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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Modern Programable T4 ITB Injection
Posted by: DBCooper Jun 7 2013, 08:00 AM
From Mario at thedubshop.net:
And:
And CB ITB's:
He's done some good work for my son's turbo-Subaru bug. I don't know cost or anything, just noticed those while looking for some other things.
Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 7 2013, 08:11 AM
my guess is painfully expensive.
Posted by: nathansnathan Jun 7 2013, 08:24 AM
From Mario at thedubshop.net:
And:
That is cool. It must be new because I don't remember their having an option for a 36-1 trigger wheel when I started my edis project back in February. I had to fab my own bracket and modify a stock trigger wheel.
I wonder where that sensor mount is supposed to go? It looks like maybe off the fan housing. I wonder if you have to make holes or if there is any adjustability. Mine is still a work in progress. I am thinking of trying it in gimp mode this weekend. Got to wire keyed power, ground, and put new plugs with the nubbies for the wires I custom crimped, start it up in limp home mode I hope.
no hijack intended 
Posted by: wndsrfr Jun 7 2013, 08:30 AM
Did a wideband A/FR come with the kit also or do you already have one installed.....it will be your best friend for tuning so make sure it's healthy! Keep us posted--tuning is a real brain exercise...
Posted by: r_towle Jun 7 2013, 08:50 AM
get him on this forum...get him hearing the Type4 issues.
Maybe he has a solution.
A bolt on kit would be my preference, with maps that will get the motor started enough to get it to a dyno...
I have a question.
In this type of system, how is air measured?
How radical of a camshaft could be introduced?
Rich
Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 7 2013, 09:18 AM
get him on this forum...get him hearing the Type4 issues.
Maybe he has a solution.
A bolt on kit would be my preference, with maps that will get the motor started enough to get it to a dyno...
I have a question.
In this type of system, how is air measured?
How radical of a camshaft could be introduced?
Rich
It's a microsquirt an off shoot of megasquirt, pretty well the same thing. He's just putting components together in a kit form.
This guy is out of the UK and has been doing it quite a while, my guess is this stuff does fit a pancake engine fan. You still have to remove the engine, etc.
As far as a MAP goes one could figure out a ballpark MAP, but you would still need to tune with a WB and most likely dyno time.
No free lunch on that, a SDS system will save you the dyno time, but you pay for the pro built system.
I'd say McMark can put together a similar package for you.
Posted by: nathansnathan Jun 7 2013, 09:23 AM
The bolt pattern is definitely for the fan, to fit where an air conditioner pulley would, but it may not fit with stock cooling - a lot of the type 4 builds I have seen had to be upright conversion cooling, that's how most people do it.
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jun 7 2013, 09:40 AM
Those intakes and throttle bodies are CB Performance units. Don't know about everything else.
Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 11:10 AM
He has for a couple years. Only with a trigger setup that's less complicated and can be installed in the car. With a wiring harness that's actually plug and play. With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
I'm sure they're stuff will work, but it's by no means a finished and ready to install setup.
Posted by: nathansnathan Jun 7 2013, 11:16 AM
He has for a couple years. Only with a trigger setup that's less complicated and can be installed in the car. With a wiring harness that's actually plug and play. With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
I'm sure they're stuff will work, but it's by no means a finished and ready to install setup.
-If you're cool enough for him to answer your pm's.
Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 11:27 AM
Posted by: nathansnathan Jun 7 2013, 11:38 AM
It's all good. I needed a 36-1 wheel and some adjustability on the angle to do edis. Megasquirt is more flexible that way, where you can compensate for anything in the software.
Posted by: worn Jun 7 2013, 12:56 PM
How did you get that photo angle? Edit. No wait, what am I looking at in the first place. Out of my league here (common).
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Jun 7 2013, 01:08 PM
How did you get that photo angle? Edit. No wait, what am I looking at in the first place. Out of my league here (common).
VW Bus engine bay.
Source: grew up sticking my head in there many times while dad cussed at me from below while we swapped out engine after engine in his bus.
Posted by: DNHunt Jun 7 2013, 01:11 PM
It's hard for me to tell but, if that bracket for the hall sensor is going between the case and the fan shroud there will be some machining needed on the shroud or it will sit wrong. I had to take about an eighth off 2 of the bosses on the fan shroud to mount my sensor.
Dave
Posted by: nathansnathan Jun 7 2013, 02:07 PM
How did you get that photo angle? Edit. No wait, what am I looking at in the first place. Out of my league here (common).
hehe
Posted by: DBCooper Jun 7 2013, 02:11 PM
Somebody said he's in Great Britain, no. There may be an English company with that same name, I don't know, but this guy is Monroe, WA, just north of Seattle.
Like I said, he was recommended to my son by DIY Autotune, who are long-time reputable, and he did good, fast, and reasonable work. I don't know a lot more than that, but I did send him a link to this thread so he's aware of 914 interest. If you want to contact him directly try The Dub Shop on Facebook, www.thedubshop.net, (206) 414-8456, or e-mail mario@thedubshop.net. He's been doing this part time for a while, just opened this company early this year to do it full time. He assembles Micro and Megasuirts, modifies them according to customer needs, makes harnesses, and sells parts and complete kits for VW A/C engines.
Posted by: r_towle Jun 7 2013, 06:30 PM
Micro, mega, macro squirts......how is air measured?
Posted by: DBCooper Jun 7 2013, 07:25 PM
You'll have to ask him about that. MAP is built in to the boards, I know, but Megasquirt can be configured any way you want it, using any kind of MAF sensor you want to choose. Try http://www.msefi.com and all your questions will be answered... plus about a million you never thought to ask.
Posted by: Matt Romanowski Jun 7 2013, 08:26 PM
With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?
Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 09:01 PM
With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?
Bold added for emphasis.
Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 09:04 PM
You'll have to ask him about that. MAP is built in to the boards, I know, but Megasquirt can be configured any way you want it, using any kind of MAF sensor you want to choose. Try http://www.msefi.com and all your questions will be answered... plus about a million you never thought to ask.
Microsquirt doesn't have a built in MAP sensor. But I'd wager on an external MAP sensor. It's the easiest to set up. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a TPS involved, but usually it's pretty much ignored unless you have a wild cam at idle.
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 7 2013, 09:44 PM
Hey guys, guess I'll chime in
I've only recently played with the Microquirts. My goto is an MS2 V3. The Microsquirt is a great little ECU but it is limited in features for anything over stock. For example, you cannot run a boost control and an idle valve. And if you want Barometric correction you can't do launch control.
Here is my 1600dp beetle with a Microsquirt installed. I dynoed it not to long ago and got 60hp and 87ft/lbs out of it.
To answer some questions on the T4 trigger wheel, here are a couple pics of it mounted up. 
And thanks for requesting my presence!
Posted by: DBCooper Jun 7 2013, 09:55 PM
With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?
Bold added for emphasis.
But when you're converting to ITB's and using aftermarket EFI is "look right" really significant any more?
Microsquirt doesn't have a built in MAP sensor.
True... but I was talking about Megasquirt, not Microsquirt. I posted the photo of the Microsquirt just because I think they're cool, but the system most people use is the Megasquirt, much more capable.
Posted by: DBCooper Jun 7 2013, 10:10 PM
Thanks for dropping by, Mario. Parts are getting harder to find, harnesses are getting old and unreliable, so there's always been interest in more modern alternatives to the stock 914 fuel injection. It's not much different than the bus T4's in that respect, so could you give us an indication of the cost of a plug-and-play system using as many of the 914 components as possible, and what that would include? And for the performance people that same or a similar setup using those CB throttle bodies? Everyone has a different situation and different wants and needs, so I know it varies a lot, but just a base system, whatever configuration you'd suggest so we could have a ballpark idea of cost. Thanks again.
Posted by: RonW Jun 7 2013, 10:20 PM
Not that I have many posts on here but thought I'd post up. I've had a LOT of experience working with Mario and he is a stand up guy and puts out a great product. He helped me with my prior motors EFI set up with:
MS3, MS3x, dual Jenvey's, LC-1 running sequential fuel and sequential COP on my 2270. datalogging and helping me fine tune. even track side, id datalog, email and he'd send me back updated files before the next session. im currently in the processes of helping a buddy do an MS3+kit mario put together for a 74 RSR clone 3.2L six. If my stock STi ecu didnt run so damn well, i'd have another one of his kits on this too.
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Jun 7 2013, 10:24 PM
Mario; Thanks for coming over to the dark side.
I have seen that 36-1 wheel, bracket and sensor (btw, its a hall sensor, so you don't have all the noise/interference/shielding issues that the VR sensors have). It's a really nice product that fits and works like it should. Does it really matter what a sensor looks like?? Where its located, you couldn't see it unless you had your car on a lift w/ the oil filter removed. . .
Thankfully, Mario is my local MS guy who I will be working with for my up-coming engine upgrade in my shop car. He, like many others on here, is a member vendor that is a pleasure to work with and is furthering the community with innovation.
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 7 2013, 11:59 PM
That is also correct, the Microsquirt does not carry an internal MAP like it's big brother. Another reason the MS2 V3 is my goto.
I disagree on the external MAP being easier to set up. It adds wiring, and if you want barometric correction for spirited mountain driving you need 2. Adding more wiring. On the V3 board you just add the MapDaddy sensor and call it a day. Using the same singe vacuum line that is going to the ECU.
TPS isn't necessary with Speed Density fueling using a map sensor, but it sure helps with acceleration enrichment. I've always had a hard time getting reliable acceleration enrichment's just using engine vacuum variation. Not that is can't be done...
TPS data in a log is invaluable IMHO, it really tells you what the driver is trying to accomplish during the drive.
Posted by: McMark Jun 8 2013, 12:06 AM
Its easiest to set up meaning MAP vs. AlphaN vs. MAF.
Posted by: nathansnathan Jun 8 2013, 02:48 AM
To answer some questions on the T4 trigger wheel, here are a couple pics of it mounted up.
Ah, cool. I pictured the sensor pointing the other way with the bracket mounted to the fan housing. It is nice that you don't have to irreversibly modify any stock parts to mount it. Nice design there, making it span to the upper bolt, I know how tight space is in there.
Posted by: jd74914 Jun 8 2013, 07:28 AM
Its easiest to set up meaning MAP vs. AlphaN vs. MAF.
They all have their own places.
On some high-revving quick transient motors (ie: Japanese sport bike motors), with ITBs, Alpha-N (TPS) can sometime be easier to set up. In fact, I know that the OEM Suzuki GSX-R ECMs are Alpha-N-based with extensive corrections. Note that these are nothing similar to Megasquirts or most non-F1-grade aftermarket ECUs; they have 3-4 fuel and spark maps for each gear!
People sometimes like Alpha-N better for intake restricted motors (think Nascar, FSAE, etc.). Obviously, neither are really akin to Type IVs. I think that Alpha-N is a bit finicky to tune unless you have really, really good temperature and pressure corrections. They are also super sensitive to changes in throttle position sensor slippage (Don't ever use a plastic bolt to hold on your TPS!). Personally, I've never been a big fan, but they do have their place.
Speed density (MAP) systems are pretty robust. I've had good luck with them on some fast motors as well with good TPS-based enrichment functions. They are often pretty easy to tune, though again like Alpha-N are sensitive to changes in engine specification.
MAF setups are most robust to system design changes like differing intake manifolds or headers, assuming the MAF sensor doesn't break (they can be a bit fragile), and their isn't too much intake reversion (often this can be cancelled with a good Helmholtz resonator). I've never tuned one since my experience has only been with small motors (sub-1000cc so too small for commercially available MAFs), but they should be the easiest to tune. Note that you still need to do extensive tweaking on the acceleration enrichment to prevent stuff like tip-in bucking. This is because there can be something of a "long" time constant for intakes meaning that your sensor won't see manifold changes super fast. Once again, this is where a good TPS-based enrichment helps.
------------
On another note, Mario's stuff looks awesome and is quite well priced. We actually talked last week about the trigger wheel setup. He responds super fast to questions and seems like a really nice guy.
For what it's worth, I'm putting an MS3 on my car and have access to lots of machines so I can pretty much make anything, and I'm planning on buying Mario's setup when it comes to market in a few weeks.
-----------
OK, enough writing from me for now. I've got to get back to work rebuilding a Stuska dyno.
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 19 2013, 12:02 PM
So here is a kit I just got done with that you guys would be interested in. It's going on a T4 2.0L in a bus. He wanted dual ITB's with crank trigger and direct coil control i.e. no EDIS module! Who wants an extra box inline with you these days to go bad, add to the wiring and give up spark cut? I don't. I did use them for a few years but have gotten over it. And those proprietary plug wires are prone to breakage. HEI ends are the way to go. They are available anywhere.
The only think not pictured is linkage. He has a set of sync links he is going to use.
Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 19 2013, 02:00 PM
What does a kit like that cost? I'd like to set something up like that at the end of this summer.
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 19 2013, 02:35 PM
My ITB kits start at $2500 without ignition control, but it includes wire harness, relay board, fuel system and wideband 02 sensor. Ignition adds around $500 for coil, wires, crank trigger and sensor, plus ECU mods. This is all bases on a MS2 V3 board so you are not feature limited. You can use that as a guide on which way you want to go, then we can tailor the package any way you need. I build everything to order so I have no problems substituting parts, adding or subtracting.
Feel free to PM or email anytime if you have questions
Mario@thedubshop.net
Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 19 2013, 02:41 PM
Thanks.
Posted by: rwilner Jun 19 2013, 07:48 PM
Check out the microsquirt install in my signature. IMO, mcmark makes about the closest you can hope to get for a plug and play type 4 ms system.
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 19 2013, 08:17 PM
Cool!
I do a Microsquirt based plug and play version for the Type 1. For Type 4 a few lengths would need to be changed. That is something I can work out with Aircooledtechguy over at his shop.
Then again, you said it yourself. McMarc uses his kits on his own installs and doesn't cater to the DIY guys, I do. It's just another options for the guys that are not local to him and able to just drop their car off.
Posted by: McMark Jun 19 2013, 11:49 PM
Not sure where you got that. I've sold three to DIY guys and installed one (plus my own).
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 20 2013, 12:02 AM
Not sure where you got that. I've sold three to DIY guys and installed one (plus my own).
That's just what I've heard, and that's what I took from this
The system I'm installing was engineered and supplied 100% by McMark. My understanding is that he usually provides these systems for motors that he builds, but I talked him into providing one for me
Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 20 2013, 12:06 PM
McMark, do you have an available kit for ITB's? My car didn't come with any of the stock intake parts, and I'm not real eager to source them.
Posted by: McMark Jun 20 2013, 01:54 PM
Sure. Just have to change a few wire lengths on the harness. Not a biggie. If you've got a stock sized engine, stoke intake parts will be FAR cheaper to source though. And the single throttle body makes tuning easier because you'll still have to synch ITB, just like carbs.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 20 2013, 01:59 PM
Sure. Just have to change a few wire lengths on the harness. Not a biggie. If you've got a stock sized engine, stoke intake parts will be FAR cheaper to source though. And the single throttle body makes tuning easier because you'll still have to synch ITB, just like carbs.
I did this on my SDS with a 2.0 d-jet bits on my 1.8 (w/cut down runners) and then on a 2.0.
Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 20 2013, 02:01 PM
Possibly, but my long term goal is to continue using the system after I build up a bigger motor.
Something that stock runners may not handle
Posted by: Mark Henry Jun 20 2013, 02:06 PM
Ok.... but stock TB plenum and runners can be had for dirt cheap. Plus it gets you running while you build the big engine.
Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 20 2013, 03:39 PM
I'm not worried too much about cheap. I already have carbs on the car and it's my DD.
I'll buy the throttle bodies and the rest of the kit when the money is ready, and I will pull the car off the road and install everything at once.
Thanks for the help.
Posted by: rwilner Jun 20 2013, 05:15 PM
Not sure where you got that. I've sold three to DIY guys and installed one (plus my own).
That's just what I've heard, and that's what I took from this
The system I'm installing was engineered and supplied 100% by McMark. My understanding is that he usually provides these systems for motors that he builds, but I talked him into providing one for me
Mario,
You setup looks very nice and looks to be built to a high standard.
But Since I'm being quoted...
Mark provided incredible support for me, and I am across the country from him. If every vendor supplied support the way mark does, the world would be a better place.
I would purchase anything mark offers with confidence.
Posted by: worn Jun 20 2013, 05:30 PM
Cool!
I do a Microsquirt based plug and play version for the Type 1. For Type 4 a few lengths would need to be changed. That is something I can work out with Aircooledtechguy over at his shop.
Then again, you said it yourself. McMarc uses his kits on his own installs and doesn't cater to the DIY guys, I do. It's just another options for the guys that are not local to him and able to just drop their
I am glad you have something to offer in this arena. It might be wise not to make comparisons with other people's work on what is fundamentally a venue of genteel ladies and gentlemen with the finest sensibilities.
I love the pictures. Thanks.-Warren
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 20 2013, 05:46 PM
I am glad you have something to offer in this arena. It might be wise not to make comparisons with other people's work on what is fundamentally a venue of genteel ladies and gentlemen with the finest sensibilities.
I love the pictures. Thanks.-Warren
Thanks! And by no means am I trying to knock down McMark's work or his quality. I am new hear and just want people to know there are options.
Posted by: DBCooper Jun 20 2013, 08:24 PM
There seems to be a feeling that some toes are being stepped on here, but I that's not the case at all. Mark is a generalist, does Megasquirt along with a full range of mechanical services. Mechanical repair, restoration, modifications, engine building, fuel injection, carburetors, OEM, aftermarket, etc, etc. Mario is a specialist and does Megasquirt. Period. That's all he does. If you want general mechanical or fuel injection, OEM or aftermarket, call Mark. If you all you want is aftermarket fuel injection, call Mark OR Mario. Or Mark and Mario, if you're that way. No conflict, no either/or, no big deal, no inferences, no limitations. Both have excellent reputations, both are courteous to elderly people and like small children. It's no different than Mark and Jake, Mark and Chris, Mark and Eric, or any other combination. You have a choice, that's all, and that's not a bad thing. For anyone.
Posted by: worn Jun 20 2013, 09:45 PM
There seems to be a feeling that some toes are being stepped on here, but I that's not the case at all. Mark is a generalist, does Megasquirt along with a full range of mechanical services. Mechanical repair, restoration, modifications, engine building, fuel injection, carburetors, OEM, aftermarket, etc, etc. Mario is a specialist and does Megasquirt. Period. That's all he does. If you want general mechanical or fuel injection, OEM or aftermarket, call Mark. If you all you want is aftermarket fuel injection, call Mark OR Mario. Or Mark and Mario, if you're that way. No conflict, no either/or, no big deal, no inferences, no limitations. Both have excellent reputations, both are courteous to elderly people and like small children. It's no different than Mark and Jake, Mark and Chris, Mark and Eric, or any other combination. You have a choice, that's all, and that's not a bad thing. For anyone.
Couldn't have put it better, but couldn't say it better. Well done and thanks. Now more things to buy!
Posted by: McMark Jun 20 2013, 09:46 PM
Absolutely! Just trying to make sure my offerings are represented. I'm happy to see Mario here and I hope he'll be able to chip in on some of the MegaSquirt threads that pop up.
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 20 2013, 09:55 PM
Great to see we have two guys with great knowledge and product out in the market. Some of us look at stuff like mega squirt as voo doo science. I hope to get with the program and learn how that stuff works.
Posted by: McMark Jun 20 2013, 10:41 PM
No, you're right Rick. It is VooDoo!
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 20 2013, 11:27 PM
No, you're right Rick. It is VooDoo!
Posted by: MarioVelotta Jun 26 2013, 01:31 AM
Another Dual TB kit. This particular one if for a type 1.
On another note, I have been working on a nicer fuel rail for our applications. Decided to draw some up. 
The nice thing about computer design is it's easily modified. That was rev 1. Then I started adding parts and checking fitment.
Rev 2 was more parts and starting to look like something!
Looked pretty good so I had some proto's made to check them out on some manifolds before I hit up the machine shop.
You can see more here if you would likehttps://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.667698929923266.1073741833.185889458104218&type=3
Thanks for looking!
Posted by: rdauenhauer Jun 26 2013, 02:21 PM
Very nice. 
Ill be visiting soon.
Posted by: McMark Jun 26 2013, 03:16 PM
That's cool. Love the rapid prototyping. 
Posted by: MarioVelotta Aug 29 2013, 01:22 PM
Well these rails got made, and are a great success 
Here was the first engine that got them, a 2085 that Nate from ProVolks guided this father / son through. Using his build it yourself engine program. 
I love how they kinda disappear and get rid of that fuel line across the front of the motor.
They fit multiple Type 1 applications
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33RIrWVj-dg&feature=share&list=UUTdBUTdz0nvqjWRN_soKYwA
Posted by: MarioVelotta Aug 29 2013, 01:32 PM
My new project is a Mini Cam Sync for sequential fuel and spark. There isn't a good solution so I'm making one.
Here where my first thoughts
Gathering parts for the first prototypes. 
I have made some changes since these drawings. Mainly using dual bearings to better support the shaft to keep it straight, added in some retaining clips to hold stuff together instead of relying on everything to press fit and added in the factory oiling instead of using sealed bearings.
So here is where I'm at right now. Still need to change a couple little things and then send off files in exchange for parts 
Wish me luck!
Posted by: DBCooper Aug 29 2013, 02:44 PM
Yeah, quick question Mario: what in the f*** are you thinking? You know these are antique motors, right? No future? This is all way modern tech, they could probably even meet smog with this stuff.
Posted by: MarioVelotta Aug 29 2013, 04:03 PM
Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 29 2013, 04:20 PM
If the buyer of my motor is wise, he'll have McMark go ahead with the plans we had discussed to eliminate the SDS and go to Megasquirt. The SDS just doesn't seem flexible enough to handle great changes in altitude. I live at 4500', I cross a 7236' pass regularly, I play at sea-level. I have EFI for pete's sake! I shouldn't have to re-tune!
Posted by: DBCooper Aug 29 2013, 05:59 PM
Yeah, the flip side of the "simple" in Simple Digital Systems is that simple often also means "limited," or "requires user input." You do have a pretty extreme example of altitude changes, though, wouldn't be an issue for a lot of people.
Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 29 2013, 06:18 PM
...
eliminate the SDS and go to Megasquirt. The SDS just doesn't seem flexible enough
...
totally
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Aug 29 2013, 09:15 PM
Here's Mario doing that voodoo that he,. . . do so well. (for whatever reason, I can't seem to embed this video; sorry)
http://youtu.be/iD8hFF1Ooz4
Yeah it's a VW motor, but listen to the sound of that beast running full sequential ITB MS3 Pro w/ COP ignition. . .
I just love teaching folks to build their own motors and it's even better when we get to do special builds like this and bring in Mario and his top-notch products and expertise. SDS ain't got nuthin' on a well built and tuned MS system,. . . NUTHIN'!!
Posted by: Jeff Hail Aug 30 2013, 09:29 PM
With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?
Nope.. AC Delco doesn't make bitch'n Espresso Makers, Washing Machines and Driers.
Posted by: Bob L. Aug 30 2013, 11:14 PM
With sensors from GERMAN cars so they look right.
You know Bosch is the AC Delco of Germany, right?
Nope.. AC Delco doesn't make bitch'n Espresso Makers, Washing Machines and Driers.
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