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Posted by: URY914 Dec 6 2004, 08:40 PM

This weekend I welded the 1 1/4" tube that locates the rear tranny mount. After that I was able to cut out the left side sheet metal. I have a BIG pile of metal left over.


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Posted by: URY914 Dec 6 2004, 08:41 PM

I have to fit the top tube on the right and than I can pull the engine and fit and weld the rest of the right side bars.


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Posted by: URY914 Dec 6 2004, 08:47 PM

So I'm standing there looking at this big hole where the engine goes and thinking...

What kind of engine would make a less than 1,500 pound car really haul ass?

Should I pick up a cheap chevy or a B13 rotory?

Sure would be easy to install all the plumbing.

Whata think?

Paul

Posted by: Eric Taylor Dec 6 2004, 08:54 PM

Man ury, you should just build a tube frame like brad's old POC racer at this point! Looks cool, how does it hold up in a wreck....
Eric

Posted by: URY914 Dec 6 2004, 09:15 PM

It's only a autox car, no race tracks.

It needs to withstand a cone hit.

Posted by: nebreitling Dec 6 2004, 09:43 PM

very cool. scary, but very cool.


i'm thinking twin motorcycle engines in a 1400 lbs 914....

Posted by: Andyrew Dec 7 2004, 02:14 AM

Rotary would make it lighter.... right?

sbc would well...

hehehe.... oh, boy... that would make the ferrari boys pee their pants...

I've been waiting to hear you talk about different engine's.....


Heck Im sure jake could make a nice 300 hp turbo....

Posted by: skline Dec 7 2004, 07:03 AM

How about a Q45 Infinity engine. All aluminum V8 with 275HP stock. 1400 pound car with that much power? 0 to 60 in 2.8 seconds. Hmmmm

Posted by: airsix Dec 7 2004, 12:12 PM

Subaru turbo 4cyl is 40lb lighter than a 2.0 TypeIV and 225hp stock. Easily 300hp with just boost and cutting out the cats. 400+hp if you go nuts. $650 + $150 shipping for a 30k mile import motor complete from throttlebody to turbo. Flat-four maintains your low CG too.

-Ben M.

ps - iron-block pushrod motors are for antiques.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 7 2004, 12:59 PM

Sounds like a winner. What about torque numbers?

Problem with the B13's, they have no torque to pull you out of the turns in an autox.

Posted by: Series9 Dec 7 2004, 01:01 PM

You guys know I prefer a Porsche flat six in my cars.

However, if these Subaru numbers are correct and you don't want to keep a Porsche motor in the car, then why in the hell would you even consider paying $8000 for a 190 hp T-IV (potential time-bomb) engine?

Adding water cooling to the car seems like a small price to pay for reliable, turbo charged, digitally fuel injected, factory power.

pps: all pushrod motors are for antiques.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 7 2004, 01:11 PM

I could easily sell all my type 4 parts (3 1/2 engines) and afford a flat/turbo'd rice burner.

I would have to repaint my car white witha big red ball on it.
And we're talking about this on Dec 7th.

Paul

Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 7 2004, 01:13 PM

keep it type 4 dude...

lookin good paul

Posted by: HarveyH Dec 7 2004, 01:16 PM

Just had an idea; in your efforts to lighten the car have you thought about drilling lightening holes or cutting slots in the carburator linkage crossbar? You could easily pick up several ounces with no real loss of mechanical strength...


Harvey

Posted by: URY914 Dec 7 2004, 01:17 PM

But I want horsepower.

(your shipment is going out today)

Paul

Posted by: URY914 Dec 7 2004, 01:19 PM

Harvey,

I have thought about drilling holes in everything but the driver.

Posted by: Series9 Dec 7 2004, 01:26 PM

No rice? Hmmm, maybe I misunderstood the options.

Since I would only go German in my cars, I would do a 1.8T if I were you.

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 7 2004, 01:33 PM

Cool Paul! I would love to see some of the finished tubes welded into place. My next projects will be adding a stiffening kit to my 914 and maybe even a few tube braces. So this rocks!

Posted by: Sammy Dec 7 2004, 02:48 PM

I'm holding my breath for the honda S2000 guys to start totalling their cars so I can grab an engine.
Imagine a light weight 4 cylinder engine that revvs to over 9500 rpm, with 240 hp stock, all mounted in a sub 2000# 914.
Add an aftermarket supercharger and it is well over 330 hp.
I love the idea of hitting 90 mph in 3rd with a stock 901

There's a local hot shoe that races at our AX in an S2000, is always in the top three TTOD and sometimes #1.

Scary to think what it would do if it weighed about 900 lbs. less.

Posted by: MattR Dec 7 2004, 02:55 PM

The S2000 engine is GUTLESS below 9k though. Thats how lots of those ricer motors are though. I cant stand the EJ20T. My friend has one in the sube and it feels like a 40hp bug until it hits the turbo, then it goes for about 1500 rpm and its all over. It seems like such a novelty.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 7 2004, 03:15 PM

S2000 motors & trans are regularly available on evilbay for around 5K.

I AX ed my Mr2 T once...in the rain.....didn't like it much.
AXing a turbo motored car would take some getting used to....even one that is a factory set-up. I spent WAAAAY to much time goin' sideways.

I watch pumped STI Subies that run is SCCA Street Mod. They are pretty much point & squirt....pretty damn quick, but they have 4WD, ABS, traction control....yada. HP is gud, but controllable HP is better.

Posted by: Sammy Dec 7 2004, 05:31 PM

Ayup, the S2000 is way down on torque until it hits the power band (still gets TTOD), but with a light car that wouldn't be as big of a deal, plus the supercharger would make up fer it.

When I AXd the turbo 914 is was fun: Set for turn in, get near apex, speedway through corner after boost hits, try to keep the tail lights pointed more than 90 degrees from the direction you want to go
I did back into a few corners but I backed out of em to make up fer it

The V8 car was the most fun fer AX. One guy walked up and asked me how I could get such a good time with my clutch slipping so bad out of all the corners.
I tole him it weren't the clutch slipping, it was the back tars

Posted by: jkeyzer Dec 7 2004, 05:51 PM

I drive an EJ20 every day.

They have no torque down low. Below 1500 they are totally gutless. I think someone here showed that they had ~70HP until you get above 2500 rpm. Above 3000 they really wake up and pull pretty much to redline. This is a completely stock engine.

I hear that you can remove the cats (especially the one before the turbo, whose idea was it to put one there??) and help the low end quite a bit. Higher boost will probably help too, or a resized turbo. I don't think it is hopeless but I think the stock EJ20 may not be so good in an autocross unless it is a very high speed course.

The 2.5 based turbo from the Sti, Legacy GT, etc has a ton of power from significantly lower rpms. That engine in stock form might be a lot better. I think the extra 0.5L of displacement helps a lot.

Posted by: MattR Dec 7 2004, 06:04 PM

The STI engine is entirely different then the EJ20T. The internals are beefed up significantly and they run different compression, heads, etc. Ive been in a stock WRX, a modified (with no cats) and an STI and personally they dont hold a candle to a 2.7 914-6, but possibly if one of those engines were in a 914 it could work. Just make sure to either keep the stock turbo (small) or get a smaller one for the Auto x course. I think they make too much boost too late, but then again I hate turbos .

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 7 2004, 06:32 PM

The 2.5 turbo is indeed a wonderful engine. My wife's Forester has one, and it makes that 4000lb station wagon really move from 2000rpm all the way up seamlessly. Zero lag. That engine would be wonderful in a 914.

Posted by: Mike T Dec 7 2004, 07:00 PM

Paul,

That looks outrageous! I'm looking forward to seeing it done and seeing how it changes your weight distribution.

Mike T

Posted by: URY914 Dec 7 2004, 08:04 PM

Mike, where have you been?

You have a V6 right?

Paul

Posted by: Racer Chris Dec 7 2004, 08:39 PM

You already have holes in your head Paul.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 7 2004, 10:13 PM

I really opened myself up for that one, didn't I?

Thanks Chris, but I won't be coming back to your shop this Christmas.
You need to come down here.

Paul

Posted by: airsix Dec 7 2004, 10:32 PM

"No power below 2,000rpm" - my answer to that is that I don't think that I've EVER seen less than 3,000rpm in an autocross from launch to finish. If you're in an autocross in a 914 and you're pulling at 2,000rpm you're in the wrong gear. Also, to say that the WRX doesn't feel that fast misses the point. We're talking about putting that engine in a car that weights HALF of what a stock WRX weighs. It would be fast. Blisteringly fast.

Ok... FINE. I'LL build one.

-Ben M.

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2004, 12:34 PM

Nope, not anymore, went V8 this year. It is awesome.


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Posted by: J P Stein Dec 8 2004, 12:41 PM

15# penalty for false posting

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2004, 12:47 PM

Crap, again...


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Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 8 2004, 12:48 PM

Holy crapoly! what size are those rear tires?

give us a rundown of the car

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 8 2004, 12:58 PM

Yes more detials please, that thing looks like a monster!

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2004, 02:42 PM

it's a 1975 tub still all steel except for the GT flares which are riveted on.
rear tires are 23.5x12.0-15 Hoosier R35 on 14"wide x 15" dia wheels. 5.5" backspace.
front tires are 22.5 x 9.0-15 on 10" wide by 15" dia. wheels with 4" B.S.

weltmeister 22mm front swaybar, 22mm swayaway T-bars, 250lb springs rear, Koni reds all around. Poly bushings with monoball upper front strut mounts. As Paul mentioned it was a V6 (2.8 Chevy) for 6 years and I had it working pretty well. Now with the V8 I'm starting the tuning process over. It's still pretty heavy and this winter I'm doing a lot of cutting.

The car is really too wide and I may try narrower rear wheels next season. 12" wide.

I have more pictures at home. I'll post later.

(Not trying to hijack your thread Paul)

Mike T

Posted by: URY914 Dec 8 2004, 03:54 PM

Keep it going Mike,

Tell me what kind of HP the 2.8 put out. What about a 4.3?

And tell us about your current V8.

You got me thinking....and that ain't good.

Paul

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 8 2004, 03:56 PM

Yeah, me too. Do I see a 914-8 project in my future? Hmm?

I haven't ever really seen a 2.8 that was any good, but have seen quite a few rockin 4.3's.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 8 2004, 04:01 PM

Holy shit, a V8 car that actually handles AND is used in competition......what'll they think of next?

Waay in the back of the book.....E Mod?

Posted by: Brett W Dec 8 2004, 07:10 PM

Snag one of the Lexus V8s. 250hp and 260 ftlbs stock. Ditch the crappy exhaust manifolds and free up the intake and you could easily go over 300 with almost no weight.

The suburu problem could be solved with a decent turbo, good exhaust and good intake plumbing. You could get torque without any trouble. A ball bearing turbo with a divorced wastegate and properly designed header and exhaust system would fix all of the problems.

For autocross I would look at the Scubby motor. Light and cheap. Good after market.

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2004, 08:01 PM

J. P.: It actually does handle pretty well if a bit ponderous. I can feel the extra weight of the V8 over the V6 even as I could feel the V6 added poundage over the 4 cyl. It's a bit more sluggish than I like but I think there is enough weight still in the car that, once removed, I can get it working well again. I still have steel doors and decklids...

The 2.8 was a very good engine. Light weight and the way I had it built it made good power. The car weighed 2140lbs with driver and when launched in 2nd gear reached 7200rpm in Just under 6 seconds.
It was an early '80's block with stock bore and stroke. a Crower solid lifter cam of .485" lift and 225° @ .050 duration with 112° lobe center. I had a ported Edelbrock TorkerII intake manifold, a 390cfm holley 4bbl w/vacuum secondaries and modified S-10 pickup headers. basically that's it. Made 175 hp. Maybe a bit more. There isn't much in the way of speed equipment for the 2.8 but there is enough to make a decent motor.
I used a KEP adapter and 200mm 2700lb clutch. The 2.8 has a wretched reputation with most people but I never had a bit of trouble with any of the 60° V6's I've owned especially this one.

The current engine is a temporary powerplant so I could just get out on track this year. It's a mid 1980's 305 with cast iron heads, a 4bbl and an unknown cam that I had under my bench slated for use in another project. I stuck it in the 914 just to get some autocross time again.
I started building an engine 2 years ago but tragedy struck when I lost my job in October of 2002. The engine project got tabled and the 914 lived on jackstands under a tarp in the garage for almost a year. I kept hope by reading this forum and researching the V8 swap. I've been working now since July of 2003 and started working on the car again in early summer. I used a lot of ideas and advice from here to build the car. I got back on track in July. I ran 8 events and garnered 4 FTD's which was nice but more importantly by the end of the season I got the car somewhat tuned in and actually got what I would consider a few fairly fast runs in.


The new engine is a rev happy 283 .030" over with aluminum heads. That will be in the car for next season. The current 305 is maybe 250hp and is wound tight at 5500rpm. I figure the 283 will be good for 7K easy if I want. The aluminum heads will take high weight off the engine where it needs to be taken off.

I'm looking forward to next season.

Mike T

Posted by: URY914 Dec 8 2004, 08:44 PM

I've been doing a little research, what do you think of these options

1. GM Quad 4: DOHC, all aluminum (light wt.), 190 HP stock. Friend down the street said he had one in his street car and it ran very strong. I would think a few easy mods would get up to 225-240 HP easy.

2. Chevy Vortex 4.3: Heavier than the Q4, cheap and parts everywhere, any one know the HP rating? Ebay has several low mile ones for less than $1000

Both would be avaible at a local yard, all the hop up parts are as close as the Summit website. I am not looking for 400 HP 'cause I'd need more tires and a new tranny.
200-250 HP in a 1400 pound car will be all the fun I need.

Give me some feed back.

Paul

Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 8 2004, 09:16 PM

SHO 24V 6

Posted by: URY914 Dec 8 2004, 09:34 PM

Cost and HP?

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2004, 10:44 PM

I always stuck with the carburator because I wasn't sure I could make an FI engine work in a swap. I think the quad4 is used in off road racing.

The 4.3 came in 150hp to 205hp depending on year of engine. Pretty heavy and the long stroke would be tough on the transaxle.

The final years of the SHO came with a 3.4L 60° V8. I kid you not. Now that would be cool...

Mike T


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Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2004, 10:50 PM

If you want to research engine cost and availability go to :

http://www.car-part.com

It's fun to play around with.


Mike T

Posted by: Brett W Dec 9 2004, 12:06 AM

Paul
I got all ya'll beat 250Hp for 250-300$. You can find the Lexus engine for cheap. i probably weighs less than than the 4.3 and has better potential. If you get the factory computer and all you should be able to get the whole thing running with it.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 9 2004, 12:19 AM

Cost? Beats me... they were $3k on a pallet brand new back in 89. Probably get a deal now-a-days from a yard.

HP - 220hp stock with plenty of goodies available to make close to 300hp.

Dual Plenum (short/long) runners with secondaries actuated by vacumm over 4k (can be modded/chipped for lower figure) 60deg. V6. Water jacket cooled. 24V Yamaha motor. Smooth as silk. Even powerband. Ripping ass engine that Ford basically used to explore multi-valve technology with. Top end is basically Yamaha V-Max technology.

My SHO was a 14 sec. 4-door sedan in stock config. (back in 89!)

Here's a pic.


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Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 9 2004, 12:24 AM

nudder


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Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 9 2004, 12:33 AM

Here's one tucked away in a hotrod...


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Posted by: Brett W Dec 9 2004, 12:43 AM

That SHO engine is an awesome engine. Heard it could rev to 10K in stock form if it weren't for the accesories. Yamaha did a great job on that engine. I would love to play with one of those in something small and light. How about a Lotus 7 chassis with one in it.

Posted by: MJHanna Dec 9 2004, 07:23 AM

Look at the North Star engines a lot of dune buggies are running them, all aluminum, high output……

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 9 2004, 07:48 AM

There was a short lived "supercar" based on the SHO engine. It was a Ford Festiva with the Tarus SHO drivetrain mounted in the rear of the car. Ford it it for Rally and hillclimb, and had to build an bunch as street cars to meet the rules. Scary fast car. Didn't handle too well, though.

Posted by: synthesisdv Dec 9 2004, 08:16 AM

Paul,

Can you get it that light with one of these bigger motors?

Even with an aluminum 6 you still have to add radiator, plumbing, etc.

I think you'll be above 1500 even if you keep cutting sheetmetal unless you go to a rotary or keep the TIV.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 9 2004, 08:42 AM

Dave,

I was saying the car now would be 1400 but probably more like 1200 w/o engine.

I agree with Tim that the FI may be a problem on a oddball engine swap. Once you start messing with a late model FI engine you'll need to sort out the wire harness and the rest of the pieces. A SHO or Lexis would be more high tech than my low tech car.
The words "simple swap" really don't apply with these.

Let me watch Larry and his 928 swap. Maybe thats the way to go to keep it all in the P-car family. How many 914/928 engined semi-tube frame autox cars are out there? Think they'd let me run it at PCA Parade? I'd be run out of the club if I showed up

Paul

Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 9 2004, 09:37 AM

Yeah... it was a 10k motor. When they tested them they ran it for something like a week straight at 9k. It was rev limited for the accessories. I've always thought it would make the "perfect" 914 conversion motor.

At the very first SHO convention in Peoria there was a guy who had one in some Ferrari looking mid-engine thing with a 914 tranny.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 9 2004, 09:39 AM

Yup. Leno has one. Fiesta under glass with huge rear flares ala. the Renault's.

Posted by: SteveSr Dec 9 2004, 09:49 AM

Awsome Paul. MY GOD, the whole back of the car is gone!!!!!!
All aluminum V6..........IMO.....

SteveSr

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 9 2004, 12:02 PM

I'm pretty sure the SHO Festiva was made by Chuck Beck, of 550 Beck Spyder fame. No official involvement from Ford. They never got it as sorted as they'd like, mostly because of difficulties in getting the fwd suspension working on the back (just moved the whole thing: engine, transaxle, axles, uprights, brakes, etc. from front to back). It made some magazine appearances as the SHOgun, and perhaps they even sold a few, but it was never a hot sales item.

Perhaps Ford did their own project, though I'd expect it was done by Ford UK, not Ford US. Hillclimbs have never been the thing here they are over there, nor has rallying.

Posted by: maf914 Dec 9 2004, 12:16 PM

I remember this as all of the car mags had articles about it. Neat idea, sort of a copy of the mid-engined Renault R5 turbo but not quite as sophisticated.

Posted by: maf914 Dec 9 2004, 12:22 PM

That looks like a Midget or Sprite. Nice installation!

Check out that single circuit master cylinder. Wonder how well that thing stops with those old brakes?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 9 2004, 12:31 PM

1990 Engine Ford Taurus 3.0L;5SP;4DR SDN;SHO;1-90;411 LH0459 $500

Not a bad price for a SHO motor...

Posted by: SteveSr Dec 9 2004, 02:50 PM

Paul,I'm putting a GM 3.1 with factory fuel injection in mine,it's a 1991 from a chevy corsica and makes 140HP. The boys over at 60degreev6.com have been really helpful on how to hot rod it.
I'm doing what is called a top end swap,installing a later model upper& lower intake, heads,bigger throttlebody and after market cam,ECM tune and headers. And they say that will get me in the 180-200 Hp range. We'll see.......and hey! our cars ARE antiques!!!!

SteveSr

Posted by: URY914 Dec 9 2004, 03:14 PM

Steve,
Very intresting...

Why did you go with a 3.1? Is it all aluminum?
What is your final price going to be?

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 9 2004, 03:22 PM

Pretend I know nothing.

But if you use a "V" engine of any sorts, doesn't that put wieght up higher increasing lateral pull? Wouldn't the prime engine be of a flat design? Flat 4 or 6? Maybe it isn't that noticable?

Posted by: scott thacher Dec 9 2004, 03:53 PM

subaru svx motor 3.3 liter 240 hp stock, have heard it can handle 300 hp easy with just a few mods. obd I fi is easy to convert handles spark and fuel probably wieghs 50 pounds more than a type IV not including rad. adapter plate is avalible from kennedy. awesome flat torque curve

Posted by: URY914 Dec 9 2004, 08:25 PM

Alright, here is another WAI (wild ass idea),

How about keeping it in the P-car family with a 944 Turbo?


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Posted by: URY914 Dec 9 2004, 08:26 PM

Wouldn't this look cool!!!

At least it would say PORSCHE on it.


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Posted by: seanery Dec 9 2004, 09:07 PM

Paul,
I've thought about that one myself.

Posted by: Series9 Dec 9 2004, 09:16 PM

Big time. I had a 425hp 951 in Florida. That is an awesome engine. I even checked on some tranny options for that install, but it never went anywhere.

When I set up a track car, a 951 engine is on the short list.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 9 2004, 09:37 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7940458608&rd=1

They're right up the road in Jax.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 9 2004, 09:39 PM

PRETTY...


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Posted by: Andyrew Dec 10 2004, 12:55 AM

What about intercooler and radiator and such?

450hp is easy.. But not a whole bunch of power under 3k.... (drive 2 regularly....)

From what I understand, they Are pretty heavy ...Even for being aluminum...(big crank I hear..)



You got that much money to spend????

Ouch... Heck why not..

Andrew

Posted by: URY914 Dec 10 2004, 07:33 AM

No I don't but a guy can dream. If I run into a guy that knows of a 944t that has an engine for sale for $200 I'll take it. Until that happens I got enough parts to build a +/- 175 HP Type IV. So I'll be doing that.

Its a power vs. weight vs. cost vs. constructablity issue. Once I get the semi-tube frame and body completed I want to be able to drive it. Not spend my time trying to get some wild ass engine swap to work.

Paul

Posted by: SteveSr Dec 10 2004, 12:00 PM

Paul,here is what Ihave so far.....
1.$400.00 for the doner car (complete with engine harness and ECM)
2. $455 to KEP for adapter & flywheel machining
3.$300.00 for top end swap (heads,upper & lower intakes,timing cover,valve covers)
4.$250.00 for after market cam
Then I will need to freshen up the engine and build some headers and add exhaust. And what ever it will cost to do the heads.
There is a guy an hour from me that said he could re-burn my chip also.
I'm probably leaving some things out, but you get the idea. Unfortunatlly the block is iron and the heads and intake setup are aluminum. KEP claims it weighs 85lbs more than the flat four.
Here are a couple of pics of the engine and trans axle.........

SteveSr


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Posted by: SteveSr Dec 10 2004, 12:01 PM

and one more......


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Posted by: SteveSr Dec 10 2004, 02:51 PM

Paul,I forgot to answer your first question......the engine was readly availible to me,my son had the car, it had been hit in the left front so it was easy. I have always liked this engine it make good smooth power with the factory injection always starts,idles smoothly,parts are cheap and it can be hopped up easily.
And it is the same length as the 914-4.

SteveSr

Posted by: Randal Dec 10 2004, 06:33 PM

My local mechanic has two Maserati Bi Turbo cars for sale. One is a parts car, but both engines run.

260HP twin turbo, twin intercolers, in a very small package.

Wonder if they would fit?