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Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 01:12 PM

Current Status:
Running great!

I picked up this car late 2012 with the intention of flipping it. But never got anything done on it until I tore apart my Marathon Blue Metallic 73 to prepare it for WCR 2013, which of course didn't happen. So now this Gold Metallic 71 is my new driver.

Starting off at the beginning. Trekkor found the car and had it for sale. I picked it up from him without the engine, front bumper, rocker panels or wheels pictured below. Otherwise this is how the car came to me.


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Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 01:12 PM

I tried at sell the car a few times since it was just collecting leaves in my parking lot. But most people I showed it to found it a little too big of a project for them. So we pulled the rotten battery tray and patched a small section in the hell hole. We pulled the crazy sway bar setups off (see rear underside pic above) and ripped out the wood grain dash. I also swapped the lids to a better set. Both trunk lids had crazy scratching on them, and both were rusted in the usual places (under the lip). The rear reflector got the axe as well.

With WCR approaching and the Blue car still on the rotisserie, I realized I needed a new plan and settled upon getting the Gold car operational.

At first I was going to rebuild the suspension, brakes, etc. But my pragmatic employee, Tim, suggested it would be smarter to simply swap the suspension and brakes off of the Blue car instead, saving us hours of work. DUH! So we had a roller with good brakes in an afternoon. We also installed the gas tank and fuel pump off the Blue car as well because those parts were known good.

The engine was undecided at first. I had a known good 2.0 with stock FI ready to go in and that was the plan the whole time, but when the day came for the engine to go in, somehow the Turbo 1.7 project ended up there instead.

Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 01:13 PM

For those of you the haven't seen a gold metallic 914, here's a shot. I expect some day it will go back to original.




This is not my car!


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Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 01:13 PM

I got the MicroSquirt FI setup up and running, and tuned the car without the turbo in place. I'm still working on tuning the turbo in. I've got a few more days yet before I have to drive 12h to WCR.

In between working on the engine I decided to color sand the paint. The yellow respray was one of the absolute worst paint jobs I've ever seen. There was so much texture in the paint that you almost couldn't call it 'orange peel'. I'm happy with how it turned out.


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Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 01:13 PM

Long term plans are to install the 2.4 six I picked up awhile back and do a detailed six tribute.

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 7 2013, 01:19 PM

Goldie Lock

I have never seen a rear Addco swaybar installed that way

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 7 2013, 02:16 PM

Nice project car. I'm surprised you didn't get any bites on that one.

Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 02:27 PM

Yeah, me too. But I'm glad it worked out how it did because the couple times I did try to sell it, I was asking WAY too little.

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 7 2013, 03:13 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 7 2013, 01:27 PM)

Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 7 2013, 04:51 PM

we're both racing the calendar mark. how are you going to keep the clutch and speedo cable from melting together?

Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 06:05 PM

Drive faster.

Posted by: r_towle Jun 7 2013, 06:10 PM

Gold.....that is what my red car was originally.
I just can't like that color...tried, kept thinking about it, but nahhh

Funny, all you pictures have a different shade...some look yellow orange, the first ones look butterscotch, which is actually kinda cool, but the interior shots have that gold paint...

It's rare, so keeping it gold will make it unique, but also most likely a tough sell

Posted by: McMark Jun 7 2013, 09:13 PM

Yeah, the first post pics are from Trekkor's sale ad. Different camera, different colors. I think as a six 'replica' gold will sell.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jun 7 2013, 09:32 PM

Hi Mark

Boy that Gold is a super rare color...... It's rare because it was not very popular back then (IMHO). I just asked my wife about the gold and she slapped (figuratively) the shXX out of me and said, essentially, No.

Good luck with the car though; it is good to see one on the road in that color.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 7 2013, 09:46 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 7 2013, 10:13 PM)

Posted by: balljoint Jun 8 2013, 05:48 AM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Jun 7 2013, 11:32 PM)

Posted by: wndsrfr Jun 8 2013, 07:07 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 7 2013, 11:13 AM)

For those of you the haven't seen a gold metallic 914, here's a shot. I expect some day it will go back to original.




This is not my car!

Posted by: McMark Jun 8 2013, 11:20 AM

Thanks for chiming in!

Posted by: potomacmidget Jun 8 2013, 05:03 PM

QUOTE(wndsrfr @ Jun 8 2013, 09:07 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 7 2013, 11:13 AM)

For those of you the haven't seen a gold metallic 914, here's a shot. I expect some day it will go back to original.




This is not my car!

That gold metallic is stunning in the sunlight......my first 914 came to me with a crappy white respray...when I removed the rockers I was greeted with the gleam of the original and put it back to the gold metallic...loved it, like the song by Willie Nelson & Julio..."All the girls I've loved..."

Posted by: McMark Jun 8 2013, 07:37 PM

That looks fantastic!

Posted by: Kraftwerk Jun 8 2013, 08:12 PM

Since we are on the subject...GOLD! It really is a perfect period-correct color for these cars.
Besides its the color of beer, so whats not to like?

ps. Those rims are K.Trekors old wheels...

Posted by: potomacmidget Jun 9 2013, 08:29 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 8 2013, 09:37 PM)

Posted by: wndsrfr Jun 9 2013, 11:48 AM

QUOTE(potomacmidget @ Jun 8 2013, 03:03 PM)

QUOTE(wndsrfr @ Jun 8 2013, 09:07 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 7 2013, 11:13 AM)

For those of you the haven't seen a gold metallic 914, here's a shot. I expect some day it will go back to original.




This is not my car!

That gold metallic is stunning in the sunlight......my first 914 came to me with a crappy white respray...when I removed the rockers I was greeted with the gleam of the original and put it back to the gold metallic...loved it, like the song by Willie Nelson & Julio..."All the girls I've loved..."

I have to agree! Here is a picture of your old car - I am still loving it..

Posted by: McMark Jun 9 2013, 09:39 PM

Got a bunch of little stuff taken care of today. It's dark now, so no pics. Those will come tomorrow.

1. Rocker covers installed.
2. Front bumper installed.
3. Gas gauge hooked up.
4. Battery mounted.
5. Intercooler fans wired up.
6. Amp and speakers installed so I don't go crazy.
7. Front trunk cleaned up and spare tire tucked away.
8. Alignment sorted out.
9. Swapped the broken DS door handle for a good one.
10. DS door pocket installed.
11. Painted the dash face, since I don't have time to do new vinyl.
12. Installed the switches into the dash.
13. Moved the oil pressure gauge from the ashtray area to the dash (existing hole).
14. Installed the kneepad.
15. Routed the oil pressure gauge wiring more appropriately.

Posted by: ottox914 Jun 9 2013, 09:42 PM

Fun project. Goldielocks. From the pics, its hard to see the relationship between the speedo and clutch cables to the exhaust you fabricated up.

IF its close AT ALL, heat wrap the crap out of everything down there, or you'll have a melted clutch cable in no time at all.

Hope that draining the turbo oil, which is not pressurized, will flow OK to the lowest point in the oil system, (tuna can) and not just back up in the line and into the turbo bearing. Personally I'd be more comfortable with the oil draining back in to the engine at a higher point, although that may involve a lift pump, or a drain to a valve cover. I can't imagine there is ever much of a time when the tuna can is not filled with oil even before draining the turbo into it.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 9 2013, 10:25 PM

Mark,
Obviously I will not be back from the Philippines before you leave for WCR but I have a new dash vinyl I don't need...

Posted by: McMark Jun 10 2013, 08:02 PM

Thanks Rob. I've got about 5yds of the stuff, but no time to put in on in a way that will make me happy. Plus this build (at this point) is all about sprucing up old stuff, not installing new. So pitted paint, pitted wheels, cracking interior, and all that stuff is part of the 'look' I'm going for. Painted dash goes right in with that.

Finished polishing the paint. I can't capture in pictures how smooth it is. Really happy with that.

Installed a front valence and cleaned the wheels.
Put the turn signals and side markers back on.


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Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jun 10 2013, 08:21 PM

good work. that's why your the man!

Posted by: Trekkor Jun 10 2013, 08:40 PM

This is cool!


KT

Posted by: balljoint Jun 10 2013, 08:40 PM

Looks toight like a toiger!

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 10 2013, 09:00 PM

Good job Mark!

Posted by: green914 Jun 10 2013, 09:19 PM

Here's a project, its original color was gold, not sure what color to call it now.


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Posted by: McMark Jun 10 2013, 10:43 PM

Green914, available?

Posted by: JRust Jun 10 2013, 11:35 PM

Hey Mark you need to swing by my place on the way through. You can pick out another set of seats if you'd like. I may even just have a seat bottom that will match those. I've got a black courdaroy set that screams McMark

Posted by: McMark Jun 11 2013, 08:52 PM

Guess what this is.


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Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 11 2013, 09:00 PM

laptopsupporttdevice

Posted by: messix Jun 11 2013, 09:02 PM

getto fab

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 11 2013, 09:03 PM

1) Lunchroom tray holder
2) Tea set holder
3) Space junk
4) Beer cooler tray
5) record player holder
6) picture frame
7) road hazard
8) Passenger repellent
9) Podium
10) pulpit

Am I close?

Posted by: Trekkor Jun 11 2013, 09:25 PM

Video game holder/computer shelf for bored passenger.

I saw you cruise by this evening, BTW...


KT

Posted by: McMark Jun 11 2013, 09:32 PM

Posted by: Socalandy Jun 11 2013, 09:41 PM

QUOTE(Trekkor @ Jun 11 2013, 08:25 PM)

Posted by: JRust Jun 11 2013, 10:34 PM

I'm thinking it is for the Porta potty . You just take the top off & let it rip

Posted by: Trekkor Jun 11 2013, 11:09 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 11 2013, 08:32 PM)

QUOTE

I saw you cruise by this evening, BTW...

I looked for you but you were hiding, woulda stopped.

Posted by: McMark Jun 12 2013, 08:12 PM

Well, 600 miles under my belt and no major issues to report. The laptop stand was PERFECT! I didn't have to do much tuning, but my CHT sensor took a dump and started reading all over the place, which caused the Warmup Enrichment to come in at random times. This would cause the engine to miss as it went rich for a millisecond. The TPS was also popping Accel Enrichment periodically, but I solved that by changing the TPS Lag Factor to 40 (was 50). This let the ECU ignore the periodic spikes that are occurring for whatever reason.

Overall I'm REALLY happy. I still have a little pinging when I try to go WOT, so I just kept throttle movement to 50%, which wasn't an issue because I just wanted to make sure 'normal driving' was working well. I'm only getting about 5psi of boost, but I'm pretty sure that's how I have the wastegate set. Boost comes on between 2500 and 3000 rpm (can't really test that without WOT runs). But in this 'normal driving' scenario there is pretty much boost whenever I want it.

Power feels a little higher than a 2056, and I suspect that once I can dial up the boost to 9psi or so, I should be in 2270 territory or beyond. Pretty good for a 1.7. Driving impressions are fantastic. Most of the 600 miles was between 70 and 80 mph and even at those speeds I could ease on the throttle to pass or climb hills. Under day-to-day driving conditions, I'm completely happy.

Hit stop and go traffic coming into Portland (and rain ) and the engine didn't miss a beat.

Now to go hang out in Portland.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 12 2013, 08:15 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 12 2013, 06:12 PM)

Posted by: Trekkor Jun 12 2013, 08:18 PM

Nicely done!!


KT

Posted by: Trekkor Jun 12 2013, 08:18 PM

I would like a ride.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 12 2013, 08:42 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 12 2013, 07:12 PM)

Posted by: ottox914 Jun 12 2013, 09:11 PM

Congrats!

Pull some timing, or try colder plugs, and drop the hammer!

Will be interesting to see how it all works out for you.

Posted by: McMark Jun 17 2013, 11:37 PM

Discovered the pinging issue that has so far been plaguing this installation. Turns out that the coils I'm using will discharge/spark as soon as they have charged up. So if you start charging them too early, they will fire early. So with one small change in one box, a huge problem has disappeared.

I only wish I had found this bit of info a week ago. Oh well. Now to convince myself that I shouldn't try to increase the boost.

Posted by: messix Jun 17 2013, 11:41 PM

turn it up!!!!

1.7 are dime a dozen.....

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 18 2013, 12:12 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 17 2013, 10:37 PM)

Now to convince myself that I shouldn't try to increase the boost.

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jun 18 2013, 05:42 PM

if it works better than when we were on the Saturday drive than I would seriously consider ordering one. PM me!

Posted by: aircooledtechguy Jun 18 2013, 08:10 PM

Thats great to hear.

Now turn it up and let her rip! All in the name of science of course. . .

Posted by: McMark Jun 18 2013, 10:53 PM

QUOTE(montoya 73 2.0 @ Jun 18 2013, 04:42 PM)

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 18 2013, 11:21 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 18 2013, 09:53 PM)

QUOTE(montoya 73 2.0 @ Jun 18 2013, 04:42 PM)

if it works better than when we were on the Saturday drive than I would seriously consider ordering one. PM me!

So far it has been great! Made a few changes tonight that I'll try out tomorrow. Smoothed the VE table slightly, pulled 0.2 ms off the coil charge time since I'm still getting a bit of pinging at WOT. Off now to research colder platinum plugs that might work.

I really really wish I had found this stuff out a week ago.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll turn up the boost as well.

Posted by: McMark Jun 20 2013, 02:51 PM

Did a little testing this morning. Definitely getting boost as low as 1500 rpm.

Posted by: biosurfer1 Jun 20 2013, 03:27 PM

These are all lies...shame on you Mark for making people believe they can turbo a 914!

I'm going to swing by the shop for a ride soon, plus I got a new toy to show off.

Posted by: McMark Jun 23 2013, 07:41 PM

Cleared up another stupid mistake. I had been having a problem where every time the Acceleration Enrichment came in the engine would hesitate from being too rich. Finally dawned on me that if my running pulse width is 5.8ms, then adding another 3.75ms was WAY TOO MUCH! Duh!

Dailed the AE back to reasonable numbers, starting with 0.5ms added at the lowest level. So much better!

I also pulled timing from the top end, at around 1degree per psi of boost. This helped reduce the pinging, but it's still there a bit. Need to reinstall my laptop stand and do some driving/tuning.

The 'bad' part of having a running car is that I don't want to do the little things that need fixing (CHT sensor, intake leak on DS, etc).

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 24 2013, 06:38 PM

Nice. Thanks for the rolling updates on this. I'd love to ride in it. I wanted to do something just like this for a while now.

Posted by: McMark Jun 24 2013, 09:18 PM

Anytime!

I totally dusted a mid-90s Toyota Avalon tonight getting on the freeway.

Posted by: tadink Jun 25 2013, 11:54 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 24 2013, 08:18 PM)

Anytime!

I totally dusted a mid-90s Toyota Avalon tonight getting on the freeway.

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 25 2013, 01:56 PM

QUOTE(tadink @ Jun 25 2013, 10:54 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 24 2013, 08:18 PM)

Anytime!

I totally dusted a mid-90s Toyota Avalon tonight getting on the freeway.

hmmmm, a bolt-on turbo kit for a 1.7L????

let's talk when we get back to Napa!! I'm sure you need a 2nd 'test install' to work out all the bugs! :-)

great updates - I recognize that car! LOL

td

Posted by: McMark Jun 25 2013, 03:32 PM

I got plans for heat...

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 25 2013, 04:12 PM

Now you have my full attention...

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 25 2013, 04:13 PM

I was thinking about one of these self contained turbos so I wouldn't have to run oil lines.

http://aerocharger.com/aerochargers/53series/

Posted by: McMark Jun 25 2013, 05:15 PM

Interesting, but I got my turbo for 5% of that price.

Running the oil lines was pretty easy.

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 25 2013, 05:16 PM

OK, I am jealous, and I don't have any turbos just lying around.

Posted by: McMark Jun 25 2013, 05:22 PM

They've got up a little, but they're $185 on eBay. Think I paid $125.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 25 2013, 06:49 PM

One of them was free...

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 25 2013, 06:55 PM

I rode in this yesterday. 5# of boost and you can already feel that it would dust a stock 2.0. My thought, and I shared this with Mark, it feels like 2270 territory.
With different heads, say LE200 or specially designed turbo heads, this would scream!
The concept is proven. You guys should start lining up...

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 25 2013, 07:02 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 25 2013, 05:55 PM)

I rode in this yesterday. 5# of boost and you can already feel that it would dust a stock 2.0. My thought, and I shared this with Mark, it feels like 2270 territory.
With different heads, say LE200 or specially designed turbo heads, this would scream!
The concept is proven. You guys should start lining up...

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 25 2013, 07:07 PM

After my fuel injection build, it's on the list.

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jun 25 2013, 07:47 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 25 2013, 05:55 PM)

I rode in this yesterday. 5# of boost and you can already feel that it would dust a stock 2.0. My thought, and I shared this with Mark, it feels like 2270 territory.
With different heads, say LE200 or specially designed turbo heads, this would scream!
The concept is proven. You guys should start lining up...

Posted by: jsconst Jun 25 2013, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(kg6dxn @ Jun 25 2013, 06:02 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 25 2013, 05:55 PM)

I rode in this yesterday. 5# of boost and you can already feel that it would dust a stock 2.0. My thought, and I shared this with Mark, it feels like 2270 territory.
With different heads, say LE200 or specially designed turbo heads, this would scream!
The concept is proven. You guys should start lining up...

I can't do another engine swap for at least 2 months...

Posted by: McMark Jun 25 2013, 11:11 PM

Gonna grab some NGK IFR6E11 (6741) spark plugs tomorrow and give those a try. Not sure I'll notice anything, but they're a little colder, a little larger gap, and Iridium electrode. Randal ran some Iridium plugs in his race motor and had good luck, so this is a little thanks to him. Did I mention they're $11.50 per plug...

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 25 2013, 11:36 PM

Are you running an MSD with those plugs? With a larger gap this may be a place where multiple spark discharge it would benefit. during boost the charging of the cylinder can blow the single spark out of the gap. That's my simple explanation.

Posted by: McMark Jun 25 2013, 11:53 PM

It's got coil on plug, so the sparking voltage is greatly increased. I don't think MicroSquirt supports multiple spark, but I should look into that.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 26 2013, 12:10 AM

I was struck by how driveable it was. This isn't a beast that you couldn't talk your wife into riding in. It retains the character of the 1.7 but has an "I want to go play" attitude.
I can just imagine how nice this would be with a freshly built balanced engine and a good quiet well flowing muffler.

With the right heads...

Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 26 2013, 07:38 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 26 2013, 12:53 AM)

Posted by: kevin311 Jun 26 2013, 08:50 AM

I love this thread.
I have been gathering parts to do this also, after I finish my ITBs. Im already running MSII and I have a really small turbo from an old volvo that I used on my T1 sandrail with SS oil feed and drain lines.
This thread is making me really anxious to get to work!

Great work! Really an inspiration!

Kevin

Posted by: McMark Jun 26 2013, 10:27 AM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 25 2013, 11:10 PM)

I was struck by how driveable it was. This isn't a beast that you couldn't talk your wife into riding in. It retains the character of the 1.7 but has an "I want to go play" attitude.
I can just imagine how nice this would be with a freshly built balanced engine and a good quiet well flowing muffler.

With the right heads...

Posted by: McMark Jun 26 2013, 10:28 AM

QUOTE(kevin311 @ Jun 26 2013, 07:50 AM)

I love this thread.
I have been gathering parts to do this also, after I finish my ITBs. Im already running MSII and I have a really small turbo from an old volvo that I used on my T1 sandrail with SS oil feed and drain lines.
This thread is making me really anxious to get to work!

Great work! Really an inspiration!

Kevin

Posted by: Chris H. Jun 26 2013, 10:46 AM

Posted by: McMark Jun 26 2013, 10:49 AM

Thanks Chris. From what I've read that plate process only applied to 1969 and earlier car. But I suppose it would be worth it to put the paperwork through anyway might get lucky. I would love it to be blue plates...

Posted by: Chris H. Jun 26 2013, 10:50 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 26 2013, 11:49 AM)

Thanks Chris. From what I've read that plate process only applied to 1969 and earlier car. But I suppose it would be worth it to put the paperwork through anyway might get lucky. I would love it to be blue plates...

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 26 2013, 11:08 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 26 2013, 09:27 AM)

Posted by: effutuo101 Jun 26 2013, 11:13 AM

I have a couple of small SUBY turbos if you think they would help a build. VF31 and VF 32. They can off my twin turbo motor, and I am going to a single screw set up.

Posted by: McMark Jun 26 2013, 07:57 PM

So... I learned today that my gas gauge doesn't go below 1/4 tank.


Luckily I ran out of gas basically in Trekkor's driveway. I owe ya big time, buddy.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jun 26 2013, 10:36 PM

You could always run E85. Stays cooler at higher boost levels. less detonation...

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 26 2013, 10:45 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 26 2013, 08:27 AM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 25 2013, 11:10 PM)

I was struck by how driveable it was. This isn't a beast that you couldn't talk your wife into riding in. It retains the character of the 1.7 but has an "I want to go play" attitude.
I can just imagine how nice this would be with a freshly built balanced engine and a good quiet well flowing muffler. : driving:

With the right heads...

There are so many turbo horror stories out there.

Posted by: r_towle Jun 27 2013, 07:32 AM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 26 2013, 01:08 PM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 26 2013, 09:27 AM)

I could do ...

Don't ...

The thing that makes this so interesting is the fact that it would be a bolt on solution to a *STOCK* 1.7L engine!

And there are so many of them out there. If you can make this work with a stock cam and stock heads and be able to sell it as a complete kit, you will be way ahead.

Once people have to split the case or even just swap heads, you lost 2/3 of your customer base right there.

Posted by: Chris H. Jun 27 2013, 08:03 AM

This could be interesting for Bay Window bus owners too. They aren't looking for massive boost, just a little more ooomph to push those toasters around.

Posted by: McMark Jun 27 2013, 10:50 PM

Put in the new spark plugs. Didn't notice a difference.
Installed a new CHT sensor so I can turn cold start enrichment back on.

Still fighting some pinging. Sunday I'm going to pull out 10 degrees of timing and just see if it's possible to make it stop. If that doesn't work I need to sit down and think about what's causing this problem. Could be that the spark plugs are still too hot. Could be that the MS is doing something odd or the coils I'm using aren't up to it.

I also found out (by actually looking) that my engine is 8.2:1 compression, it's a W code engine. This is higher than I thought, but comparing it to other turbo engines out there it isn't out of line. ottox914 is running ~9:1 and 12+ psi of boost. I have a feeling something more than just tuning is the issue. I honestly don't expect pulling timing to make any difference, and the AFR while pinging is 10 to 1.

Posted by: messix Jun 27 2013, 10:59 PM

when is it pining?

high load lower rpm, high load high rpm?

Posted by: McMark Jun 27 2013, 11:01 PM

Pretty much anytime over 3/4 throttle (2600 RPM and above)

Posted by: monkeyboy Jun 27 2013, 11:02 PM

Possible sharp edge in the head getting too hot?

Posted by: McMark Jun 27 2013, 11:06 PM

Possible. Who knows. Gotta eliminate the tuning possibility first.

Posted by: messix Jun 27 2013, 11:07 PM

you might have to add a boost indexed ign retard

Posted by: McMark Jun 27 2013, 11:33 PM

Yeah, I've got a Spark Advance MAP I play with. I'm also going to try pulling the coil dwell time down from the currect 3.8ms setting to 2.5ms and see what kinds of effects that has. These coils are generic manufacturer coils, so I'm thinking that a much lower dwell may be necessary to keep the coils happy. I've already pulled about 8 degrees of timing and it's already running rich, and I'm only pushing 5psi of boost.

Posted by: messix Jun 28 2013, 12:11 AM

your inter cooled right?

whats the intake charge temp after boost?

and have you had the heads off?

I wonder how much carbon is caked up in there?

Posted by: McMark Jun 28 2013, 04:33 PM

Small intercooler with fans.
Intake temp says 115, but I'm not confident the IAT is scaled perfectly, so it's only a ballpark figure.
Haven't had the heads off.

Further reducing the dwell didn't do anything, but another 4 degrees off the timing did. But there's still a bit of work to do. I think I need to rescale my timing map to include higher rpm bins and maybe scale the NA portion of it.

We came in to San Francisco today driving my 06 VW Rabbit. Really puts the power of the 914 in perspective, my Rabbit feels S-L-O-W. I remembered I have the iPhone dyno app. Gonna have to try that Sunday and see what it says the car makes.

Posted by: balljoint Jun 28 2013, 05:17 PM

Thoroughly enjoying this thread.

Posted by: messix Jun 28 2013, 08:32 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jun 28 2013, 03:33 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jun 30 2013, 10:35 PM

Troy, it's all the torque that really makes the difference.

Pulled more timing. Pinging seems to be under control. My next step on tuning is to optimize the mixture. It's pretty rich under boost (10:1), and I think it's sapping some power. I discovered that the TunerStudio auto-tune has a 'filter' feature. So I can auto-tune to top end, without having it fiddle with the NA section of the VE table (which I'm happy with). Later I may even try to push the timing to the edge and then pull back a couple degrees to make sure I'm getting all I can out of it.

Posted by: jaxdream Jul 1 2013, 10:13 PM

McMark , have posted any build specs on the 1.7 turbo engine ??? If so , could you provide a link , search doen't like 1.7 . Thanks ....

Jack

Posted by: McMark Jul 1 2013, 10:18 PM

I have some at work I should post. I keep forgetting that this thread doesn't have any info on the engine.

Posted by: jaxdream Jul 1 2013, 10:24 PM

I believe that there would be many interested , I sure would. Got 2 1.7s in the basement . Improving one of them would be great with a spare engine to boot .Been following this thread since I saw that engine in the Gold Member .

Jack

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 09:40 AM

Okay, here's some engine info finally.

The base engine is a W-case 1.7, or at least started out life as one. The history of the engine is unknown and could easily have been converted to a 1911. I'll probably never know. Regardless, I haven't done a single thing to the engine itself.

The turbo is a KKK K03 knockoff that I got on eBay for ~$200. It's used by VW and Audi on their 1.6-1.8 engines and I figured it would be a good match for the engine. I knew I wanted something that came onto boost early because I wasn't planning on trying to push to stock engine redline (5500) and I wanted a driver car, not a peak HP race car.

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 09:40 AM

I knew I wanted a setup that didn't modify the engine in any way, and I also wanted avoid any body modifications. These two goals were the driving force behind all of my decisions. On the exhaust side, I started with the late 1.8 exhaust because a turbo doesn't care as much about flow (key words, AS MUCH). So this setup simplified the plumbing. It also allowed a reasonable attempt at 'equal length' piping. The passenger side exhaust runs just like a normal 1.8 with a 180-degree turnaround at the front of the engine. The drivers side manifold is flipped to point out the back, and then I fabricated piping to go over the shifter and under the transmission. Both pipes converge behind cylinder #3 and turn 90-degrees upward with my rough approximation of a collector/merge. The mounting flange I made from some thick steel I had laying around.

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 09:40 AM

The exhaust exit plumbing was much easier. I ordered up a 2.5" Hooker Header muffler and some piping and it was a straight shot. The piping runs over the axle and I welded a bracket onto the muffler to utilize the stock mounting studs on the transmission.

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 09:40 AM

On the intake side, I wasn't planning on running an intercooler, but I was placing an order for another project with Setrab and saw that they had a clearance on all their intercooler cores. So I picked up the smallest one for $125. So I used the stock 1.7 air filter mount pedestal and redesigned it as an intercooler mount. This also acted as a perfect conduit to get air from the PS turbo to the DS throttle body. I first mounted the intercooler to the pedestal, then designed end caps to be laser cut from aluminum (see pic with paper mockups). I love designing crazy shapes that I can bend, rather than a bunch of plates that I weld together. I was even able to design the cutouts for the round inlet/outlet pipes. The intercooler end caps are each made from a single piece of aluminum. I also designed a fan mount/plenum. I have two SPAL 4" puller fans on the back. This was one of my first aluminum welding projects.

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 09:40 AM

The air cleaner is a stock 2.0 unit that I modified by taking off the 'snorkel' and welding mesh in its place. I also cut off the section that normally attaches to the 2.0 throttle body, and welded some pipe at a 45 degree angle to feed right at the turbo intake.

Turbo oiling is supplied from the oil pressure switch location. I used AN-3 plumbing and added a tee inline for two reasons. First is that it mounts my oil pressure sender unit, and secondly I brazed and drilled the outlet (to turbo) to restrict the pressure. Before this I was blowing oil past the bearings. Oil return is via a steel flange and pipe that I used AN-10 line with, and I drilled and welded a pipe into a tuna-can for the other end of the hose. There was some concern expressed that oil return should be above the oil pan. But since the original Audi/VW 1.6-1.8 engines do it this way, I figured I'd take the risk. I haven't seen a problem with this setup.

Posted by: monkeyboy Jul 2 2013, 10:53 AM

Nice setup

Posted by: kevin311 Jul 2 2013, 11:07 AM

Nice setup. I like your oil return. Do you see any problems with returning to the valve cover from the position the turbo is in now? I am thinking that is where im going to mount mine and that was my original plan but draining back to the sump looks better.

Sorry for the hijack but here is the turbo I will be using, I had it on my old T1 sandrail so hopefully it should be good for the teener.
Its actually a really small T3 off of an old volvo.

http://s694.photobucket.com/user/Kevin31188/media/DSC01119.jpg.html

Thanks for the inspiration!

Kevin

Posted by: r_towle Jul 2 2013, 11:10 AM

any plans to dyno this setup to see what you can reliably make for bolt on power?

rich

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 11:41 AM

Posted by: kevin311 Jul 2 2013, 12:02 PM

You're probably right on it being a little too big for my 1.7. Its a .42/.48. Im not sure of the trim.
I've had this lying around for years but at the price you got that turbo for it would be tough not to just avoid the trouble and buy one a little better suited to the engine.
And you definitely make a good point about the valve covers, I never even thought about valve adjustments...

Thanks again and keep us posted (would love to see some video!! )

Kevin

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 01:00 PM

People have asked for video, but I really can't imagine what to video. It sounds just like a normal 914 and nothing moves in such a way that would show up on video.

What would you like to see?

Posted by: kevin311 Jul 2 2013, 01:55 PM

Any video with a 914 in it is worth watching!
I was just thinking a walkaround to show the setup and maybe an in car through the gears. It would be cool to see the difference in how quickly it gets up to speed in relation to a stocker.
After seeing this thread I wish I would have done the turbo before/instead of the ITBs, but its all good fun.

Posted by: monkeyboy Jul 2 2013, 02:14 PM

I'd like to see how quickly it builds boost while driving.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 2 2013, 02:43 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 2 2013, 01:41 PM)

Posted by: r_towle Jul 2 2013, 02:47 PM

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=115287

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 03:16 PM

I'll have to read that thread again. I know I read it before. I think my biggest issue is the static compression ratio of my engine. SOMETHING is holding me back, but I can't figure out what... yet. I might try an octane booster (as suggested to me in a PM).

I also need to go over the basics now that I have 1000 miles on it. Adjust the valves, change the oil, check bolts, etc.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 2 2013, 04:13 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 2 2013, 05:16 PM)

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 2 2013, 05:52 PM

You really need to consider a methanol system. It will raise your effective octane level, Stop your pinging, cool your intake air temp and make you more HP!!! Oh, and it will prevent you from melting a piston!

I run a progressive system that increases fluid pressure with boost. 20psi=10%, 30psi=100%. You would only need a small single injector that could be mounted anywhere.

On my system (2 gallon), I run a single 330cc injector before the throttle body. This size is good for 350hp @ 7000rpm. You would need half that size and a much smaller tank. The injector mounts to a 1/8NPT bung and they have "add a bung" that can be mounted to silicone couplers. I also have a level switch that alerts the gauge when I run low.

You can also make your own mix with denatured alcohol and water. Or, you can buy pre mixed juice. Chemically they are almost identical. I can get 4 gallons of "Boost Juice" on ebay for ~$50 or a gallon of Denatured at home depot for $15. It is a simple 50/50 mix. I am also running a Root Beer aroma in the meth. I can smell it every time it kicks in.

Now I realize you are trying to tune the detonation out, but if the static compression is the problem, you may not be able to. The methanol will cure this and have added benefits. Super simple install too.

http://www.coolingmist.com/
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Water-Injection-Nozzle/c28/index.html

Posted by: balljoint Jul 2 2013, 06:09 PM

I vote for the root beer injection.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 2 2013, 06:36 PM

Use real beer, some home brew.

A beer cooled turbo 914 would be classic

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 07:05 PM

Your advice certainly isn't falling on deaf ears Mike. I guess I just want to do some more trial and error learning before I step into a new system. I will look at the MicroSquirt's ability to control the Meth Injection.

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 08:20 PM

Just had a brain wave. I installed a new CHT last week and found that the stock unit maxes out (mine reads 215 degrees max). I bet the stock intake sensor is the same way. I haven't seen over 122 degrees on the intake air temp sensor. I think tomorrow I'll gut a stock IAT and stuff a new thermistor inside and try and get some real intake temps.

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2013, 10:42 PM

Looked up the compressor map for the K03 and overlaid flow calculations at my current 5psi (yellow) and at 12psi (blue). At my current boost, I'm missing the most efficient part of the map.

I wonder if I could be inducing extra heat in the intake charge because I'm not in the best area. Could this setup run better on more boost?


Attached image(s)

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 2 2013, 11:15 PM

You need to know your actual air temp. I'm sure you're leaving hp on the table. GM sensors are cheap and pretty accurate.

You also may have too much heat soak in the intercooler to be effective. Do you have pics of the mounting?

Air to water intercoolers are 7X more efficient. Maybe you could incorporate one into your system. I have an extra pump I'll give you if you go that route.

Posted by: edwin Jul 3 2013, 07:57 AM

How are you tuning effectively if you don't know engine size
I've only ever done ve on a haltech which needs engine size to calculate injector time
Just curious
Edwin

Posted by: McMark Jul 3 2013, 11:20 AM

Posted by: edwin Jul 3 2013, 03:41 PM

If you are just using injection time then engine size doesn't matter but if using ve tables I thought the computer compares to engine size and injector size
As I say I've not used a mega squirt so just trying to learn

Posted by: McMark Jul 3 2013, 04:05 PM

You're right, but only as far as getting the engine started. MegaSquirt will develop a BASIC VE table for you based on engine size and injector size. But once that calculation is done and you start actually tuning the engine based on WBO2 readings engine size and injector size become irrelevant. You just watch your WBO2 readings and add fuel where it's lean and remove fuel where it's rich.

Posted by: McMark Jul 3 2013, 06:14 PM

Well, the new IAT had pretty much the same numbers. I little higher, but who knows how close this calibration is and how close the other's calibration was. Peak IAT was 138 degrees according to this sensor.

I don't think temperature is my problem.

Posted by: McMark Jul 3 2013, 06:42 PM

Use a dynamic compression ratio calculator.

"Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of 5 PSI is 10.52 :1."

I ran the same with 12PSI and it came to 14.25:1.

With the WebCam 119 cam it's 9.85 @ 5psi and 13.35 @ 12psi.

I think it's time to listen to Mike and try some water injection. Otherwise, I may have found the limit of a stock turbo'd setup. Which really isn't too shabby. But since this is a learning project, gotta keep going.

Also, a cam swap would allow more boost.

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jul 3 2013, 06:48 PM

Noted.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 3 2013, 08:37 PM

138° is too high for me. I like mine 120° or lower. You also have additional heat in the intake runners due to conduction from the head. And the runners are steel and don't dissipate heat well.

I don't have any real numbers on intake temp reduction with methanol BUT... When the injector kicks on, my exhaust temps, (EGT 8" after turbo) drop 200° instantly and continue to drop as long as the system is running. I have witnessed the temp going from 1400° to 800° in a matter of seconds. All due to the combustion temps dropping.

Do you have phenolic spacers on the intake runners? This also helped drop intake temps on mine.

You might also try an even colder plug. Keep stepping down temp until the plugs foul, then go back to the next hotter one.

Posted by: McMark Jul 3 2013, 09:09 PM

Yeah, I have the phenolic spacers.

Pump, nozzle, hose ordered.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 3 2013, 09:15 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 3 2013, 08:09 PM)

Posted by: Chris H. Jul 3 2013, 10:29 PM

Hate to say it...but...based on the evidence presented...

You CAN turbo a 914...

Posted by: r_towle Jul 4 2013, 04:31 AM

You say you reached the limit, but what is the limit?

Posted by: bulitt Jul 4 2013, 05:27 AM

Good point. What are you trying to achieve Mark. What is the intended purpose for this application? You can continue to chase HP, but at what expense. The F1 1.5L engines in the late 80's where hitting 800bhp on rocket fuel, but had no longevity.

"Originally the turbo F1 engines from Renault, Ferrari, and BMW were running gasoline, but the rulemakers allowed "rocket fuel" which was actually gelled toluene.You know for damn sure it burnt super slow if it was gelled so it must have had some crazy high octane equivalent. With the new rocket fuel, the other engine manufacturers were already surpassing 800bhp in 1985. This 1.5L BD based 4 cylinder engine with staged turbos was bending crankshafts at 3.0 bar (absolute) boost @ 11,000rpm. Even with a redesigned crank and flywheel the complexity of the turbo setup and transmission was probably a complete clusterfcuk. I'm sure the engine only having 4 cylinders was probably another limitation for increasing power beyond 650bhp reliably. You have to remember that this was 1987 before the time of 3D modeling, FEA, simulations, etc. While Duckworth did redesign the clutch and flywheel to live at that power output, it was clear that it was going to be an uphill battle with a 4 banger. The good old boys in NASCAR back then probably weren't making 650bhp out of their 5.7L small blocks yet and here was the F1 crowd playing with 1.5L engines."
------------------------------------------------

Turbo ecotech's running close to 300hp-

" LNF
Ecotec LNF in a Pontiac Solstice

A turbocharged direct injected (redubbed Spark Ignition Direct Injection) Ecotec was introduced in the 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP and Saturn Sky Red Line. In these applications, the engine is mounted longitudinally. Displacement is 2.0 L—1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)—with a square 86 millimetres (3.4 in) bore and stroke. Compression is 9.2:1 and maximum boost is 1.4 bar (20.0 psi), delivering 260 hp (190 kW) at 5300 rpm and 260 lb·ft (350 N·m) of torque from 2500 to 5250 rpm. Engine redline is at 6300 rpm and premium fuel is recommended. The sodium filled exhaust valves were based on technology developed for the Corvette V8 powertrains. The sodium fuses and becomes a liquid at idle, which improves conductivity and draws heat away from the valve face and valve guide towards the stem to be cooled by the engine oil circulating in this area. The camshaft-driven direct injection systems pressurizes the fuel to 31 bar (450 psi) at idle, and up to 155 bar (2,250 psi) at wide-open throttle. The "Gen II" block is similar to the 2.4 L and also features VVT technology. The Gen II block was developed using data from racing programs and computer simulations. The bore walls and bulkheads were strengthened with a weight increase of 1 kg (2.5 pounds). The coolant jackets were expanded to improve heat transfer, resulting in a coolant capacity increase of 0.5 liters.

In December 2008, GM released a Turbo Upgrade Kit for the LNF engine which increases horsepower to 290 hp (220 kW) and torque to up to 340 lb·ft (460 N·m), depending on the model. The kit retails for $650 and includes remapped engine calibration and upgraded MAP sensors. The kit is covered by the cars' existing GM warranties.[3]

Unique LNF features[4] include:

a twin-scroll turbocharger
cam-driven high-pressure gasoline direct injection fuel system
dual camshaft continuously variable valve timing
sodium-filled stainless steel Inconel exhaust valves
low-friction cast aluminum pistons with oil squirters
forged steel crankshaft
forged steel connecting rods
cast stainless steel exhaust manifold"
------------------------------------------------

Slippery slope $$$.
But to the point, are you building a daily driver, putting a kit together, do you want to stop and add water, alcohol, octane boosters? Or if this is a one off then go for it, bigger injectors, bigger turbo, racing fuel? Reliability? HP?
Seems to me, by the interest from the community a kit would be well received. Then, a bolt on with zero driver involvement? Or a weekend only package with adding water/alcohol/root beer? Tailored to each buyer? Bolt on with stock internals? Forged?

Posted by: McMark Jul 4 2013, 08:37 AM

Actually, I'm going after education. This project was never about building an engine for my car. In fact, I had a 2270 ready to bolt in and drive, but I chose the turbo 1.7 because it can teach me more. I want to try out the water injection because I'm curious just how large of an effect it can have.

Posted by: monkeyboy Jul 4 2013, 08:42 AM

In that case I really think you need to get it on a dyno ASAP. Measure and quantify each step. I'd be interested in seeing each step and the power curve too.

Posted by: jsconst Jul 4 2013, 11:21 AM

Mark are you sure you want me to sell the 1.7 in my garage......seems if you keep pushing that one you may need it?


Jeff

Posted by: McMark Jul 4 2013, 11:51 AM

But I've got a stack of spares out in the side yard...

Posted by: r_towle Jul 4 2013, 02:05 PM

are you using a multi spark system?
something to decrease the chance of detonation?

Does the megasquirt platform support tuning of a multi spark system?

Rich

Posted by: McMark Jul 4 2013, 03:10 PM

It's coil-near-plug, but not multispark. AFAIK MegaSquirt doesn't support multispark, but I'm mostly familiar with the MicroSquirt variant.

Multispark mostly helps ignite a mixture that is having trouble igniting. So it helps at low RPM on engines where poor mixture quality may occasional not ignite (low RPM miss). So it won't help with detonation because it's the opposite problem.

I don't know if my engine is truly detonating (auto-ignition). It may not be truly uncontrolled ignition. It may just be that the extremely compressed and volatile air charge doesn't need much timing because it will burn so quickly.

I still have some more parts to acquire for the water injection system. So I may spend some time trying to truly optimize this setup. Looked up the dyno shop in Napa. $125/hour. This may be the best option (duh).

Posted by: McMark Jul 4 2013, 06:31 PM

Fixed my fuel sender today. Now I'll know when I run out of gas.

Posted by: McMark Jul 9 2013, 09:22 PM

I get my water injection stuff tomorrow.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 9 2013, 09:36 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 9 2013, 08:22 PM)

I get my water injection stuff tomorrow.

Posted by: jsconst Jul 9 2013, 10:18 PM

Just to give a little comparison to the level of power, I drove Marks turbo on Monday when I was there, didn't really open it up, but driving around the neighborhood near Marks house it feels a step above my fresh 2056

I'm thinking when he gets it all dialed in it should be at or above a 2270

Nice job Mark

Jeff

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Jul 10 2013, 01:13 AM

Nice job Mark

Posted by: Kraftwerk Jul 11 2013, 11:53 PM

Mark,
I am thinking all the 1.7 Gold cars should be Turbo-ed.
So when can I send you my engine?
Would love a ride in yours at least!

good work




ps. Here is another original gold car in CA which needs love/turbo:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-914-1972-1-7L-4-Cylinder-PROJECT-CAR-Not-Running-/321160711007?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item4ac6ab8b5f#ht_500wt_1143

Posted by: McMark Jul 16 2013, 08:24 PM

I got a few pieces for my water injection project. I ordered a FloJet pump that works with water (fuel pumps won't work), has a run-dry safety feature and is self regulating so it only runs if the pressure drops.


I got the nozzle and pressure hose. The nozzle is sized, so I got the smallest one, and I'll go up if I need to. I hooked it all up on the bench to test and the spray is identical to a patio-mister. I learned from this test that the water keeps spraying quite awhile after the pump turns off. I was originally going to set up the system to power the pump whenever I got boost pressure. But after this test I'm going to order a solenoid valve and keep the pump powered 'full time' and just open the valve under boost. This is where the pressure shutoff on the pump comes in handy.

I'm going to run the pump up in the front trunk, just sitting loosely for now. Since the turbo motor isn't going to be in this car permanently I don't want to drill any holes. I also decided to use the washer bottle as my water/meth reservoir. It wasn't doing anything anyway. I drilled the bottom so I could screw a 1/4" hose barb into the bottom and drilled the cap (it's sealed on a 914/4) to allow air in.


I still need to order the solenoid valve and build the nozzle mount then do all the wiring.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 16 2013, 08:45 PM

A thing to watch for on tear down with water injection with aluminum heads is leaching of the combustion chamber metal. This used to happen with Datsun heads that were water injected until we discovered we were destroying the heads.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 16 2013, 08:52 PM

Posted by: McMark Jul 16 2013, 10:52 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 16 2013, 07:45 PM)

A thing to watch for on tear down with water injection with aluminum heads is leaching of the combustion chamber metal. This used to happen with Datsun heads that were water injected until we discovered we were destroying the heads.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2013, 11:50 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 16 2013, 08:52 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 16 2013, 07:45 PM)

A thing to watch for on tear down with water injection with aluminum heads is leaching of the combustion chamber metal. This used to happen with Datsun heads that were water injected until we discovered we were destroying the heads.

Did a little research. Apparently it's not the aluminum itself that corrodes:


for ALUMINUM heads, he said it was bad for NISSAN L-Heads due to their high silicone/copper content. Corvair Aluminum heads do not suffer from it as they are a different alloy than Nissan used, same for VW. Who knows what they used on VG motors? They may be O.K., but L-Motors will turn to cheese if you use it enough, mine did.

Posted by: McMark Jul 17 2013, 01:04 PM

10/32 - 3/8 - 13/64 what a completely idiotic system of measurement. Sorry, side note.

I noticed something potentially interesting. I updated my MicroSquirt to the latest code/firmware (3.83) and it hasn't pinged since then. Could my pinging have been a software problem all along? I added 2 degrees of timing back in under boost. We'll see how that feels when I go for a test drive.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Jul 17 2013, 01:15 PM

OMG is MicroSquirt a Bill Gates product, buggy and tempermental unless constantly re-connected to the mothership for updates?

Great work McMark! BTW my 914 started right up after sanding all (+) battery connections to remove the coastal rust and corrosion.

Super cool that the turbo is working so well. I was hoping to read that you were going to set it and forget it for 6+ months, drive and abuse it, and keep it as close to simple bolt-onto stock as possible. If you are still planning to add water to your aircooled motor....I can't stop you

Ifn I can't get my engine lid mounts welded locally I will pay you a visit soon!

Posted by: McMark Jul 17 2013, 01:54 PM

No pinging on the way to lunch. Addded 2 more degrees on the way back. Got a couple of pings and adjusted those sections. If I have time today, I'm gonna turn up the boost.

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 17 2013, 06:43 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 17 2013, 12:54 PM)

No pinging on the way to lunch. Addded 2 more degrees on the way back. Got a couple of pings and adjusted those sections. If I have time today, I'm gonna turn up the boost.

Posted by: McMark Jul 17 2013, 06:47 PM

Turned up the boost, but I think I have a pressure leak somewhere. Either that or turning the screw didn't have as profound of an effect as I expected. Peak pressure was 6.5psi. I could feel it though.

Figured I should post my config file and a log. Let me know anyone can download and open these. I had to configure the board software to allow these types and I'm not sure it worked right.


Attached File(s)
 2013_07_17_17.01.21.msl ( 2.48mb ) Number of downloads: 37
 CurrentTune.msq ( 30.33k ) Number of downloads: 31

Posted by: FourBlades Jul 17 2013, 07:01 PM

I nominate this thread for the prestigious Thread-Of-The-Month award, which I just made up.



Anyone second me?

John

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 17 2013, 07:02 PM

You should be able to get 25psi out of that K03...

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 17 2013, 07:02 PM

QUOTE(FourBlades @ Jul 17 2013, 06:01 PM)

I nominate this thread for the prestigious Thread-Of-The-Month award, which I just made up.



Anyone second me?

John

Posted by: Andyrew Jul 17 2013, 11:09 PM

QUOTE(kg6dxn @ Jul 17 2013, 06:02 PM)

You should be able to get 25psi out of that K03...

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 17 2013, 11:32 PM

QUOTE(kg6dxn @ Jul 17 2013, 06:02 PM)

It should be highlighted in pink.

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 17 2013, 11:36 PM

Posted by: kg6dxn Jul 17 2013, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 17 2013, 10:36 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 18 2013, 12:00 AM

Posted by: McMark Jul 18 2013, 12:01 AM

Posted by: oldschool Jul 18 2013, 01:04 AM

QUOTE(kg6dxn @ Jul 17 2013, 06:02 PM)

You should be able to get 25psi out of that K03...

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 18 2013, 08:00 AM

Oh No! I think Mark just saw his thread turned pink!


Attached image(s)

Posted by: get off my lawn Jul 18 2013, 10:36 AM

Ya can't do it.
Turbo a 914.
can't be done.

Posted by: ConeDodger Oct 6 2013, 11:15 PM

So I got to drive the famous 1.7 Turbo today...

First off, it has nice manners. It idles just as you'd like, there is no popping and sputtering. In short, it runs like a stock motor, new from the factory.

It has power something like a 2270. The turbo makes for a pretty quiet exhaust so it doesn't sound racy. It pulls really strong to redline and I didn't hear any pinging...

In short, I'd recommend this motor to anyone who wants stock like mannerism and way more power!

Posted by: jimkelly Oct 20 2013, 06:55 AM

mcmark - what are your thoughts about running a turbo set up like yours - with cis ?

cis: in an effort to avoid the cost of an ECU and the technology curve involved.

like nein14's car (pic below).

I assume the computer interface of MS and similar ECU, has lots of benefit.

I agree too with sirandy, most won't want to open their engines up, though most should, but then there is the cost of head and cylinder work, and more.

I think you have gotten closer than ever before to having an answer to the question "what is the best, low cost, bolt on power increase option?"


Attached image(s)

Posted by: nein14 Oct 20 2013, 12:17 PM

It's been 10 yrs since I got the turbo from Evil Ed who was the first to think outside the box Kudos to Ed!!

That being said I made a lot of performance upgrades to improve the original , upgraded larger injectors quicker spooling K26 , cold air intake, 930 WRU, etc.

IMHO it has been very reliable (knock on wood )for power it is the most bang for the buck

Posted by: jimkelly Oct 20 2013, 02:59 PM

two other major out-of-the-box thinker besides evil ed (whose engine I believe is running on nickies $$$) and mcmark - are okieflyr and scotty914

okieflyer's car is ground breaking - vw eng and trans and turbo ...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=85025&hl=

and scotty914 for breaking new ground years ago by installing a suby in a 914.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=34447&hl=

things are never boring around here with you guys constantly coming up with new wild assed ideas

lastly, the excellence article about nein14's car is in my blog.

Posted by: McMark Oct 26 2013, 11:06 PM

BOOOOOOOO!

Posted by: JStroud Oct 27 2013, 12:31 AM

That sucks !!!!!!



Jeff

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Nov 8 2013, 12:55 PM

What's new w this turbo project?
Do you need a different 914 to drop the engine into for additional testing? I can help.
Bummer about the big dent in the front there. That dent shouldn't keep ya off the road entirely.
This was one of my favorite threads

Posted by: McMark Nov 8 2013, 04:36 PM

Fixed the hood. Pics on Sunday. Other than that, just driving it and working on the http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=214741 that will eventually go in. I'll also be starting on a new base engine for the 1.7 turbo, which will end up in my http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=88134.

Posted by: McMark Nov 10 2013, 12:34 PM

All fixed up. The hood is a crappy one I had laying around. It was stripped of paint already, so I just waxed it to keep it from rusting terribly. Trying to focus on just keeping this car drivable (versus pretty), because I really should be working on getting the blue/black car finished up and ready for paint and reassembly.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 10 2013, 02:00 PM

Like...

Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2013, 03:42 PM

Finally joined the ranks of GoPro owners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6SlmtzcFKk

Posted by: bulitt Nov 20 2013, 04:21 PM

I guess the torque band is broader in higher gears with the turbo?

Posted by: jimkelly Nov 20 2013, 04:32 PM

that video hit the spot : )

next time, dry day, 50% more speed : )

treacherous road on a rainy day, very similar to mountain roads in japan, though they become one lane in many spots, got to be prepared to stop. the convex mirrors they strategically place on curves helps a lot.

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 20 2013, 04:41 PM

Oakville Grade? Mayacamus mountain range?

Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2013, 06:04 PM

Just a little road right behind the shop. My usual test drive run, although there are cops on it more frequently than you would expect.

I'll be taking some more video this weekend at the autocross.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 20 2013, 06:08 PM

Is that a laptop bolted to a bracket out of your ashtray?

And it's nice to see your wipers are worse than mine...

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 20 2013, 06:16 PM

We have no roads like that around here.

Posted by: McMark Nov 20 2013, 06:59 PM

QUOTE(rick 918-S @ Nov 20 2013, 04:16 PM)

We have no roads like that around here.

Posted by: Mike Bellis Nov 20 2013, 08:44 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 20 2013, 01:42 PM)

Finally joined the ranks of GoPro owners.

Posted by: jimkelly Nov 29 2013, 09:06 AM

obviously CIS works with a turboed type4.

since a compete set of CIS parts is often less than $500, what is the downside to using CIS vs MS/Link/SDS/Haltech etc?

the upside is a cost saving of $1500 or so it seems to me and no computer to learn/program.

what is so nice about 1.7's and even 1.8's is they are often less than $500.

>> I also wonder how nice it might be to have a suby trans (around $500 + cost of conversion kit) behind a turboed type4 regardless of how spark and fuel is achieved.

with power comparable to a 2270 which I THINK runs about $7k in kit form, a turbo 1.7L or 1.8L with CIS (or even EFI) , is the poor man's cheaper power.

here's a recent ECC 2013 video of CIS on a type4, no turbo yet (type47)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRLyDnp7G_0

Posted by: mikesmith Nov 29 2013, 12:11 PM

The 'downside' is that you miss out on the clever parts of the more advanced systems. They have lots more inputs, and they have a concept of time and history, so they can make decisions based on more information.

CIS/K-jet thinks purely instantaneously; it looks at its inputs (airflow, air density, engine temperature, throttle position) and says "this much fuel". The relationship of the fuel flow to these inputs is not (easily) adjustable, nor is it particularly complex (due to how the sensing is translated into flow adjustment).

If your motor's characteristics match those that the system was designed for, then the system will work as well as it was designed to. If it doesn't, then either you settle for the mismatch, you adjust the few things that are adjustable to try to reduce the error, or you start swapping springs and machining components in an attempt to adjust the 'computation' that the analog system is doing.


By contrast, a software-driven system like MS exposes all this computation in a (relatively) easy-to-adjust format, and it adds additional capabilities that aren't present in the earlier systems. It's designed with the understanding that the ideal relationship between the various sensor readings and fuel flow is not linear, and depends on not just instantaneous inputs but also history (throttle opening rate, accel vs. decel, etc).


To put it in soundbite terms; CIS is 'simpler' because it offers you very little opportunity to fix things that may be wrong with your fuelling.

Posted by: McMark Nov 29 2013, 01:06 PM

CIS is fantastic in its simplicity, but that also makes it nearly impossible to tune. So while I admire CIS, I can't think of it as anything more than a kludge install. It may run, but it will never really be right. At least not as 'right' as I can get my MS.

Posted by: rohar Nov 29 2013, 02:12 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 29 2013, 11:06 AM)

CIS is fantastic in its simplicity, but that also makes it nearly impossible to tune. So while I admire CIS, I can't think of it as anything more than a kludge install. It may run, but it will never really be right. At least not as 'right' as I can get my MS.

Posted by: McMark Dec 3 2013, 10:47 AM

Did a few things that I wanted to document here.

1. Resealed the back window. No more rattles! Some DAPO had shoved every bit of paper and foam imaginable back there to try and stop the rattle.

2. Pulled the water injection setup. I didn't feel any difference and in the mean time was able to tune out the pinging. The water injection may have been too small, but I realized that keeping a container of water in the car was not something that I wanted. Now the pump is repurposed as a water pump for my water-cooled TIG torch.

3. Got new tires to replace the 10+ year old tires that were on there. I recently went to an autocross, so I had performance stuck in my head. So I got all excited when I saw Falken made their ZE-912 tire in a 205-40-16. Got these ordered and installed and then immediately remembered that I don't like how a 914 looks with small circumference tires. And then I drove it and remembered that I don't like how small tires change the cruising RPM. So these will come off ASAP (probably after winter) and I'll get something back in the 205-50-16 which is really close to the stock tire size.

4. I had been using an old Odyssey compact battery that I had left over from a project (Hi Rob!), but as winter started setting in the cold morning pretty much killed the battery. I remembered why we pulled it out in the first place. Cold cranking was pretty much nonexistent and I didn't realize how weak it was overall since it was able to start the car when warm. But I got a new Optima and now the motor cranks!

5. Finally, while the tires were being replaced I was poking around under there and realized I had forgotten this car has a BIG front sway bar and some sort of firmer rear springs. I thought it handled better than stock, but now I know why.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 3 2013, 11:00 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Dec 3 2013, 08:47 AM)

Did a few things that I wanted to document here.

1. Resealed the back window. No more rattles! Some DAPO had shoved every bit of paper and foam imaginable back there to try and stop the rattle.

2. Pulled the water injection setup. I didn't feel any difference and in the mean time was able to tune out the pinging. The water injection may have been too small, but I realized that keeping a container of water in the car was not something that I wanted. Now the pump is repurposed as a water pump for my water-cooled TIG torch.

3. Got new tires to replace the 10+ year old tires that were on there. I recently went to an autocross, so I had performance stuck in my head. So I got all excited when I saw Falken made their ZE-912 tire in a 205-40-16. Got these ordered and installed and then immediately remembered that I don't like how a 914 looks with small circumference tires. And then I drove it and remembered that I don't like how small tires change the cruising RPM. So these will come off ASAP (probably after winter) and I'll get something back in the 205-50-16 which is really close to the stock tire size.

4. I had been using an old Odyssey compact battery that I had left over from a project (Hi Rob!), but as winter started setting in the cold morning pretty much killed the battery. I remembered why we pulled it out in the first place. Cold cranking was pretty much nonexistent and I didn't realize how weak it was overall since it was able to start the car when warm. But I got a new Optima and now the motor cranks!

5. Finally, while the tires were being replaced I was poking around under there and realized I had forgotten this car has a BIG front sway bar and some sort of firmer rear springs. I thought it handled better than stock, but now I know why.

Posted by: jimkelly Dec 4 2013, 10:24 AM

I know you don't need to pass emissions in CA for cars 1975 and older.

http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/smog-check.php#Cars-Six-Years-Old-and-Newer

but I wonder how it would do?

if it tested high, could the numbers be brought down via the MAP alone?

in Delaware my 1972 needs to be under 600 for HC and under 6.0 for CO, regardless of engine in it.

I found a local shop that tuned my, carbureted V8 car, to pass, they had a sniffer, charged $75 at that time.


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Posted by: jimkelly Dec 17 2013, 06:27 AM

a 1.7, that runs like a $10k 2270

1.7L engine $300+-
K03 turbo $200+-
custom exhaust $500+-
megasquirt $645
.. http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtiii-ems-system-with-ms3x-expansion-v357-assembled-p-435.html
intercooler and plumbing $?
bits and pieces $?
labor $?

Posted by: 914_teener Dec 17 2013, 08:22 PM

QUOTE(jimkelly @ Dec 4 2013, 08:24 AM)

Posted by: McMark Dec 17 2013, 10:21 PM

Driving it every day. Installed a side mirror today. Working on building customized heater boxes, but not ready to post pics quite yet. Still have to build the driver's side.

Posted by: jimkelly Feb 17 2014, 07:22 PM

for heater boxes update : )

Posted by: McMark May 5 2014, 11:21 AM

I build a center box for an 8" subwoofer a few month ago. Finally got around to sanding and painting it. To complete the system, I got a four channel amp (1xLeft, 1xRight, 2xSub) and tucked it up under the dash. Then I got a bluetooth adapter for the amp. So no 'radio'/headunit. Sounds really good, unless you're used to a car with bigger subs. The same way a 2270 feels fast unless you normally drive a 3.6.


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Posted by: ConeDodger May 5 2014, 02:15 PM

Posted by: CptTripps May 6 2014, 07:39 AM

I've seen/heard this in person. It's flat-out awesome.

Mark: I thought it was a 6" sub? You gave me shit about wanting to put an 8" in between. Is this the same one, or did you switch it out?

Posted by: McMark May 6 2014, 09:51 AM

Oh yeah. Thanks for reminding me.

8" subs are dumb, get a 6" like me.

Posted by: jimkelly Aug 18 2014, 04:33 PM

mark - you are using your crank sensor kit with the microsquirt on this turbo set up, correct? you are feeding spark voltage thru a distributor?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550

looks like i'll need a, microsquirt $375, tps, iat, 4 ls1 coils at $20ea, gm map $64, and mcmarks crank wheel, ebay turbo $150, etc etc

http://www.useasydocs.com/quickstart.htm

thanks,
jim


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Posted by: Mueller Nov 30 2014, 03:50 PM

Just finished reading this entire thread instead of programming like I am supposed to be doing...great progress and results Mark....now to get back into the shop and make some chips!

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Dec 1 2014, 02:16 PM

Did heater boxes ever get built?

Posted by: McMark Dec 1 2014, 10:48 PM

One of two, but it's not incredibly effective. Now I have too many projects to take a day and work on my own stuff.

Posted by: McMark Jan 18 2015, 11:15 PM

Couple updates...

I got three cheap thermocouple temp gauges and ran them int the intake track. One is at the air filter, one is after the turbo and on is after the intercooler. It's been cold (no heat) so I haven't done a ton of driving, but one my hour test drive I got the after turbo temp up to 80C/175F. But after the intercooler it was back down to about 55C/131F (intake temps 50C/122F). We'll see how things look in the warmer temps of spring and summer, but I'm pretty psyched to actually quantify that my intercooler is working well.

I also had a growing feeling that there was a boost leak and thought my blow off valve was wearing out. The Bosch valve I'm using is often thought of as crappy. But through a LOT of searching a realized that the valve is very often installed backwards, and mine was as well. I could never understand why I was only seeing about 8psi of boost since the turbo is supposed to make a lot more. With the BOV installed backwards there was only an 8psi spring holding the valve shut. So above that the BOV was opening and bleeding pressure. I flipped it today, but I haven't test driven it yet. My laptop was dead and I want numbers when I go out. And my positive battery cable connection is flaky, so I need to fix that as well.

I'll report back tomorrow and let you know if I blow something up.

Posted by: Chris Pincetich Jan 19 2015, 04:42 PM

Great find - MORE BOOST!
Has anybody paid you to make another TIV turbo yet?
I am saving my money for another visit! My 914 is running good, better after a TPS tweak, but not 100% perfect.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 19 2015, 07:27 PM

A revision of the the map in post #131 should be interesting.

Posted by: McMark Jan 19 2015, 11:00 PM

Drove it home tonight but didn't find the magic boost. time to look at waste gate control. I know from my undercar video that the waste gate is opening quickly.

Posted by: edwin Jan 20 2015, 02:35 AM

Easy way to check how quickly and what levels are possible is to quickly pull the wastegate line off. What are you doing for a boost controller? I assume a Mac style solenoid and pwm from the microsquirt?

Posted by: McMark Jan 21 2015, 12:55 AM

Right now it's just the built in waste gate. This is a Chinese knockoff KKK so I expect the wastegate is the weak point. Looking at the turbo smart adjustable controller (bleed off style). But I just realized maybe I should install the real KKK turbo I got from Mike.

Posted by: edwin Jan 21 2015, 02:04 AM

The wastegate settings on the turbos would be the same I expect.
Turbosmart bleed valve is an easy fix or if you have a spare pwm channel on the microsquirt then use that and a boost solenoid for the best control.
Do yourself a favour and just unplug the wastegate and plug the boost line. Go for a drive and watch the boost. Just remember the only think limiting the boost will be your foot.
Only do this for testing.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 21 2015, 12:25 PM

Mark,

What you do differently if you had to start from scratch?

The '73 I am getting that has the bad motor supposedly has a Kerry Hunter header on it...hmmmm, and it already has a megasquirt on it....

Posted by: McMark Jan 21 2015, 11:28 PM

I don't think I would do anything differently. It's been great for a long time now, and I enjoy it every time I get in. It's a long slow learning process, but so far the minor changes I have made here and there haven't made much difference. So there haven't been any big mistakes to correct.

Posted by: falcor75 Mar 4 2015, 12:58 AM

Loved reading thru your thread, can you post some pictures of your coil setup?

Posted by: McMark May 24 2015, 08:15 PM

Installed the high amp alternator today. Laughably, I did that whole upgrade mostly because I was seeing a lot a variation in battery voltage (via the MicroSquirt logs). But the alternator wasn't the problem. Tried a different battery. That wasn't the problem either. Started checking the relay board, pulled and reinstalled the fuel injection connector, and all went back to normal. So I did all this work and it was just a corroded connector after all.

I also resealed my exhaust.... Hallelujah! Btw, I never 'got' the tip about annealing the copper exhaust gaskets, until this time. Holy crap, I should have listened to everyone a LONG time ago. So much nicer. So much quieter.

Posted by: rick 918-S May 24 2015, 10:27 PM

Can't blame you for doing the upgrade. I have similar symptoms showing on the factory gauge. Very annoying. Glad you found the real issue.

Posted by: Aircooledfool May 25 2015, 05:41 PM

This may have been asked already, do you plan to offer this type of setup to the public?

Posted by: McMark May 25 2015, 06:47 PM

Never as a loose collection of 'bolt on' parts. I'd be happy to build a setup for someone, but it would be build-to-order and also dependent on the rest of my work load. You have to get the fuel injection and that's around $3k, the turbo and exhaust fab work would be another $2000-2500. If anyone is interested, they can PM me.

Just realized maybe you're talking about the alternator setup. Same caveat, but the price is more reasonable. The alternator itself is in the $300 range, plus shop rate for making the modifications to the unit, which would be in the $200 range.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 25 2015, 07:37 PM

Mark,
As far as the turbo is concerned, I think you've proven the concept. Let's build a new engine and bolt on the turbo. That way you can customize the cam grind, get heads that work really well with boost...
I can come down for build days!

Posted by: nine9three May 26 2015, 04:09 PM

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Seems to me that a well designed turbo system would find a home among many on this board. My only issue is the cost. It would seem to me that the easiest way to control some those costs would be to keep as much of the original system as possible (D-jet/L-Jet). I'm not sure how boost effects the MPS or if it's necessary to use alternative injection systems. When I had a 930, which was K-jet, I placed an Andial unit on the intake which activated the cold start valve for boost cycles. Could this be done? Andial is not around any longer but would something like this work?: http://1jzmerc.com/hks-faq/accessories/hks-aic

Basically cheers on you mate for wetting our appetite but find a way to make this work economically so I can forget about the 2270. Wait a minute? Don't you have a separate thread on "engine choices"?

Posted by: McMark Oct 17 2016, 07:22 AM

Now that I finally have room in the shop for my car I made up a work list for the next few months. This is phase 1.


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Posted by: Mueller Oct 17 2016, 08:09 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 17 2016, 06:22 AM)

Now that I finally have room in the shop for my car I made up a work list for the next few months. This is phase 1.

Posted by: rtalich Oct 17 2016, 09:13 AM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 17 2016, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 17 2016, 06:22 AM)

Now that I finally have room in the shop for my car I made up a work list for the next few months. This is phase 1.

Everyone knows you cannot sell a turbo Type IV engine

Congrats on the progress!

Posted by: djb Jun 2 2018, 04:17 PM

Great thread! Probably the best Turbo 914 thread on the web, thanks for documenting it.

I have a 75 914 1.8 that I am seriously considering doing a Turbo conversion. What would you say a safe level of boost and approx power a stock 1.7 or 1.8 street engine can support and be reasonably reliable without abusing it?

Im familiar with setting up and tuning stand alone FI systems, just not clear on what the stock engine will support when tuned properly/safely.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 2 2018, 04:38 PM

QUOTE(djb @ Jun 2 2018, 07:17 PM)

Posted by: jim_hoyland Jun 2 2018, 05:25 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 2 2018, 03:38 PM)

QUOTE(djb @ Jun 2 2018, 07:17 PM)

Great thread! Probably the best Turbo 914 thread on the web, thanks for documenting it.

I have a 75 914 1.8 that I am seriously considering doing a Turbo conversion. What would you say a safe level of boost and approx power a stock 1.7 or 1.8 street engine can support and be reasonably reliable without abusing it?

Im familiar with setting up and tuning stand alone FI systems, just not clear on what the stock engine will support when tuned properly/safely.

8psi...

Posted by: mepstein Jun 2 2018, 05:35 PM

QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Jun 2 2018, 07:25 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jun 2 2018, 03:38 PM)

QUOTE(djb @ Jun 2 2018, 07:17 PM)

Great thread! Probably the best Turbo 914 thread on the web, thanks for documenting it.

I have a 75 914 1.8 that I am seriously considering doing a Turbo conversion. What would you say a safe level of boost and approx power a stock 1.7 or 1.8 street engine can support and be reasonably reliable without abusing it?

Im familiar with setting up and tuning stand alone FI systems, just not clear on what the stock engine will support when tuned properly/safely.

8psi...

Good question; what determines the ultimate boost ?

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 2 2018, 07:24 PM

QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Jun 2 2018, 04:25 PM)

Posted by: djb Jun 2 2018, 08:11 PM

Thanks for the response? About what power would 8 PSI make on a stock 1.8? Just trying to get a rough idea.

Posted by: Mueller Jun 2 2018, 09:47 PM

QUOTE(djb @ Jun 2 2018, 07:11 PM)

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 3 2018, 12:22 AM

QUOTE(djb @ Jun 2 2018, 11:11 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jun 3 2018, 07:09 AM

Yup, torque is the big benefit. But think about the RPM range you're driving in most of the time. My car basically makes the most power in that range, so I can feel it taper off above 4500rpm, but that's okay with me. It's got greatly improved acceleration where I really use it.

I've run up to 12psi at times. You'll need to run aftermarket fuel injection to do it right. I prefer the MicroSquirt setup. The stock engine is a great place to start because they're relatively easy to replace if something blows up. My car has a stock 1.7 in it. But I'm eager to build the replacement engine that still based on a 1.7 but has a few tricks thrown in to make more effective use of the boost.

Posted by: jim_hoyland Jun 3 2018, 07:36 AM

What kind of boost did the Ray-Jay provide ? IIRC, 914rrr had one on the blue car


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Posted by: McMark Jun 3 2018, 12:11 PM

No idea.