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Posted by: siverson Sep 19 2013, 03:20 PM

I tried extending a thread on the originality forum, but not much luck there:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=152778

Anyone have photos of an original or 100% properly restored 914-6 showing the rear fender wells and bottom side of the rear trunk? It seems like black undercoating is never right as it was just applied by the dealers or ports (or something), and besides it's ugly.

So, it seems like the good options for these areas appears to be:

1. metal -> primer -> body color paint

2. metal -> primer -> grey PVC undercoating

3. metal -> primer -> grey PVC undercoating -> body color paint

Or ?

-Steve

Posted by: Eric_Shea Sep 19 2013, 03:28 PM

I thought it was conclusive from that thread what was stock on a six.

#2 with some overspray for a #3 effect.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 19 2013, 03:49 PM

Posted by: siverson Sep 19 2013, 04:01 PM

So the bottom of the trunk floor should primarily be grey, with over spray just from painting some areas. Like this... ?

Body color:

- upper engine compartment
- lower engine compartment
- front & rear fender wells
- rockers

Grey with overspray:

- bottom of rear trunk (above transmission)
- bottom of floor (i.e. the majority of the bottom of the car)
- bottom of front trunk floor (around the a-arms)

Is that right? I just don't think I've ever seen a photo of a 914 or 914-6 that was primarily grey on the bottom... ?

-Steve

Posted by: siverson Sep 19 2013, 04:05 PM

And to confirm, this is never done:

> 1. metal -> primer -> body color paint

There should be grey PVC everywhere, and then some areas are painted. Right?

-Steve

Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 19 2013, 05:05 PM

pvc--
under rear trunk
under front trunk
wheel wells x4
engine compartment gets some= overspray

color--
everywhere
lower half of engine gets overspray

every six I have owned has the black undercoat--thin
floor bottom
trunks bottom
wheel wells x 4
engine bay lower half overspray




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Posted by: siverson Sep 20 2013, 02:43 PM

Great, thanks.

Is the "grey PVC" still available? Or what's the best modern replacement?

-Steve

Posted by: siverson Sep 20 2013, 05:10 PM

Just saw this answer on the bird board:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/772551-repairing-gray-pvc-undercoat.html

-Steve

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 20 2013, 08:09 PM

Don't forget #4: leaked-out oil.



--DD

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 20 2013, 08:48 PM

I just posted over on the bird. 3M makes a gray rocker guard in aerosol. 08889 is the product #. It matches the small texture of the factory coating pretty well. I have some I will be using on Sandy's car as a touch up to the factory looking gray coating under the car and in the wheel wells.

Posted by: rudedude Sep 21 2013, 08:01 AM

Wurth has a special gun for their product that works really well if you are doing large areas

Posted by: McMark Sep 21 2013, 09:46 AM

I have this seam sealer gun from Wurth and haven't found the correct combination of settings the replicate the pebble finish quite as perfectly as I would like to.

Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 21 2013, 09:55 AM

911 have the pebble finish ..914's PVC is pretty smooth with orange peel and sags here and there.

Posted by: Garland Sep 21 2013, 11:22 PM

I agree, after cleaning off the black underside of my 72 - 4, this is what I found.
Underside:

Wheel housing:


Floor pan:

Under body:

Paint close And the dove gray primer:

Seam sealer

Posted by: OmaPossu Sep 22 2013, 06:54 AM

I have asked Porsche Classic for help to have correct painting to my six. It took 3 months to have answer and it was: Please tell your 914:s VIN.

And now waiting again..

Posted by: puffinator Sep 22 2013, 06:57 AM

What did you use to clean off the black underside stuff?

Posted by: Garland Sep 22 2013, 07:58 AM

Patience and lots of time!

First I used a putty knife

Second a razor blade

Then lots of shop towels and body solvent.

The wheel housings with all the seams, welds and edges where the undercoat guy tried so hard to cover was the biggest challenge.

Now do I paint, or just toich up and seal with body wax? Almost hate to cover it up, but want to protect the bottom.

Thinking paint bottom before color to gain this effect.

The original body color is silver as seen in the wheel housings. Looking into color match for underbody primer color.

Posted by: rstover Sep 23 2013, 08:49 AM

Is there a classic Volkswagen site where this primer could be found?[attachmentid=412592] [attachmentid=412592]

Posted by: Ferg Sep 23 2013, 11:39 AM

John do you have a thread on that car? Looks fantastic!

Posted by: Garland Sep 23 2013, 08:52 PM

Soon I will start posting, I started this one 10 years ago, and stalled for about 8, but now back on track.

Posted by: racerbvd Sep 23 2013, 09:42 PM

I talked to the head of restoration for PC at Parade a few years back, and he wasn't sure either, Prescott Kelly some people in a German 914 club, and the answers were still confusing,
1st Porsche had an agreement with VW NOT to undercoat the 914-6s, but through VWOA, they could have them undercoated after they came into the port(and some were better than others, so there were different colors & quality of the work) .

2nd Even though the 914-6s because of the agreement with VWOA[/b] WERE NOT suppose to have undercoating, yet one National PCA concours 914 guru picked his Six up, from the port, directly off the ship, and it had undercoating, and ours also appears to have come from the factory with it. The guy who picked up his Brand New Six from the port LOST a concours because his car was undercoated (and this is when the cars were new) to another six that wasn't. Since there is no documentation from Porsche stating that they undercoated any of the Sixes, and the VWOA agreement, I was told that if I wanted to be "correct" even if my car actually came from the factory with the undercoating, not to redo it

I'm posting some pix of concours cars (including the early 911 that Porsche classic did) so you can see a glimpse the bottom & fender wells..


Look at the 914s in the background, notice the wheel wells.


Again, look at the wheel wells.


Here is a top & bottom picture of the early 911 restored by Porsche..




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Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 24 2013, 02:43 PM

That is not enough proof, every six I have ever had or cut up has had the thin undercoat, per my picture of the green -6, that I am 2nd owner of.
Metallic 914-6's maybe different, because of the 2 part piant..

Posted by: racerbvd Sep 24 2013, 04:35 PM

Well, I researched it talking to friends what were worked for Brumos when the Sixes were new, talked to the PCA's 914 guru at length, talked to other friends who do concours Porsche restorations and raced & wrenched when the Sixes were racing IMSA, ect, ect, ect, and it is clear that our Six also came with undercoating, but talking to the PCA concours weenies (the old ones, not the boxster breed currently judging) and I posted the results and what I was told and what I was told that I needed to do if I wanted to be competitive at "Parade" level. I sure wish they told me that they recognized that some 914-6s did indeed come from Porsche (not the port, where it will would show up on the dealer paperwork and varies in color and quality, so I was told) with the undercoating, as scraping off the factory undercoating was a major PITA and having the bodywork to make the bottom look perfect is very $$$$.. If you can find concrete info (and I have been told this is the single biggest issue concerning what is "correct" on the bottom of a "Six" for decades) it would help others do the right thing & maybe save some money. I posted the question on multiple boards and still, what I posted was the most info I could find out on the subject.


My engine




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Posted by: McMark Sep 25 2013, 04:44 PM

We're talking about two things here. In my experience, four cylinder cars have paint sprayed directly on the metal on the bottom side of the car, just like a fender. On the Sixes (and early 911s) there is a layer of seam sealer (white and flexible) before the paint went on. After that some cars where undercoated after paint, which is what Byron is talking about.

Posted by: scotty b Sep 25 2013, 08:11 PM

This was answered in the weenie forum so why i it here ?

FIRST 6's were done in the same factory as the 911 and had the SAME PVC undercoating the 911's did. I posted pics of this in the CW thread. I also posted many pics of the underside of Cairo's car in his build thread. His underside was one of the cleanest most original ones I have seen, even still had the factory gold overspray under the aftermarket black coating.


1 bare metal
2 grey primer
3 PVC undercoating
4 overspray from body painting


Mark, I also have that gun and can't get it " just right " I just recently got the BIG gun from WURTH that is supposedly the correct one for duplicating the factory finish. I'll post results once I get time to play with it.

Also, WURTH SKS has for years been the go to for factory undercoating, but recently they stopped selling it in grey and now only sell it in black I have found another brand that is in the proper grey, and will be trying it with the new gun. This stuff is also half the price of SKS and was recommended to me by a Ferrari restorer. I'll try and remember to take some pics of both tomorrow

Posted by: 914forme Sep 25 2013, 08:25 PM

Please do, I need a bunch of this for my current project and have been hoping to find SKS gray on someones shelf, yet to find it. But if this stuff works just as well then Im in.

Posted by: scotty b Sep 27 2013, 06:17 PM

Gun, new coating ( I have yet to try either ) and a piece of original undercoating from a 6.


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Posted by: McMark Sep 27 2013, 07:37 PM

I have that gun as well. Sprayed SKS Stoneguard with it on a 911T. I was really happy with the results on that. Which actually lend credence to my theory that the seam sealer I'm trying to spray is just too thick/sticky to pebble correctly.

Posted by: rudedude Sep 27 2013, 07:45 PM

That's the gun I used restoring my 1970 911S to get the correct "finish".
It took a while but looks very close. I used wurth grey before it wasn't available. My original 914/6 doesn't have quite the same finish on the floor pan that the 911 does but the fender wells are very similar and coated with black undercoat that over the years I have been able to chip away to the original paint. Looks much better that way.

Posted by: scotty b Sep 27 2013, 08:10 PM

What are you using ? I've shot both Wurth and Fusor through the other gun and couldn't get either to match. Like you said, it seems like the product is too thick for the orifice, but once you get the pressure to where it will put it out, it's near impossible to get the right texture without getting a ton of material

Posted by: McMark Sep 27 2013, 09:30 PM

Previously I tried:
0893228 SPRAY SEAMSEALER GREY URETHANE

I just order some of this to try, although I don't expect it to act any differently.
08909230 SPRAY SEAMSEAL BEIGE RUBBER BASED

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 28 2013, 07:48 AM

I hope this gets worked out soon....I am hoping that my Six is going to be getting some seam sealer and undercoating soon.

Posted by: Jeff Hail Sep 28 2013, 01:35 PM

Trying to get that "magic" compromise that looks oem is a challenge. Agree the sprayable seam sealer is very thick. To get it to pebble you have to play with the air pressure and material volume adjustment... to the point where it actually spits and is just short of atomizing. One tip is soaking the tubes in hot water before you apply to thin them out. I agree it still wont pebble the way we want to it. The amount of material required if going the sprayable sealer route is in cases of tubes.

The pic is sprayable sealer only with epoxy over it. It was done using very low pressure (spitting). 1 tube to do just an outer long gets pricy. I'm not going for originality on mine so the area applied is for preservation not accuracy.



Another tip is to use a final coat of SKS over the sprayable sealer. You will get a pebble/ orange peel appearance much closer to the factory coating. I don't have a pic but it works and looks very accurate.


Another thing to consider: If you paint over the coatings the appearance will lean to the side of thick orange peel texture after the base is applied (wet on texture)


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Posted by: scotty b Sep 28 2013, 06:16 PM

RIGHT :

No idea what the pressure was but it was LOW. Fluid almost all the way open, ( just before getting a solid stream ). You have to get kind of of close, and move slow, but it gets the result. I will also add this gun had set long enough the old SKS had started to set up so there are some hard pieces in it. I'll also add this was on a vertical surface. Horizontal would be a bit tricky as this stuff is on the thin side and will want to droop

LEFT :

Higher pressure, further distance, got too smooth. Any more fluid openeing ( I think this is actually closing the orifice, despite the knob coming out ) and it gets a really small grainy pattern





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Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 28 2013, 06:32 PM

Nice Scat !!!

Posted by: McMark Sep 28 2013, 06:52 PM

That's my complete setup as well.


That's looking pretty good. Gonna have to check that stuff out.

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 28 2013, 07:36 PM

I did a rotisserie 356 many years ago. I ended up thinning a generic brand of body Shultz with lacquer thinner to get a spray-able match through a Body Shultz gun to the factory look. I wish I could remember what brand I used.

That Wurth gun looks nice! Don't have one.=$

Posted by: Jeff Hail Sep 28 2013, 08:08 PM

Scotty B's is nicer and has 10 HP more due to the red anodizing. I'm jealous!

The multi sprayer is cool because it also has the fittings and extension hoses for cavity wax. I like it due to its flexibility.

Wurth makes a Shutz gun for use with the larger bottles, Waxing external panels and Stone Guard like VW does on current models. I have one but have never used it for that purpose. It does have a high output adjustable nozzle which may work better at lower pressure for that pebble peel look. Have to give it a try to see if it has other than Shutz use


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Posted by: McMark Sep 30 2013, 09:26 AM

Just be sure you're done with welding before adding cavity wax. That stuff is flammable and once it ignites it's pretty hard to put out.

Not that I know...

Posted by: Jeff Hail Sep 30 2013, 10:17 PM

Yep -shop brew napalm candles.

Posted by: siverson Nov 11 2013, 07:31 PM

I just stumbled on these photos so I thought I'd share here.

The "in progress" photo actually looks like a pretty good shot of what the factory coating should look like (white/grey in the middle areas), but then it was "over restored" to yellow everywhere. Is that right?

-Steve





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Posted by: McMark Nov 11 2013, 07:32 PM

Yellow everywhere is right, except just a dusting. Full, solid paint is, as you said, over-restored.

Posted by: siverson Nov 11 2013, 07:33 PM

The yellow car is this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-914-914-6-1970-porsche-914-6-blue-plate-ca-car-matching-s-250-hp-yellow-x-2-engines-trans-/190957433603?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2c75f33303&item=190957433603&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

-Steve

Posted by: siverson Nov 11 2013, 07:41 PM

And to add my opinion - I really don't mind the "over-restored, color everywhere" look. I think it looks nice, protects better, and is probably how the factory would have done it if they weren't in a hurry.

Now the thick, ugly black undercoating that was then often sprayed on top of the color - that is ugly.

-Steve

Posted by: racerbvd Nov 11 2013, 08:12 PM

What about this one??

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Nov 11 2013, 09:00 PM

I have access to an original, one owner six. It has won many PCA Concours awards at the Parade over the years and is one of the nicest original sixes in the country. I checked with the owner as to what was on it from the factory. It has the grey PVC undercoating, then full coverage body color, then the dealer had put black undercoating on over that.

I can get photos at some point if people want to see it.

Posted by: Garland Nov 11 2013, 10:08 PM

See prior post for before pictures.

It's not a 6 but here is what I went with. Wurth white alloy, Wurth clear lacquer.

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 11 2013, 10:11 PM

Posted by: OmaPossu Nov 12 2013, 07:05 AM

Thats exactly how Porsche Classic answered me when asking how to paint my -six original way.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 12 2013, 07:23 AM

When Scotty shoots my Six the bottom will get full coverage body color.

Posted by: puffinator Dec 14 2013, 09:26 AM

After spending an inordinate amount of time removing the black undercoat from my -6 I didn't find a gray color undercoat, it is more of a yellow/beige. The primer is a light gray but not the undercoat. Does the factory gray undercoat age to this yellow/beige color? My underside looks the same as the piece Scotty had in an earlier post side by side with a gray blob of new undercoat. Are there any products that are close to the yellow/beige undercoat?

Posted by: scotty b Dec 14 2013, 09:35 AM

I think there is either some color change over time or they used a different color. Cairo's car actually had some pieces that looked beige and some looked more grey. A 73 S I'm also doing looks more grey. It has 43,000 original miles. I'm looking at a new system and will report back after the first of the year. the rep was supposed to come out this week, and called yesterday to say it won't be until after the first. He swears I will be able to match ANY texture perfectly. I've also been talking to a Ferrari restoring that is having the same issue now that SKS is only in black. He had the same results I did with the U-Pol Gravi-tex. Looked great when sprayed but layed down too smooth overnight so it's a no go