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Posted by: trekkor Dec 15 2004, 05:51 PM

Does this mount solid or should I be using rubber mounts like the 911 sport mount on my trans?

Thanks

KT

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 15 2004, 06:00 PM

You can do it both ways , but most use the the 911 rubber mounts. Solid there is a lot more noise transmitted.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 15 2004, 06:10 PM

Just got off the phone with Jim Patrick. Same answer.
Mounts are coming.

KT

Posted by: ! Dec 15 2004, 06:10 PM

Ask Steve Iverson about the customer service on his bar that failed....ask ME how much I would rather blow Hitler than buy anything from Patrick.....

Posted by: brant Dec 15 2004, 06:12 PM

trekkor,

I was just about to warn you that mikez was going to see this if you didn't delete it soon...

oh well....

Posted by: ! Dec 15 2004, 06:16 PM

Hey...next time ya call him tell I said hi..... :finger2:

Posted by: Britain Smith Dec 15 2004, 06:40 PM

You should use the WEVO engine mounts. I have some nice SPORT mounts around here somewhere.

-Britain

Posted by: ! Dec 15 2004, 06:48 PM

Yummy.....WEVO makes some nice looking stuff....

Posted by: ynotdd Dec 15 2004, 08:11 PM

Jim Patrick is a dick!!!!!!!

Posted by: 9146986 Dec 15 2004, 08:49 PM

So does your smilies mean you think he's #1???

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 15 2004, 08:50 PM

"Sod that for a game of soldiers!" (Sorry, forget where the quote is from.)

Go with the Rich Johnson mount, all the way!!

--DD

Posted by: 9146986 Dec 15 2004, 08:52 PM

I respectfully disagree. Solid mounts transmit loads of vibrations. Richard Parr the PMO guy has posted a detailed dissertation in some of his advertising that says it's not a good idea for a engine with carbs. If it was a race car, maybe.

Posted by: TimT Dec 15 2004, 08:56 PM

The skinny is that Parr of PMO published that because his carbs were having vibration related problems. I know guy that removed the PMO's from his car, put Webers back on and hasnt had a problem since.

now back to the motor mount stuff

Posted by: TimT Dec 15 2004, 09:00 PM

I forgot to use "allegedly"

Posted by: Series9 Dec 15 2004, 09:00 PM

Patrick bar with 911 rubber sport mounts:


Attached image(s)

Posted by: JOHNMAN Dec 15 2004, 09:14 PM

Yech,

Where did you get that worn out dirty ass junkyard engine from?

(Actually I just dislike the bar)

Posted by: slivel Dec 15 2004, 09:28 PM

914RS,

Hope your Patrick bar works better than mine did. I bent three of them before giving up and going to a Vellios mount. Granted this was a track application but nevertheless the bar bent and I wondered why it was so hard to shift gears - the engine had dropped enough to contact the shilft rod. In fairness to Patrick, this was in 1997 and may have been early in his development of that product. The bar in your photo looks larger than the one I had (from memory). Good luck.

Steve

Posted by: Series9 Dec 15 2004, 09:39 PM

I've heard some bad stories about the early bars, but none about this version. I don't see how it could fail in some of the smaller six applications, but since mine is not small, I will be keeping any eye on it.

I'm quite confident that I can reinforce it to handle the power if it becomes necessary.

I'll also say, that although some dislike Jim Patrick (you'd think he killed MikeZ's dog or something), he has been nothing but attentive, responsive and respectful to my suggestions and concerns. I have to judge individuals based on my personal experience.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 15 2004, 09:58 PM

I'm using the same stout bar like 914RS.
I like the simple light wieght, yet, strong design.
It's built like a motorcycle frame.

Bill Pickering had one just like it in his 2.7 SIX race car.
He would get on two wheels and really pound on that car.
He couldn't bend it.

Bill had great things to say about Jim Patrick.
I spoke to him today for the first time. He was busy and it was the end of the day. He didn't hurry me off, answered my parade of questions and was polite to me.

I told him I liked his website and he said "Thanks".
What more could you ask for?

KT

Posted by: siverson Dec 15 2004, 10:08 PM

Yes, Patrick Motorsports is not my favorite vendor.

Obviously you're welcome to try the bar, but the engine is much less stable with this bar than with a factory-style center mount. The engine is going to bounce and twist until the bar breaks. Fortunately, It's not a totally catastrophic failure though, because my bar broke and then just bent down until the engine weight was supported by the shift rod. It made it difficult to shift.

I'll post pictures in a bit...

-Steve

Posted by: 9146986 Dec 15 2004, 10:08 PM

Jim seems like a nice enough guy, and I don't really have anything against him. However he's has put some products out there that needed more development.
The engine bars are one of them.

I purchased a rear caliper spacer kit that he used to sell, and the fasteners were wrong, and the seals that he supplied with the kit weren't compatible with brake fluid. The seals lasted about a year and a half, and then went bad and started leaking brake fluid.

I did purchase one of his engine bars, and it's still working. He didn't tell me that you had to modify factory heat exchangers to work with it though. I would talk with him before doing any modifications to that bar. IIRC it is stress relieved and heat treated.

The thing I didn't like about the bar is that you can feel the engine bounce when you go over bumps. I'm sure the chrome moly is strong enough, but like an airframe it flexes. I was totally unaware of any failures when I had my car with a 3.0 and his bar, but I can't say I didn't have any concerns.

Posted by: siverson Dec 15 2004, 10:42 PM

Bouncy bar eventually breaks:

















-Steve

Posted by: trekkor Dec 15 2004, 10:50 PM

Those pics look like bad welds. Maybe incompatable wire?
I wonder if that is the problem. I guess I'll find out for myself.

The "feel" *should* be the same, as it attatches to the same mounts as the FOUR.

KT

Posted by: trekkor Dec 15 2004, 10:59 PM

Wow

Those pics are more than welds. The mount plate is tearing away from the bar.

Steve, were you using solid mounts? How old is the bar?

I'm going to go look at my bar and see if it is built differently

KT

Posted by: JOHNMAN Dec 15 2004, 11:01 PM

We made our mount that welds to the lower firewall. We had heard that all of the 6 mount bars that use the 4-cyl mount locations will flex as they cantilever to support the front of the 6-cyl motor.

The next mount I'm going to fabricate will resemble one that someone makes or use to make. This style of mount uses a cut down 911 engine mount bar and mounts to the firewall in 2 spots instead of the single point (like original 6's and my original mount). I forget who makes that mount, but when it first came out it was virtually identical to what I had thought up after creating the one we use now with our 3.2.

Posted by: siverson Dec 15 2004, 11:06 PM

> Those pics look like bad welds. Maybe incompatable wire?

It didn't crack on the weld. The metal just weakened and "tore" apart.

> were you using solid mounts?

No, 911 sport mounts (rubber).

> The "feel" *should* be the same, as it attatches to the same mounts as the FOUR.

Except the four bar is thick steel, much stronger, and holding a much lighter engine (I used this on a 3.6).

This broke ~5 years ago or so. The bar was only about a year old when it broke (< 10,000 miles). At the time, despite having a "new design" of the bar and several other failures, Jim told me it was probably installation error or misuse.

-Steve

Posted by: Series9 Dec 15 2004, 11:07 PM

Those pictures definitely give me food for thought.

Like I said, I'll be watching it. Worst case, I get to

Posted by: trekkor Dec 15 2004, 11:16 PM

Thanks again for the pics. that's the first time I've seen the damage. And up close. Good.


My bar is the same as far as I can see.
I wonder if some welding can be done to beef up the bar at the points of stress. Perhaps a larger diameter half pipe over the weak spots.

I hope mine doesn't fail.

So PMS won't stand behind their product?

KT

Posted by: maf914 Dec 16 2004, 08:47 AM

I don't have a six, but I find this topic interesting. The fact that the bar is cantilevered forward will add a lot of twisting forces to the bar and hangers. Imagine the forces not only at the broken mounting brackets but at the hanger bolts during acceleration and hard shifting. Like Steve said the stock bar for the T4 is strong and heavy, but it is also carries the load vertically, without torsion. Make sure you use high grade hardware with that bar.

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 16 2004, 09:04 AM

So far, I have not had that problem with the moly mounts. That picture sort of freaks me out though! Is that rust I see? So is that an early steal bar? Looking at that picture, it looks like it didn't have much to do with the torque of the engine so much is it bouncing around. None of this will make me pull out my moly mount though. Until I see something happen to any of the bars I have used, I will continue to use them. I don't have any issues with PM, he has done well with what I have ordered from him so far.

Zois, did you have the moly mount in your old white 3.0? What's your beef with Patrick? Just wondering so I don't get burned myself someday.

Posted by: Kerrys914 Dec 16 2004, 09:07 AM

me see no photo

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 16 2004, 09:41 AM

You don't want to Kerry, it is not a pretty sight.

Actually, this brings to light I want to start devolping my bulkhead mount again. I have a jig for making the cross bar, and can do those, but seems like the bulk head system just works better. I know a few people out there already make them, but dang, $400 for a mount seems a little steap. There has to be a way to make them for less.

Posted by: brant Dec 16 2004, 09:48 AM

Johnman,

do you mean this mount..
its the "other" patrick mount..

I've heard very good things about it on track cars.
plus it allows the motor to swivel down, for valve adjustments or install/removal.

brant


Attached image(s)

Posted by: ! Dec 16 2004, 10:05 AM

All of my /6 mounts are bulkhead ones and have been from Rich Johnson.

I have torn down a number of /6 projects that were hack jobs back when I was actively parting out unfinished project cars.....at the beginning of the 914 internet family....I was finding unfinished projects and picking them up for $.05 on the dollar. I even snagged a running converted sixer out from under Bradholio's nose in his backyard once....towed it home and sold some, kept some.

It was fun while it lasted. Too many other people are doing it now and the competition makes it unlikely to make any money AND get free parts like I used to...

Anyways...the quick six mounts and the Patrick mounts have issues....flex, low clearance and lack of accountability from the seller/makers are the big part of my bitchiness....the fact that Steve got hosed bugs me as well.

I WILL not sell/give away a used mount unless it is a bulkhead one....I toss all of them in the shitcan.

As to my animosity towards Jim Patrick.....it involved a phone call back when I was a newbie and doing my first conversion. He treated me shabbily and I heard a few things over the years....never met him, don't wanna meet him, and don't plan on burying the hatchet anywhere except somewhere that hurts....there are too many nice guys on the net and in my backyard to have to deal with an asshole.

I know "I" can be crusty....but I will give the shirt of my back to help someone and stand behind every one of my deals to make to it right....I have taken back parts, paid shipping both ways and done total refunds. I have given away stuff that to me is junk but can be a rare find to someone else.....but if "I" think something is worthwhile...I can be a hardnosed trader as well.

I like hanging with the 914 crowd as they are generally a little looser in attitude than the 911 crowd....the 356 weenies make my butt puckeer. I only play with them to piss them off....

Well...that's enuff about that...

Posted by: Kerrys914 Dec 16 2004, 10:12 AM

This is an interesting topic..

If the tranny mounts and engine mounts are in good shape would one expect to have that much movment to cause a failure?

Isn't the weight of the engine and tranny also carried by the tranny mounts?

Maybe I need to take a look at the install again but I just don't see that much movement in the system to cause failure with all the mounts in good shape.

Posted by: john rogers Dec 16 2004, 10:19 AM

I used the new Patrick mount when we put the six in my race car and it has worked great. When I talked to Jim he said not to use the original mount as it was a design to try to make the six conversion an easy bolt in and it was just too flexible and would fail.

Posted by: brant Dec 16 2004, 10:43 AM

John Rogers...

yep there are multiple colorado race cars running the patrick bulkhead with very good results.

brant

Posted by: ! Dec 16 2004, 11:05 AM

Then as a reputable business person he should admit it and buy them back or give credit towards a new one.

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 16 2004, 11:14 AM

Posted by: Randal Dec 16 2004, 11:16 AM

That bar looks like something TC Design would make and I must say that Tony absolutely stands behind his work.

You should call him Trekkor. In any event he'll have opinions that would be valuable as to how best to proceed.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 16 2004, 11:18 AM

Yeah , I have a brand new one still in the box,never opened . I took in trade , For parts, I thought about calling Patrick to see if I could trade up. WTF am I going to do with it now!!!!!!!

I,ll call him and see.

Posted by: Kerrys914 Dec 16 2004, 11:28 AM

Keep us posted...

Is there a limit on engine size and the bars use? I mean will a 2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.7 have enough HP to really tweak these bars?

Given the options costs out there for engine mounts the bar seems like a good option for a smaller six engine conversion. Granted if you decide to go bigger you have to deal with this issue but for a smaller six???

Cheers

Posted by: siverson Dec 16 2004, 11:34 AM

> When I talked to Jim he said not to use the original mount as it was a design to try to make the six conversion an easy bolt in and it was just too flexible and would fail.

When I talked to them he said he wouldn't do anything, and couldn't offer credit towards a new redesigned bar or anything. That's pretty poor after spending $3k+ there. Maybe I just caught them at a bad time when cash was tight or something, but regardless, I haven't made a purchase there since.

> sixnotfour:
> I,ll call him and see.

I am interested to hear if he's changed his policy. Actually, no I'm not - there are plenty of other places to buy better parts.

-Steve

Posted by: Britain Smith Dec 16 2004, 11:37 AM

The WEVO mounts are not solid mounts. They are semi-solid and just a step above the sport mounts. Here is what is listed on their website...

Posted by: Kerrys914 Dec 16 2004, 11:58 AM

Has there been any issues with the 8 conversion bars?


Attached image(s)

Posted by: ! Dec 16 2004, 12:03 PM

Not that I have heard or read about. Just the flimsy ill designed ones we have been discussing....

Posted by: nine14cats Dec 16 2004, 07:44 PM

I'd say the bars have a quality control problem from the looks of it. There seems to be too many issues with the bars, especially the early ones.

In my dealings with Jim Patrick, he has been very good to me, both on the phone and in business dealings. I must be the only person he has ever replaced a bar with. When I first put my 914 together for the track a few years ago, I bought a used Patrick bar that came with the core engine I bought. At the start of the project, I put the car all together and after a trip around the neighborhood I did notice a sag. The bar had cracked as in the pictures above.

I called Jim and talked to him about it. As I had bought the other parts of my conversion from him, he asked me to send a digital pic of the broken bar. After a few days he called me and offered to replace the bar with a new one. I took him up on it and actually sourced a second new bar from someone who had decided to give up on their project. I wanted the backup bar for the track.

I still have a wall mount PMS bar that I'm selling with my old race car, my new car has an AJ mount in it. Trekkor bought the "new" crossbar mount from me. It's only a year old.

Jim Patrick told me that the older designs of the bar had issues with the cracking but the new designs did not and were good for track use in cars with 3.2 liter motors and below (even for track). He recommended against me using the crossbar mount for my 3.6 liter project as he said that the torque from the larger displacement motors would fatigue the bar. He said a street application would be fine, but track only cars stress the components much more and he felt his bulkhead mount or the AJ mount was better for racing.

My motor was a 2.8L 10.5:1 compression race motor. I drove the car hard. I did not have any issues with the new crossbar mount.

For me, I've had nothing but good dealings with PMS.

Trekkor, as your motor is a smaller displacement motor, I think you'll be fine. Maybe give Jim Patrick a call.

Thanks,

Bill P.

Posted by: Kerrys914 Dec 17 2004, 07:00 AM

I called James about this and some other Q's. He said the bar has gone through 3 different designs/materials. Their were some failures of the first two designs but the latest design is much stronger.

James was very nice to deal with and didn't seem to be bothered by my 101 questions.

Cheers

Posted by: Root_Werks Dec 17 2004, 11:49 AM

How do you really feel Mike?

Posted by: pete-stevers Jan 14 2005, 03:02 PM

How do I get a hold of a Rich Jonhson mount, any available pics of his particular design, are his mounts tough enough to hold a 3.0
steve

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 14 2005, 03:20 PM

Email him and he can tell you how much and when and where. Or check with Pelican's site, our "sport mount" is either his kit or a very close facsimile.

--DD