Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 10:57 AM

Like I need another project... Beginning to be as bad as Dr Evil ... ...

I need some TB's for my 914/4 type 4 into bug project engine.
Jenvey, Extrudabody and TWM TB's are crazy frickin' expensive for what they are, so I'm going the Motorcycle TB route.

This is what came in the mail today, stuff looks real good


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 11:01 AM

Damn... you think they would get the spacing correct

80mm center to center spacing..... I need 90mm....


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 11:07 AM

The bike injectors are shorter and I don't know if the fuel rails have enough meat to be cut an tapped for pipe threads.

The seals area bit different as well but think it's workable.

The bike injectors are only 22lbs the black injectors are 50lbs


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 11:09 AM

Take them all apart and i have 4 separate ITB's


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 11:13 AM

Going to take a bit of but I'm thinking these are going to work out beauty.


.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 11:24 AM

Going to take me a little bit to get going on this, my 914 is also getting a 3.0 /6 at the same time, so I'm bleeding money....but I try to update as do.

Debating on should I make adaptors or just machine the CB manifolds and JB weld the TB's in place. The JB weld method would save a lot of fab time.
I also should match port the funky bottoms on those TB's.

Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2013, 11:35 AM

You should get a set of these:





That way, you can run the big injectors where they should be, close to the intake valve, and use the TBs to regulate the air.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 11:41 AM

You want to sell those?

Maybe... I will but for now I think I'll just take the simple route.
I'm trying to shake off the DWD and get my projects done. I can fine tune the details each winter after that.

Posted by: worn May 10 2013, 11:43 AM

What did the TBs come off of? I have pondered this for my TR6.

Posted by: Randal May 10 2013, 12:18 PM

Mike Mueller was messing with bike TB's years ago. He went through the whole process which can be see on the link below. I, on the other hand I ended up going the TWM route as their TB fit a Weber type manifold and I had way to many "projects" on my engine.

You can probably contact Mike somewhere on this site or the club site.

OK found the link: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=23965&hl=motorcycle+TB%27s

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 12:27 PM

Well I have at least 40hrs and this is my 3rd set of TB's into the research on this, so I'm not going to tell you what exact make and model.
Google is your friend and the truth is out there.

Looking like I might also build a few sets this winter to sell ...maybe...if I don't I'll tell all...sneak peek


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Dr Evil May 10 2013, 02:32 PM

This is a project I want to do in the future as well

Posted by: bulitt May 10 2013, 02:44 PM

Maybe you should just bore the manifolds so the TB recess in the bores, then drill and tap for two hold down screws/tabs for each TB. Looks like there is a recess for o-ring around base of each TB ?

Posted by: Dr Evil May 10 2013, 02:47 PM

Or mill of the flange of the manifolds and use a rubber coupler like the bikes do

Posted by: Phoenix-MN May 10 2013, 03:53 PM

Boy, EFI ITB's is like a sickness. I started my project for my "Tail Dragger" a month or so ago with Suzuki GSX R600 ITB's. Lot's of threads on the Bird Board. I used the stock rubber couplers and redrilled the mounting holes on the manifolds.

Posted by: rick 918-S May 10 2013, 05:05 PM

Lots of chatter about ITB's. I'm researching a fuel management that you can apply instead of building on from scratch. I'm hoping to find something to tweek. Why reinvent the wheel. Lots of cars and bikes are running injection. Just take something that the OEM developed and is currently in use and tune it.

Posted by: Randal May 10 2013, 05:06 PM

Mike Mueller actually did this. Check out the link in my post.

Posted by: kevin311 May 10 2013, 07:07 PM

What size engine are these going on? What are the throat sizes on them? What are you using to control them?
I'm doing something similar with VFR800 ITBs.
I really like how those come apart. The VFRs are 2 two-barrel castings.
I'll be following this one.



1.7 with VFR800 tbs (work in progress)
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=192548

Posted by: Elliot Cannon May 10 2013, 07:09 PM

What will be used to trigger the injectors?

Posted by: kg6dxn May 10 2013, 07:21 PM

You need some of these...



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bikers-Choice-2-Bolt-Manifold-Adapter-Harley-Davidson-/390591468228?hash=item5af110d2c4&item=390591468228&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Posted by: Phoenix-MN May 10 2013, 08:14 PM

Mine are going on a 2.5L six and I'm using a Holley HP EFI ecu with crank fired ignition. The throat size on the GSX R600's is 38mm. My carbs are currently using 32mm venturies so 38's should be in the ball park.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 10 2013, 08:18 PM

I already have the SDS-4F system, I ran it single TB modified D-jet plenum for several years in my 914. this time it's a much bigger engine and the upright conversion for the bug.

I'm leaning towards milling it in and match porting as much as possible, I don't care for the adaptors much.

Posted by: rick 918-S May 10 2013, 08:37 PM

The rubber connector on my set have the depression to match the TB. Also the exiting side to the engine is a slight oval likely designed to help with reversion at the head.

Posted by: McMark May 10 2013, 09:29 PM

Just got a sextet of ITBs for my new 2.4 engine. I'm thinking about welding adapters so they bolt directly onto the heads.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 11 2013, 06:04 AM

Wouldn't the TB's warp? and would you real need to do this?

One thing I notice is although there's meat at the flange the TB castings are very thin.

Posted by: crash914 May 11 2013, 08:00 AM

Just get Evil to weld you up some manifolds like he did for his bus....

Posted by: rick 918-S May 11 2013, 08:04 AM

Cast aluminum sometimes is tricky to weld. I've had issues with it kind of bleeding contamination. I've had to stop and clean the parts as I go. Otherwise I think if the flange isn't too thick Mark could weld the TB's to a flange or shortened intake. I would try to make the welds tiny. If you were in doubt You could always weld the inside seam also.

Posted by: McMark May 11 2013, 10:24 AM

Came to my senses a little bit. Ordered one of the stock plastic/rubber boots to try. If these work, I'll just use them instead. Welded on flanges would be cool, but the cost to produce the pieces I need (custom) and then the effort to weld them on is more than is really worth it unless I have no other option.

Warping may be an issue, but for $25 for three throttle bodies, I'd be willing to try it.

Posted by: r_towle May 11 2013, 07:28 PM

I love the title of the thread.....just cause its so true.

I would love to see one of these project done to completion.

Rich

Posted by: JamesM May 12 2013, 09:01 AM

How come no one ever brings up the CB Performance TBs, looks like they are making the 40s again.

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=7097

Sure used bike TBs are still cheaper but the CB setup is still pretty cheap, and when you consder the time it takes to hack together the bike TBs just to wind up with what is still a hacked together solution it does not add up. For $500 bucks the CB parts bolt on, my time is worth more then that.

Of course if you are doing it for the fun of the build, then it is a different story.

Posted by: McMark May 12 2013, 10:02 AM

Sorry if we've totally you Mark.

Pic of my TBs.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: stugray May 12 2013, 12:00 PM

98, 99 Suzuki GSXR 750.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/98-99-suzuki-gsxr750-gsxr-750-throttle-body-/110850134032
~$180 Google IS your friend.

And it looks like only one of the four has the TPS.
Will you put one of the TPS on each side, or depend on the linkage to keep them synched?

Stu

Posted by: sixnotfour May 12 2013, 12:50 PM

Mcmark, I have the same ones, get to it x2=$$

Posted by: Mark Henry May 12 2013, 04:12 PM

It's OK

I thought about do this on my 914/6 conversion as well, But I already have the Webers
I would have used Triumph TB's , what ones are those?

Posted by: McMark May 12 2013, 08:50 PM

Polaris 650 TBs. I'm reconsidering since they're 46mm, which is huge for a 2.4. But I might just strive ahead and if they're too big just sell the setup to a 3.2 owner.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 15 2013, 02:31 PM

I didn't like the funky shape on the bottom of the TB so I did some profiling today.

Original shape is top right TB.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 15 2013, 02:34 PM

Send those to Evil... he can weld them up for ya!

Posted by: Dr Evil May 15 2013, 07:48 PM

Nope, I am out of argon........prick.

Posted by: MDG May 16 2013, 08:50 AM

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 21 2013, 07:38 PM

I was making good progress, but work got in the way. Now I'm hoping to have both my bug and 914/6 project done for the spring. But I do have several jobs for others that have to be done as well.

This is my progress on my ITB project. this was originally for my 914 but now it's going in my 67 bug.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 21 2013, 07:40 PM

ITB without filters


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 21 2013, 07:41 PM

ITB with filters


Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 21 2013, 07:46 PM

down the throat.

I am having issues with clearance of the fuel rail on the 1/2 side in the bug conversion. Most likely I'll have to cut a hole on the inner fender to clear it. then I'll have to make something to clear it.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: r_towle Nov 21 2013, 08:50 PM

Flip them, put the rail in the inside

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 21 2013, 09:50 PM

You really think I didn't try that?
VW bug conversion...upright fan shroud in the way.

It's been almost 2 months, so I looked at this again.
Could I make it work flipping it around? Maybe, but I'd have to scrap the filter base and re-design it and then scrap the manifold or weld it up and re machine it.
It's easier to re-deign (reprofile) the rail, the only part interfering and cut an access hole. The hole would only be under the fender and I can make a cover for it.

Posted by: Dr Evil Nov 21 2013, 10:15 PM

Mark, you need to place them so that air will past THROUGH them and into the engine, preferably to the intake part of the head. You can identify this by it being on top of the engine

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 21 2013, 10:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k

Posted by: gereed75 Nov 26 2013, 10:13 PM

Mark, Have you seen this - vwmegasquirt.tk and there is a guy out there named supaninjanick with a blog who has done this on a type 4 in a notchback using CBR 600 ITB's Cool project

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 27 2013, 04:32 AM

Looks good.
I looked at using the cut off stock manifold but the bung is in the wrong place for a bug conversion, it would/could work in the type 3/4 or 914. In the bug conversion the engine surround (car bodywork) gets in the way.

Posted by: kevin311 Nov 27 2013, 06:09 AM

Please finish this!! For all of us that started and never finished.
My ITB project had to be sidelined so im glad there is someone else attempting it.

Good luck and keep us updated

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 27 2013, 09:14 AM

I'll keep working it but it might be spring by the time it's done.

I used some scrap wood to make a stand so I can work on them a bit more hands free.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 27 2013, 09:23 AM

I did some re-profiling on the 1/2 side fuel rail for clearance.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: r_towle Feb 3 2014, 07:52 PM

Not sure how it's going....

But....

Have you considered bolting those throttle bodies directly to the head....?

What is the downside of moving the throttle plate that close to the valve?

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 4 2014, 09:04 AM

Ya, what about cutting down the intakes?

Posted by: rdauenhauer Feb 4 2014, 09:08 AM

Question: is it better to have the injector nozzels High on the intake as with these TB's atop the intake runners or low nearer the port mouth like the OE intakes ?

Posted by: TeenerTim Feb 4 2014, 04:07 PM

Always better to be close to the port. The atomized fuel has less of a chance to condense into droplets. It also provides better throttle response and low end performance. Think about driving a car with a tunnel ram intake. It takes time for the air to reach a good velocity so there is a huge lag. Not a problem if you are drag racing and dumping the clutch with a wide open throttle.

Edit: This is still much better than the single plenum and long runners of the stock type 4.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 4 2014, 04:42 PM

Also depends what you are going for, maybe emissions, but really on our cars I doubt if it makes a lot of difference.

BTW also note that mine are going into a VW bug, there is absolutely no way of getting the injector closer to the stock location without cutting up the engine metal surround.
Not going to happen.

Posted by: r_towle Feb 6 2014, 09:22 AM

Are you doing ITB's on the six you are building.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 6 2014, 11:17 AM

No, at least for now, I have Webers for the /6.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 14 2014, 11:24 AM

It's alive


Attached image(s)

Posted by: SirAndy May 14 2014, 11:48 AM

Posted by: Moneypit May 14 2014, 01:04 PM

Pardon my noobiness, but as I understand this, using ITBs such as these let you get some of that sweet 44IDF style induction sound, but with the power/tunability of FI ala Megasquirt or something, right? Or is there more that I am missing like a MAF, TPS, etc?

Posted by: Mark Henry May 14 2014, 08:28 PM

More than just the sound, on an engine my size (102mmX 78mm) it's a major power boost.
My system is SDS but it would work on most aftermarket EFI like MS. Yes it has MPS, TPS and crankfire ignition, etc.

Posted by: crash914 May 15 2014, 02:52 AM

Looks good Mark...very similar to my motor...103 x 80. I just finished the first full throttle runs and tuning last night...what a sound at full throttle! Scary fast...I think you will be pulling the front wheels at launch....enjoy!

Posted by: bulitt May 15 2014, 05:04 AM

Wow

Posted by: MrHyde May 15 2014, 06:14 AM

Awesome Mark !!! I'm gonna have to come up and have a lookie.. And I agree with the wheelie bar comment.. might be needing that. :-)

Posted by: rhodyguy May 15 2014, 07:39 AM

the fuch wheels look sharp on your t1.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 15 2014, 08:23 AM

I don't think it will need wheelie bars, she's designed to run flat and fast. It has 195's street tires on the rears, pretty sure they would break loose first.

The transmission is not built for drag racing, it's a 901-911 5-speed with stock 914 gearing. I'm using a Weltmeister short shift plate and all my bushings are new, but I can't believe how smooth it's shifting.
Very short throw. Fresh rebuilt at the clinic last year.
Real nice going down the 401 highway at 80mph and 3000RPM

Took a bit to sort through linkage and TB sync but I'm 95% there on that.
Still sorting though the SDS EFI mapping, it runs real smooth but I still have to tweak the mix knob for hard acceleration.
Engine temps look good but running really cool on the heads, That might be the nickies.
My injectors may be a bit too big at 55lbs (Siemans Deca) running only 15% duty cycle at cruise and don't even hit over 50% at full loud pedal. But it seems to run smooth
Lots of power for sure.

Posted by: Qarl May 15 2014, 08:24 AM

Post a video of it running... (and some throttle blips).!!!!

Pretty please

Posted by: Moneypit May 15 2014, 09:05 AM

This is now relevant to my interests... I have carb cams but didn't want to ditch the IDFs because I love the sound, but I'm going to be watching this with great interest if it is something that could someday be "templatized".

Would anyone consider making some diagrams or templates for any parts that would need to be fabbed? I was thinking that if I ever do go down this road, it would be neat if I could print off plans for any brackets, adapters, and linkage bits I'd need, as a good friend of ours works in welding and fabrication. I'd also like to see the nitty gritty of getting this type of setup to work with Megasquirt, such as how the TPS, MAF, and all the other sensors needed would be set up.

Posted by: Mark Henry May 15 2014, 10:52 AM

Everything on this build is custom, between the engine and the car I'm betting 1500 hours.
Your friend is either going to bail on you, hate you or start charging you money.

I'm guessing, but I have at least 120 hours in the TB's alone. I didn't make templates.
At first things went fast enough that I thought about making and selling a few sets, but I think know it's not worth it.

Posted by: Moneypit May 15 2014, 11:41 AM

If anything my Friend would show me how to do things, not just do all the work. If I discover things deeply out of my pay grade I'd pay him. That, and there's a pretty solid welding/fabbing/machining presence up in this area. If I gan get back into 3d design stuff like CAD (used to use 3DS Max for game models), maybe someone can print them out on a 3d printer. If everything mates properly, then CNC out of aluminum?

I figure this all would involve a lot of machining, especially in trying to get the TBs to align with and mate to the intakes, and especially getting the linkages sorted out! Then of course there's the fuel rails that would need to be correct for the TB's spacing, am I right? I see the issue of having to fab everything up.

In terms of the linkages, is it extremely complicated getting each pair of TBs slaved to each other? I was trying to think if you could rig up a system similar to Tangerine's pulley/slave style and have a TPS on the "master" TB?

Posted by: crash914 May 15 2014, 11:48 AM

Mark, I am using 30# per hour injectors in mine...max out at 85% duty cycle...like you said, most of the time the duration of squirt is very small...

My motor is megasquirt...the linkage I am using now is Chris's cable linkage...a little touchy to set up but a big improvement over the hex bar..

Throttle bodies are readily available TWM, Jenvey or Weber....

Posted by: Mark Henry May 15 2014, 03:01 PM

If you're paying just go for the Weber Or CB TB's, they are a bolt on.

Basically I made everything, saved me a boatload of coin, but that's not counting the time.
$80 for the TB's (ebay), the manifolds were free, $48 for the linkage ends (FLAPs) and $50 for the air filter assemblies (cip1) and $50 for the injectors (ebay).
Say about $100 for FI hose, clamps and fittings, etc.
Pump is from a VW van, the oil filled pump pressure gauge cost me $15
Most of the rest I had kicking around (just taking about the intake here).

I bought the SDS almost 10 years ago it had the TPS, MAP, etc.
The O2 meter is about 6 years old I've used it on many cars.