Hey all -
can someone point me to a good comprehensive build list / budget for a 3.0 conversion on a 1.7L vehicle? It has been pointed out by numerous posters that it is hard to budget for, and that whatever number I choose is going to be too low - but it might be useful for the forum to have a fairly complete "what do you need" list for the inexperienced amongst us - at the LOW end of the range. I realize that for each item if you go nuts and buy new / gold plate the stuff it will be lots more, but in order to get a project on the road at the low end, what am I looking at????.....I'll start (but I envision this in an excel spreadsheet with numbers low/high/ideal next to the items). I'll compile the excel sheet and share with the group when we're done -
2.7 - 3.0 - 3.2L Donor engine - running $4,000 - 5,000 - $10,000
Refurb if needed - $???
CIS brains or Carbs - $???
Clutch - $????
Trans (915?) - $2,000 - 3,000
Engine Tin - $???
Oil Cooling system - cooler and lineset - $1,000
Upgraded CVs - ????
5 Lug rear hubs - ????
5 Lug Fronts w/ brake upgrade - $1,000
Fuel distribution system - $????
What am I missing?
And Andy - how do we share excel files or similar with the group?
Cheers and Happy Holidays everyone - I hope Santa brings us all good Porsche stuff this year!
td
oops, forgot:
engine mounts - $????
Trans mounts - $????
Chassis stiffening - $????
1.) Engine ... your choice .. $2000 - $10K
2.) Engine Mount ... I prefer the RJ weld in ... $525 with hardware (Maddog is a copy and cheaper).
3.) Engine Tin (up to 3.2) .... $450
4.) Oil Tank .. stock $800 - $1200 ... aftermarket aluminum $750 ... Peterson Round $400 (fit in front trunk).
5.) Filler neck for #4 .... $250 or use a 911 setup
6.) Oil console (for filter) .... $50+ (911 setup)
7.) Oil Lines (stock like 914/6) ... $700 ... If you modify for an oil cooler and don't use stock lines, $700 should cover them all.
8.) Heat Exchangers --- stock $800 - $2400 depending upon condition. If you don't need heat, headers are about $450
9.) 911 muffler (early) $600 new ... used $????
10.) 2.0L /4 muffler hanger .... $40 new ... used $???
11.) 911 oil temp / oil pressure gauge ..... $150 +
12.) For CIS you will need the correct fuel pump / fuel accumulator / filter ... Bosch New $600? ... Chinese $70 off eBay. Accumulator ... $200+, Filter ... $125+
13.) Ignition system ... Bosch CDI system (and hopefully you have the engine harness) .... $500
14.) For a carbed system .... Carbs, manifold, linkage, bellcrank on tranny ... $2K
15.) /6 throttle cable ... $60
16.) Add in for additional hoses & such ... $300
17.) Clutch will be stock /4 2.0L up to 2.7L (6 bolt flywheel). Anything after requires modification of the 9 bolt flywheel ... Kennedy Engineering. (Use the stock 914 transmission).
18.) 6 Bolt early 911 flywheel ... $250 new ... $125+ used
Don't think I left anything out .... and none of this addresses the 5 lug conversion, bigger brakes, wheels, chassis stiffening kit (I don't use it ... waste of money on a street machine).
Slits pretty much covered it. Here are a few more items that may come up:
tachometer to match the engine ($50-$200)
oil cooler if running a big six (~400+)
oil line fittings (varires)
wiring harness (varies)
Obviously there are a lot of 'while you are in there' things, like new stainless fuel lines, engine bay seals, block off plates, yada yada.
one more item:
- modified shift bar
and if you are going to include the 5 lug into this list then add the price of wheels, aluminum wheel nuts, shocks, ball joints, tie rods, fresh pads, caliper rebuilds, lines, etc....
Good list, I have a spreadsheet tracking my parts/costs...but since I haven't finished yet I'll wait to post till I find out what I've forgotten about. I always find stuff I need when putting it back together. If you want a copy of my list, PM me and I can e-mail it to you.
In fact, some things I wasn't sure about have been covered above...like the fuel pump/accum/filter for a CIS engine.
Any suggestions for a pump that'll work with CIS and future EFI (so I don't have to buy one later)?
I don't know if I'd worry about the transmission...I'm just keeping my rebuilt ~1k miles ago 901. Wish I had it rebuilt with a TB diff, maybe next time I will.
The only issue with the fuel pump on a CIS car, is that CIS runs at something crazy like 80 PSI, most other FI systems will required less than half that pressure.
THANKS GUYS -
I'll consolidate onto one spreadsheet and share it via Google Drive (Great Idea Rand!).
Once it is on G-drive, anyone can update / revise and it can be a resource for the group.....
yay!
td
OK< I'm ready to publish. If you can see this link - you have access to the spreadsheet. If you make any changes to the thing, please record your changes made, add comments if you wish, and use / share / enjoy.
https://docs.google.com/a/sunreports.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Anp1EPEiMMh2dGoweDVwZjdKQUZYVTl2MDgtLU5iMmc#gid=0
Sorry the link is sooooo long - I cannot find a way to make it shorter so we'll have to suffer.....if you have trouble accessing pls let me know and I'll try to help.
td
As you requested ............
If you did an MSD instead of Bosch ignition - you could split that cost. Don't forget the pressure plate.
You need a rather generous "miscellaneous" line. If I missed it I apologize. Your time obviously is not a line item cost but ask those that have spent a few YEARS doing the conversion - it has to be accounted for. Best option for most enthusiasts is to find a fair priced example and save all that time that you can never, ever get back!
Get a good 3.2. Pay to have a shop check it out and pay a reasonable price for a GOOD 3.2. ($7-8k)
After that, plan another $9k to finish it correctly by a professional or $9k for you to make the mistakes yourself, repay to correct your mistakes, and then, eventually arrive at the finish line.
Smaller engines are pointless because they have substantially fewer hp and cost only a couple of grand less (to accomplish correctly). If you do go small, you can save on an external oil system and custom clutch. A 2.4E is the biggest I go without the external oil system. The 2.4E is a really good engine for a 914, but the chances of finding a used one that doesn't need to be at least topped ($5k) is pretty remote.
Carbs are truly terrible. Get the 3.2 and enjoy digital FI as the factory intended. A stock 3.2 is an absolute joy to drive in any 914. Regardless, get an engine with FI. Any FI is better than carbs.
The 2.4E or S has MFI. MFI pumps are very expensive to repair, so make sure you get a running engine in very good condition.
The 2.7 and 3.0 have CIS. It's a good, reliable system that runs well but has power limitations due to the mild cams that are required to keep the system in tune.
The 3.2 has Motronic. This is basically the progenitor of all modern FI systems. To this day, all Porsches are delivered with FI in the lineage of the original Motronic. Turn the key and go.
.....End of stream-of-consciousness conversion info.........
there is a tank and tin in the classifieds right now
very nice pieces too...
1200 for the tank
800 for the tin
buy Geoge Hussey's book - Auto Atlanta - it tells the whole story
beyond that -
a good rebuilt 915 wil be $2500-3000 - then you have to spend another 4k minimum to make it work in a 914 with a WEVO kit
if ya want a rebuilt, unused, 915 PM me - have it in the barn - $2500 cash takes it today + ship
if ya want a known good '88 3.2 - PM - $6000 at my gate
if ya want a nearly perfect 2.7rs, under 5K miles on it, all set up for 914-6 with PMO webers & sixer headers & everything needed to bolt-in & drive away including complete ign, fuel pump, etc - all ya need except the front mount, - $7500 at my gate - PM me
.
You're in Napa?!?
Why don't you come up the hill and I'll tell you what's what?
KT
The best way to reduce cost and get every part is to do as Tony (cracker) said
Buy completed car some other Sod put together .....if you are he'll bent to use your body.... Switch all out and sell the body
It will have come for free in most cases
Your welcome
SOD
I have created a list of parts for a conversion from -4 to -6
914.doc ( 247k )
Number of downloads: 222
oh sorry it's in German and the pricing is in €.
I have no time today to translate it.
I will do it later next week.
Wilco
Get your ceramic coated 9146 exhaust headers from Msds, inc.
Just ask for your 914world discount ! 818.507.6937
There is a spread sheet of the build of my car that was published in Excellence Magazine and it covers engine and tranny stuff. Look at the last page of the article.
It is on-line at http://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/193/articles/project-914-36-part-18#.UNd0mbZyVK8
here the content
Materialliste für den Umbau von
914-4 zu 914-6
(Vergasermotor ohne Zusatzölkühler)
1.) 6 Zylindermotor 3500€ - nach oben offen
2.) Motorhalter (Karosserie u. Motor) 800€ - 1500€
3.) Motorverblechung 600€ - 1200€
4.) Öltank 800€ - 2200€
5.) Einfüllstutzen f. Öltank 50€ - 150€
6.) Ölfilterkonsole 30€ - 100€
7.) Ölleitungen (alle) 500€ - 700€
8.) Wärmetauscher 500€ - 2500€
9.) Endtopf 100€ - 500€
10.) Auspuffhalter 2.0 10€ - 50€
11.) 911 Öldruck-/Temperaturanzeige 0€ - 250€
12.) Motorkabelbaum -6 100€ - 300€
13.) HKZ 150€ - 300€
14.) Umlenkungen/Gasgestänge 100€-200€
15.) Gaszug -6 70€
16.) Benzinpumpe (neu) 150€ - 600€
17.) Schwungscheibe -6 100€ - 600€
18.) Fahrwerk vorn (komplett 911) 500€ - 1500€
19.) Fahrwerk hinten (-4 Zangen) 400€ - 800€
20.) Felgen/Reifen 600€ - 3000€
21.) Sonstiges 200€ - 600€
22.) Eintragungen 600€
Zusatzkosten für den Motorenumbau von Einspritzer auf Vergaser
1.) Ansaugbrücken 100€ - 250€
2.) Vergaser (40er) 500€ - 1500€
3.) Zwischenplatten 80€ (bei Umbau von K-Jetronic)
4.) Dichtungen 60€
5.) Benzinpumpe 150€ - 600€
6.) Vergaserüberholung 800€ - 1000€ (Eventualposition)
7.) Einstellung auf Rollenprüfstand 600€ - 800€
Zusatzkosten für den Motorenumbau mit Frontölkühler
1.) Thermostat 200€ - 1200€
2.) Ölkühler 100€ - 1000€
3.) Leitungen 300€ - 600€
4.) Kühlerkasten 350€ - 800€
5.) Frontstoßstange/-Wanne (GT) 500€
Zusatzkosten für den Motorenumbau incl. 915 Getriebe
mit mechanischem Tachoantrieb
1.) 915-Getriebe 1300€ - 1500€
2.) Getriebeüberholung 2100€ - 3000€ (Eventualposition)
3.) 916 Kit (Bott Fahrzeugtechnik) 2890€
4.) Kupplungsseilumlenkung 100€-150€
5.) 915 Schaltbock 150€ - 250€
6.) Sonstiges 200€ - 300€
Quick Google translation
Materials for the conversion from 914-4 to 914-6
(Carbureted engine without additional oil cooler)
1) 6 cylinder engine € 3500 - open up
2) Engine Mount (body and engine) 800 € - 1500 €
3) Motorverblechung € 600 - € 1200
4) Oil tank € 800 - € 2200
5) Oil tank filler neck f € 50 - € 150
6) oil filter bracket 30 € -100 €
7) Oil lines (all) 500 € - 700 €
8) heat exchanger € 500 - € 2500
9) Silencer € 100 - € 500
10) Exhaust Hanger € 2.0 10 - 50 €
11) 911 Öldruck-/Temperaturanzeige € 0 - € 250
12) engine harness € -6 100 - € 300
13) HKZ € 150 - € 300
14) diversion / throttle linkage € 100 € -200
15) Throttle cable -6 € 70
16) fuel pump (new) 150 € - 600 €
17) flywheel € -6 100 - 600 €
18) Front Suspension € (complete 911) 500 - 1500 €
19) Rear Suspension) (-4 capliers) € 400 - € 800
20) Wheels / Tyres € 600 - € 3000
21) Other € 200 - € 600
22) € 600 entries (German law)
Additional costs for the engine conversion from injection to carburetor
1) Ansaugbrücken € 100 - € 250
2) Carburetor (40) € 500 - € 1500
3) intermediate plates 80 € (for conversion of K-Jetronic)
4) seals € 60
5) Petrol pump € 150 - € 600
6) Carburetor Overhaul € 800 - € 1000 (optional item)
7) setting on dynamometer 600 € - 800 €
Additional costs for the engine conversion with front oil cooler
1) thermostat € 200 - € 1200
2) Oil cooler € 100 - € 1000
3) Lines € 300 - € 600
4) Cooler Box € 350 - € 800
5) front bumper / diffuser (GT) 500 €
Additional costs for the engine conversion including 915 transmission
with mechanical speedometer
1) 915-gearbox € 1300 - 1500 €
2) Transmission overhaul € 2100 - € 3000 (optional item)
3) 916 kit (Bott vehicle technology) 2890 €
4) clutch cable guide € 100 € -150
5) 915 switching buck € 150 - € 250
6) Other € 200 - 300 €
During reconstruction with an electronic tachometer there are additional costs.
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