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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Subaru EJ20 Headers?

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 17 2013, 08:09 AM

Who's using what?

I'm finding a TON of options on eBay that range from $125-$800. I have no clue what the real difference is though.

Equal Length Headers or Unequal Length Headers?

Am I looking for a new oil pan too, or will the stock (2003) work?

Differences in the Turbo Pipe?

I want to buy now...just don't want to get the wrong thing and regret it later when it doesn't fit with what I'm doing.

I realize that I'll be hunting for an exhaust too, and that it'll likely need to be a custom built pipe, but the rest of the stuff seems to be pretty important.

Posted by: DBCooper Oct 17 2013, 09:16 AM

Six or four? Turbo or naturally aspirated engine? You mention a turbo pipe, so I assume turbo? I have a WRX engine, used a stock STI exhaust with the WRX turbo, then a custom pipe from the turbo to the valance. Exhausts are kind of project-specific, and a lot of the automotive applications won't work on a mid-engined car. They aren't expensive, so I'd suggest you start out with stock, get the car done, then go back and change things you think need changing.

Pan depends on how your cradle positions the engine. If you need to put in a bump-out in the trunk to clearance the turbo (if your engine's a turbo) it should be the right level so you can use the stock pan. Guys who put the Subaru's into VW cars and busses don't have much wiggle room in positioning the engine, so the pan hangs down in those cars. In the 914 not so much.

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 17 2013, 09:45 AM

Gotcha.

This is an EJ20 Turbo 4. I'll be using the 5MT transmission, and Ian's cradle/mounts.

The headers on the car now were messed up and removed from the car already, so I don't have a "stock" set to go off of. I was planning on getting one of the "$119 ebay" deals to start with and then go from there when I had a little more knowledge.

Something like this...

http://r.ebay.com/hAyKby

Posted by: '73-914kid Oct 17 2013, 10:35 AM

Equal length if you can make it fit.. the sound of unequal length headers makes me gag everytime I hear it..

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 17 2013, 12:21 PM

That's what I was hoping you wouldn't say...those are the (way) more expensive ones. I'll look on a few of the WRX boards and see if I can find a used one.

Posted by: Rand Oct 17 2013, 12:25 PM

Has to be equal. Otherwise you fart like every other ffBBffBBt at the 7-11.

Posted by: skeates Oct 17 2013, 12:30 PM

Why not put together your own? I think that you can source the exhaust flanges at outfront motorsports and there are a bunch of sources for various bends and lengths of tubing/collectors. Tack them together and then take the assembly to have welded (or do it yourself if you are comfortable). I agree on the equal length thing. Makes a big difference, especially on 4 bangers. You should be able to find some header calculators online to give you a good estimate of lengths for the primaries. BTW, when people say "equal length" what they mean is "nearly equal length" (as in within an inch or so). It's more important for the flow path to be smooth than for the pipes to be exactly equal. I'm sure of the folks hear who have spent some time and $$$ developing headers for their day jobs have a lot more input to provide.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 17 2013, 12:56 PM

It would be so hard to due a truly equal length header. Nearly equal is good enough. I would source the flanges, and then order up the pipe. On mine I have ordered the flanges, I will grab 16 ga tube and mandrel bends and do it up. I am going to spend money on three items. The flanges and the collectors.

Narrowed it down to http://www.coneeng.com/index.html
or http://www.burnsstainless.com The Collector is the best investment. After that I plan on sending it our for ceramic coating. And a coating on the inside to keep the heat in. If your good enough, you could go straight to stainless, I would rather prototype in steel, and then make it better latter.

Don't forget you also ned a proper turbo flange. We had a guy in the area from the TDI crowds that I would have recommended to do your work, he was east of Lima. Welding and fab skill where top notch. He still does fab work, by day works for these guys,
Attached Image
by night he'll do side jobs, but he's in Richmond Michigan now.

And the inside, dudes got talent, my welds look like to his.

Posted by: effutuo101 Oct 17 2013, 01:30 PM

I found a Greddy exhaust on craigs list for 150, and just picked up the matching up pipe from a guy in San diego. I got the down pipe as well to cut up for the rest of my exhaust.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 17 2013, 01:43 PM

You could use http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-2005-2006-2007-2008-2009-2010-Subaru-Legacy-GT-Header-WRX-STI-Equal-Length-/300971554699?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item46134d778b&vxp=mtr , I am sure it is one nasty piece. fit and finish wise.

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 17 2013, 04:24 PM

Never thought of building it myself. That could actually work, and would let me move the turbo to a location that wouldn't make me cut up the trunk. Hmmm...

...now I just need to get my welder fixed.

Posted by: DBCooper Oct 17 2013, 04:36 PM

You need to be a little careful with aftermarket headers. First thing make sure there's meat in the flanges, some of the cheap ones use real thin stock that's guaranteed to warp. And some of them protrude down quite a bit further than the stock exhaust. I had one, but it was more trouble than it was worth to adapt it. My son has one, couldn't use it on his VW Bug because of clearance under the car, though it's more critical in a Bug. You might want to ask the vendors the measurement from the floor to the exhaust flange when the header's lying flat on the floor, just to be sure. And be a little skeptical of headers that don't have that expansion section between the sides. The engines expand with heat. There's a lot of pipe between the sides, it's true, but the OEM has a joint between them for a reason.

Posted by: d914 Oct 17 2013, 07:32 PM

I went with an outfront front mount header... Looking at the install 6-7 yrs after I designed it , I had room to leave in stock location.. Top of engine department looks pretty tight...

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 17 2013, 07:39 PM

I need to see what kind of clearance I have, and if the oil pan on my motor will let me install the ELH. If not, I have to look for an STI pan, and I think there's an additional pickup I'll need to put in there. Again, it all depends on the clearance.

I'm going to stick a pin in this one for a few weeks until I can get the engine a little closer to being in the car.

Posted by: McMark Oct 17 2013, 09:24 PM

Equal length headers are of less importance on a turbo setup. Cylinder scavenging due to pressure waves (i.e. tuned exhaust) is less effective on a system that has higher exhaust pressures. I would worry more about turbo location than exhaust system design myself.

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 18 2013, 07:25 AM

I found a guy about an hour south of me with a set of Perrin Equal Length headers, a Perrin Up-Pipe, and the oil-pan that will allow me to use the ELH.

I'm going to look and see, but I think I can get the whole mess for about $500. The headers go for $800, so I think I'll do pretty well, assuming they're in good shape. (Says they have about 10K on them.)

Posted by: effutuo101 Oct 18 2013, 10:27 AM

Nice!

Posted by: matthepcat Oct 18 2013, 10:41 AM

Having come from the Subaru tuner world, there is very little benefit to headers on an EJ20, unless you are running a much larger aftermarket turbo. Up-pipe, free flowing post turbo and TGV deletes along with tune will give you the most bang for $.

Pretty much all headers will warp and crack eventually.

Grimmspeed offers stock manifold porting and coating here: http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60_33_34_51&products_id=99

TGV delete too: http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60_33_34_51&products_id=35

Port & Polish turbo too: http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60_33_34_51&products_id=42

Save that money for some dyno time would be my suggestion. Good luck!

Posted by: effutuo101 Oct 18 2013, 11:59 AM

Matt! Hijack. Would love your feedback on best tuners in San Diego. I need a forest gump. 2.5 16V with single 20g turbo now.

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 18 2013, 12:24 PM

I spent quite a bit of time with Tyler Krzynowek of TKS Autos in Barberton, OH today. These guys KNOW Subies! (There were about a dozen STIs in there in various states of tuning/repair.)

I bought a Perrin ELH, Perrin Up-pipe, STI Oil Pan, and a Crucial Racing Divorced Setup 3" down-pipe. I was out the door for $650. The Headers, Up-Pipe, and the down-pipe are nearly new. (And would have cost me about 4X as much if I'd bought it all new.)

They also told me about a bunch of mods that were very "bang for buck" conscious, like the TGV delete. (Said it'd be about $150) They also have a lot of experience tuning the computers, and would do that, coupled with some dyno time after I get everything all together.

I'll upload pics when I get home tonight and get everything out of the trunk.

Posted by: effutuo101 Oct 18 2013, 02:24 PM

Tee hee
This thread is worthless without...

Posted by: jimkelly Oct 18 2013, 02:37 PM

do you have to pass emissions in OH ??

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 18 2013, 03:13 PM

Jim: Nope.

Chris: Give me an hour. I'm going to put them up on my Progress Thread.

Posted by: CptTripps Oct 18 2013, 05:00 PM

Here be da pics.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=217421&view=findpost&p=1942876

As soon as I get it the motor in the car, I'll get to the and flip that down-pipe the right direction.

I have a feeling I'll have about 4' of 3" pipe left over from it though.

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