell too

Posted by: 914GT Nov 7 2004, 10:44 PM

The pump I'm using is meant more for hot rod applications rather than drag racing. It's rated for 10k hours but the engineer at Pleasanton CA told me they'd seen them run much longer than that. They can be jammed up by sloppy use of Teflon thread tape or use of radiator leak-stop. The rebuild kits are fairly inexpensive and replacement motors aren't terribly high either. I'd love to have an all-aluminum block, hell I'd be thrilled with just the heads. Maybe someday...

Posted by: WaltGGB Nov 7 2004, 10:51 PM

Brad, no specific year as I don't own a 914 yet.

Would probably be 73 or later because of sideshifter. Just doing some research at this point.

If the plenum could be rotated 180 degrees, would this work? Or, is the dizzy still in the way? I don't want to do any hacking when the time comes.

The sideways plenum sounds like a possible option. I think most of the lowrise aftermarket TPI setups were desigened for horsepower vs torque. Which I think would be more desireable in a SBC swap anyway.

Walt

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 10:55 PM

I like the whole idea of an electric pump. Consistant flow of water not changed by throttle input. Which pump did you use from Dedenbear ?


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 10:57 PM

Walt,

I meant what year TPI engine.... Yep.. cant flip the intake unless you plan on running a MSD blower style dizzy (which is possible)


B

Posted by: WaltGGB Nov 7 2004, 11:08 PM

Brad,

Not even sure of year engine I would use. Probably later Speed Density type to avoid MAF, and the extra cold start valve(injector). I think you can buy a 4 wire harness (easy) for the speed density type.

Wouldn't the 95 present problems with it being a GEN 2 SBC. Such as cam driven waterpump, or are there remote solutions for the GEN 2?

Walt

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 11:11 PM

I havent seen a remote setup for GenII. I have always wondered if the cam driven waterpump could be left in place IF you removed the engine shelf in front of the motor.

Thinking back.. a 89 or so engine would probably work better.

Oh ..hell skip all that crap and do the LS1 engine.. ha ha


B

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 7 2004, 11:18 PM

A LS1 will fit with the throttle body facing to the front with only slight mods to the firewall. The stock water pump will work also. The pictures are of a rust car I had and cut up to use for making the engine mounts. The pix's are with the engine mounted the same as a small block chevy would be 1.25" to the rear.


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Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 7 2004, 11:19 PM

And one more


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 11:20 PM

Damn.. I knew if I used a LS1 I would have a air cleaner for an armrest. Crap. I was hoping for a better fit.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 11:22 PM

Can you give me the length on that engine (the longest points) I still want to do a LS1 powered Boxster and I will have the engine out of a Boxster very soon.


B

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 7 2004, 11:36 PM

Brad I'm working on a cover for the front of the throttle body that will allow the air filter to be mounted on top the intake. This will all fit under what looks like a stock backpad . I can do this if I use a 97 computer and don't use the mass air flow sensor. If I stay with the 2002 computer and use the MAF I'll mount the MAF and air filter on the driver side of the car. Picture don't show it but the throttle body has 2" of clearence to where the stock backpad would be.

Bob

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 11:39 PM

Man. That is TIGHT. I would *almost* lose the intake setup and go for the carb intake with a 1400cfm throttle plate setup...


B

Posted by: dan10101 Nov 7 2004, 11:42 PM

Well, I'm looking at Andrews costs so far. He has about 2500 into the conversion (less if you count parts sales). Another 1500 in suspension, brakes, tires and wheels. He was only able to do it that cheap because of some very generous people on this list. We also hit ebay and swap meets. The bottom line is, it still needs bunches of body work hours and some interior work. But it goes very nicely with at least double the HP and triple the torque. Some additional parts replacment should increase those numbers.

Note: I still have a stack of 'small' reciepts to add up...

BigKat, I hope you finish that LS1 before you sell it. But I'll understand if you buy the black rod. It's sweet

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 7 2004, 11:43 PM

NO WAY that would set me back 20 years. If I have to I'll turn the intake to the rear and solve all of the problems.

Bob

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2004, 11:46 PM

No No.. keep it injected but use the carb intake they sell for them now with 1400cfm throttle blade setup that flows AIR..not fuel. It would REALLY freak people out with the coil on plug and a regular round K+N air cleaner.


B

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 8 2004, 12:02 AM

I thought about a carb set up When I sent a $700 paypal for my HP tuner software.

Bob

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 8 2004, 12:09 AM

GACK. I think I would be loaning it out for a few bucks to some other people who *might* want to tune their Tahoe/Vette/Trans Am/Burb/Truck/Z28...



B

Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 8 2004, 12:42 AM

Visited Renegade during the SEMA on Friday. They have an LS1 at the shop and a Suby STI on order for their next conversions.
Felix

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 8 2004, 12:45 AM

Would both of these be for 914'S ????

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 8 2004, 12:49 AM

How many times did Scott tell us "you cant use a LS1"...


B

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 8 2004, 12:54 AM

It wasn't long ago that he didn't know a LS1 from a LT1.

Bob

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 8 2004, 01:05 AM

Since starting on my LS1 conversion I've found 4 other people with LS1 powered porsches 2 914's and 2 911's with Toyjet having one of each.

Bob

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 8 2004, 01:08 AM

Running/driving cars ??


B

Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 8 2004, 01:13 AM

Maybe he got Kerryitis Anyway, Mike was the one who told me about it. Scott was up "late" the previous night so couldn't make it in the shop by NOON
The SEMA show makes you believe anything is possible...
Felix

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 8 2004, 01:16 AM

All running.......... Toyjet says he has done 2 914's so that makes the total 5. All of the other cars are running. I guess I need to get off my ass and get to work. I plan to drive from Atlanta to the WCC05 in the LS1 car.

No trailer for me.............


Bob

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 8 2004, 01:21 AM

Ahh yes.. Toyjet. Cant stand that hideous wing he devised for the 911 He could have at least tried to use a late model race wing setup...

Just looked at his pics of the 914... he put a friggin L88 corvette scoop on the 914 hood...

Cool to see there is not much effort needed to flip the intake around.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 8 2004, 01:32 AM

I sent him an email inquiring about the "kit" to install a LS1 into the 914. I have a complete "nice" car right now that needs and engine (the little 1.7 gave up)


B

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 8 2004, 01:40 AM

Brad here is one with a flipped intake. What kind of transaxle is this? The people that did this say it is a G50 and also say that they use audi 6SP transaxles. I can't see a starter anywhere???


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Posted by: bondo Nov 8 2004, 01:47 AM

In an LT1 (the engine with the cam driven water pump) the water pump ends up well above the engine shelf. It would be right where you would probably want your shoulder. My solution is to do the electric water pump retrofit to the stock water pump housing, and relocate the whole thing to the front trunk. Haven't done it yet, wish me luck

Posted by: WaltGGB Nov 8 2004, 02:12 AM

Bigkat Bob,

What trans are you using with your LS1? And did you make your own adapter?

I think TOYJET is using 901

Walt

Posted by: Kerrys914 Nov 8 2004, 06:26 AM

BIGKAT_83, let mw know if you do decide to sell some of your parts off. Is this something you would sell early this winter or next year?

Thanks for the help guys,

Since my budget is tight I was actually looking into a used V8. I would like to get a good summer out of the V8 and then rebuild it the following winter to what it should be.

I just received a great e-mail from DH. Very informative and help full. He seems like a great guy.

Cheers

Posted by: 914GT Nov 8 2004, 10:03 AM

Brad, I'm using their http://dedenbear.com/TXTwp.htm#WP3 remote pump. I've got a little more than 1000 miles on it since last May. There is one thing I still need to do to my cooling system. I had drilled a small bleeder hole in my thermostat. I need to take the thermostat out and plug this hole or make it smaller. My engine is now running too cold, like 150-160, with the cooler fall temps. That small hole is bypassing enough water to the radiator that the engine never heats up. The DH pump and the others with the traditional belt-drive pumps have the history and reliability behind them, but this little Dedenbear pump is looking like a winner so far. I'll be the guinea pig on this I guess. That's why I like this stuff so much 'cause it's a chance to experiment and do things a little different. On the other hand, some things you stick with and do like everybody else does.

Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 8 2004, 03:53 PM

There's a 914 V8 (Purple) here running a Meiziere pump successfully for street and track. I found a manufacturer at SEMA that uses a "more reliable" brushless motor http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ElectPump.

I thought the Dedenbear was designed for non-radiator strip cars. I use their fill/expansion tank.
Felix

Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 8 2004, 09:53 PM

My bad, the LS1 is for the 944.
Felix